Mini 2308 | Blood over Utopia | Utopia fell.

[Merlyn]

I actually can't think of anything else that I find mechanically suboptimal but the idea of a no lim for no reason. What's given you the impression there are lots of people I could be pushing for mech but aren't?

I remember you were pushing for increasing the budget pretty hard and several ppl disagreed with that

Pushing hard is a bit of stretch I think. I'm not even voting it, it's my second choice.

[Merlyn]

oh hello pagetop

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Mb you spent more time talking about it than neighborhood watch

[Merlyn]

wow was not expecting to be such a big topic of discussion this game
Deal with the Devil - why get into an argument with marci over her push on me? what read did you get on marci from that interaction?

I was trying to figure out what it is about your entrance to the game that made you so scummy to them.

I was feeling there vagueness around answering it was telling.

-Drew

Hello, little devils, I had a question for you too around this higher up on the page

[RCEnigma]

Hi cakes, big fan. What do you think about the devil hydra so far? Outside of even the direct stuff dealing with you/Marci.

[Merlyn]

Mb you spent more time talking about it than neighborhood watch

Yeah that's true enough. I think I'm the only one voting it though so the discussion around trading post which actually had traction seemed more important.

[Deal With The Devil]

*Answer your question at least from Marci's perspective

I'm kinda eh on whether a "self-conscious" tell is AI - I feel like it'd vary from person to person more than anything - but saying Cakez is experienced doesn't really make sense unless you're saying he's too experienced to drop a tell like that

I am just saying it is AI, unless you think Cakez is a noob......then maybe I get the read.

But it is a super weak reason to scum read someone, especially to the point where you are looking for their buddy(s).

And then when getting some pressure from me, start acting dismissive.

Pre Edit: Marci, calling someones in game play isn't mean.....just wait until you see what I am capable of lol.

But I just don't understand how you can make, what seems to me, a solid scum read based off that one Cakez post unless you have some solid meta read on them.

-Drew

Mod

we are voting Snivy as well.....though I think I misspelled their name lol.....so VOTE: Snivy

Fixed

So you pushed Marcistar pretty hard there for a minute. This post doesn't feel like you're sold on her responses, but I notice you've kept the snivy vote. What's the reasoning?

Snivy was the first person to make me say 'oh so they are scum'.

Marci I don't like either(nothing personal, you seem very pleasant as a person lol), consider my vote on them in spirit.

-Drew

[SirCakez]

VOTE: high flying dwarf
who is this player?

Has no one else pinged you yet?

Not really, I feel the mech talk has been mostly AI and that's been most of the game so far, there's been a little scum hunting but nothing has pinged me

[SirCakez]

Mostly NAI*

[meowmeow]

i like meowmeow's entrance, first posts I've read this game that really made me feel town

could you elaborate on what made you townread me?

[marcistar]

*Answer your question at least from Marci's perspective

I'm kinda eh on whether a "self-conscious" tell is AI - I feel like it'd vary from person to person more than anything - but saying Cakez is experienced doesn't really make sense unless you're saying he's too experienced to drop a tell like that

I am just saying it is AI, unless you think Cakez is a noob......then maybe I get the read.

But it is a super weak reason to scum read someone, especially to the point where you are looking for their buddy(s).

And then when getting some pressure from me, start acting dismissive.

Pre Edit: Marci, calling someones in game play isn't mean.....just wait until you see what I am capable of lol.

But I just don't understand how you can make, what seems to me, a solid scum read based off that one Cakez post unless you have some solid meta read on them.

-Drew

Mod

we are voting Snivy as well.....though I think I misspelled their name lol.....so VOTE: Snivy

Fixed

So you pushed Marcistar pretty hard there for a minute. This post doesn't feel like you're sold on her responses, but I notice you've kept the snivy vote. What's the reasoning?

Snivy was the first person to make me say 'oh so they are scum'.

Marci I don't like either(nothing personal, you seem very pleasant as a person lol), consider my vote on them in spirit.

-Drew

vote me? what are you so scared of???? or oops maybe you dont actually think im scum! you're so so confident but OOPS!!! WHERES THE VOTE HONEY XX

who knows maybe itll really set things into full motion
or maybe you'll get me to crumble under the pressure!!! i know you want that!!! whats the downsides since im cleary scummy

dont be a scaredy cat!!

i dont agree with the snivy read yet

[meowmeow]

basically, i think we want {bureau of elections or guildhall} and then {neighbourhood watch or intelligentia}

HURT: Bureau of Elections

I think what you said about the developments makes sense, but what do you think of the argument that neighborhood watch and intelligentia can be better served later in the game?

i don't think that's something we should be worrying about too much. we can use the abilities twice, and in the later game we will hopefully have much more powerful roles we can use, rather than worrying about mafia's daytalk, keeping in mind we can only use two abilities per day. i actually think that ability might be more useful in the early game, since mafia probably wouldn't feel as comfortable in the game state and their knowledge of mechanics? i can see the argument for using intelligentia that way, since there are flipless mechanics in the game, but personally i would want to never use the assassinate ability and use autopsy aggressively if/when the mafia use the janitor ability they probably do have. i think especially if we get to a situation where multiple people have died, and we're not even certain what the scum count was to start with, the information offered by intelligentia will not be that useful in determining the alignments of dead players.

not a fan of csf's 120 - it feels a bit like, overly cautious? i mean, of course most reads this early are going to be a little premature, and 'town feels' isn't that strong of a statement anyway. i feel like it's self-conscious of giving out tmi townreads too easily, which is something scum do sometimes

no, I'm just aware that I can get confbiased on even early townleans sometimes, and on review, Aureal hadn't done anything except mech talk that could easily come from scum as well up to that point

i'm aware this could come from town you genuinely feeling this way, but i think scum are generally more likely to do stuff like review and see if they made a townread that's too easy immediately after making the read, whereas town are more likely to just list who they had town feels on and roll with it because feels aren't usually, like, super justified

regardless i'd be interested if you have any examples of like, being cautious about early townleans as town in the past? or if you don't have that, when you've confbiased on an incorrect townlean early. i don't want to take too much of your time, so just going off memory is fine

[Deal With The Devil]

Uhh....because I think Snivy is scummier than you.

We are a hydra, but still only have one vote.

This is quite a performance you are putting on though, generally the Oscar season is later in the year though, the judges may miss this totally not over the top performance lol.

-Drew

[marcistar]

how is snivy scummy

and thank you i really try to convey my emotions well to my audience. i'll give you my autograph when game ends so you can have bragging rights.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

regardless i'd be interested if you have any examples of like, being cautious about early townleans as town in the past? or if you don't have that, when you've confbiased on an incorrect townlean early. i don't want to take too much of your time, so just going off memory is fine

My most recent towngame is linked here in which I only had one townread early (on someone who has a really polarized meta) and deliberately withheld other townreads

Before that there was Hollow Knight Mafia where I let Gimli coast off of an early towny feelings even though he did nothing towny the rest of day 1

[Deal With The Devil]

how is snivy scummy

and thank you i really try to convey my emotions well to my audience. i'll give you my autograph when game ends so you can have bragging rights.

Their really really wanting to push Sacrifice through today pinged me hard, and even when I tried to explain why it isn't a good idea for today, still want it pushed through.

Like I said to Merlyn, first time in the game I was like 'oh, so they are scum', and ya it may not ping others the way it pings me(just like some people disagree on my read of you), but I still stand by it.....even if I can't get a lim on either of you I don't want things that I perceived as scummy go by the wayside.

-Drew

[meowmeow]

My most recent towngame is linked here in which I only had one townread early (on someone who has a really polarized meta) and deliberately withheld other townreads

i think this context makes it less scummy, given you seemed a little bit cautious to give townreads (eg with saying jingle gave you town feelings early but want to be cautious of them), but i certainly wouldn't say you only had one townread early; or if that's true, your posting didn't seem to reflect that, with additional townreads given to adorable and wgeurts unless i'm misreading? you did also give five unmitigated townreads at least fairly early, although this was page 24 so i can certainly see why you wouldn't compare it to your behaviour on like page 6 or whatever it was

i'd also like to ask, given your merlyn push, do you think advocating for no elim is equivalent to a mechanical disagreement on something like the development abilities? additionally, do you think RCE was actually advocating for a no elim in those posts?

[marcistar]

how is snivy scummy

and thank you i really try to convey my emotions well to my audience. i'll give you my autograph when game ends so you can have bragging rights.

Their really really wanting to push Sacrifice through today pinged me hard, and even when I tried to explain why it isn't a good idea for today, still want it pushed through.

Like I said to Merlyn, first time in the game I was like 'oh, so they are scum', and ya it may not ping others the way it pings me(just like some people disagree on my read of you), but I still stand by it.....even if I can't get a lim on either of you I don't want things that I perceived as scummy go by the wayside.

-Drew

i dont even think he was pushing it that hard it just felt like he wanted to talk about the possibility.

[meowmeow]

@drew, you made that assertion before, that snivy was desperate to push through the sacrifice

i think sac could be worth it since we could theoretically find a mafia member with it

its like a loyal vig

My issue with Sacrifice today is that, if I am reading the rules correctly, everyone who votes for it gets to decide who the target is. Here on D1 reads are just starting to develop so it is much easier, imo, for scum to make their way into the council who decides the Sacrifice.

I feel like that is another way to save for a later day when reads are developed more.

-Drew

i think sac could be worth it since we could theoretically find a mafia member with it

its like a loyal vig

My issue with Sacrifice today is that, if I am reading the rules correctly, everyone who votes for it gets to decide who the target is. Here on D1 reads are just starting to develop so it is much easier, imo, for scum to make their way into the council who decides the Sacrifice.

I feel like that is another way to save for a later day when reads are developed more.

-Drew

we could also hold a psuedo-vote now for the sac target (also depending on the flip)

My point is sacrifice can just be the regular lim but we get paid for it.

But ehh I’m not gonna argue more for it

HURT: trading post

i think sac could be worth it since we could theoretically find a mafia member with it

its like a loyal vig

My issue with Sacrifice today is that, if I am reading the rules correctly, everyone who votes for it gets to decide who the target is. Here on D1 reads are just starting to develop so it is much easier, imo, for scum to make their way into the council who decides the Sacrifice.

I feel like that is another way to save for a later day when reads are developed more.

-Drew

we could also hold a psuedo-vote now for the sac target (also depending on the flip)

You are a very eager beaver to push through Sacrifice aren't you?

-Drew

based on this interaction, can you elaborate? i think the suggestion from him - to use the vig as a double elimination - would be a fairly reasonable way to use the sacrifice ability, and would counteract the issue you brought up (that mafia would control the council). it seems like a fairly normal discussion on mechanics, so i'm not sure what your thought process is here

[marcistar]

HURT: appointed jury

[Deal With The Devil]

My main issue is that when explaining that, especially when reads are just starting to develop, it is much easier on D1 than compared to later in the game for scum to sneak into the council.....they still wanted to push it for D1. Ya they aren't screaming from the mountain tops that is must go through, but they still want it to happen.

And again, it was at that point I was like the simplest explanation is that they are scum.

They even tried to placate my initial blow back on it, not arguing the merits of if it is a good idea or not, just trying to placate my concerns to make sure I will come around and agree to it.

Manipulative is not generally a town trait.

-Drew

[marcistar]

what are you responding too please i thouht we made it clear i only have 1 braincell

[Cat Scratch Fever]

but i certainly wouldn't say you only had one townread early; or if that's true, your posting didn't seem to reflect that, with additional townreads given to adorable and wgeurts unless i'm misreading?

I don't think those were that early. The game was smaller and there was like no mech discussion so it moved out of RVS much faster than this one

[meowmeow]

i mean, i don't agree with that at all, but i can kind of track the thought process so i'm not really concerned about it now

pedit: that's regarding drew

[Cat Scratch Fever]

i'd also like to ask, given your merlyn push, do you think advocating for no elim is equivalent to a mechanical disagreement on something like the development abilities? additionally, do you think RCE was actually advocating for a no elim in those posts?

RC wasn't actually advocating for a no lim though? I think he wanted to use Sacrifice in place of the regular elimination, which is along the lines of project discussion. I think she kind of went "he's asking for no lim and that's odd," because typically asking for no lim is anti town, but I'm not sure why she thought that was scummy in this case exactly

and I guess part of the answer is that Merlyn just doesn't care as much about the other project mech stuff that was happening today, which is fair. But it seemed like jumping on RCE for saying "no lim" when that wasn't really happening