Open 893 - 09:12 - Postgame

[Mizuki]

VOTE: CrabApple

Crabs should not be apples as well.

[Mizuki]

What if the apple belongs to the crab?

Are apples healthy for crabs? Research to be done.

[Mizuki]

Thomith did the research, clearly invested in the health of crabs, locktown.

Only 7 more people to sort.

[Mizuki]

I didn't really familiarize myself with the setup beyond win-rate and the basics of it. PR's getting voted off early though is a fairly common occurrence in my experience since people playing PR's tend to get angrier faster especially when they feel their getting voted by townies, which can lead to self-voting or simply being taken as being overly defensive.

I did briefly consider if hypoclaiming (everyone picks a town role off the clock and then claims a target/result at the beginning of D2, the actual town PR's could claim their real results and then if they die) would be useful here, and I think it might be unless the clock specifically landed on 5. Would require everyone to be on board with it, though.

VOTE: Puffalicious Back to E-2, 30 gave me some vibes.

I thought I had a foolproof strategy of differant themes and only being logged in as crab on my laptop and only being logged in as element's on my phone

The trick is to bookmark the threads you're in only on one account and only access that thread through bookmarks. That's how I do it.

[Mizuki]

All of that seems pretty par for the course for Town PR play that I've seen. They get the uber special role and really, really want to use it so they don't claim it (in hopes that maf won't target them), get angry really easily, self-vote/self-hammer, etc. Bad town-fake claims are also par for the course tbh.

If the clock lands on 5 our TPR's are Jailkeeper/Babysitter, both of which are not investigative roles so hypoclaiming doesn't really bear much fruit. JK can only really play as an investigative if there's 1 scum left IIRC.

[Mizuki]

Crabapples, while not very edible by themselves, make a delicious jam and I am no sad that my MIL stopped making it.

@Mizuki

What about 30 do you not like enough to vote? At best, it seems like WIFOM to me.

It's just vibes, it came off as a very "bored" response to the RVS wagon forming on them, and in these early stages of the games that's what I find to be Maf-indicative since I don't think a lot of people enjoy playing Maf on this site, at least not as much as they enjoy playing Town, for various reasons. I could obviously be totally reading the tone wrong or reading too much into it, but I also don't think theres much harm in keeping the hydra at E-2 for right now.

[Mizuki]

That is a point against it but also Maf already have a 50/50 shot of guessing the exact setup since they can infer it from their PR.

[Mizuki]

It's just vibes, it came off as a very "bored" response to the RVS wagon forming on them, and in these early stages of the games that's what I find to be Maf-indicative since I don't think a lot of people enjoy playing Maf on this site, at least not as much as they enjoy playing Town, for various reasons. I could obviously be totally reading the tone wrong or reading too much into it, but I also don't think theres much harm in keeping the hydra at E-2 for right now.

Interesting take, I'll have to try and pay attention to that. I know personally even when I'm town I don't hard defend myself unless I'm fairly certain the person pushing me is scum, because I feel it's more helpful to wincon to continue scumhunting.

The difference is just in tone for me. Town also tend to ignore speedwagons in RVS but usually they have a more playful demeanor about it because at the point of RVS most people are in the kind of "I'm joshing around with my friends/fellow townies" attitude. I thought Puff's response came off as very cookie-cutter and disinterested.

It's not a silver bullet to finding scum because it can be due to OGI factors and what not, but it's the method I use during the very early stages.

That is a point against it but also Maf already have a 50/50 shot of guessing the exact setup since they can infer it from their PR.

I don't think that's true. Due to how the clock could work, I think there would be 3 different combinations of Town PR's that it could be depending on the Mafia's PR. Even more if the Mafia have a Rolecop.

Brain not working right, you're correct. For some reason I was only thinking about if the clock landed on the Maf PR specficially.

I think Kyouko's idea would probably work best, but I won't push for it super hard if people aren't on board with it.

[Mizuki]

I have a really hard time reading setup speculation without my eye's glazing over, but I think I ultimately followed it. I do think I generally get a town read on ssbm because of it though. Maybe also Mizuki.

UNVOTE:

May I ask why this makes you town read ssbm/Mizuki? Was it the way they went about it/responded to it, or just the fact they were trying to figure out how the setup could work/how hypoclaiming could get it to work in our favour?

Yeah the latter, it just seemed like a townie mindset to approach it from. I didn't feel it was just setup talk, but how town could maximize the use of it.

This is the view I have about Kyouko's posting as well.

I'm also genuinely liking Thomith's posting here, I think his general scrutiny of other's people's townleans/vibes comes from a townie wary of scum buddying in the early game.

[Mizuki]

Crab has not posted anything past their alt-slip, so their very much a null at this point.

If I can ask, what exactly do you hope to gain from questioning people's RVS votes?

[Mizuki]

Also, my vote was RVS but ftr I don’t think shadowwez has done much AI

That's sort of my problem with that post. 3 of those players voted there haven't done really anything AI so far. 1 is V/LA. Both me and Cele have moved our votes.

I really want Puff to answer my question because every time I read that post it comes off as performative. There's a gut feeling in my brain that says I'm simply assuming the worst out of it but it's the only vibe I really get there.

[Mizuki]

Why are so many people waiting to see the response to post 30?
Feels like an excuse not to play
VOTE: Thomith

Where are you getting the impression that people have just stopped playing over one post? This is incredibly reductive.

[Mizuki]

Though there are statistical reasons for me to doubt they're mafia, especially since I'm not sure it makes sense for Kyouko to be Puff's partner. Unless she has a history of bussing? I'll research that sometime today or tomorrow. I'll definitely have more free time tomorrow.

Is this post trying to imply you have a scumread on Kyouko? Why?

[Mizuki]

"Why are

so many people waiting

to see the response to post 30?
"Based on

Thomith's comment

about their vote"

These two statements do not align. This is also, again, incredibly reductive of Thomith's posting so far.

[Mizuki]

Crabapples, while not very edible by themselves, make a delicious jam and I am no sad that my MIL stopped making it.

@Mizuki

What about 30 do you not like enough to vote? At best, it seems like WIFOM to me.

It's just vibes, it came off as a very "bored" response to the RVS wagon forming on them, and in these early stages of the games that's what I find to be Maf-indicative since I don't think a lot of people enjoy playing Maf on this site, at least not as much as they enjoy playing Town, for various reasons. I could obviously be totally reading the tone wrong or reading too much into it, but I also don't think theres much harm in keeping the hydra at E-2 for right now.

I don't understand how did #30 came off bored to you and you will have to elaborate on that. From my pov he gave reads and I don't see how is giving reads boring to you. I also found it funny how gob outed an alt and I would have assumed that should have been funny for other players. Also, you did not do a follow up post to gobs post where he said he was testing something.

- A

I'm not sure what there is to misunderstand, I said in another post that the response came off as disinterested. It's a very emotionless response, and while there's a lot of things I could've chalked it up to I ultimately found it better to keep my vote on your hydra.

That said:

VOTE: Cobblerfone

112 comes off as a player trying to sound analytical but the actual content is a very nothing-burger argument, and that type of play is more likely to come from scum here.

[Mizuki]

I'm admittedly sus of Gamma atm because she's active in another game but not here but that last post from Cobb hits all kinds of alarm bells. I'm keeping my vote on Cobb.

[Mizuki]

The way Cobb phrases things in this incredibly non-committal way (e.g "Though there are statistical reasons for me to doubt they're mafia, especially since I'm not sure it makes sense for Kyouko to be Puff's partner. Unless she has a history of bussing?") but their tone is that of someone decently confident in themselves ("I think the wagon has produced adequate info.", their assertions on the associatives of a potential Puff flip) really give me vibes of Maf keeping their options open and not wanting to commit to a hard stance.

[Mizuki]

-SNIP-

I think that when sorting a null slot it is beneficial to look at their reactions and feelings towards votes against them. Yes I had little to no reason posted in my vote, but it instead of reacting to it directly you might think, when asking why Celebloki TRs me, that you would mention my vote on him as it pertains to my slot. It's not necessary to mention but feels relevant to consider.

Not sure I'm wrapping my head correctly around this paragraph. Are you saying you think Puff's reaction to your vote against them was townie or that you're still null on Puff?

[Mizuki]

Gamma if you were a dayvig who would you shoot here and why?

[Mizuki]

@Kyouko Ah, alright, the wording of the sentences was a bit weird so I was having trouble understanding what you were saying.

[Mizuki]

With the way Puff's responding, I'm sticking with my vote for now. Assuming the head that posted 30 is the one posting recently, they've had ample time to respond to the questioning. Though they might be trying to do something.

Though there are statistical reasons for me to doubt they're mafia, especially since I'm not sure it makes sense for Kyouko to be Puff's partner. Unless she has a history of bussing? I'll research that sometime today or tomorrow. I'll definitely have more free time tomorrow.

Why is kyouko scum individually?

That's part of the reason I unvoted Puff. I have a townread on Kyouko and if she's town she and I are both more likely to have randomly voted for town than for mafia. 2/9 * 2/9 = 4/81 chance of mafia

Why are you misrepresenting my reads?

Kyouko wasn't voting randomly though, she had a read (based on a faulty premise but a read nonetheless) and voted. You also expressed a read and reason why you were keeping your vote on Puff in 101, so why do the statistics matter at all here?

[Mizuki]

Kyouko, what are your takes on Gamma, Elements and Cobb rn?

[Mizuki]

-SNIP-

These two quotes make me happy with my vote where it is for now. I don't really know how well or accurate these statistics can be, because when these things are influenced by peoples actions/differing motivations in how they are acting or voting, I think it fudges the accuracy of these statistics.
I'll need to reread Cobblerfone's ISO, because at a glance, specifically these quotes, feels like it could be scum acting like they are providing more information than they actually are.

Not sure if we're mind-melding here or just sheeping what I've said on Cobb, lol.

[Mizuki]

I don't think I would've cared if you were sheeping me but if people are seeing the same thing I am it makes me feel better about my read, which is both for good and for ill considering Confbias.

[Mizuki]

I was mostly trying to figure out where you stand right now in this game. Your answer was a big null for me, and I didn't feel like pushing the issue further.

[Mizuki]

Mostly I didn't follow up on it because I felt like if I did I'd just talk myself into voting you, something I can be unfortunately very good at doing.

[Mizuki]

"Why are

so many people waiting

to see the response to post 30?
"Based on

Thomith's comment

about their vote"

These two statements do not align. This is also, again, incredibly reductive of Thomith's posting so far.

I have made many of these bad generalizations as town in the past fyi
It tends to be indicative of sone voices just nit being as present as they probably should be because the few louder ones are tuning those others out

I'd argue Thomith wasn't really the most active voice at the time Elements made 95 though, nor was post 30 the most relevant post at that time she voted Thomith. Feels random to hyper-focus on Thomith there, but I can sort of agree that I probably see it coming from town more often than maf.

How do you feel about Thomith, Kyouko and Elements rn, Gamma?

[Mizuki]

Ah, my b. Apologies.

[Mizuki]

I don't think Elements faking new-ness on her alt really means much alignment-wise, just different philosophies of alt-ing. I've made no attempt to hide that I'm an alt of another user, though I'd rather the identity of my main be secret for various reasons that go beyond the game of Mafia (something I'm paranoid I'm failing at, because I think I have a distinctive style of typing), but I've known several players who fake new-ness simply so people don't start with any biases against that account, as both alignments.

Think I agree with Thomith and Kyouko rn that Elements play has mostly been townie so far.

[Mizuki]

When rereading I just realised something I did not notice before.

I fully only thought there were like 2 or 3 of us questioning Puff about post 30, but on a reread it seems like it was over half the playerlist in the entire game that was questioning the slot (Me, Gamma Emerald, Cobblerfone, Elements, Mizuki, Kyouko) either directly on post 30, or on other things after it became clear that the Puff slot had gained a lot of attention. That definitely gives me vibes that Puff could very feasibly just be Town, and there was at least one Mafia jumping on that seemingly easy train of thought/suspicion.
Again this also makes me more tempted to read Elements as Town currently, as it did look like they were trying to avoid this happening, at least to me.

I can agree with Puff being town since it seems like they had a genuine intent to get the game moving in a way that very much seemed agenda-agnostic and I do like this train of thought. I went back through the ISO's of the players you mentioned (except myself) and my brain really only produces Cobb as an answer for Maf.

IDK, I feel like too many people seem townie at the moment, sort of inclined to believe that Maf is in one of the V/LA's (Cele, Shaddowez). I guess Gamma hasn't really pinged me one way or the other but I always find her hard to read.

[Mizuki]

Because it's lazy and that feels more like town than scum. The alternative is that you're scum scrambling desperately to push Gamma for {arbitrary reasons} and I don't think that makes sense in the gamestate unless the scumteam is exactly {Cobbler, Elements}, and even then that's a stretch because in that case there are still like 3 low-activity slots that could be pressured to divert attention from Cobbler instead.

Why couldn't it be mafia simply not feeling pressured and lazily throwing out arbitrary scumreads? You present the possibility of lazy!town and desperate!wolf but don't seem to consider the option in the middle.

-SNIP-

I won't get into the whole statistics part of this post because my opinions on statistics in mafia is that they're only useful for the theoretical side of mafia (e.g balancing setups) and have no use in actual gameplay.

I do want to know what you find in Puff's and Kyouko's posts that seems townie and what in Elements posts you find scummy, since those are basically the only reads you've given so far.

[Mizuki]

-SNIP-

For some reason I thought 191 was your post. Don't ask me why, I'd just woken up at that time.

When you say "the setup speculation didn't seem calculated to influence the town to choose a bad option" can you provide a more specific example? Where exactly are the points you think Kyouko could've misled town?

but like, your whole vote on Elements was predicated on me voting them, so me unvoting should have staying power?

I was choosing between Elements and someone else... cant remember who. And I chose Elements because I saw you were on it, although I guess you unvoted at some point.

I felt Elements was scum based on their opening as Crab btw. Idk how Adorable feels about Elements but I am down to vote that slot.

Could you be more specific with what pinged you about Elements opening?

[Mizuki]

Honestly?

VOTE: ssbm_kyouko

I think pushing up here might be worthwhile.

[Mizuki]

I think 206 and 208 give off a sort of authoritative tone that I'm not sure Town takes there. When I look at Elements vote on Gamma, I can think of a dozen different reasons that I, personally, could've made that post if I were scum there, from testing the waters on a potential Gamma wagon to simply formulating a fake, lazy meta read for towncred with no actual intent of having it go anywhere.

Kyouko asserts, however, that there's only a handful of possible universes in which a Maf!Elements makes that vote and read.

Basically, it's sort of what I accused Cobb of being, that of just trying to sound analytical, because if you really dig into the point Kyouko's making here there's so many different possible factors for why that vote could've happened, that boiling it down to just a 2-4 possible scenarios borders on kind of absurd unless Kyouko is intrinsically familiar with the working of Elements's mind, something I doubt.

Does that explanation make sense? It sounds okay to me in my head but typing it out was surprisingly an ordeal so I'm not sure I'm expressing it properly.

[Mizuki]

Now, on the other hand, I do think that 205 is probably a town post from Elements, since I think the kind of scrutiny that Elements shows there is very much a townie reaction.

[Mizuki]

I see, I'm not skilled enough to recognize lazy town for what it is.

I still don't agree there is any reason for scum!elements to be testing the waters on a Gamma wagon or trying to get towncred in this gamestate. Celebloki and shaddowes are still missing and Elements isn't under any pressure imo. Maybe she feels pressured by the comments on her entrance but I don't put stock in that as fake newness because she was posting on an alt, so I didn't consider that when evaluating the original read on Gamma. I would say it's much less likely to be due to that than it is to be due to town looking for something to bite in this gamestate.

The point has nothing to do with skill and everything to do with the fact that your confidence in your ability to read the gamestate (and the motivations behind Elements action) feels entirely unwarranted for only being 10 pages in the game, unless you're informed. The scenario's I presented in the previous post were just examples. The points you presented (and are still presenting) essentially amount to trying to read Elements mind, and you said them with such authority that it feels like you're trying to pass them off as though you actually can.

Honestly, the reason why I'm a little confused is because the votes happened, but the reasoning for them had to be drawn out of Mizuki and Elements, rather than mentioned when the votes originally happened.
I could be reading too much into this though.

For me, I had to go play MTG with friends very quickly afterwards so I dropped my vote and then dipped. When I got back I had a notification on my phone and so responded to you.

[Mizuki]

Alright cool.

VOTE: Celebloki

Got all I wanted out of that vote.

[Mizuki]

Anyone else think shaddowez is scum here? just based off the first post.

Elements is being scummy too. But there is the whole alt thing so idk.

What do you think @kyouko

What's scummy about what is essentially an ego post?

Over explainy first post. "Sleep now." "Post tomorrow"

Scum feels the need to over explain, especially in a scenario where they legit gotta go. Town would just be like "sup" and leave.

That's kind of what I assumed you meant.
Hm. I guess I could see it, but I do want to hear more from him before making a full judgement.

That's fair. what do you think about elements/crabapple

I feel like their opening was bad enough to warrant a vote today.

Up until the Gamma Meta, and subsequent Kyouko discussion, I had a slight town read on Elements, due to the attempt to push the game forward/away from everyone focusing on you for post 30.

I'm not too sure after that though. It seemed like they backed off the Gamma meta argument when questioned, and as I said before, I do just get a weird feeling that the Kyouko push happened without much reason to begin with (I understand Mizuki's reasoning for this), and the reasoning had to be extracted through questioning.
To be fair, I feel like Elements responded well to this questioning, which is what makes me feel weird about that whole situation and makes me unsure how to read it at the moment.

I have no idea what Elements reason is for voting Kyouko with me, I voted her mostly because there was a feeling in the back of my mind that she could've been scum coasting on early townreads, so I wanted to push her on her Elements read to try and feel out if it was genuine or not, and I think it is. I do still stand by what I said about Elements 205 though.

[Mizuki]

Okay, makes sense.

I will probably vote Shaddowez, or whoever Adorable wants. But I have a good feeling about Shaddowez.

However... limming mafia Day 1 is not always the best for Town since it makes the last mafia harder to catch since no associations. Magnified by shaddowez never posting.

So I'll need to hear what everyone, as in everyone, thinks about Shaddowez.

I think that logic only really applies if Mafia get speed-lim'd. I've had that happen before where Mafia get quick-hammered very early in the day and then the last one deep-wolfs to win, but I think just as long as we do our due diligence we'll probably be fine

[Mizuki]

Think Imaginality's catchup is townie. I still think I have too many townvibes at the moment, so I'm fairly uncertain of that statement, but I also think I just still want to get Cobb today, so:

VOTE: Cobblerfone

[Mizuki]

Like part of me says that their right and I am tunneling their but I also just read back and fail to find anything I like about the slot. Don't like the posts, don't like where the vote has been, don't like the reasoning for those votes, etc.

[Mizuki]

for those unaware

Enchant auto-hammers at E-1 so careful running people up who you don't want to get quickhammered.

Readslist:

Yay!

Thomith
Elements
Mizuki
Kyouko
Gamma
Puff
Shadow
Cobb

Nay!

This reads list gives me bad vibes and I'm not entirely sure why.
I agree with what Cobb has said a little, it feels like the 4 "scummiest" on the list have either already had a decent amount of suspicion on them, or haven't been posting walls so I could see this list maybe coming from a Mafia member trying to set up Mislims against people they think they potentially could out argue.

I sort of agree in the sense that I usually think replacements have a fresher perspective on the game and are therefore more likely to go against the grain of thought, and imaginality's mostly just gone along with everyone else

But also you could just apply Occam's Razor here and if both replace-in's find Cobb scummy I think he just is.

[Mizuki]

I've never played with Enchant and thanks for letting us now that he auto hammers at E-1.

- A

Is that actually true?

Unless he's super town-reading the person getting run-up then yeah, he'll quickhammer.

If you've played with Not_Mafia it's a similar experience.

[Mizuki]

Not sure what to make of the Enchant/Gamma interaction.

At this point I just want Cobb to claim.

[Mizuki]

I do not have a hard guilty

NKA: Enchant is an odd kill here. His only votes were on Kyouko and the hammer on Cobb, and his only real interaction of the day was with Gamma, who I'm not sure he was even scumreading. Two possibilities immediately present themselves to me, one being that he was simply killed for being a low-info, low associative kill. The other is that Enchant quickhammering after Cobb claimed Follower might've made the last scum think he was a PR. The former scenario is what worries me, since it implies a deep-wolf I think.

I think imaginaility has to be town here, I don't think scum replaces in to immediately start swinging at their partner, especially since it was his vote that really restarted the Cobb wagon and imaginality never really offered an alternative wagon other than Puff. That kind of bussing on D1, especially when we had like 3 days left in the deadline at that point, in a 2-scum setup? Doesn't seem likely to me.

Two main suspects for today are Puff and Gamma. I don't think it's a stretch to say that the Cobb wagon was all town and the Enchant push at the end of the day from Gamma smells bad to me, and Puff has looked null to scummy all game so far.

I think I'll start here for today:

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[Mizuki]

Hypoclaim: Elements went nowhere last night

I do not have a hard guilty

NKA: Enchant is an odd kill here. His only votes were on Kyouko and the hammer on Cobb, and his only real interaction of the day was with Gamma, who I'm not sure he was even scumreading. Two possibilities immediately present themselves to me, one being that he was simply killed for being a low-info, low associative kill. The other is that Enchant quickhammering after Cobb claimed Follower might've made the last scum think he was a PR. The former scenario is what worries me, since it implies a deep-wolf I think.

I think imaginaility has to be town here, I don't think scum replaces in to immediately start swinging at their partner, especially since it was his vote that really restarted the Cobb wagon and imaginality never really offered an alternative wagon other than Puff. That kind of bussing on D1, especially when we had like 3 days left in the deadline at that point, in a 2-scum setup? Doesn't seem likely to me.

Two main suspects for today are Puff and Gamma. I don't think it's a stretch to say that the Cobb wagon was all town and the Enchant push at the end of the day from Gamma smells bad to me, and Puff has looked null to scummy all game so far.

I think I'll start here for today:

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

I have played with Enchant a fair amount, do you think I would have been unaware of his playstyle, or that I just opted to disadvantage myself?

Not sure what you're trying to say here, are you saying you don't make the Enchant kill here because his playstyle would benefit you as scum?

[Mizuki]

I still stand by on what I said about imagi. After seeing Cobb's flip, imagi linking us to Cobb looked like he was setting up a miselim after flipping his buddy. His vote on Cobb I could see it as a bus. Cobb was already getting suspected in the thread when imagi replaced in and of course scum would want to look good after their scum buddy gets flipped. When you play or spectate a lot of mafia games, you start to recognize reading games based on what you expect scum to do in certain situations. What imagi did by linking me to Cobb when there has been no scum flip it's always only scum who do this and town doesn't do this.

Enchant's hammer also pinged me because Cobb claimed a pr and it did look like Enchant was scum who knows Cobb is scum. I'm glad mafia killed Enchant because it removed a heavy suspected poe slot for me.

Hypoclaim: I do not have a hard guilty

VOTE: imaginality

I don't really buy this explanation because your idea of imagi's strategy simply doesn't ring as sound. Imagi hard-busses his partner, immediately setting the game to 6:1, meaning he has to survive 3 days to win, against Town PR's, and then tries to set you up as a chain lim on D2, which would immediately bring the suspicion back to him? If that were his plan, then it seems incredibly short-sighted.

And town absolutely tries to look for associatives even when 1 party hasn't flipped yet. Town has lost many a game because they were looking for full teams rather than individual scum. Saying "only scum" or "only town" do a certain thing in dayplay is practically always an incorrect statement.

[Mizuki]

A combination of re-reading the game during night phase, cannibalizing other people's reads, and associatives from the Cobb flip.


What is your response to 385, by the way?

[Mizuki]

A combination of re-reading the game during night phase, cannibalizing other people's reads, and associatives from the Cobb flip.

What is your response to 385, by the way?

It makes it hard for me to buy what you're saying and your inconsistency was very pingy. Progressions are very important and you did not show progression on your read on us. It would have looked alot more believable if you said something along the lines of, "I had a town read on Puff from last day but now my town read on them is starting to drop." After seeing the Cobbs flip, I put you as town on my reads list I made in the hydra chat and now that I saw your recent post I became paranoid of you.

What does cannibalizing other peoples reads mean?

My response to your other post is on the first paragraph this is what I believe and I became worried that town would never look into the set up of a miselim because scum can get away from doing it. Where I come from town hardly ever does it and they have individual reads instead.

- A

I very rarely have good progressions. I play very much "in the moment", so to speak, which can make me seem inconsistent. Are you also suspect of Kyouko here? She stated a "firm town" read on Elements in 254 and now 384 looks to be Kyouko now scumreading Elements.

When I say "cannibalizing" I'm basically just sheeping other people's reads. As I said I trust Imagi for right now, and you were suspected rather early in the day.

How many games have you played on MS (talking to Adorable specifically)? I can show you a few games where town lost because they were looking for a team rather than an individual scum-read. I've won scumgames off of that.

[Mizuki]

A combination of re-reading the game during night phase, cannibalizing other people's reads, and associatives from the Cobb flip.

What is your response to 385, by the way?

It makes it hard for me to buy what you're saying and your inconsistency was very pingy. Progressions are very important and you did not show progression on your read on us. It would have looked alot more believable if you said something along the lines of, "I had a town read on Puff from last day but now my town read on them is starting to drop." After seeing the Cobbs flip, I put you as town on my reads list I made in the hydra chat and now that I saw your recent post I became paranoid of you.

What does cannibalizing other peoples reads mean?

My response to your other post is on the first paragraph this is what I believe and I became worried that town would never look into the set up of a miselim because scum can get away from doing it. Where I come from town hardly ever does it and they have individual reads instead.

- A

I very rarely have good progressions. I play very much "in the moment", so to speak, which can make me seem inconsistent. Are you also suspect of Kyouko here? She stated a "firm town" read on Elements in 254 and now 384 looks to be Kyouko now scumreading Elements.

When I say "cannibalizing" I'm basically just sheeping other people's reads. As I said I trust Imagi for right now, and you were suspected rather early in the day.

How many games have you played on MS (talking to Adorable specifically)? I can show you a few games where town lost because they were looking for a team rather than an individual scum-read. I've won scumgames off of that.

Kyouko's post on #384 did not make me suspect her. Cobb said like around 2 or 3 times they have a strong town read on Kyouko and after seeing their flip it made me think they tmied Kyouko town.

You accused my slot of cannabilizing and so are you saying I have been sheeping? Where have I been sheeping because it doesn't feel like I have been sheeping. You said you trust imagi and was it just his catch up you liked? Is there anything else you like about imagi?

I've only played alike around 12-15 games here. I don't know if you are misunderstanding me or not. You said you can show me a few games where town lost for looking for a team rather than individual scum read and my read on imagi was mainly his catch up post from day 1 how it looked like he paired me and cobb as a team when there has been no scum flip at that time and after seeing Cobb's flip I still suspected imagi and on day 2 I became worried he was setting up a day 2 miselim. Are you saying I am looking for team rather than individual scum read?

- A

I think we're both misunderstanding each other, I'm saying

I

was the one sheeping other people's reads, not that you were, and that's whats led me to my suspicion on you. I trust Imagi for the reasons I said in 385, I don't think the associatives or the theoretical scum strategy here are realistic.

I was asking if you suspected Kyouko because your reasons for suspecting me also feel like they should apply to her flipping from townreading Elements to now scumreading Elements on D2.

I'm saying that I Imagi pairing you and Cobb with no flip is NAI, since Town is just as likely to try to make associative reads before 1 party has even flipped. That's why I keep bringing up games where Town has lost looking for teams rather than individual scum.

[Mizuki]

You said I was cannibalizing reads and when I asked you what does that mean you said sheeping. I am still not able to understand what this means and when you said you suspected me for cannibalizing reads is it because I am not sheeping?

Okay, let me make it clear. When I said "cannibalizing reads" I said that I, Mizuki, was the one doing that. It was a response to you asking me why I switched to scumreading you. Admittedly, I phrased it a bit poorly, but I am the one sheeping here. You sheeping or not sheeping has nothing to do with my read on you.

[Mizuki]

That's basically it. I'm very curious what Gamma was trying to say in 375 because it seemed to me like a pre-emptive defense of "well, I wouldn't kill Enchant here". From my perspective the push onto Enchant on the end of the game pinged me as trying to push momentum onto a player whose notoriously easy to scumread.

[Mizuki]

end of the day* woops

[Mizuki]

Hypoclaim: Elements went nowhere last night

I do not have a hard guilty

NKA: Enchant is an odd kill here. His only votes were on Kyouko and the hammer on Cobb, and his only real interaction of the day was with Gamma, who I'm not sure he was even scumreading. Two possibilities immediately present themselves to me, one being that he was simply killed for being a low-info, low associative kill. The other is that Enchant quickhammering after Cobb claimed Follower might've made the last scum think he was a PR. The former scenario is what worries me, since it implies a deep-wolf I think.

I think imaginaility has to be town here, I don't think scum replaces in to immediately start swinging at their partner, especially since it was his vote that really restarted the Cobb wagon and imaginality never really offered an alternative wagon other than Puff. That kind of bussing on D1, especially when we had like 3 days left in the deadline at that point, in a 2-scum setup? Doesn't seem likely to me.

Two main suspects for today are Puff and Gamma. I don't think it's a stretch to say that the Cobb wagon was all town and the Enchant push at the end of the day from Gamma smells bad to me, and Puff has looked null to scummy all game so far.

I think I'll start here for today:

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

I have played with Enchant a fair amount, do you think I would have been unaware of his playstyle, or that I just opted to disadvantage myself?

Not sure what you're trying to say here, are you saying you don't make the Enchant kill here because his playstyle would benefit you as scum?

I'm saying me pushing Enchant yesterday is the part that doesn't make sense

Would you care to go into more detail as to why?

[Mizuki]

I have no frame of reference for how many games you've played with Enchant. I've been off-site for a little while.

Did you push Enchant specifically so he would hammer Cobb? If so, why didn't you just hammer Cobb yourself?

[Mizuki]

Mostly now I'm reinforcing TRs in Mizuki, Thomith, and Elements, and want POE within Gamma/imaginality because Puff looks to be spewed town

This is mostly where I'm at, except swap Imagi and Puff's spots. I think there's a fairly solid town-block established and I think at this point just limming inside Gamma/Puff/maybe Imagi probably just nets us the win eventually.

[Mizuki]

Everything checks out, I'm a VT.

It really just has to between Gamma and Imagi then, I don't see Kyouko putting herself into a corner like this as scum and I can't see anything egregiously manipulative in the mech spec.

[Mizuki]

Yeah as much as it would've been nice to play a perfect game here in the end Gamma was going to go down anyways due to mechanics and the very strong town-block that had been there since the beginning of the game. Just unlucky that Cobb got caught out so early.

GG's all.

[Mizuki]

In fairness, Town limming mafia on D1 is not something that happens often, and usually leads to disaster for Maf on most occasions outside of all VT setups.