Mini Theme 2328: Death Note: Second Page. Day 3!

[Klick]

Who else is on your shortlist of potential Kiras?

[Radical Rat]

Gimli and Dan, in the event that you are actually a Follower instead.

If I'm to suppose I'm completely wrong and you're actually Town, then I'm kind of back to square one. Absent confounding evidence though, I'd be happy to just lim You > Gimli > Dan.

[Klick]

I thought the push on HPE was weak, and expressed as much, but what stuck out to me was your insistence on it being a red herring, and your supposition that Action Dan was Kira based on basically nothing. I wanted to wait and see how things developed, and then they just got worse.

Your reaction to HPE claiming a shitpost seemed to indicate you thought it WAS signaling Kira, but that doesn't quite align with your red herring claim earlier. I thought perhaps you might have been a Follower either misdirecting to protect Gimli, perhaps assuming HPE was the other partner and being worried someone else would interpret that as a signal, or potentially Dan's Follower, trying to do a reverse psychology, which would explain why you never actually voted Dan.

But then Gimli's suggestion that Kira won't look scummy combined with you being absent from his PoE pool due to "investigative depth" that doesn't exist, with you yourself describing your reads as vibe-based, made all of the pieces Klick into place.

You jumped at HPE because, as Kira, you're looking for these signals, and having seen something that you think looks like a signal but directed towards someone else, you tried to push that narrative. No matter whether it lands on Gimli or Dan, it's not you. Gimli's oddities would put him as a strong Follower candidate, and then Dragon immediately jumping on me as soon as I suggested I thought you were Kira... well I think he's overplayed the hand now.

So I suppose to answer your question, Klick, what I'm looking for... is justice.

I'm not sure why your assumption is that Kira wants to play this phase with what you see as weak, shaky reasoning

My intuition is the exact opposite - that a Kira in this situation would want to build up a framework that is hard to push against. Which probably explains my gut Kira read on ActionDan. I don't feel that strong of a like... conviction behind anything ActionDan is saying right now, and feel like what he's saying could just as easily be motivated by wanting to seem like he's doing something important as any actual scumhunting activity

[Radical Rat]

What about ActionDan looks like building up a framework to you?

[Klick]

'Framework' might not be an accurate word for what I'm trying to describe. I can't think of a perfectly accurate word for it.

But what I'm seeing is this:

I might have found Aureal's aggression and questioning towny if it weren't for her being in the wrong at every turn. It sours me.

Slightly related but flavor discussion makes me itchy as I can see it being used as an avenue to communicate to Kira who their followers are. I haven't seen anything explicit yet though.

As many have said Klick's entrance is doodoo.

@cuddles : I can't shake that your post 7 and 8 doesn't come from scum. Rest of your hydra's posting is fine.

.As for Klick he came in and engaged with a trivial post and his rejoinder was not germane

I guess a good way to describe my issue with all of the above is that they feel very *positional*. When I read them, they feel like they are posted with the intent of making it clear to the thread what ActionDan's position is on a number of topics. Kind of like a checklist.

On me specifically, I feel like ActionDan wants to express skepticism of me without actually committing to something resembling a vote or a scumread:

My big question about this is why does it matter if they are follower or Kira? Even if they are follower and not Kira, voting them off is still good (just want to say this is from your point of view not mine, I don't have a read on hpe currently but I'll check after this)

Because HPE might let it slip that ActionDan is Kira

You're welcome to share that.

My big question about this is why does it matter if they are follower or Kira? Even if they are follower and not Kira, voting them off is still good (just want to say this is from your point of view not mine, I don't have a read on hpe currently but I'll check after this)

Because HPE might let it slip that ActionDan is Kira

This train of thought confuses me. Clearly you think HPE has likely

already

let it slip. So I don't understand what more there would be to gain here. We're not going to get confirmation of HPE being follower or not. And you saying to all of us that you think Dan could be Kira to HPE's follower, if true surely just makes them that much more careful to try not to look like that. I don't know why you would say it if you're only just thinking it's a possibility, so this doesn't feel like a real thought that you have and that distresses me.

The post you quoted is mostly me trying to answer Hu Tao with as little information as possible. Because several people at this point want to extract everything they can out of my reasoning before neither HPE nor ActionDan give an adequate response.

I misread your post before. I thought you were directly saying you thought HPE slipped that I was Kira not that they have the chance to maybe do so. I would like to know what adequate response you are expecting? Because as far I can tell I'm not being accused of anything. If you had reasons to throw my name there instead of anyone else's then you're welcome to share them.

Like, in the last quote specifically it feels like there's an active effort to question my approach without stating an opinion on the incident. It feels very careful and unnatural to me. I feel like the focus is on ActionDan's position.

[CUDDLE TIME]

Quick question to RR (I will be able to post more in a bit I think):

Was your post 321 implying you thought I was a follower of Klick's? How does this scumread add up if you and I both have Gimli in our Kira shortlist?

- Dragon

[CUDDLE TIME]

Nvm I take that question back because obviously Klick is your bigger Kira read.

But A. Am I correct in my interpretation of that post? And B. Would you be TRing 320 if Klick was recealed right now to be not-Kira?

- Dragon

[Radical Rat]

Quick question to RR (I will be able to post more in a bit I think):

Was your post 321 implying you thought I was a follower of Klick's? How does this scumread add up if you and I both have Gimli in our Kira shortlist?

- Dragon

Yes it was.
It adds up because I am specifically reading you as overreacting to my accusation of Klick. Until then, I'd had your slot as a townlean. If Klick is Kira, Gimli obviously isn't, so you'd be free to try to push him as an alternative. If Klick isn't Kira, but is a Follower, Gimli becomes a viable option, and since my most immediate reason for scumreading you would be moot, I wouldn't be bothered by you agreeing.

P-Edit: Answered the question anyway, too late to take it back now.

As for TRing 320 if Klick is confirmed not Kira... I think the answer to that question is anti-Town to share.

[CUDDLE TIME]

Yeah I figured that out, I'm a genius.

I'm just grabbing some food and then I'll explain my process and why it wasn't me overreacting.

- Dragon

[HighPrincessErinys]

I think both feel really awkward here compared to what I'd expect from them as town but that's 100% vibes and 0% logic. I like vibes though

have we even played before

[Radical Rat]

'Framework' might not be an accurate word for what I'm trying to describe. I can't think of a perfectly accurate word for it.

But what I'm seeing is this:

I might have found Aureal's aggression and questioning towny if it weren't for her being in the wrong at every turn. It sours me.

Slightly related but flavor discussion makes me itchy as I can see it being used as an avenue to communicate to Kira who their followers are. I haven't seen anything explicit yet though.

As many have said Klick's entrance is doodoo.

@cuddles : I can't shake that your post 7 and 8 doesn't come from scum. Rest of your hydra's posting is fine.

.As for Klick he came in and engaged with a trivial post and his rejoinder was not germane

I guess a good way to describe my issue with all of the above is that they feel very *positional*. When I read them, they feel like they are posted with the intent of making it clear to the thread what ActionDan's position is on a number of topics. Kind of like a checklist.

On me specifically, I feel like ActionDan wants to express skepticism of me without actually committing to something resembling a vote or a scumread:

My big question about this is why does it matter if they are follower or Kira? Even if they are follower and not Kira, voting them off is still good (just want to say this is from your point of view not mine, I don't have a read on hpe currently but I'll check after this)

Because HPE might let it slip that ActionDan is Kira

You're welcome to share that.

My big question about this is why does it matter if they are follower or Kira? Even if they are follower and not Kira, voting them off is still good (just want to say this is from your point of view not mine, I don't have a read on hpe currently but I'll check after this)

Because HPE might let it slip that ActionDan is Kira

This train of thought confuses me. Clearly you think HPE has likely

already

let it slip. So I don't understand what more there would be to gain here. We're not going to get confirmation of HPE being follower or not. And you saying to all of us that you think Dan could be Kira to HPE's follower, if true surely just makes them that much more careful to try not to look like that. I don't know why you would say it if you're only just thinking it's a possibility, so this doesn't feel like a real thought that you have and that distresses me.

The post you quoted is mostly me trying to answer Hu Tao with as little information as possible. Because several people at this point want to extract everything they can out of my reasoning before neither HPE nor ActionDan give an adequate response.

I misread your post before. I thought you were directly saying you thought HPE slipped that I was Kira not that they have the chance to maybe do so. I would like to know what adequate response you are expecting? Because as far I can tell I'm not being accused of anything. If you had reasons to throw my name there instead of anyone else's then you're welcome to share them.

Like, in the last quote specifically it feels like there's an active effort to question my approach without stating an opinion on the incident. It feels very careful and unnatural to me. I feel like the focus is on ActionDan's position.

I don't really see what you're seeing here. By play, Dan looks fine to me. My only real concern is the potential association you've made, in the event the game continues past your death.

[Klick]

I think both feel really awkward here compared to what I'd expect from them as town but that's 100% vibes and 0% logic. I like vibes though

have we even played before

Yes
But I've also watched games you've played before, enough to be familiar-ish with your playstyle

[HighPrincessErinys]

I don't really see what you're seeing here. By play, Dan looks fine to me. My only real concern is the potential association you've made, in the event the game continues past your death.

This one isn't exactly a master of making reads, but to me its like... AD is setting up something, yeah, but is that something

scummy?

Positioning is used as a scumtell on everyone and their mother but like, beyond the debate of "is that actually even scummy" this one has to ask if that's even what AD is doing? The dichotomy of positioning/setting up vs I'm Actively Working Through A Read And Thinking It Through. idfk just my spitball take

[HighPrincessErinys]

I think both feel really awkward here compared to what I'd expect from them as town but that's 100% vibes and 0% logic. I like vibes though

have we even played before

Yes
But I've also watched games you've played before, enough to be familiar-ish with your playstyle

This one can't say it wholly trusts you on that considering someone it knows has seen and played with me me a lot (Gimli) seems to think its nervous when even as scum it just kinda goes with the flow. Wrongness abounds.

[Aureal]

Beyond that, ActionDan was a complete vibe check as someone I wasn't townreading, and I wanted to see what kind of response I'd get. I don't have anything solid to back up my read on ActionDan being Kira, it was sort of just a backwards gut read of 'if HPE is a Follower who feels about right as their Kira'.

I think both feel really awkward here compared to what I'd expect from them as town but that's 100% vibes and 0% logic. I like vibes though

Yay, I figured out what Klick was doing~

[Klick]

I don't really see what you're seeing here. By play, Dan looks fine to me. My only real concern is the potential association you've made, in the event the game continues past your death.
[/quote]

The kind of evidence you've presented for believing I'm Kira doesn't seem to match your confidence

[Klick]

I don't really see what you're seeing here. By play, Dan looks fine to me. My only real concern is the potential association you've made, in the event the game continues past your death.

The kind of evidence you've presented for believing I'm Kira doesn't seem to match your confidence

(Fixed)

[Klick]

UNVOTE:

[Radical Rat]

I don't really see what you're seeing here. By play, Dan looks fine to me. My only real concern is the potential association you've made, in the event the game continues past your death.

The kind of evidence you've presented for believing I'm Kira doesn't seem to match your confidence

(Fixed)

The evidence that you're sketchy as hell with internal inconsistencies, and that there happen to be two people defending you for dubious reasons, which is exactly what would be expected if you were Kira?

Yes, I'm confident. I know I am not infallible, so I am considering other worlds, but as far as D1 reads go, I think this is as good as I'm likely to get, and a solid place to start unraveling the rest of the game if I'm wrong.

[Aureal]

VOTE: Gimli
HURT: RR

Will elaborate on this later but I wanna see if anyone else is seeing what I'm seeing first

- Dragon

The sudden turn on Klick is a little jarring, yes, and I don't agree with it. But I'm pretty sure Rat is the type of player as town who makes bold plays so I can easily see this being genuine. And I'm not entirely clear where Gimli comes in, I guess you're thinking Rat is trying to force some sort of distance between their reads here but also feeling like they're taking direction from Gimli? I can kinda see how you might think that but I've been feeling pretty good about Rat and Gimli so far, this doesn't feel like anything but a normal question to me without me trying to force your framework of suspicion upon it.

[Klick]

@Radical Rat

From the perspective of someone who knows I have a town Role PM here, let me provide the alternative hypothesis:

'Sketchy as hell with internal inconsistencies' is a common description of my early play over probably a majority of my recent games (though I contest the 'internal inconsistencies' part and posit that it's a result of a legitimately natural thought process). It's partly an active choice. There's a rationale behind it, primarily designed to produce the kind of early game content I'm seeking out. This is observable in several of my more recent games. I choose to be slightly esoteric early on often.

The players you see defending me have recent experience with me and are more familiar with my town play. They are looking at my play through a lens that recognises some parts of what I am doing and how it's beneficial, or at least how I view it as beneficial. That's why they're saying 'solving' and 'analysis' and you're saying 'what?'.

Could they specifically be the Followers to my Kira, defending me because I'm aligned with them and also happen to be players who are familiar with me and have an understanding of my play? Sure. But the 'understanding of my play' part is sufficient to explain their behaviour without them being aligned with me.

I also think your concept of what Followers would be doing with Kira doesn't make that much sense. Just a flat defense of Kira's play to any sort of criticism in the early game? It doesn't feel like that should be confidence-inspiring.

[Aureal]

I thought the push on HPE was weak, and expressed as much, but what stuck out to me was your insistence on it being a red herring, and your supposition that Action Dan was Kira based on basically nothing. I wanted to wait and see how things developed, and then they just got worse.

Your reaction to HPE claiming a shitpost seemed to indicate you thought it WAS signaling Kira, but that doesn't quite align with your red herring claim earlier. I thought perhaps you might have been a Follower either misdirecting to protect Gimli, perhaps assuming HPE was the other partner and being worried someone else would interpret that as a signal, or potentially Dan's Follower, trying to do a reverse psychology, which would explain why you never actually voted Dan.

But then Gimli's suggestion that Kira won't look scummy combined with you being absent from his PoE pool due to "investigative depth" that doesn't exist, with you yourself describing your reads as vibe-based, made all of the pieces Klick into place.

You jumped at HPE because, as Kira, you're looking for these signals, and having seen something that you think looks like a signal but directed towards someone else, you tried to push that narrative. No matter whether it lands on Gimli or Dan, it's not you. Gimli's oddities would put him as a strong Follower candidate, and then Dragon immediately jumping on me as soon as I suggested I thought you were Kira... well I think he's overplayed the hand now.

So I suppose to answer your question, Klick, what I'm looking for... is justice.

I am a little surprised you don't see the play Klick was making with the suspicion of ActionDan, but I'm pretty sure I get it now and I'm on basically the same page as Klick. Dan could well be Kira, I've got poor vibes about him too, but I think Klick was less concerned initially about whether that was actually the case than about what reactions he would get by acting like he thought it was. I'm seeing enough "investigative depth" here from Klick, I don't think it's weird Gimli would too and leave him out of his PoE. Mine was about the same.

[Radical Rat]

In Gimli's case, it's that his assessment of your actions was inconsistent with your own. Like it was a prepared thing he had to say, that didn't actually line up with what was happening.

For Dragon, it's the hypersensitivity. As soon as I voted you, suddenly I must be scum and my prodding at Gimli to determine his relationship with you is actually because he's my buddy. Didn't even try to ask questions and see if there's anything behind my push, just straight to the chainsaw. This is something that scum will frequently do by mistake with their partners in regular games, and is exacerbated here by the importance of keeping Kira specifically alive. It is also something I see scum get away with as "too scummy to be scum," which is never a concept I've been fond of.

When I initially voted you, it was a suspicion. When Dragon jumped on me for it, it was a confirmation.

[CUDDLE TIME]

Okay, as promised, here's my process:

I've been townreading Klick for a while now (perhaps for bad reasons, but with his posting I feel I'm more likely to be right for the wrong reasons than just wrong). I've also concluded that T-Bone is town and that Drew is not Kira regardless of his alignment. I've thought Hu Tao was scummy but her play makes sense more as scummy town than as Kira IMO (but not letting her off the hook completely). So that leaves a pool of Aureal/Gimli/RR/AD/HPE. This pool doesn't necessarily contain all scum but I do think it contains Kira.

I've been wanting to townread almost every single post that Gimli made this game, because they are (at least on surface level) towny posts, because they look pretty solvy. However I don't really think any of them are posts that couldn't be faked by scum, especially uninformed scum (I.E. Kira). Additionally, Thomith pointed out in the hydra PT and I agree with this, some posts feel like solving for the sake of solving without thought process behind them / fake solving, for example:
in 107/108/109, Gimli is scumreading Klick for posting something irrelevant to what was said (?)
In 246, Gimli is liking "Klick's evaluation of HPE", except at that point Klick has written 0 evaluation of HPE (???) (like I guess he could've meant "I think HPE is follower, not Kira" which is also what I was thinking, and this possibility is also why I didn't really vote Gimli back then or say anything)
And in general I think he puts a lot more effort this game into looking like he has reads than in actually forming reads? Because I just don't see the thought process in his posts all that much (I do see SOME process, I just feel it's lacking)

Well anyway, this explains why Gimli was on my Kira shortlist more than why I voted him. The reason I voted him was this:

I want to remove hu tao from d1 pool and work with (AD, RR, HPE, tbone)

as for HPE: is there any slot defending it? does it have potential followers?

Why hu tao?

- A

I enjoyed the flow of hu tao's latter posting with aureal and agree with the town lean on drew, I can see where both stances are coming from

granted it's thin

scumpool of (RR, AD, hu tao, HPE, tbone) seems fine for d1

@klick: can you elaborate on AD = kira read?

every other slot in my pool seems to be more inviting as a potential kira flip than HPE, from how I expect kira to play

What's made you rule out Klick?

I'm never flipping klick on d1 regardless (no this isn't signaling (neither is this (ad infinitum)))

I feel like his stances are closely aligned with how I feel about players which is good, and his read on HPE has investigative depth that could be harder to think of when scum

You sure you haven't confused Klick with someone else? Because I'm not seeing any of this "investigative depth"

In fact, Klick is on my short list of potential Kiras. I've just been waiting for the right moment to switch my vote, and it seems I've found it.

VOTE: Klick

To me, Gimli's explanation of his reads in posts 309/313/318 felt somewhat off, and I thought that it would make sense for Rat, given their incredulity at Gimli's read of Klick, to go after Gimli actually (because GImli having a weird and from Rat's POV unjustified/completely wrong read should be questioned with more than "are you sure you didn't confuse Klick with someone else?"), instead of using said incredulity as a pivot for suddenly voting Klick. It just struck me as a contrived/unnatural progression and made me think GImli could be Kira with Rat as a follower.

Reading Aureal's post: yes, jarring is exactly the word to describe that pivot.

- Dragon

[CUDDLE TIME]

In Gimli's case, it's that his assessment of your actions was inconsistent with your own. Like it was a prepared thing he had to say, that didn't actually line up with what was happening.

For Dragon, it's the hypersensitivity. As soon as I voted you, suddenly I must be scum and my prodding at Gimli to determine his relationship with you is actually because he's my buddy. Didn't even try to ask questions and see if there's anything behind my push, just straight to the chainsaw. This is something that scum will frequently do by mistake with their partners in regular games, and is exacerbated here by the importance of keeping Kira specifically alive. It is also something I see scum get away with as "too scummy to be scum," which is never a concept I've been fond of.

When I initially voted you, it was a suspicion. When Dragon jumped on me for it, it was a confirmation.

I don't believe you actually think I'd chainsaw Kira so obviously here and without any reasoning even. I didn't jump on you for the vote on Klick, I "jumped on you" for the lack of vote on Gimli. And actually I jumped on Gimli, I'm not even scumreading you directly. So your presentation is false.

- Dragon