Weird Dreams Mafia I [Gone]

[DragonEater70]

Doctor Drew
TemporalLich
Morning Tweet

Gimli
Enchant
imaginality
Flea The Magician

DragonEater70
MegAzumarill

KawaiiKame
Empathice
Save the Dragons
Kyoko Kirigiri

Botanical Rat (Radical Rat + biancospino)
Clone
Ranger

VOTE: Ranger Join me.

HURT: Doctor Drew, TemporalLich, Morning Tweet

I would actually like your reasoning for bottom 4 reads (I find Kyoko's position especially curious) and top 4 reads as well.
I believe you that you read 19 pages, but if there's no reasoning it does feel a bit scummy and weird.

[DragonEater70]

If you feel personally attacked I apologize, that was not my intention at all. I can see how 527 could be interpreted as that. I just woke up and was trying to be funny. My bad. I don’t want anyone to feel attacked and I’m if I made them feel that way I am sorry.

FWIW I didn't get offended but the post didn't make me want to townread you either.

[DragonEater70]

Lich, since you don't agree with me that DD is scummy, do you think we should try for a Porkens/Enchant wagon?
Also, what's your read on Enchant actually?

Doctor Drew is null leaning scummy to me... still see no scumreads from Doctor Drew and he even nullreads Porkens (which is not a scumread and doesn't do anything to shift my read either way)

Porkens is openwolfing (on Day 1, no less) so it should be trivial to speedwagon Porkens... 527 tells me Porkens has no intent on being towny this game whatsoever.

Enchant was scummy early D1 but 232 is when Enchant started having towny vibes... oh and 234 is a factor in me thinking Enchant could be town.

All in all, Enchant feels hard null to me right now.

pedit: Porkens might have a town mindset but openwolfing is openwolfing, there's no such thing as 0.5 openwolfing

The above is essentially just a color coded list of arbitrary assignment of reads with more words to distract from the fact it is what it is.

How am I “openwolfing?”

I skimmed the game, posted my gutty reads, and am engaging. How is that openwolfing?

I guess you scumread Ranger then?

Openwolfing is obviously scummy behavior, such as personally attacking the entire playerlist and mocking playstyles and making it clear you have no intentions of game solving or giving out reads. Seriously, 527 is openwolfing.

posts with nothing but quotes and buzzwords are simply low effort posts that anyone could make

pedit: when you make a low effort post then start personally attacking the entire playerlist I have nothing to believe other than openwolfing

I can't help but feel that Lich's interaction with Porkens here is in bad faith. I wanted to say that it doesn't matter because Lich retracts the push a bit later ("as for wanting to speedwagon Porkens... I did think that would be a good idea ... but now I don't think it would be a good idea since Porkens might have a town mindset"), but the don't really retract it, in fact they vote Porkens right after saying that Porkens might have a town mindset?
TL has definitely dropped position on my readlist and I would like to hear what they have to say about this and also what other people think about this interaction.

[Korina]

VC 1.14

Doctor Drew (5, E-4):

MegAzumarill, Botanical Rat, Clone, DragonEater70, Empathice

DragonEater70 (2):

Enchant, Doctor Drew

Porkens (2):

Save the Dragons, TemporalLich

Gimli (2):

Korina, Ranger

imaginality (1):

Gimli

TemporalLich (1):

imaginality

Botanical Rat (1):

Flea The Magician

Save The Dragons (1):

Morning Tweet

Ranger (1):

Porkens

Flea The Magician (0):

Enchant (0):

Morning Tweet (0):

Clone (0):

KawaiiKame (0):

MegAzumarill (0):

Empathice (0):

Kyoko Kirigiri (0):

Not Voting (2):

KawaiiKame, Kyoko Kirigiri

With

17

known votes, it takes

9

of them to achieve a majority.

Deadline is in:

(expired on 2023-03-22 16:20:00)

Moderator Notes:

- Please let me know if there are any errors in any VCs. These are hard to make, and I am prone to errors as a result.
- biancospino of Botanical Rat is V/LA until Monday.
- Porkens replaces Nono.

Nightmare

Kyoko Kirigi is voting for:

Kyoko Kirigiri (1), Flea the Magician (1)

Enchant is voting for:

Enchant (1)

MegAzumarill is voting for:

MegAzumarill (1)

imgainality is voting for:

imaginality (1), Morning Tweet (1), DragonEater70 (2), Enchant (2)

Save the Dragons is voting for:

Save the Dragons (3), Enchant (4), Gimli (3), Botanical Rat (3)

Ranger is voting for:

Save The Dragons (x), Doctor Drew (x), Botanical Rat (x), Empathice (x), TemporalLich (+), Ranger (+), DragonEater70 (+)

Doctor Drew is voting for:

Gimli (+), MegAzumarill (+), Botanical Rat (+)

KawaiiKame is voting for:

Botanical Rat (x), Empathice (x), Kyoko Kirigiri (+), Ranger (+), Save the Dragons (+), TemporalLich (+), KawaiiKame (x)

Flea The Magician is voting for:

Flea The Magician (x), Gimli (x), Save The Dragons (+), Kyoko Kirigiri (x), TemporalLich (+)

Morning Tweet is voting for:

TemporalLich, (x), Kyoko Kirigiri (x), Gimli (x), DragonEater70 (+), Doctor Drew (x)

TemporalLich is voting for:

Save the Dragons (x), KawaiiKame (x), Gimli (x), Ranger (x), Morning Tweet (+), DragonEater70 (+) || Doctor Drew (-)

Porkens is voting for:

Doctor Drew (+), TemporalLich (+), Morning Tweet (+)

---

Gimli is voting for:

Kyoko Kirigiri (+), Morning Tweet (+), DragonEater70 (+), TemporalLich (+), Gimli (+)

DragonEater70 is voting for:

TemporalLich (x), Kyoko Kirigiri (x), Morning Tweet (x), Gimli (+), DragoEater70 (x), Empathice (x), Ranger (x) || KawaiiKame (-)

Empathice is voting for:

Kyoko Kirigiri (+), imaginality (+), Morning Tweet (+), DragonEater70 (+), Botanical Rat (+), KawaiiKame (+), TemporalLich (+), Empathice (+)


Current tallies are:

Confirmed:

8 Votes:

TemporalLich, DragonEater70

7 Votes:

Gimli, Kyoko Kirigiri, Morning Tweet

6 Votes:

Kyoko Kirigiri, Botanical Rat

5 Votes:

Save The Dragons, Enchant,

4 Votes:

Ranger, Empathice

3 Votes:

Doctor Drew, KawaiiKame

2 Votes:

Flea the Magician, MegAzumarill

1 Vote:

imaginality

With

17

votes present, it takes

9

of them to ensure someone runs the nightmare.

At day end,

You may now reference my key, since I figured out how to make it work. A "+" means this player gained a vote, a "x" means this player remained neutral in number of votes, and a "-" means this player lost a vote. The double lines show who this player unvoted last. This effects VC 1.10 and onwards.

Pronoun Key

Korina - They/Them
Maruchan - She/Her
DragonEater70 - He/Him
Porkens - He/Him
Clone - He/Him
Save The Dragons - He/Him
Botanical Rat - They/Them || He/She
Radical Rat - They/Them
biancospino - He/She
Gimli - He/Him
Ranger - She/Her
Flea The Magician - Fae/Faer
KawaiiKame - No preference.
MegAzumarill - No preference.
Doctor Drew - He/Him
TemporalLich - No preference.
Morning Tweet - She/Her
Enchant - No preference.
Empathice - He/They
imaginality - He/They
Kyoko Kirigiri - She/Her

[TemporalLich]

I really want to see Porkens elaborate on the reads in 461, still want to keep the vote there for pressure reasons...

pressure votes are a thing that exist, and I still scumread Porkens as a strong scumread and a weak townread equal a weak scumread

imaginality seems to be lurking and Doctor Drew is still hard for me to sort and I still would say null leaning scum

[TemporalLich]

also I didn't drop position on anyone's lead rist yet

[Porkens]

Doctor Drew - On initial read, I felt this was town Drew. Scum Drew feels more manipulative in my experience. However, on reread iso, I do see a couple scum indicators (there's a very suspicious "lol" in 402)
TemporalLich - Like obviously trying to solve in a protown way from the very beginning.
Morning Tweet - Again vibes felt this was town MT. Scum MT has less to contirbute.

Gimli - Not sure why I thought Gimli was townlean. Entrance is super scummy. Later on seemed to be engaging but I can't say it's super duper town. Tinfoil hat says DragonEater asked specifically for my top four reads to make me enforce their scumpartner's townread.
Enchant
imaginality
Flea The Magician

DragonEater70
MegAzumarill

KawaiiKame
Empathice
Save the Dragons
Kyoko Kirigiri - grilling like making sandwiches. It just catches me wrong like presuming they can figure out the setup by asking questions.

Botanical Rat (Radical Rat + biancospino) - first few posts feel very VERY "pressure of speech" motivated (scum just talking to talk, "oh hey look at that duck" kinda stuff)
Clone - one post very scummy thats all
Ranger - already explained

I would actually like your reasoning for bottom 4 reads (I find Kyoko's position especially curious) and top 4 reads as well.
I believe you that you read 19 pages, but if there's no reasoning it does feel a bit scummy and weird.

To be honest this feels like a busywork assignment, butt sure. See above.

Look, it's all gut at this point I don't have solves or reasons beyond that. I read, I color coded, that's what you got. Now I'm under fire and feel like welp that's is what it is. Hope that helps.

[TemporalLich]

VOTE: Doctor Drew

okay Porkens definitely has a town mindset, retracting the scumread on Porkens now

I really like the elaboration of the lead rist... completely discredits my scumread for low effort posting and openwolfing to the point I townread Porkens now

[TemporalLich]

that vote is E-3 btw

[TemporalLich]

can't get past the thought that says "Doctor Drew could be a deepwolf", sorry

and imaginality could still be somehow towny, but the lack of activity is concerning and my PoE consists of weak scumreads

[Ranger]

Adding OMGUS to your list of crimes.

You're entitled to the accusation as your slot wasn't in the game and the very first contribution of your slot was accusing me so naturally my suspicion on you would come after.

Despite your entitlement, invoking it is still disingenuous. My scumread on you has nothing to do with your read on me. I see how your reads could develop from town.

My scumread on you has everything to do with your content, with a side of hypocrisy.

over defensive and over explanatory. my vote stays.

This is another instance of being disingenuous. I specifically marked 476 as a side-tangent: off-topic. Not game related. I had some musings I wanted to air out about my playstyle, but those thoughts were explicitly not game-related. I marked them as such.

Actually let me correct that, I'm scumleaning Porkens due to tone because honestly tone is more important than content for my reads.

This is a huge part of my scumread.

Porkens's content could be either alignment. Hypocrisy is (sadly) not

inherently

a scumtell. Being disingenuous is (sadly) not a scumtell. Having random takes which largely feel out of touch is not a scumtell. The main reason I feel Porkens is scum is he seems "off". His approach is heavyhanded, forced, and feels entirely artificial.

His content could come from either alignment.
The tone behind it makes me feel it's +scum.

{Doctor Drew, Botanical Rat, Empathice, TemporalLich, DragonEater70}
{KawaiiKame, Kyoko Kirigiri}
{Gimli, Flea The Magician}
{Save The Dragons}
{imaginality, Enchant}
{Clone}
{Morning Tweet, MegAzumarill}
{Porkens}

(More to say from this page, but deserves separate post.)

[Porkens]

I don't ~think~ I'm being disingenuous but I suppose it's a possibility.

[Ranger]

About Enchant.. that doesn't make sense. Why do you have him low? You didn't answer the question -- you just said "His contributions are suspect" and then asked me "Why wouldn't I have him so low". He's at the bottom of your reads, not the middle. I'm asking why you think he's the most suspect out of everyone

I don't see where the confusion is. Most of the players in the game look town. Enchant didn't. Enchant's content reminded me of Gnosia (I was under the impression he was scum there), Enchant's content felt forced, Enchant's contributions felt like scum. When not buying the meta defense and having good reason to suspect him, why wouldn't he be that low?

I dont understand -- if DragonEater was not under severe pressure (From my recollection he wasnt), why do you propose I was forcing a towncase on him?

You answered this yourself:

Spoiler: relevant

of course

if scum is smart they will focus attention on getting put in the townblo

c -- which could lessen the work they have to do "lining up suspects" --

they instead just need to play to "infiltrate the townblock" and just not be the least trustworthy

TBH putting the burden on scum to fool me into placing them into my trusted group, rather than taking a more hands-on, interrogation-style approach to search out suspects has always felt perfectly fine to me. I like playing this way. even moreso at the start of the game though

I think you're opening yourself to getting fooled in ways that you couldn't have before, since scum is now intentionally playing to get in your bloc in many cases, but im not sure it's necessarily making it harder for yourself. I think innocent people give off many signs that they're clueless and effortlessly, scum has to try pretty hard to mimic it. I just favour looking for genuine signals over fake ones

This is getting kind of wandered off. But your question definitely feels pertinent to the way i tend to play so theres my opinion

What's a good way to infiltrate the townbloc, Morning Tweet?

You've played a great deal of this game, and developed an entire style of scumplay that is influenced by your townplay. Scumplay as the dark mirror of townplay usually takes cues from the townplay. As scum, would you not want to mimic being "clueless", and try to appear genuine, and try to get placed into the trusted group?

What method would you use to accomplish this?

I posit: exactly what you've been doing.

Looking back at it, I was just responding to Drew's vote on Dragon which i disagreed with.

The level of defense for the event seemed out of proportion to me. You went into detail about the situation which wasn't worth having that much detail given. 392 felt out of place with the amount of focus placed on it.

[Ranger]

I don't ~think~ I'm being disingenuous but I suppose it's a possibility.

I literally laid out two examples.

Clinging to OMGUS when my read on you has nothing to do with your read on me is disingenuous. I

couldn't

have had a read on you prior to your posts because your slot had no posts. Your very first post was scumreading me.

Quoting a--spoiled, titled appropriately to mark its ooc nature--post and stating it was an overreaction/overdefensive when it was marked as not game related is explicitly disingenuous.

Beyond those, stating my style is easy for scum to do is also disingenuous, because as plenty have noted: I've a long track record establishing my playstyle.

[Ranger]

{Doctor Drew, Botanical Rat, Empathice, TemporalLich, DragonEater70}
{KawaiiKame, Kyoko Kirigiri, Gimli}
{Flea The Magician, Save The Dragons}
{imaginality, Enchant}
{Clone}
{Morning Tweet, MegAzumarill}
{Porkens}

p21.

[Ranger]

I agree that there's a bit too much emphasis on "solving" as town indicator. That's why I am not TRing some players who are "solving" but only people who actually sound townie.

Tangent: defining "solving" here is important to understand the difference.

I agree 'sounds solvey' is not a town indicator and shouldn't be used to clear someone. All players try to sound solvey as scum. In fact, sounding solvey is actually a scumtell.

I disagree

solving

isn't a town indicator. Solving shows signs demonstrating their solvey sounds are genuine.

Looking like they are solvey without solving is a scumtell.
Genuinely attempting to solve is a towntell.

Still, people sounding townie is a huge aspect of my reads as well--and can actually be a contributing factor in determining the difference between the two.

With that in mind, apt demonstration:

(snip)

This list start to finish tanks my townread because while I can see the thought behind it possibly being town, the nature of it feels very,

very

"off".

Putting Kyoko that high is fine; her company being MT and

imaginality

of all people is very suspect.

Lumping TemporalLich (one of the most efforting slots in the game who looks plenty town) in with Porkens (whose posts are filled with far less effort and is a main suspect) with the same exact justification (too wolf to be wolf) is a take I can't grasp.

All-in-all the reads in 526 can be genuine, but they feel fundamentally wrong.

[Porkens]

Doesn’t “disingenuous” refer to my intent?

[Ranger]

okay Porkens definitely has a town mindset,

Disagreed. Nothing in those given reasons rings as town-oriented solving. It looks more like faking a solvey mindset rather than having one.

{Doctor Drew, Botanical Rat, TemporalLich, DragonEater70}
{KawaiiKame, Kyoko Kirigiri, Gimli}
{Flea The Magician, Save The Dragons}
{Empathice}
{imaginality, Enchant}
{Clone}
{Morning Tweet, MegAzumarill}
{Porkens}

HURT: Doctor Drew, Botanical Rat, TemporalLich, DragonEater70, Ranger, Kyoko Kirigiri, Save The Dragons

[Ranger]

Doesn’t “disingenuous” refer to my intent?

Disingenuous = lack of sincerity (in the mafia context, usually in "lack of good faith in argument", "lack of sincere thought", etc.).
This is usually due to scum, but sadly not always.

Town players can either do these things despite their scum roots deliberately,
Or can do it through simple lack of honesty in their thoughts. It's poor wording, but think "lack of integrity in thought", where they are not approaching their thought process with critical thinking and are biased and arguing through the bias.

However, in this case it is indeed referring to my thoughts on your intent.

Town players can be disingenuous.
I feel like your intent came from scum.

VOTE: Porkens

[Porkens]

So you are just gut reading me in 1000 words, cool.

[TemporalLich]

there's not really a point on keeping a scumread you feel is discredited and wrong... it just leads to trouble and confirmation bias.

that being said, the push on Porkens for being disingenuous kinda feels like a weird push to me but the reasoning seems good

pedit: saying everyone voting you is gut reading you is a really weird push, Porkens

[Porkens]

Yo that’s where I’m at

[Porkens]

Also that’s an exaggeration I’m not saying everyone blah blah

[TemporalLich]

but you tried to say that Ranger's read on you is a gut read in an attempt to discredit that read...

that's very confrusing and my mind is a baked potato

[Porkens]

Ok but like ranger isnt “everyone?”