Micro 1089: the coalition, again [game over]

[fireisredsir]

sorry for continuing to talk about myself but maybe it will explain my mindset

part of my issue is that im still not really sure which direction is right

and it's hard for me to then start writing out and casing like "ok here are all these scummy things about this person" because im pretty sure if i did that i would get convinced that person of scum, whichever one it was. i found that happening when i was revisiting my reasons for why bulge/brassherald was scum. but then this morning i was looking at why hellbooks makes sense as scum and i found myself getting convinced of that

so like that's the benefit to me of voting first and either having the game end or having the answer confirmed. because then i can actually show whoever is town all the reasons that do make sense and be able to show them confidently and know they're correct

i just spent like two weeks in a game doing this kind of elo back and forth trying to find the solve and i got it wrong a bunch of times but i did eventually get it right, and then wasn't confident enough to push it through. it did kinda hurt though to several times have that confident solve and case it and then find out it was wrong

[fireisredsir]

you know, the truth is i kinda don't. i do find 2857 very towny. i also find the follow up of "why isn't skitter answering me" very anti-aligned (though i could construe a thing where skitt ignores her to look anti-partnered? idk). i think if hellbooks is scum she would probably be doing more to push the gamestate in her preferred direction, i think if she's scum here she has a strange amount of sereneness to not fret that people will not worried why she is still alive or why she isn't posting more content. i guess i see that hellbooks could be scum, but i don't see many reasons in the thread to believe that it is the case.

i also found 2857 very towny and a lot of my immediate reaction was like. why would she do this as scum. what is this accomplishing as a partner with skitter

and i think that really that's the thing that makes hellbooks hard to read is that so many of the things she does are because they're fun and because they make people laugh and because they make her laugh and they make the thread an enjoyable place to be. and that's her wincon regardless of alignment. so like the standard mindset of "well this post doesn't make sense as x alignment therefore she is y alignment" doesn't really work as well

as for the more specific points:

1) i don't really see the "skitter didn't read my post" as anti-aligned because there isn't really any pressure placed. it's said in a pretty joking playful way of like "oops you forgot to respond!" (3205, 3210) and she doesn't like push skitter any harder to actually get answers to her questions. i would actually say it feels more aligned than non-aligned. i think skitter would be more likely to feel pressure from a town player to respond to their questions even if there wasn't a lot of active pressure placed

2) she did generally push things in a pro-scum direction during coalition phase, where she kept her vote on skitter inexplicably but also was healing her and pushing for coalitions that had skitter and also not pushing for coalitions that had herself in. as town she's generally pretty against being on wagons and like, contributing to killing people, and she's does a lot more of that here (in what i would argue is a pro-scum way)

3) i think i agree that she is generally serene about things but also see point 1 in 277. i know from the time you entered she seemed like unassailable town but i don't think that there ever really was a point where i would expect her to fret about people worrying she's still alive. i think for the majority of the game it would have been a pretty big surprise if she got nightkilled, and until isis got un-townspewed i wouldn't have even thought it likely at all last night

[fireisredsir]

To the person who said that bulge could be scum with anybody (i think fire) i would say sure but also its not as if his iso is an utter information wasteland in fact we have 1) 3-4 scum reads and an ordered list of townreads and 2) his lack of this hot new sorting strategy that has taken the site by storm that people are calling "thread control"

not to get all wuthering heights about it but the bulge's singular and glaring absence from all of this has somehow captivates my mind as if his ghostly absence was speaking louder than any other player in the game. That is all to say ive considered healing him without any attached explanation like maybe 15+ times

this is towny though right

idk i feel like whenever hellbooks posts content it's just towny. or maybe i'm just captivated by the performance

yeah i think a lot of her content is towny. it is definitely performance a bit but it could be as either alignment

i think if you read the traitor game though there's some of this similar energy of coming at the game from strange contrarian angles and getting townread for it

[fireisredsir]

one point of doubt i keep running into is like the bits where she keeps trying to kind of banter with skitter (and skitter is not really having it) like with the hades and persephone stuff. it does feel kinda unpartnered and too on the nose of an interaction when i read it in isolation

but also it would look weird if there was like one specific slot that she didn't banter at all with and that slot ended up flipping scum so maybe it was just like trying to fulfill a quota of that type of interaction

[fireisredsir]

she did generally push things in a pro-scum direction during coalition phase, where she kept her vote on skitter inexplicably but also was healing her and pushing for coalitions that had skitter and also not pushing for coalitions that had herself in.

oops i lied she wasn't actually healing like anybody

the post i was thinking of was 1442

and also 1802 where she doesn't express an issue with skitter being in the coal that ari proposed

and the one coal that she kinda said she was okay with was (her tris bulge sheep ari) which she acknowledged was never getting accepted. and that does feel like kinda what scum outside the coalition is supposed to do. have opinions that nobody will actually follow you on

i guess maybe my original point wasn't super accurate now that ive more thoroughly fact checked but it was what it felt like from memory. and i still think she at least definitely didn't play it in a way that pushed for town coalitions, and the absence of that helps scum

[fireisredsir]

the early part was mostly seeing how things developed when hellbooks was a lot more townread and skitter wasn't. and the general flow of things does make me feel like that points towards hellbooks

the later part was me mostly looking at how hellbooks responded to people suggesting that she be in the coal (mostly tris pushing for that, and then ari asking) and the response was kind of a reluctant "yeah i guess so" (2102 - 2117)

as well as seeing how skitter responded to ari's suggestion of putting bulge in and then insta yeeting him. i think there is probably something alignmenty that can be read out of that but i am not sure

[fireisredsir]

i guess maybe my original point wasn't super accurate now that ive more thoroughly fact checked but it was what it felt like from memory. and i still think she at least definitely didn't play it in a way that pushed for town coalitions, and the absence of that helps scum

right but is town!hellbooks ever actually going to do this

esp once it looked like skitt was a lock

possibly yeah i don't see why not

i think in her two recent towngames she did push for her gamestate view to be heard more than she did here

[fireisredsir]

oh lmao well done

[fireisredsir]

ok that point rescinded idk

[fireisredsir]

idk. im town. whoever else is town should just like find me as town. that seems like the easiest path forward here to me

[fireisredsir]

i thought you wanted to vote first though?

id rather vote first than get voted but id rather you vote each other than either of those options

ill probably get it wrong either way but i think the third option is highest win%, and getting voted is lowest win%

[fireisredsir]

it's like mechanically optimal to force scum to vote first. so if you think im scum then i should be the one to vote

but fmpov either of you voting each other is more optimal than me voting because then the cross is guaranteed to have scum

whereas if one of you votes me then you might be town and we lose

[fireisredsir]

obviously the same applies to each of you though from your own perspective if town so like

its easiest for everyone if scum just decides they want to force a specific gamestate and takes the plunge and votes

[fireisredsir]

so yea if scum could go ahead and do that, that would also be fine

[fireisredsir]

i keep hitting this wall where i want to agree with the points that infinity is making about hellbooks being towny and im like "damn maybe they're right" but then the alternative is that they are scum and its like ok there is no secret third option for me to vote here (as much as i would like to) so why would scum infinity be trying to convince me that hellbooks is town

[fireisredsir]

why not

[fireisredsir]

i guess that actually does make a lot of sense hm

[fireisredsir]

i think it just means that despite me not believing that i do, i maybe do have at least a little bit of the perspective of thinking im the main character and that im the one who scum will feel the need to pocket here

[fireisredsir]

ive been training my omgus muscles this game to try to get better at it and im almost ready to pull out the "if you don't even think it's possible that you can find me as town here then you're scum"

[fireisredsir]

in hollow knight mafia elo i spent a lot of time solving and reading the game and reading past meta and trying to figure out which answer made the most sense and then i finally as a last ditch effort decided to try the old chat mafia trick of real time interaction and reading gimli's reactions to what i was saying

and i thought he was scum off it and i very nearly threw the rest of my solving out the window and voted him

i would have been correct to do so but then the moment passed and i let it go

[fireisredsir]

now im wondering if infinity noticing that hellbooks likes explaining jokes and then asking her to explain house of leaves post was a pocket attempt

[fireisredsir]

the "oh wait what" post and on day 3 you felt a bit "ok lets get this over with" and now you feel demoralized.

i don't get what about these you think are more likely to come from scum than town

[fireisredsir]

skitt also just kept pushing for you to not be in the coalition

including this as a reason feels more like piling on things that sound good as a reason for me to be scum in isolation rather than something that actually convinces you

because she pushed more for hellbooks to not be in the coalition than me so there's not really any reason this should be a part of your thought process

[fireisredsir]

there are a bunch of things you've posted this day phase that would make me feel bad for voting you. and i don't think that's what town!you actually wants so unless you're coming off way different than you intend i don't think you'd actually be posting those things as town

genuinely very sorry if they had that effect

i really don't like when people do that because i am very effected by those type of posts, so i definitely wouldn't want to do that to anyone else. ill try to do more to avoid things that are in that realm

if you're town i don't think you should feel bad for voting me

[fireisredsir]

pedit: i don't think that is factually true and i talked about this

you talked about how there was one post where she had hellbooks at the top of her list of people she didn't want in and then i talked about how there were a bunch of posts were she was much more willing to consider putting me in and then you didn't really engage with that and kept the same opinion i think

[fireisredsir]

i don't think you'd be demoralized here as town because you said you weren't demoralized. and unless you're confident i'm town you shouldn't be that demoralized as town here

i don't think my levels of demoralization have much to do with this specific game was what i was trying to get at

[fireisredsir]

i guess the difference here is early vs late in the day

i think skitter was honest when she made the post about how ideal scum strategy is to try to both get in and then only once things are coalescing do you try to aim for 1 in 1 out

pushing your partner out from the beginning is a lot riskier

[fireisredsir]

early in the day she was scumreading me and pushing me out, and townreading hellbooks

late in the day when things actually started coalescing there were points also where she was considering putting me in and she wasn't really ever entertaining the possibility of putting hellbooks in

[fireisredsir]

hm yeah i just think that skitt was pretty widely townread from pretty early but that's something i have to reread

she wasn't really and part of the reason she started getting townread was because she was content with everyone leaving her out

[fireisredsir]

she did townread me like in rvs but that dropped off before she got townread herself

[fireisredsir]

but i think she was happy with hellbooks in the coal at most point lmk if you want quotes

i am reading and i can't find a point where she wants both herself and hellbooks in the coal so yes i guess i would like quotes if you have that

around the time that she starts getting put in coals is around the time that her read on hellbooks drops and she pushes her out

[fireisredsir]

yeah

i think that comes at the point where she is just kinda starting to get some townreads

[fireisredsir]

im gonna track peoples progressions it'll take a minute tho

[fireisredsir]

it's confirmed in hellbooks/bulge/skitter

while tracking progressions i found this joke post about how scum didn't post on page 82 and its literally correct

[fireisredsir]

isis

- initial position is skitter is hard to read so leave her out
- 214 skitter is probably town for not looking like she has an agenda
- 357 she probably wants skitter in coal
- 570 heals skitter
- from this point on she pretty much just solidly townreads skitter
- 1380 says she'll proxy vote skitter
- 1461 is notable in that it convinced sheep and kinda signifies skitter moving into towncore

sheep

- 629 first mention of skitter is putting her in a coalition
- 658 "skitter is

fine

but thats a low quality read"
- 874 skitter is fine ish, good vibes, doesn't feel like she has a scum agenda
- 936 puts her in coal again as his 5th slot
- 1262 skitter is a little bit towny for not giving sheep an easy townread that he probably doesn't deserve
- 1476 skitter paranoia quashed
- his position on skitter doesn't really change from here on
- agrees with tris/skitter/shea towncore in 2234

ari

- 348 agrees with me and wants skitter in the fun car
- 367 makes a coal without skitter
- 539 still wants skitter out
- 794 says a coalition with skitter in it will win
- 1394 first time voting for a coalition with skitter in it
- i should note that ari doesn't really directly state a read on skitter much at all during this time. she tends to have more rigid worldviews where for a while she thought the team was me/shea, so therefore everyone else is town. but somewhere in there she does seem to transition from wanting skitter out to being fine with her in
- 1797 has a readlist with skitter/hellbooks/bulge at the bottom. ouch. gj ari. but she's trying to work with consensus and that involves putting skitter in
- 1954 paranoid of skitter a bit
- 2180 bulge is outed scum and makes sense as partnered with shea/sheep/fire. maybe skitter but she thinks skitter is town

shea

- 84 rvs read of skitter scum
- 476 votes a coalition with skitter in it
- 519 hurts skitter, doesn't like an interaction they had
- 535 scum team is skitter and ari
- 547 explains why
- 1049 says a coalition without skitter wins
- 1137 argues with skitter a bit but doesn't necessarily seem to have her as lockscum
- 1189 doesn't have a good reason to scumread skitter but disagrees with her worldview
- 1358 considers a coalition that has skitter in it (that ari proposed)
- 1498 still has something stuck in his craw about skitter
- 1687 iffy on skitter but is considering voting a coalition with her in it
- 1861 heals skitter
- from here to end of phase he is pretty much pushing coalitions that have skitter in them

fire

- 110 skitter is neutral
- 347 i tell ari i want skitter in the fun car
- 470 don't actively scumread skitter but considering worlds where she might be content being left out because she's scum with someone who's solidly in
- 554 skitter posting is fine rn
- 920 agree with sheep that skitter feels a little towny due to being agendaless
- 921 and 923 i reference some posts that ping me as town for skitter
- btw for reference most of this time i am holding on to a heal list of shea/tris/hellbooks
- 1344 hey i also agreed with the ari coal that had skitter in it
- 1683 votes for a coalition with skitter in it
- 1827 long rambly thought dump on skitter. still think she feels agendaless but not that confident
- 2159 here i start formalizing the coalition core of shea/tris/skitter. i think around here marks the point where skitter is in basically every coal

hellbooks

- 154 agrees with a post from skitter
- 386 begins firing the laser at skitter
- 1700 philosophical manifesto in response to ari asking her if she likes a coalition that includes skitter. i think the conclusion is "not really and we should put you in it"
- 1802 readlist that has skitter in the lower portion
- 1820 doomed to always be a little bit suspicious of skitter
- 2056 when skitter asks why she's being lasered she says it's like a magnum opus piece. and also later in the post says that she's fine with being in the fun car or with being put in the coal and then limmed

The Bulge/brassherald

- 317 skitter isn't touching his coalition. votes one without her
- 345 says skitter is omgus him when she says she won't put him in hers either
- 2340 brass subs in
- 2358 recognizes the consensus of tris/shea/skitter as the coalition core
- he then only votes for ones with those people in them. not a lot of time to develop a read so not much there

[fireisredsir]

omg i forgot tris hold on sorry tris

[fireisredsir]

tris

- 111 heals skitter as the 4th into her coal

- 381 hurts everyone except isis

- 553 heals skitter again

- 1725 says she townreads skitter
- from here only votes coals with skitter in them and doesn't say much else about here. seems on board with the consensus of skitter core

[fireisredsir]

ok so to kind of condense these into a general timeline i think we have:

posts about 1-500: most people are around neutral on skitter, and general consensus i think seems to be that we should leave her out because she's a strong player who isn't obvtown yet. skitter herself seems on board with this. isis does townread skitter, hellbooks and bulge seem to scumread skitter but without much thread influence

posts about 500-900ish: skitter trajectory tends to improve for most people, except shea who thinks she's scum with ari. but gradually light townreads seem to be developing. isis townread still going strong. reasoning is often in the realm of her not pushing herself into the coalition and not seeming like she's trying to win the game for scum

posts about 900-1300ish: townreads solidify a little more, with multiple people talking about how she feels agendaless. fire and sheep go from more neutral reads to townleans, shea loses his scumread

posts about 1300-1800ish: skitter townreads solidify further, especially with fire/ari/shea/sheep all being on board with a skitter coalition. isis and others are casing skitter as town and she is moving from "slightly weak borderline town" in the consensus into "stronger town"

posts about 1800-2200: coalition starts to coalesce around a tris/shea/skitter towncore. there's not a lot of protest to these names and most people tend to agree with them being in

[fireisredsir]

i will also as a very unhelpful editors note say that both when i was tracking the hellbooks skitter progression and the bulge skitter progression i was like "wow this looks extremely scummy"

[fireisredsir]

ok so i was mostly trying to be as objective as possible so that this is like a matter of public record and can be analyzed from anyone's perspective to find the scum

but i will add a little bit of a so that it isn't entirely iioa

which is that fmpov i think when looking at skitter's iso given this context it does make a little more sense to me that she would be okay with being left out at the start and recognizing that she is a consensus scumread if her partner is hellbooks rather than bulge. it would be pretty bold to be like "yeah sure ari throw me in the fun car with bulge". that is and has been and continues to be a point of contention for me this whole game as ive considered whether bulge slot is scum, and the explanation for me is that if it is then she just knew we weren't actually going to coalesce any time soon

i do think it would be pretty dangerous for her to try to pull that off though, because mindsets can form quickly and be hard to shift -- me, isis, ari all got a few early scumreads and then never really fully shook them. skitter going for the "well im fine with this" approach and just hoping people townread it is i guess hard to picture but also like again what else is she gonna do. if people don't townread her and her partner is afk then all she can really do is sit back and wait and then maybe later if she still hasn't gotten townreads she forces her way in

i dunno

it doesn't seem like the skitter approach though to just from the very beginning be against her partner being in. it's a lot easier to start with a townread and then gradually downgrade it if needed than it is to scumread them and then have to awkwardly prop them up if you need to later

[fireisredsir]

and like the timing does make sense i think. she's noticing the trend of things and is gathering more townreads while hellbooks is starting to lose the initial ones she had. the hades and persephone metaphor is maybe more apt for the way in which hellbooks was down in the trenches of getting viberead which is a pretty quick burst of towniness that eventually fades, while skitter stuck to the other side of the game in the more analytical stuff, not forcing anything too hard, which will probably get her more and more townread over time

and then at a certain point somewhere in the middle hellbooks is happy to tag out and let skitter take her place in the coalition as they high five when they meet at the intersecting point of their oppositely sloped trajectories in thread consensus view

[fireisredsir]

i think im doomed to always be a little suspicious of skitter because she so often fits the model of what i think is the archetypal scum: someone who has a firm grasp of the game but isnt its top contributor and is also generally making measured posts and cultivating trust. you could even say that its an rvs read that has nevertheless persisted into the current day. i kind of dont know how to go about finding things to townread about her and i felt this way in the magical first datisi game too

this post also made me go back to compare and i think the way she handled skitter in referenced game is like wildly different and a lot more hands on:

Spoiler:

viewtopic.php?t=90886&user_select%5B%5D=34369

when i saw the skitter vote i was like oh yea baby. that like makes a beautiful and wonderous amount of sense for you to do right now and i like it. on the other hand, the baltar spoiler is kind of word for word some shit i would say as scum to put forth the image of having a forward thinking and productively minded thought process

Idk why she forces herself to have a sky scumread as town ...

thats like what im doing

also i think you should be allowed to townread people who arent solving

if you were scum skitter and seeing that the ausuka campaign was being met with a ton of resistance and also were finding your own personal standing in jeopardy from pushing it, what would you do? im genuinely curious. my first thought would be "well wouldnt scum want to try and wind this down and look for an easier miselim?" but maybe people dont actually think like that. maybe people die on hills more often than i think, instead of intentionally executing scum actions that benefit their own, maybe they do their best to just fully adopt a town mindset, with all its associated baggage, and counterproductive results. what narrative makes more sense here to you all?

sorry sorry. i just got embarrassed. like i know skitter is one of those Great Players and maybe shes like reading that and being like wtf are you saying lol do you even play this game more than once a year

osuka wagon response is the tiniest bit town to me but maybe im too easily swayed by things as that
definitely down for a expeditious meuh pivot
honestly is tris not literally coasting scum
also do the skitter antis still feel that way and just moved on to bigger priorities

skitz i think youre misinterpreting my posts somehow?

@hellbooks can you pick three (3) of your spiciest reads and elaborate a little more?
Not super in depth like a couple of sentences each?

so i already kind of explained why i put osuka and ausuka up there (flawed as my trust may be). i also mentioned that i was genuinely convinced by the excitement and conviction that meuh had

skygazer i think has been posting shallowly and taking paths of least resistance and not really feeling concerned or paranoid or second guessing but then theres also like a vibe i get that shes coasting on tone which makes me think theres a vested interest in maintaining a good position

tris im actually thinking about putting back at null or even town but at the time it felt like she was very passively sitting with her confusion, saying she didnt want to read or wasnt motivated to do anything, and then was suddenly spurred into action by the prospect of a wagon. but now that i put that impression together i think its kind of towny

i dont think fire has done anything that made me think "oh that was so towny" and i think that theyve been very careful while also kind of trying to maintain control over the direction of the game and i think the sort of consistent action of trying to understand everything and little details seems like it could be like scum whos just doing busy work

maybe id update my reads to be

[empty]
ausuka, osuka, meuh
tris (lol SORRY AUSUKA ABOUT YOUR ANTIVOTE)
skitter
fire
skygazer
[empty]

i think i sort of committed to the bit so hard that i dont actually know where to place baltar in this list anymore but i originally had him in the fire tier and maybe id want to put him below even. and i have legit no idea about skitter tbh. as i mentioned before there is no one here that i am even fifty per cent sure is scum.

i dont think skitter is towny just for trying to solve the game i dont think people are towny just for trying to solve the game

Final answer reads adjusted for inflation just me changing my mind on some stuff

ausuka, meuh
tris
skygazer
osuka
baltar
skitter, fire

Did i get every one this time

what is scummy about having disjointed reads progression?

as promise heres my hot girl success wall, provided FREE of charge to all of you, NO ADS, NO SUBSCRIPTION FEE, and NO BULLSHIT. feel free to read only the sections you want its no skin off my back. they should have a special achievement award for someone if they make both the worst and best post in a game cuz this ones gonna be a banger

returning to the crime scene of my mind and attempting to reconstruct the events that led to me flip flopping on several of my reads

skyg - i went back to ctrl+f her iso for what she had said about another person (i think vp balts) and saw a few towny things. one thing that stuck out to me was skygazer feeling a baseline reluctance to vote me bc we're friends and then overcoming that bc of an excess of scumminess from yours truly. i think that shows somewhat of a pure attitude towards limming as less of a self-serving, strategic activity and more of like a societal obligation aka more of a towny mindset psychologically speaking. maybe i overcorrected a little bit in the town direction and shes more of a conflicted read

osuka - if i was scum and in a secure position amidst this chaos i would absolutely consider vanishing here or at least feel that strong temptation. actually surprised that no one rly called it out but maybe he said he's vla and i missed it or something. in contrast to ausuka who i think has continued to townpost. and also became less convinced that some of the reactions that i originally thought were towny were not easily fakeable

skitter - i think theres a careful slowrolly type of way she's trying to slowly gain ground on voting me. its like 1) votes me. 2) "oh tbh im kinda coming around to flipping hellbooks here" like well YEA.... your voting me ! ! i actually prefer the optics of someone like meuh whos just kind of voting my ass & also looking elsewhere and working on other ideas. something methodical about it how everything i do she takes it into her atelier and constructs a beautiful reason for her to dislike it. but maybe thats just how she is when she drives through a tunnel. i dont rly know how to reliably make that distinction. what actually made me think of skitter as sus more than that, is that i concluded that unlike most other people in this game there's really no post that ive seen where i thought "if she was scum, making this post would be counterproductive for her"

why i made that horrible all caps post aka the second worst post of all time

basically i had a horrible vision of getting limmed in elo against someone with a more comprehensive and rational presence. like i thought there was literally no way i would make it out of an elo situation. and i thought getting limmed on D1 and letting people maybe build some momentum off of the varied approaches / sheeps / angles that people had on my wagon would be a very low-risk sacrifice with some legit upside. as i said, it wasnt angst or anything. im actually having a ton of fun in this game making my little posts. but i also dont mind going out like a G on D1 i dont have any pride about things like that. also as i said i didnt really have a confident alternative ready to propose to be like "well dont vote me vote THIS person!" prior to the most recent pages of fairly contentful and solvatious activity there seemed to be a whole bunch of posts from people that were like "i have no effing idea what to do about this game" and that was the game state i was still working off of when doing this rumination

live slug reaction to the baltar wall

skitz - i dont have a problem with someone townreading skitz and dont consider my thoughts on her to be compelling enough to dissuade someone from doing so, but i read vp baltars reasons and think... this is all stuff scum does all the time? imo? and i think the thing that i have a problem with is maybe the lack of what i consider to be a prerequisite amount of paranoia

tris - agree that i dont have a problem with the sheeping but i did think it was a little interesting that blatant opportunism is excusable if tris but not skygazer. I KNOW, there are other factors but i was just like.... oh just bc skygazer is voting YOU? dont worry i still think thats valid ; )

fire - the fact that you say that fires superpower is being a very thorough thinker & you dont see that here... but why is that something fire wouldnt be able to reproduce as scum? do you think fire as scum has a history of failing to think thru posts? i guess thats the one thing about your case that stood out to me. i think the osuka placeholder push also doesnt really fit in with the grand narrative of meuhltar fencesitting that youre crafting and i dont actually see why your portrait of fire as a scum would do that

tragically i think this post did more harm than good for my view of you albeit by a slight margin -- i cant help but compare it to something like the grand meuh post (which again might just be a false case that happened to hit all the right beats for me, and im literally sorry for bringing it up bc i know you said you didnt like it) and find the general ideas to be somewhat belabored by comparison

finally on to the fun stuff... !

note to all skimmers below this point is where the post ACTUALLY starts getting good!

avi tier list. whoever said all the avis were great was right

osuka - i get the sinking feeling that im supposed to know what this is. is it like a... like a electric roggenrola or something? if i actually got my shit together and made your gtkas there would be a question where you could answer about this. but i like it. A

baltar - avatars that are just some dude i think have actually come around to becoming underrated in this day and age. this was a factor in why im currently rockin the sandler. A+

tris - one important thing when it comes to avatars is that they dont exist in a vacuum but exist symbiotically with the connotations of the poster. if i saw this avi for the first time i would be like i have no idea who this is. but when i see this avi now im like this is absolutely tris. S

skygazer - i like the placid discomfort of the stars' expressions and of course any avatar that synergizes with a username should be acknowledged. A+

meuh - this seems to be an art of some kind of knight or other armored professional. i like her calm but resolute expression. i get the sense that maybe people would find this avatar trustworthy when it came to first impressions in a mafia game. i would hope that mine achieves the opposite. A

ausuka - no notes. this avatar cant be reduced to its qualities, it simply is. S+

fireisredsir - much like their discord avi (which is one of my favorites) this persons gaze holds a tired tenderness. while they seem to be drinking it also seems to remind me fondly of a pose that i often make in general with my fist, just to cover the bottom half of my face (when chewing for example). i have to admit to a flawed bias which is that i dont prefer it when the avatars are too far off of a square resolution. S-

skitter - im a big fan of tigers. i was born in the year of the tiger. an old avi of mine has a similar abstractish style of an animal and i feel some solidarity off of that as well. A

met gala review

was bad bunnys suit the BEST LOOKING ensemble of the event, no, but it sure did live in my head with the least rent. jenna ortega -- i wish my self of 5 yrs ago going as wednesday addams to a gothtober party couldve done it like you. dwyane wade's coat was an ABSOLUTE SLAY. mary j blige, something abt the swoop and the high slit... like yes. give me the composition, and you know what the sheer and blue rose pattern is extra but it works for me. stephanie hsu's collar worked outlandishly perfectly. but in the end... none did it quite like ausuka. i award her Winner of the Night

hockey preds. fun fact datisi promised that if i get all these right i'll get a 1-shot day vig called "the onetimer"

1. i dont particularly like the panthers and i think if i predicted against the leafs id feel double shame if they ended up winning, so i'll say

leafs in 6

even though they're already down a game. cause if it goes to 7 then florida might be able to harness that grimy stinkboy protagonist energy again

2. im rooting for the devils but for some reason i dont have as much shame choosing against them. maybe bc i dont rly have much investment in this series. i could not name a single cane aside from sebastian aho and then im really just thinking about the isles sebastian aho. but lets just say

canes in 6

3. the rational selection is the stars especially since they're up 1 and pavelski's back with a vengence but fuck it im on the bandwagon. the kraken are like that miracle that happens 0-1 times in a persons school life where people from all different friend groups get paired up for a group project but you lowkey end up clicking for real. i have literally never heard of any of these guys except for beniers but the

kraken in 7

bc i dont want this ride to be over yet. 7 in OT even. calling my shot. and you know what that guy bjorkstrand gets the OT winner lets go.

4. it would be funny if leon the professional continued to come up with seven hundred goals a game, truly exhausting everybody, and the oilies still couldnt follow through with it. which is exactly what happened today. im rooting for them to win bc im lowkey a darnell nurse stan even though everyone hates him, and also for my boy nugentious hopkinson, but i need to balance out the kraken prediction by selecting evil so i'll say

knights in 5

for the spicy oilies collapse mwahahaha

favorite datisi vc

the wheat to bread "is it worth it" in 1.07 is definitely a winner.
i like the "this dog sucks" energy of 1.09.
maybe it's recency bias, but the 1.18 might be my favorite. +1 for spiderman 2. +1 for men kissing. +1 for factual information about movie trivia. its got everything

Ill self vote to avoid a no elim, thats not against wincon right

Also finding my self thinking skitters deadline scramble is town

like yea she's clearly struggling to come up with a confident read but the struggle is also like very evident in thread. you can see her trying to find that read

[fireisredsir]

caveats that it's a different setup where you actually are blasting right away and hellbooks was actually under some lim pressure there which may have pushed out some additional opinions (although she's said a couple times that she doesn't think pressure really brings anything more out of here)

but like it is still a micro and all of those posts were on day 1

[fireisredsir]

there's just so much more sorting of people in that game but directly comparing how she treats skitter i think makes the difference especially noticeable

[fireisredsir]

i also currently think that but probably as soon as hellbooks comes back and posts again ill be like "wait no nvm"

[fireisredsir]

rats make me crazy

[fireisredsir]

probably as soon as hellbooks comes back and posts again ill be like "wait no nvm"

maybe not

[fireisredsir]

im patient

we have like a week until deadline still somehow

[fireisredsir]

i certainly wouldn't expect to

[fireisredsir]

me listening to new dj sabrina the teenage dj

[fireisredsir]

1

[fireisredsir]

oh no

ive been bamboozled

[fireisredsir]

i have pretty much just been waiting to see if hellbooks has any thoughts or like response to latest stuff

but i think the way that (or lack thereof) has developed has only increased my scumread so far

it feels more like she's holding off until she has the time/motivation/energy to gather the requisite effort needed to Make Content when that isn't really what i need i was just hoping to see some sort of hipfire reactions or like any explanation of current solving thought process

and that pattern of approach does feel a lot more like a scum one

the plausible town explanation i guess would be that she doesn't feel confident enough in any of her thoughts to just openly spew them in the limited time she's been here. but like. if you are town you still gotta share them anyway

[fireisredsir]

i definitely had the thought to come in here today and say something completely inane in three words or less and then be like "alright ive been prohibited from saying anymore" and i guess even now im resisting the impulse to delete all this and do that still
but then i guess id have to come back and say something on saturday so might as well get it all out now

ngl this is kind of what i was expecting for a while but i appreciate busting out all the chops

[fireisredsir]

anyway this seems like such an important infinity is town thing that it surprises me a little that it didnt seem to factor into the conversaation already

but idk i think its way more likely that the timing of fire becoming more confident about me being scum is aligning with this pivot from infinity because they want infinity to vote me and now that infinity has kind of expressed that inclination any sort of active supicion about inifintiy themselves has kind of evaporated
but idk maybe thats because fire is kind of done assembling thoughts about infinity and doesnt need to express any additional paranoia because all of the posts from 5 or whatever pages ago still stand as their beliefs and so dont need to be updated
whereas i guess their paranoia about me continues to evolve

there's been a lot of things that have reinforced my thinking of infinity town especially with regards to how they've played this day phase, and i think them not taking a potential win/easier path to victory that they could have had is part of that

ive mentioned that a few times but like. there isn't really any point in me casing why confidence is growing for me in infinity town. if im right then there's nobody that i need to convince of that being true

i guess this goes back to the "maybe i should play elos like im scum" idea because there is actually some value in being performative and posting things just for the sake of getting people to townread you. it's just not something im particularly motivated to do unless someone asks me to explain a thought process somewhere

[fireisredsir]

i guess there isnt any way i can verify this to you but my personal explanation for why i havent been posting is because one of the biggest motivators for me to post has been the stress of the prospect of coming in here and having to make some deciding vote and wanting to fully prepare and organize myself for that so that no one comes in during post game like "i cant believe we left the game decider to that bozo" and now that its looking less likely that i'll have to do that my body has kind of stopped producing the requisite adrenaline for me to cook up more silly words
but here i am nevertheless persisting

i mean i still think that forcing your scumread to vote first is optimal and so i still would like for you to vote first so feel free to restore that motivating element

[fireisredsir]

인연

i think it's both very cool and also a little tragic that there are words like this that express an idea where if you try to translate it into english it's missing some. well. je ne sais quoi. and it feels like even if you get close it doesn't quite capture it

it's like even having those words unlocked in your vocabulary helps you conceptualize ideas that you didn't fully appreciate as their own distinct thing before, and helps you see the world a little differently. but so much of that potential is locked away in other languages and we probably won't ever get to experience that understanding and new way of viewing things, and that's the tragic part i guess. it makes me want to learn every language and maybe even pay attention in french class

anyway cool word thanks

[fireisredsir]

ok i didnt actually have that many of those thoughts. just like vaguely gesturing at all of the people who are nightkilled and limmed and being like "ok then what the fuck was i doing with all that"
i guess fire is going to come up with some scenario in which scum hellbooks was like "ok yeah my best bet is to take these two people into the F3 and not literally anyone else"

i don't get how "two people who are treating you as pretty clear and are also currently trajectorying towards 1v1ing each other" is not like literally the best possible f3

and i can't think of any nightkill that you could have made at any point that would be better strategically than the ones that happened

they all seem pretty optimal to me

[fireisredsir]

if it is hellbooks scum then i rescind my immediate reaction of calling isis a bad kill it's actually like the only kill you can make there

[fireisredsir]

yeah the only alternative is to try to pin a kill on isis but you or me dying would be strange enough that i think people would want to really reassess and figure out why that happened

its also just like unnecessarily risky, idk why you would since you are also basically clearing her

[fireisredsir]

i don't know if i necessarily have an internal thought language but i do have different thought processes and different levels of clarity when i am specifically putting things into words vs not

i usually find though that i am better able to recognize and understand and communicate my thoughts when im writing them down

but speaking is very different and things definitely don't translate there

[fireisredsir]

i am unsure if there's a question/prompting a response for me in there

[fireisredsir]

if you have specific questions then i don't mind answering but otherwise not really

[fireisredsir]

im not feeling very spewy rn

[fireisredsir]

i read two scumgames and you are i think showing a lot more depth of thought and analysis and proactivity than the sample i had in those games. like, way way more

but also i had a feeling that the games i read weren't like showing the full extent of your scumrange so i wouldn't really say that i think you're out of what you're capable of (also partly bc most of the late game situations where I've gotten it wrong have been bc i wrongly decided someone was out of their scumrange and so i am trying not to do that anymore)

so like if there's any question of scumrange it would be that my expectation is that even if you are able to draw up extra reserves of towny energy, you probably aren't as likely to do it unless you need to

and i think there's been places in this game where i don't think you would have needed to

your process overall has just seemed towny and solvy to me. i think if i erased bulge and brassherald from my memory then it would be a really easy choice for me here. but it is still true that if i revisit like reasons i had for them being scummy then it brings back the fear that i am being snowed by poppy

in current moment i have sort of made peace with pushing those fears away which more means that im not like actively rereading and revisiting those thoughts right now although if hellbooks ends up shaking me up a bit and returning some doubts then I might do so in the future. i see that as unlikely right now because if she's scum then she's more likely to be aiming for convincing you than me. which seems like what she's done. i mostly wavered earlier when it felt like she ran counter to that for a moment

[fireisredsir]

enjoyment: 5.9 (4.4+/5)
catfit: 0.8
unfamiliarity: 1.0

i realized after making this post that it would have been funnier (given preceding context) to put it in a spoiler tag for "spoiler for hellbooks' walrus score"

Spoiler: spoiler for hellbooks' walrus score

luckily i was off by 0.1 enjoyment points so it wasn't a spoiler

[fireisredsir]

i did like the drums they just didn't really feel like a core component of it

in terms of catfit point per drum though they scored really well

[fireisredsir]

sooooooo

[fireisredsir]

i think at some point im just gonna vote but apparently the hanging sword of that is less motivating than telling hellbooks to be the deciding vote

at least purportedly

i guess thats coming from presented hellbooks town mindset and probably the vote threat would actually be the thing that is more threatening to scum hellbooks although i still think scum hellbooks would prefer to hold out and stall and avoid being confirmed in someone's eyes so maybe not

this is kind of a

"what are you gonna do, vote me?" - person who would prefer to get voted

situation

[fireisredsir]

did you know i still exist

of course

i could never forget that

[fireisredsir]

also im taking the wholly unreasonable liberty of interpreting the attached flavor as specifically targeted at me right now at 3am

so thanks for that. appreciated

[fireisredsir]

not bad so far! how are you

[fireisredsir]

(taking notes) ok so i only have to be at least 41% towny

[fireisredsir]

yeah lmao i sure can

[fireisredsir]

viewtopic.php?t=88615

im amumu

[fireisredsir]

honestly for it being a 17 page game where nobody was talking it's not as bad as i remembered

but still pretty bad

[fireisredsir]

˶^◞ ﻌ ◟^˵

[fireisredsir]

can you link your worst scumgame if you have one

curious why you asked and if you learned anything

[fireisredsir]

i didn't think very heavily about this game for like the last two days

and now ive just come back with fresh perspective and reread some places to see if i felt stirrings of doubt from looking at previous reasons i had for bulge/brass/infinity being scum + the isos

and they didn't really do much for me

which was kinda unexpected actually bc last time i tried that exercise not that long ago i was finding myself getting more convinced in that direction

but yeah i don't think im changing my mind at this point

im prob just gonna vote soon unless someone yells at me and tells me not to but idk who would even do that bc the only scenario where that would happen is if town hellbooks thinks it's infinity and i don't think either part of that is the world we live in, and also hellbooks would just vote infinity instead of yelling at me

[fireisredsir]

i don't really get the sense that hellbooks is going to vote here and id rather not leave it for the last minute so ill do it in like the morning or something

[fireisredsir]

infinity are you around

[fireisredsir]

the quiet made me a little nervous although i think that's unreasonable

whats on your mind

[fireisredsir]

about the game

[fireisredsir]

do you think town wins here

[fireisredsir]

hmmm

alright good enough

VOTE: hellbooks

sorry if wrong and v well played to infinity

[fireisredsir]

oh good

[fireisredsir]

i was spam refreshing lol

[fireisredsir]

aaaaaaa okay we can win we can win

let me know if you have like any questions or anything

[fireisredsir]

ngl that was a very difficult vote to make because i would feel so dumb if bulge was scum and won

and i wouldn't feel bad at all if hellbooks was scum and won

[fireisredsir]

i realized we're also in library dimension elo

and the results will be the same

[fireisredsir]

last coalition i didn't make it into the coalition and it was kinda lonely and dark and cold out there

fire if neither of us make it into the coalition i am going to literally generate such an overflowing excess of private inside jokes that all the coalition folks are gonna be sit there in silence and be like "oh..... turns out this wasnt the fun car." they're all gonna be too awks to pass the aux. and i bet they wont even be playing dethy in there.

i really hope you're mafia so that it is actually a good idea for people to exclude us from the coalition bc now im excited to not be in it

hellbooks it was a wonderful fun car thank you, and im glad that it was in fact win con advancing

[fireisredsir]

my page 5 reads are also better than my page 100 reads tbh so i don't really agree that making them is ridiculous

hellbooks is actually town. this sucks now our outside the coalition fun car is suboptimal for winning the game

connecting these two posts with a for when im making seven paragraph long walls on page 100 begging you to lim me

i think this iso is actually like 3x funnier knowing she's scum

how does she do it

it's amazing

[fireisredsir]

"want it more" idk where the term came from

but its like how much willingness you have to put effort into the thread basically

[fireisredsir]

You should approach all of my posts with a "death of the author" attitude (by which i mean you should read them and think "wow the author of this post should get limmed")

i think this one is funny either way but i laughed more when reading it just now than i did previously so we're counting it towards scum sorry

[fireisredsir]

was kind of looking back on my iso to go stand and look at my jokes with arms akimbo like a dad looking at his backyard or smth and its a pretty light and fun read which is so awesome for if someone is like "ughhhh ok so i have to go and look at people's multipage isos" in elo and im part of people

same goes for this one

[fireisredsir]

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why does each letter have its own color tag

how did you do this

i thought there were just like 8 or 9 different colors in there

[fireisredsir]

patient high school tutor voice: ok so we have two people who said they'd kill hellbooks. meanwhile hellbooks would kill isis. and hellbooks is still alive, while isis is not. so what does that mean?

you should reread this post and fire's lack of direct response to it (i will not be placing this into either category)

what's funny is my internal response to that, which didn't pass the bar to make it onto the page, was "this means that scum lie" bc i thought you were probably town at the time

[fireisredsir]

I'm very susceptible to adopting fun and/or cool words or phrases into my regular rotation

[fireisredsir]

also hi

[fireisredsir]

if we go 24 more pages we can be the longest micro

we're 2nd right now

[fireisredsir]

i kinda want to read it, it looks like a fun plist

viewtopic.php?t=83833

[fireisredsir]

wow its just like in the movies

[fireisredsir]

this is like at the end of wuthering heights where

Spoiler:

they finally escape the mansion and stumble out into the light and the fog of confusion lifts and there's a crowd of friends from their past welcoming them home and everyone is smiling and laughing but then there's a moment where our 3 heroes make eye contact with each other amidst the bustle of the crowd and a silent understanding passes between them that they are forever changed. they nod and then part ways

(im only a quarter of the way through and this is definitely not how it ends)

[fireisredsir]

pagetop we did it ggwp

[fireisredsir]

congratulations to the town for winning Micro 1089: the coalition, again!

this post reading as saying that town won again is a reference to us also winning in the library dimension

[fireisredsir]

fire why were you townposting so much even though you were scum

kinda counterintuitive but some people townread you more for townposting than they do for scumclaiming

[fireisredsir]

sorry for killing you sheep :<

[fireisredsir]

it was really impressive that infinity was able to turn that slot around. replacement was definitely unlucky for scum

i don't think i would have made it to finding hellbooks without infinity's play making me doubt it was them

and then finding the right answer too !

[fireisredsir]

this was my second favorite post i made this game so far

me only figuring out how dethy works in elo means that i only just now connected the dots on understanding that post

[fireisredsir]

ive considered just going "fuck it, fire is town" VOTE: Infinity so many times as the ultimate fire pocket strategy but it seems so ridiculous to do that when theres still an above 50 chance that infinity votes fire firest

gonna hate it when this turns out to be the only winning move for me and i realize it too late just like killing infinity or whatever

i would have been a bit shaken by it at least. i think it depends on the timing but it had a chance of working. it's maybe riskier tho, and the path you took did have a chance of working too, so idk what's best

[fireisredsir]

seeing the saga of wim gradually unfold made me smile realizing why you made that post at the end

while responding to the question i was like "this oddly somehow

feels

like a joke bc i feel like she must know what wim is by now, but ill respond normally just in case it isn't one"