Open 899 - The Pizza Kids Coalition [Game Over]

[fireisredsir]

fire, I need a world where Dragon is scum with someone other than me. I sometimes want to entertain the thought, but I'm not sure that he makes sense as scum with anyone else particularly so I'm left thinking that it's probably you that I should be voting for here.

i mean ive been looking and i don't think i see one either so im not really expecting that you will be changing your vote here or that i should be trying to convince you

if you are actually town then at this point i think it's more likely that im wrong on dragon and it's in appearance/klick. but i don't really see that

dragon/appearance is maybe possible but i wouldn't want to lim appearance over dragon anyway

[Prism]

Vote Count 2.3

Player	Votes
fireisredsir (2)	DeasVail (1201), Klick (1253)
DragonEater70 (1)	T3 (1295)
Not Voting (4)	implosion, fireisredsir, Appearance, DragonEater70 (1262)

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 votes to eliminate.

No elimination has been achieved. The Day 2 deadline is in (expired on 2024-02-02 12:30:00).

[DragonEater70]

well that's just very faulty logic

So is it faulty logic or bad faith

[DragonEater70]

Also I realize I might be tunneled because you are right that some of my arguments of why you are scum kinda suck, so I am going to do a reread of everything that happened post-coalition at my earliest convenience (probably Monday).

[fireisredsir]

well that's just very faulty logic

So is it faulty logic or bad faith

it's definitely faulty logic, and it feels to me like that faulty logic is being used in bad faith

it's possible that you genuinely believe your logic is sound but i think if you're scum you're just saying things to sound aggressively confident

[Prism]

Klick has been prodded. He has 24 hours to post before I begin searching for a replacement.

Normally, a third prod results in a force-replacement under my ruleset. I'm trying to avoid more disruption, so I'm giving Klick one more chance.

[Prism]

For the entire playerlist: I'm trying to be flexible. Virtually everyone has struggled to keep the 36 hour prod deadline. I've intentionally waited several more hours on multiple occasions, but despite that extra cushion I've still sent out too many prods.

I'm shifting the prod timer to 48 hours. This is the final line. Please be fair to the other players and post at least once every other day.

[Klick]

Hello!

I have done thinking about the probable scumteams in a fire!town world and have come to basically the same conclusion as fire has posted, that the most viable scumteam in that scenario is DragonEater/DeasVail. However, I am unconvinced currently that either of these players is actually scum.

I feel like fire's current approach to the game feels very much like it could be scum trying to suggest alternatives and the reasoning behind those alternatives in an attempt to get people to change their minds, without seeming like fire is directly arguing against his own elimination. Or fire could be town, doing this to try to have as clear a signpost for town to follow as possible upon his elimination (but then why is he saying 'probably don't sheep me'?).

I'm a bit tired of thinking about DragonEater's alignment in this game in general. Because there's a lack of clarity as to his perceived and actual scum range, and I haven't a clue what a DragonEater scum game would actually look like if he drew red here. Contrast that with feeling like I know what a fire scum game would look like - very similar to a town one, and what we're seeing currently. This description encapsulates why I am uncertain here.

I don't really think implosion is scum at this point. I've weirdly landed on this as my most certain townread.

[T3]

dragon’s shade was ridiculous on page 53… no way he actually believes that I could be scum because it took me 4 minutes to read

[DeasVail]

Hello!

I have done thinking about the probable scumteams in a fire!town world and have come to basically the same conclusion as fire has posted, that the most viable scumteam in that scenario is DragonEater/DeasVail. However, I am unconvinced currently that either of these players is actually scum.

I feel like fire's current approach to the game feels very much like it could be scum trying to suggest alternatives and the reasoning behind those alternatives in an attempt to get people to change their minds, without seeming like fire is directly arguing against his own elimination. Or fire could be town, doing this to try to have as clear a signpost for town to follow as possible upon his elimination (but then why is he saying 'probably don't sheep me'?).

I'm a bit tired of thinking about DragonEater's alignment in this game in general. Because there's a lack of clarity as to his perceived and actual scum range, and I haven't a clue what a DragonEater scum game would actually look like if he drew red here. Contrast that with feeling like I know what a fire scum game would look like - very similar to a town one, and what we're seeing currently. This description encapsulates why I am uncertain here.

I don't really think implosion is scum at this point. I've weirdly landed on this as my most certain townread.

I’m currently at fire/t3 in my mind

[fireisredsir]

Or fire could be town, doing this to try to have as clear a signpost for town to follow as possible upon his elimination (but then why is he saying 'probably don't sheep me'?).

Spoiler:

explaining further may or may not be helpful, but i can. i think that isn't quite right but close

i do want to make it clear what my current reads are and i want to make sure it's very clear why i have those reads. to me, the why is more important in this case. i want people to be able to dig into those reasons for themselves and ideally engage with them and see if they agree. even more ideal would be if they like asked me questions on any places where they have doubts or reasons that aren't as convincing to them. because if i am getting limmed, today is our current last chance to have the maximum number of town talking to each other, which means it's our best chance to solve. after this the thread will be more dense with scum voices, so if me flipping sends everyone into a place of "i don't know who it is!" then we probably just lose

when i say don't sheep me, what i mean is i don't want people to just blindly vote who i say i think is scum. to be transparent, i think a lot of me not wanting that comes from being afraid of it being "my fault" if we lose, and despite being fairly confident not wanting to take on that kind of responsibility

but i do want people to listen to what i have to say and consider it carefully especially given the knowledge that it's coming from town, and then decide for themselves whether they come to the same conclusion

[fireisredsir]

i understand the general weariness around the dragon discussion though

im trying not to have an overbearing presence on the thread right now bc i think thats unhealthy for the game but i also want to make my points and positions clear idk

i think ideally other people would be talking to each other more instead of me feeling like the center of each talking point but i don't really know if taking a step back is more helpful here

[fireisredsir]

I have done thinking about the probable scumteams in a fire!town world and have come to basically the same conclusion as fire has posted, that the most viable scumteam in that scenario is DragonEater/DeasVail. However, I am unconvinced currently that either of these players is actually scum.

i guess this implies that my townflip would be the missing piece that would allow you to be convinced

which is a bit relieving and maybe means i can stop worring as much, aside from the usual worry that i am Wrong, Actually

although i have no idea where implo and appearance's heads are at

[implosion]

I've caught up.

I'm a bit tired of thinking about DragonEater's alignment in this game in general. Because there's a lack of clarity as to his perceived and actual scum range, and I haven't a clue what a DragonEater scum game would actually look like if he drew red here. Contrast that with feeling like I know what a fire scum game would look like - very similar to a town one, and what we're seeing currently. This description encapsulates why I am uncertain here.

I feel sort of rotationally similar to this, in that I think I'm being convinced that I have a pretty murky picture of what a DragonEater scum game would look like but I think I do know what his town game would look like if he had drawn green here and it's pretty much this picture. I am remembering that fire is a player I have historically figured that I probably just can't read well at all. I feel like fire's reasons for "this could be Dragon's scum game" in 1285 are in essence compelling reasons for exactly that, that the way Dragon played around the coalition is not a reason to locktown Dragon because it can come from Dragon-scum. But "this thing people are locktowning Dragon for could come from Dragon as scum" is not strictly a reason to scumread Dragon, and it's not even necessarily an argument that that thing Dragon did isn't on net more likely to come from him as town than as scum. I feel like the wholistic read of Dragon's ISO at this point just makes it hard for me to believe that it's not his town game, and it's possible that

i

am town tunneling him but things like him calling T3 scum for taking 4 minutes to read a post and his (I agree with fire here) very uninspiring logic in 1348 are, I think, also evidence of him being town because I just don't understand what reasons he has to post those things as scum. The former just alienates T3 if T3 is town and looks really weird and attention-draw-y if they're scum together, the latter is the kind of thing that I feel is very easy to post when you have the brazenness of actually being town and very hard to decide to post when you're in this public 1v1 as scum and you're trying to play the crowd or whatever. Bad logic is probably pretty correlated with being town, in practice, because town is on average less self-critical about what they're posting.

Basically I think I haven't seen any good reason why Dragon wouldn't have made any of the posts he's made as town.

I think fire is the best lim. I ideally would like to get some life out of Appearance before day end but I know he's V/LA.

[DragonEater70]

dragon’s shade was ridiculous on page 53… no way he actually believes that I could be scum because it took me 4 minutes to read

I didn't call you scum for it, I just said it was wild and I did sincerely feel it was wild.

[DragonEater70]

Like I can call things out as wild without saying they are necessarily scum indicative

[DragonEater70]

I've caught up.

I'm a bit tired of thinking about DragonEater's alignment in this game in general. Because there's a lack of clarity as to his perceived and actual scum range, and I haven't a clue what a DragonEater scum game would actually look like if he drew red here. Contrast that with feeling like I know what a fire scum game would look like - very similar to a town one, and what we're seeing currently. This description encapsulates why I am uncertain here.

I feel sort of rotationally similar to this, in that I think I'm being convinced that I have a pretty murky picture of what a DragonEater scum game would look like but I think I do know what his town game would look like if he had drawn green here and it's pretty much this picture. I am remembering that fire is a player I have historically figured that I probably just can't read well at all.

I feel like fire's reasons for "this could be Dragon's scum game" in 1285 are in essence compelling reasons for exactly that, that the way Dragon played around the coalition is not a reason to locktown Dragon because it can come from Dragon-scum. But "this thing people are locktowning Dragon for could come from Dragon as scum" is not strictly a reason to scumread Dragon, and it's not even necessarily an argument that that thing Dragon did isn't on net more likely to come from him as town than as scum.

I feel like the wholistic read of Dragon's ISO at this point just makes it hard for me to believe that it's not his town game, and it's possible that

i

am town tunneling him but things like him calling T3 scum for taking 4 minutes to read a post and his (I agree with fire here) very uninspiring logic in 1348 are, I think, also evidence of him being town because I just don't understand what reasons he has to post those things as scum. The former just alienates T3 if T3 is town and looks really weird and attention-draw-y if they're scum together, the latter is the kind of thing that I feel is very easy to post when you have the brazenness of actually being town and very hard to decide to post when you're in this public 1v1 as scum and you're trying to play the crowd or whatever. Bad logic is probably pretty correlated with being town, in practice, because town is on average less self-critical about what they're posting.

Basically I think I haven't seen any good reason why Dragon wouldn't have made any of the posts he's made as town.

I think fire is the best lim. I ideally would like to get some life out of Appearance before day end but I know he's V/LA.

These are exactly my thoughts on why I feel fire's read of me feels incomplete lol

[DragonEater70]

My one problem here is I'm struggling to see who could be fire's partner if fire is scum.

[DragonEater70]

I have done thinking about the probable scumteams in a fire!town world and have come to basically the same conclusion as fire has posted, that the most viable scumteam in that scenario is DragonEater/DeasVail. However, I am unconvinced currently that either of these players is actually scum.

i guess this implies that my townflip would be the missing piece that would allow you to be convinced

which is a bit relieving and maybe means i can stop worring as much, aside from the usual worry that i am Wrong, Actually

although i have no idea where implo and appearance's heads are at

If you are town you should stop scumreading me for the fact that I'm inside my perceived scumrange and start looking at "could DE's posts come from town and how likely are they to come from town" and then ask yourself who is the team if I'm town.

I'm saying that because if you ARE town then you ARE wrong.

[DragonEater70]

Anyway

As I said going to reread either Monday or Tuesday (just found out we have quite some time to deadline and I have real life plans for Monday, namely more D&D), and determine whether I can either find fire as town or find an explanation of who their oartner would be if scum.

Goodbye for now unless I can't fall asleep in which case I'll probably post stuff at 1 AM.

[DragonEater70]

i don't want to spam the thread too much but i was rereading to see if i felt the solve made sense in the early game and i think it does

97 and 100 into 131 in particular feel pretty questionable. "trying hard to be townread" is basically dv's reason to suspect dragon, so the fact that dragon assigning that read to someone else is being treated as a mindmeld and reason to townread is kinda ?

in general i think their reads on each other are fairly awkward. there's more of that from the dragon direction and im not really sure how to feel about DV identifying and calling that out himself here

also when i came across 164 again i think especially it doesn't make sense from a town mindset coming right after 148 and it kinda feels to me like tmi that the townblock is not at all pure. i don't think town here would have this reaction given the way dragon has been treating klick in the game

You aren't making sense and if you are town you should REMOVE the "dragon is confscum" lens from your eyes when you read things.

1. DV specifically said they were SRing implo for trying to be townread, and had implo as their bottom read before I mentioned having that read. Of course it's a mindmeld. How the fuck else should DV treat it?

2. I have been very vocal about the idea that I hate reading gamestates where people aren't trying to find scum, only town. I personally have no idea how you could ever have good reads in such a state since all scum has to do to blend in is just townread town. I also despise low-action games and thrive in high-action, dynamic games. Klick's 148 was not really a step toward finding scum OR toward making the game faster or more dynamic. He was just asking me to talk about my TRs of a bunch of people who I was mildly TRing but with no proper reference point of how scum would act because I have payed maybe 2 games where the object was to find town and not scum and lost both, and also because I couldn't fond any scum either way. So these two posts are completely unrelated.

And claiming 164 is not a town mindset is ridiculous. Scum mindset doesn't give a hot damn about town stunbling about. Town does.

This is such a bad, horrible, stupid and nonsensical post and overall tunnel that I think you are just to scummy to be "too scummy to be scum", i.e you are just scum. But if you are town then freaking stop being so obstinately tunneled and actually use your brain because your arguments are stupid. And I would use harsher words but I just can't bring myself to it because I hate being mean to people and I think you are probably not a horrible person outsode of this game.

[Appearance]

i'll read up later today.
i have just returned back to land.

[fireisredsir]

I think you are probably not a horrible person outsode of this game

gee thanks

[fireisredsir]

it feels like there is a general misconception that my 1285 was about why i think dragon is scum, and it isnt, it's why i realized that my reason for thinking dragon didn't make sense as scum (despite a lot of other signs pointing that way for me) was invalid. so yes the thing that you are describing it as being (and therefore a Bad Case) is in fact exactly what it is

the context isn't even that other people were locktowning him for it, it's something i was struggling with in my own read. idk if it even is a big factor for other people it seems like they're townreading him for other stuff

to remedy this i was going to clarify what my reasons for thinking dragon is scum are (as in the specific things that i think make sense from scum but dont make sense from town) but currently i feel somewhat less enthused about doing that so idk maybe later

[DragonEater70]

I think you are probably not a horrible person outsode of this game

gee thanks

Sorry that was rude