In post 2074, Junpei wrote:I'm not sure why you're getting so upset over this, I just stated a concern, and you're getting defensive in a tone.
Not defensive, merely annoyed. It's irritating to me hat I can't give this game the full attention that I want to and even more so that people are finding that fact suspicious when it's really not in my control right now.
In post 2074, Junpei wrote:Anyway, how am I supposed to know that you planned to comment on the case and rebuttal today? I cannot read your mind.
But you can read my posts and see that I've stated when I am free.
In post 2074, Junpei wrote:In addition, yes it would appear that you still find cobbler to be scum, however that doesn't change my desire to want to hear your specific thoughts on the case and the rebuttal.
And of course I didn't think it would when you specifically asked for everyone's thoughts. But you specifically singled me out when plenty of others have made little to no actual comment on the case against Cobbler or his rebuttal. You see why that might vex me?
I've actually been on everyone to respond to the case. Read my last dozen or so posts.
Nonetheless, if you've read the case, I'd appreciate it if in the time you'd dedicate to the thread, start writing thoughts on it and the rebuttal. I will stop asking for activity from you I suppose but it's just that you aren't expecting to be ready to post again until the deadline is up... we need your thoughts before the lynch...
The melody of logic always plays the notes of truth.
In post 2076, Junpei wrote:I've actually been on everyone to respond to the case. Read my last dozen or so posts.
Yes, but how many of those people did you call scum or scummy for it? Nonetheless, it's the past now and my annoyance is quelled, so we'll leave it at that.
In post 2076, Junpei wrote:Nonetheless, if you've read the case, I'd appreciate it if in the time you'd dedicate to the thread, start writing thoughts on it and the rebuttal. I will stop asking for activity from you I suppose but it's just that you aren't expecting to be ready to post again until the deadline is up... we need your thoughts before the lynch...
That's not completely true. As I said, I keep an eye on the thread throughout the week. If something I feel needs comment arises before the deadline, I am willing to lose a few hours of sleep to comment on it. Trust me when I say that no matter how busy I am, I'm not going to let important issues lie. That said, I don't see a Cobbler lynch on the horizon today (real life days), so you can expect my response today and hopefully it might help sway one or two of the remaining people.
Now, I've tried to be pretty tolerant of those trying to be funny in the game. It's part of why I play, sometimes I laugh so hard I pee a little. And when that happens, I feel the need to reciprocate. I apologize if my attempts at humor have failed to amuse...I'll try to tone that down in the future. [/punch&pie]
@Junpei: Think what you want about my intentions. I'm trying to get the scummiest player in the game (imo) lynched. Period. It's part of the game. I appreciate that you appreciate my earlier posts, but honestly if you don't like my later posts, that's just fine too. But if your read on ME has changed solely based on A) my jokes and B) my post to Muffin, then I don't know what to say. Just hang in there, that's all I ask.
Hikari's posts early on made me think town, and in spite of his low posts, I'm still getting that vibe. I look forward to his response to my case as well. Just my 2 cents.
I'm not going to go too deep into the Cobbler case because I think its almost entirely based on semantics and null tells. Cobbler's responses and more importantly the
tone
of his responses seem town to me. That means more to me than any of the logic presented to this point.
The whole Cobbler case is "x, y, and z are scumtells" "no they are not" "yes they are" ad infinitum.
Even if Cobbler is scum here, it wouldn't be validation of the case being logically condemning.
Until you go point by point explaining how each is a nulltell I won't believe you as I see scum tells. The cobbler case is well built, and the fact that he is responding to scum tells as "no they are not" is telling if you are wrong.
The melody of logic always plays the notes of truth.
In post 2081, Junpei wrote:Until you go point by point explaining how each is a nulltell I won't believe you as I see scum tells. The cobbler case is well built, and the fact that he is responding to scum tells as "no they are not" is telling if you are wrong.
A nulltell is a tell that both scum and town can do. Let's go through the points you thought were valid and see how many of them are null:
In post 2062, Junpei wrote:
Cobblerfone's first point isn't even a direct answer to the argument laid out by VisceraEyes, he definitely contradicted himself and Viscera's point remains valid.
(I'm assuming this refers to the "Never seen lurker scum comment") Forgetting or not agreeing or a combination of both is not a scumtell, and is not unbelievable. I know, because it's a fact.
Junpei wrote:
Cobblerfone's second point is basically him saying his personality is waffling, which isn't a personality, that is covering for a scumtell by saying something is that we can't ever prove isn't (or is, for that matter). Secondly, the issue here cobbler is that you had a town read on someone "so large that you can blatantly defend them before page 1 is over", and you stalled your reasoning on it. Then when you finally did reason it, it was a small town tell, if that even. I believe you're talking about this as his brashness (how is that a display of brashness?) and this as his single post Fos (how is that a town tell?). This is a poor reason, and Viscera's point remains valid.
Viscera contradicts himself on this point later where he then says that I'm scum because I called another player scum for using an awful towntell, but using a poor (in your opinion) towntell, (especially in RVS) is not a scumtell. Hmm... Ya know, I just noticed something.
Junpei wrote:
Cobblerfone's third point is poor as well. He is saying that he also sees what kcdaspot sees in PM's answers to 3 and 4 (I highly disagree that there was anything wrong with them, but that aside...) cobbler never explained why they were wrong. For those of you who have forgotten, these were PM's answers. There is nothing really wrong with them at all, in fact there is nothing to really say about them. Later, kcdaspot elaborates that he means it is the tone and that while Links' answers weren't trying to be friendly, PM is. Which, is completely stupid. It isn't a matter of opinion, cobbler, it is a matter of fact. Viscera's point remains valid.
Junpei wrote:
Cobblerfone's fourth point is that he remembers that there was a certain scum who was townish, but not that there was a certain scum that was lurking, even though he commented on the latter in game. I don't buy it, Viscera's point remains valid
Which playstyle am I more likely to remember and place more significance on: The guy who's too towny-to-be-town scum that posts HUGE walls, or lurker scum who actually does post regularly? I mean, it's not like he prod-dodged all the time. He didn't did he?
Junpei wrote:
Cobblerfone's sixth point isn't something I agree with because it is elaborating on a point that didn't need to be elaborated on, and he does it in a second post, for no reason. But it isn't that big of a deal, and unless viscera was planning on posting libraries of fluff from cobblerfone, it isn't necessary to the case.
I posted it in a second post because I realized that I better explain myself. Again, null.
2. How did he contradict himself? Seems like you were the one who contradicted yourself.
3. Well if I"m about to make a proclamation such as "never seen lurking scum", I would have to be certain about it, or close to certain.
1. I'm so tired of this point I decided to look it up to see if it's even correct. During D1 in that game posted at least once every day, while frequently skipping one day. The longest he went without posting was four days, which happened once.
2. Yes, I acknowledged that, he still contradicts himself with point ten.
Okay, let's see... Point seven, I think that's the ending the day sooner:
I saw a long D1 suck the life out of the town and the game in Newbie 1116. Naturally, I didn't want the same to happen here. And in my opinion, it has.
Junpei wrote:2. How did he contradict himself? Seems like you were the one who contradicted yourself.
Also, it's less a contradiction, more of a realization. I still think KJ used a scummy towntell. But that's what makes "tells" so imperfect to begin with. You can't really generalize, you have to go situation to situation. Especially since KJ and I used different "towntells" anyway.
I'm going to preface this by saying that by opening the following spoiler, you agree to read THE ENTIRE THING. I will NOT be including a "tl;dr" to that end. You will READ my case, and you'll VOTE for Cobbler. It's long. And guess what...it's got stuff from d1 in it (I think.) You HAVE been warned.
PLEASE take the time to read it, as I feel it's far and away the best case against scum in the thread right now. In the spirit of clarity, I highlighted a few of Kcda's gems in here too.
. Now tell me why you're fishing for what the town finds scummy?
PREVIEW: I had no idea that when I joined Ninja Mafia that it would be so literal.
Why do you play mafia?
For fun, and a challenge.
Why are you not scum?
Cause of my role PM and because of the actions I'll take in the future.
What will you be known for this game?
:shrug:
The bolded is a blatant lie. I was in a game with Cobbler where he was town (My meta analysis will follow my case) and I was scum. My partner was a supernewb and lurked HARD the ENTIRE GAME. I was able to keep suspicion off him for the most part, we swept town [/flex] but the fact remains, he lurked. IIRC, Cobbler even called him out on it a couple times...gotta check my FAX tho.
Link wrote:I don't think it is particularly uncommon to ask about what people consider scumtells. It's actually a good tool for keeping players honest. If you answer one way and then try to use the tell another way later, it's definitely scummy. Any tool that can be used to find inconsistencies is good.
That makes sense.
Too bad
you answered it instead of matt.
Still,
that's a plausible town-motive.
Still,
I'm noting this.
Though,
you also defended me in the same way, so it's less notable.
Unvote
Yeah, I feel like we're already out of RVS so I'll just tell you why I have a town-read on Kcda:
His brashness and how he went and made a FOS in its own little post
. Now this isn't the most clear explanation,
but you see what the heart of the reason is, right?
There are a couple of things I don't like about this post. First, notice how infirm he is on any kind of opinion he might have.
Though,
he could just be intimidated in this big game.
Still,
that doesn't excuse not taking a stance on the matter.
Though,
I guess it could just be d1 paranoia.
Too bad
we don't know who we can trust.
But you see what I'm saying, right?
Second, THIS was what he was withholding from town until RVS was over. That he thinks Kcda is town because he FoS'd someone. Really. Honestly, read it again. I even italicized it to set it apart. WHY would he need to wait until RVS is over to say that? There's no good reason. It reads like it's something he saw some townie do with a town motivation in a different game. It stinks. I don't like it.
projectmatt wrote:The largest flaw in KDCA's scumhunting is that he is using my "tone" as an argument as to why I am sided with the mafia.
Then why are you sided with the mafia? I see what Kc sees. I hope I can get a more solid scumread later but now:
Vote: projectmatt
again.
What I don't like about this post (AND Kc's for that matter) is this. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that those four 'getting to know you' questions will help town find scum. Period. Nothing in the content of the questions OR the possible answers will do ANYTHING to help town find scum. Period. Yet they're buddying up early on saying that PM is scum based on his answers. Ridiculous. And Scummy.
BBmolla wrote:BTW, just so everyone's aware, we have 6 MLs and 1 NL until MYLO/LYLO.
And my timezone is PST I think.
lynch.
him.
now.
Remember what i was on about? trying to SEEM town? TAKE A WILD GUESS AT WHAT THE BOLDED IS DOING.
Take a wild guess at what the bolded is doing. Oh wait, this is a Cobbler Case.
In post 182, Cobblerfone wrote:@Maruchan: Please explain your, shall I say, "hyperness"? I know you have a lot of things to respond to,
but it does remind me of a certain scum that also seemed extremely townish. Tomie knows what I'm talking about.
Link wrote:Cobblefone: "Mind-pressure" vote seemed pretty shady, like it was an excuse to not look like sheeping, as others have said. Also, a flag goes up in my head whenever I read this sort of argument. It's clear misrepresentation of someone's words. It's not like actual scum are going to come out and actually say "I'm not scum for that reason." It's not like there is some rule that requires them to make only true statements, so why would scum word something in such a way? And this excuse here uses the same logic. Scum are not required to tell the truth.
Scum-slips are all in the wordings, mate.
Project wrote:Cobblerfone: Scum based off of the wall I posted and his lack of reaction.
Excuse me if I like to keep my posts wider than they are tall. Plus, I knew that if I refuted your case "point by point" it would lead to back and forth tunneling posts.
First of all, bolded is proof positive that Cobbler lied about my first point. He specifically remembers that game (it wasn't long ago.) Tomie was in it too...she was the doctor and I SMOKED her (Sorry Tomie, wish you were still here...this game needs ur uber-detectivity)
As for the italicized bit, he's attempting to justify his lack of defense against a reasonable (in my opinion) case against him.
8 posts with a lot of fluff, a lot of reads going around and nothing else.
Yeah cobbler is scum
1st 2nd and forth posts scummy, shaky null on ISO 4, ISO's 5-8 scummy. but his 2 latest read town to me. not enough to shake a scum read but hey.
BUUUUUT Molla is lynch now.
just read iso 1 onwards.
More Kcda distancing from Cobbler...it becomes harder later as they both attempt to forward the scum agenda together.
In post 483, Cobblerfone wrote:While I always like anti-scum WIFOM, there's just too much that can go wrong.
----
Link wrote:First of all, what is wrong with 18 pages? Really, I think it's kind of short. More players equates to more pages, I'd imagine. i can't really see why he would be opposed to discussion that helps us find scum and see where everybody's head is at. I have the same problem with Empking's response in support of this. Finding the best possible lynch is always preferable to the easiest or fastest lynch, I believe.
Me wrote:VOTE: Hiplop
To follow my own advice.
So basically, he just created a "legitimate" reason for himself to jump on the hiplop wagon.
Me wrote:Thoughts on Projectmatt and hiplop:
Hiplop is only scum if project is. There's no reason to randomly call a building wagon town if Hip is scum and the wagon is town.
So basically, he's jumping on a wagon that he apparently doesn't even necessarily think is scum.
Me wrote:After my experience with Muffin I'm willing to sheep the Hiplop vote.
And even outright admits it.
1: 18 pages is not "the end". It's the signal that we should start wrapping things up. With 18 players it'll take a few pages to settle down.
2: I'm surprised you didn't call me out on not jumping on Molla instead.
3: I trust Muffin's scumread over my townread.
Reverse WIFOM? Really? Honestly? Those were ALL valid points against you Cobbler, and REVERSE WIFOM is the best defense you can think of?
Me wrote:While I always like anti-scum WIFOM, there's just too much that can go wrong.
To elaborate: Suppose a goon/roleblocker, the doc, and the watcher all target the cop. Now the Watcher risks exposing the doc and himself, possibly getting the doc lynched and himself nightkilled. We do get one scum lynched, but we lose
two
PRs. Three if you count the cop. And if we have four there's a ninja that makes the fourth useless anyway.
This post is useless. Fluff. Pointless. AND scummy.
Link wrote:1. I've seen Day 1s with less players go on for longer. I think the number of pages signifies nothing. The reason we have a certain amount of time is so that we can use it.
And how many of those games ended in a town win? Taking too much time can suck the life out of town.
Link wrote:3. So you trust zMuffinMan, who took about a week to read the thread and apparently can't be arsed to post much more than a scum read on one of the most popular wagons of the day, over yourself?
Enough for a D1 lynch.
Kcda wrote:@muffin: i think meta is a terrible arguement...
Meta is the best argument.
This is one of the first posts indicating that Cobbler is more interested in lynching than he is in actually lynching SCUM. It's scummy behavior. Why WOULDN'T you want all the time necessary to pick the BEST lynch? You've had misgivings about ALL your reads, you said so yourself that you don't really trust your reads. He's trying to end the day because he knows that town is the most popular wagon and he wants to secure a mislynch.
See? And to think if the day was over, you wouldn't have had this opportunity to pick someone more scummy. Now what was all that 'let's end the day already' nonsense?
Cobblerfone wrote:
Thoughts on Projectmatt and hiplop:
Hiplop is only scum if project is. There's no reason to randomly call a building wagon town if Hip is scum and the wagon is town.
Post 297, page 12. Nothing that appears terrible at first. He got me as a town read, which means that he believes hiplop is town. Pairing us up as scum was pushing us, but calling us both town because of something town I did really makes no sense. Stay tuned for futher contradictions.
Cobblerfone wrote:
@Projectmatt: No, of course it isn't vice-versa. I'd prefer if the people on Hiplop voted you or Maruchan. Or, that's what I wrote in this response, but after I read that exchange between you and Kc,
I think you're town
, meaning hiplop is probably lazy-town (or incredibly weird scum).
Post 397, two posts after Cobbler's "hiplop is town" thing. Just a straight up contradiction after calling hiplop town. Go re-read his "experience" with Muffin. It's on page 16. It makes no sense for his mind to be sporadically changed.
Did I have a town read on you at that point? I'm pretty sure I didn't.
What about that bolded bit? That came directly from one of your posts.
In post 1186, Cobblerfone wrote:@Projectmatt: I checked my ISO; there is no indication that I thought you were town at that point.
In post 1774, killerjester wrote:However, I put zMM as scummier on my list with very similar intentions. The first person to question it, "Hey! You never said zMM was any scummier until just now! What gives?" would prove they are reading the thread closely. This one worked out as intended, and as a result I find Junpei to be all but confirmed town. If everyone really hates how I'm doing this though, I'll stop.
You're saying you did a scummish thing on purpose to find out who's paying attention. Despite the fact that the
mafia would be looking for any scummy thing at all to latch onto that they can use.
I'm not buying it. For one it's anti-town in a way that I can't see town doing, for two it doesn't make any sense at all. Paying attention does not confirm someone as town. Especially since you've already done a "test" that could put the mafia on their toes.
How is coming out with a plan that successfully netted him someone who's by his estimation now confirmed town? And no one even had to die to confirm it! Why are you so against someone reading someone else as town? And further, why do you care how he plays the game? It's not like he tried to derail one of your wagons, or is suspecting you in any way, or did anything to harm town. This is a classic example of exactly what he's talking about. Mafia looking for any scummy thing at all to latch onto that they can use.
What's amazing is that he's still alive...and still acting scummy. It's time for him to go guys. Cobbler, it sucks that we haven't gotten to play on the same team yet. Maybe next time bro.
Each number corresponds to a response to a quote.
1. A fine point if true.
2. The way the point is presented is confusing at best but Cobbler's town read reasoning was bad.
3. I don't really agree with the first part of this point. It's just unnecessary nitpicking of his wording. The second part is solid though and I agree with it.
4. Again, this is a quote I take issue with, but my reasoning differs. The answers have the potential to help determine things about people, but what I'm more concerned with is how he worded it as though pm was admitting to being sided with thew Mafia. My thoughts on that type of reasoning should be abundantly clear by now.
5. That has nothing to do with Cobbler, so I'll just say that I don't agree with the reasoning from Kc there.
6. This is another fine point against him, the latter part particularly.
7-10. Again, not Cobbler, but 7 and 8 in particular do seem worrisome out of context, but that assumes one skips over #173, where Kc elaborates that he meant the hiplop wagon. The rest of the posts seem to be predicated on that flawed premise.
11. I hold that my point remains valid, but the argument here is invalid. The responses from Cobbler there still seem ad to me too.
12. Don't see how it s scummy, unless stating the obvious is scummy.
13. I agree with this point as well.
14. I'm confused by this pont. Is it a drect reponse to the previous one?
15. This a ridiculous contradiction and I can't believe I never noticed it.
16. Same point. If anything, it only reinforces it.
17. While I still don't approve of the method, at the same time I don't think the reason stated by Cobbler is what makes the tests scummy.
Ray Montano wrote:That case is crap. It doesn't mean anything. If you can actually put statements side by side and point how they directly contradict each other then there'd be something of substance there. But there isn't, so you're not building it. Because there's nothing to be built upon.
You're throwing a case to throw a case out there and pull a wagon on someone just to create a wagon.
That's not pro-town and it would be a terrible way for a town player to play.
Just to reinforce this,
Kcdaspot wrote:Ray is getting scummy. I hate 131 with a passion.
My PM wagon is dead so...
VOTE: BBMolla
only wall? "everyone is town."
NOPE.
KCDA is just jumping wagon to wagon trying to get anyone lynched but himself.
BTW i'm weaker than this?
Really?
Considering his case is untrue (
you've been an early voter, if not the first vote on all wagons IIRC
) then yeah of course your case is stronger. I can lynch Molla as a compromise lynch. I still prefer Maruchan. I especially didn't like his "woe is me" type post about messing up the quotes.
Buddying Kcda by saying...what? That someone is wrong that Kcda is jumping from suspect to suspect by saying that he's...jumping from suspect....to suspect....
I interpretted that post differently, as Cobbler stating that Kc wasn't jumping from popular bandwagon to popular bandwagon, bu rather starting the bandwagons.
. Now tell me why you're fishing for what the town finds scummy?
PREVIEW: I had no idea that when I joined Ninja Mafia that it would be so literal.
Why do you play mafia?
For fun, and a challenge.
Why are you not scum?
Cause of my role PM and because of the actions I'll take in the future.
What will you be known for this game?
:shrug:
The bolded is a blatant lie. I was in a game with Cobbler where he was town (My meta analysis will follow my case) and I was scum. My partner was a supernewb and lurked HARD the ENTIRE GAME. I was able to keep suspicion off him for the most part, we swept town [/flex] but the fact remains, he lurked. IIRC, Cobbler even called him out on it a couple times...gotta check my FAX tho.
This has been covered. If other people think lurking is a scumtell I'm not going to be able to convince them it isn't. If I had a lurker teammate (and the game was in the early stages and I wouldn't know if I had one yet or not if I were scum) I wouldn't lie about my own experience, if I really wanted to influence the game I'd simply say that I didn't think it was. Further more, since this is a meta argument, why would I remove an oppurtunity to bus? I love zem buses.
Link wrote:I don't think it is particularly uncommon to ask about what people consider scumtells. It's actually a good tool for keeping players honest. If you answer one way and then try to use the tell another way later, it's definitely scummy. Any tool that can be used to find inconsistencies is good.
That makes sense.
Too bad
you answered it instead of matt.
Still,
that's a plausible town-motive.
Still,
I'm noting this.
Though,
you also defended me in the same way, so it's less notable.
Unvote
Yeah, I feel like we're already out of RVS so I'll just tell you why I have a town-read on Kcda:
His brashness and how he went and made a FOS in its own little post
. Now this isn't the most clear explanation,
but you see what the heart of the reason is, right?
There are a couple of things I don't like about this post. First, notice how infirm he is on any kind of opinion he might have.
Though,
he could just be intimidated in this big game.
Still,
that doesn't excuse not taking a stance on the matter.
Though,
I guess it could just be d1 paranoia.
Too bad
we don't know who we can trust.
But you see what I'm saying, right?
Second, THIS was what he was withholding from town until RVS was over. That he thinks Kcda is town because he FoS'd someone. Really. Honestly, read it again. I even italicized it to set it apart. WHY would he need to wait until RVS is over to say that? There's no good reason. It reads like it's something he saw some townie do with a town motivation in a different game. It stinks. I don't like it.
The first part is my personality. And again since this is partly meta, I think I'm more brash as scum anyway.
The second part has good reason on my end: If I didn't wait until RVS was over I wouldn't be able to use what I think was a towntell under the circumstances for anyone else. Scum could try to fake it, making it useless.
projectmatt wrote:The largest flaw in KDCA's scumhunting is that he is using my "tone" as an argument as to why I am sided with the mafia.
Then why are you sided with the mafia? I see what Kc sees. I hope I can get a more solid scumread later but now:
Vote: projectmatt
again.
What I don't like about this post (AND Kc's for that matter) is this. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that those four 'getting to know you' questions will help town find scum. Period. Nothing in the content of the questions OR the possible answers will do ANYTHING to help town find scum. Period. Yet they're buddying up early on saying that PM is scum based on his answers. Ridiculous. And Scummy.
Differences of opinion. What makes you think the questions and answers weren't able to do so? Now
In post 182, Cobblerfone wrote:@Maruchan: Please explain your, shall I say, "hyperness"? I know you have a lot of things to respond to,
but it does remind me of a certain scum that also seemed extremely townish. Tomie knows what I'm talking about.
Link wrote:Cobblefone: "Mind-pressure" vote seemed pretty shady, like it was an excuse to not look like sheeping, as others have said. Also, a flag goes up in my head whenever I read this sort of argument. It's clear misrepresentation of someone's words. It's not like actual scum are going to come out and actually say "I'm not scum for that reason." It's not like there is some rule that requires them to make only true statements, so why would scum word something in such a way? And this excuse here uses the same logic. Scum are not required to tell the truth.
Scum-slips are all in the wordings, mate.
Project wrote:Cobblerfone: Scum based off of the wall I posted and his lack of reaction.
Excuse me if I like to keep my posts wider than they are tall. Plus, I knew that if I refuted your case "point by point" it would lead to back and forth tunneling posts.
First of all, bolded is proof positive that Cobbler lied about my first point. He specifically remembers that game (it wasn't long ago.) Tomie was in it too...she was the doctor and I SMOKED her (Sorry Tomie, wish you were still here...this game needs ur uber-detectivity)
As for the italicized bit, he's attempting to justify his lack of defense against a reasonable (in my opinion) case against him.
I remember the game. Do you remember
exactly
what happened in the last three games you finished? Because there's two games between this one and Newbie 1116 for me. The italicized is what's happening between you and me right now. And it is friggin' annoying, it's reminding me of my first newbie game. And I hardly use "friggin'".
REMOVED KCDA QUOTES
In post 483, Cobblerfone wrote:While I always like anti-scum WIFOM, there's just too much that can go wrong.
----
Link wrote:First of all, what is wrong with 18 pages? Really, I think it's kind of short. More players equates to more pages, I'd imagine. i can't really see why he would be opposed to discussion that helps us find scum and see where everybody's head is at. I have the same problem with Empking's response in support of this. Finding the best possible lynch is always preferable to the easiest or fastest lynch, I believe.
Me wrote:VOTE: Hiplop
To follow my own advice.
So basically, he just created a "legitimate" reason for himself to jump on the hiplop wagon.
Me wrote:Thoughts on Projectmatt and hiplop:
Hiplop is only scum if project is. There's no reason to randomly call a building wagon town if Hip is scum and the wagon is town.
So basically, he's jumping on a wagon that he apparently doesn't even necessarily think is scum.
Me wrote:After my experience with Muffin I'm willing to sheep the Hiplop vote.
And even outright admits it.
1: 18 pages is not "the end". It's the signal that we should start wrapping things up. With 18 players it'll take a few pages to settle down.
2: I'm surprised you didn't call me out on not jumping on Molla instead.
3: I trust Muffin's scumread over my townread.
Reverse WIFOM? Really? Honestly? Those were ALL valid points against you Cobbler, and REVERSE WIFOM is the best defense you can think of?
I covered this. "Anti-scum WIFOM" refers to Quilford's post. That's why there's a dividing-bar there.
Me wrote:While I always like anti-scum WIFOM, there's just too much that can go wrong.
To elaborate: Suppose a goon/roleblocker, the doc, and the watcher all target the cop. Now the Watcher risks exposing the doc and himself, possibly getting the doc lynched and himself nightkilled. We do get one scum lynched, but we lose
two
PRs. Three if you count the cop. And if we have four there's a ninja that makes the fourth useless anyway.
This post is useless. Fluff. Pointless. AND scummy.
Why is it useless? It elaborated on a prior statement.
Link wrote:1. I've seen Day 1s with less players go on for longer. I think the number of pages signifies nothing. The reason we have a certain amount of time is so that we can use it.
And how many of those games ended in a town win? Taking too much time can suck the life out of town.
Link wrote:3. So you trust zMuffinMan, who took about a week to read the thread and apparently can't be arsed to post much more than a scum read on one of the most popular wagons of the day, over yourself?
Enough for a D1 lynch.
Kcda wrote:@muffin: i think meta is a terrible arguement...
Meta is the best argument.
This is one of the first posts indicating that Cobbler is more interested in lynching than he is in actually lynching SCUM. It's scummy behavior. Why WOULDN'T you want all the time necessary to pick the BEST lynch? You've had misgivings about ALL your reads, you said so yourself that you don't really trust your reads. He's trying to end the day because he knows that town is the most popular wagon and he wants to secure a mislynch.
BECAUSE OF NEWBIE 1116! GAH! THIS IS WHY I AM MAD AT YOU. MY READS ARE NOT LOCKED IN PLACE ONCE D1 ENDS. MY POSTS THIS DAY ARE PROOF ENOUGH.
See? And to think if the day was over, you wouldn't have had this opportunity to pick someone more scummy. Now what was all that 'let's end the day already' nonsense?
If his wagon hadn't gone up and instead we had lynched sooner, or if we had lynched him immediately on the next page, you wouldn't have had to have read all of these pages.
Cobblerfone wrote:
Thoughts on Projectmatt and hiplop:
Hiplop is only scum if project is. There's no reason to randomly call a building wagon town if Hip is scum and the wagon is town.
Post 297, page 12. Nothing that appears terrible at first. He got me as a town read, which means that he believes hiplop is town. Pairing us up as scum was pushing us, but calling us both town because of something town I did really makes no sense. Stay tuned for futher contradictions.
Cobblerfone wrote:
@Projectmatt: No, of course it isn't vice-versa. I'd prefer if the people on Hiplop voted you or Maruchan. Or, that's what I wrote in this response, but after I read that exchange between you and Kc,
I think you're town
, meaning hiplop is probably lazy-town (or incredibly weird scum).
Post 397, two posts after Cobbler's "hiplop is town" thing. Just a straight up contradiction after calling hiplop town. Go re-read his "experience" with Muffin. It's on page 16. It makes no sense for his mind to be sporadically changed.
Did I have a town read on you at that point? I'm pretty sure I didn't.
What about that bolded bit? That came directly from one of your posts.
In post 1186, Cobblerfone wrote:@Projectmatt: I checked my ISO; there is no indication that I thought you were town at that point.
Must not have read post #297. *shrug*
I blame the way he setup the quotes. It made it look like the quote on top was 297 and the bottom one was 397. In fact, once I'm done I'm going to see that actually is 297 and what is supposed to be contradictory.
In post 1774, killerjester wrote:However, I put zMM as scummier on my list with very similar intentions. The first person to question it, "Hey! You never said zMM was any scummier until just now! What gives?" would prove they are reading the thread closely. This one worked out as intended, and as a result I find Junpei to be all but confirmed town. If everyone really hates how I'm doing this though, I'll stop.
You're saying you did a scummish thing on purpose to find out who's paying attention. Despite the fact that the
mafia would be looking for any scummy thing at all to latch onto that they can use.
I'm not buying it. For one it's anti-town in a way that I can't see town doing, for two it doesn't make any sense at all. Paying attention does not confirm someone as town. Especially since you've already done a "test" that could put the mafia on their toes.
How is coming out with a plan that successfully netted him someone who's by his estimation now confirmed town? And no one even had to die to confirm it! Why are you so against someone reading someone else as town? And further, why do you care how he plays the game? It's not like he tried to derail one of your wagons, or is suspecting you in any way, or did anything to harm town. This is a classic example of exactly what he's talking about. Mafia looking for any scummy thing at all to latch onto that they can use.
Can I not question the method? Again if I said "My muffin had peanuts in it this morning. That means you have to be town." Would you not call me out on it. This is the scummiest point against you.
What's amazing is that he's still alive...and still acting scummy. It's time for him to go guys. Cobbler, it sucks that we haven't gotten to play on the same team yet. Maybe next time bro.
Look at him, being all coy because he
knows
we're not on the same team.
Same format as above.
1. I don't understand, is this supposed to be a response to his argument or did you just want to say some stuff?
2. Because that was
such
a strong tell that you had to keep it under your hat, right?
3. That isn't even the point.
4. Did this have a point?
5. Already covered this.
6. Not scummy, as previously stated, only unnecessary.
7. This does nothing to answer the case against you, it's just seemingly random yelling.
8. I fail to see your point here. Less content is good? Sure, this might be a slightly hellish process, but we have a lot of content from most that can prove quite useful later n the game.
9. I don't see your point. The numbering is confusing, but the contradiction is still there.
10. Your reasoning for questioning the method is what is questionable.
In post 1999, VisceraEyes wrote:Ask and ye shall receive. His case and responses are spoilered out for clarity's sake. Each of his points have a roman numeral that corresponds to my response on the bottom.
I) He missed the mark entirely in defending this point. I was pointing out that he was lying. I don't care who does or doesn't think lurking is a scum tell. The fact of the matter is that he lied to town saying he'd never experienced lurker scum, in my opinion to further his agenda.
I. Did. Not. Lie. Explain how this post (lie or not) can further this "agenda" of which you speak.
II) Whether it's part of his personality or not, it's a known fact that scum, unless they're extremely good, will flounder around and refuse to commit to opinions about even the most trivial of things. In this case, he was floundering around about 'taking note' of something. Seriously? And for the record, someone commenting on their own meta is meaningless because if they're scum, they could just be lying or deliberately leaving out parts.
So if you use meta on player how can they defend themselves without meta? (I believe I used the wrong word to describe my scumself anyway, I'm not brash, more like firm?)
The second part isn't a good reason at all. First, RVS is RANDOM VOTING STAGE…meaning that even scum aren't trying to 'drop town tells' or anything because everyone's vote is 'random' and it doesn't matter what we do. And furthermore, what's to stop scum from using that 'town-tell' (which, by the way, is still "he FoS'd someone in its own post") the rest of the game? It's nonsense.
It wasn't a vote. It wasn't random. Who's ever heard of a random FoS? It's only a towntell for RVS really.
IV) Actually, yes…I remember what's happened in all the games I've been in, scum OR town. It's part of playing the game…you have to remember
certain
things in order to be successful.
That's part of recognizing patterns. But very few people have a perfect memory. Especially if it was of something they disliked.
VI) I find it telling that you removed the Kcda quotes in spite of the fact that I left them in there. Why not leave them in there and be like 'WTF are these Kcda quotes doing in a case against me?' My guess? Because you didn't want a connection to be drawn between you and Kcda, but didn't want to be accused of altering my case…so you removed the quotes and indicated specifically that you did so…allowing town to draw their own conclusions.
I removed them because they have nothing to do with me. There is no connection between me and Kcda. Your points about the supposed connection between me and him are pretty meh-filler.
VII) While it's true that I thought anti-scum WIFOM was part of your defense against those points, the fact remains that you didn't defend against those points at all. For instance, WHY should we start wrapping things up at 18 pages on d1? And how in the [heck] is admitting that you sheeped Muffin a defense against someone claiming you admitted that you sheeped Muffin?
1) Because long days drain the life out of the town and the game in general.
2) What defense? Sheeping ain't a scumtell.
3) I am not scum. See point 2.
VIII) And in what way was the original post helpful in any way? It looks to me like you're trying to look like you're contributing when you're not contributing anything at all.
No it was an afterthought. This is not a good point, my post was not a scumtell in any way.
IX) My point was that he was more interested in lynching and ending the day than he was in actually finding scum. Do you see a defense of that point anywhere? All I see is him defending why he wanted to end the day. Nothing about 'No, I thought my read was accurate and was pushing to get him lynched'. Just 'Yeah, I wanted to end the day…and I'm mad at YOU about it! GRRRRRZ AtE GRRRRRZZZ
Yes, I wanted to end the day. Long days drain the life out of town; they're more detrimental than a mislynch. And if they're combined with a mislynch it made it pointless.
X) Actually, I would, because these pages would have been taken up with the following day and I'd still have to read them. Because I'm town. That's what town does. Reads the whole thread and finds the most likely scum candidate based on WHAT HE'S READ.
1) No, because the pages wouldn't exist.
2) No, that's what dedicated players do, town or scum. It doesn't make sense for scum to not read the thread anymore than for town. Heck, we've had discussion on the amished-tell which involves scum reading things that town supposedly don't.
XI) I blame the fact that you were lying to town TWICE. You've been caught in a contradiction. Call it what it is. You told town that you never thought PM was town. You then lied and said that you ISO'd yourself and that in fact you never stated as much in thread. Which was a lie. As I illustrated. I don't care how his QUOTES lined up, you said you ISO'd yourself. That was a lie. How was
I
able to find it when I didn't even say it?
I honestly don't remember if we had the "real" numbers in ISOs yet or if I just didn't look. I read up to the top quote. I didn't have a town read up to that quote. I did not lie.
XII) Please, do so. Ask him why he did it that way. Ask him how the fact that he did it that way gave him that read. I'm all about that. But you didn't do that. You called him scummy for it. EXACTLY WHAT YOU WERE SAYING HE WAS PLAYING INTO.
Um. Didn't I? I asked him if that specific thing gave him a read, he answered, I said no that doesn't make sense, and he was free to respond with how it makes sense.
1. Well for starters it could be a way for you to reasonably deny the danger of lurker scum. If you've never experienced it, you wouldn't know how deadly it can be.
2. Well you could provide actual examples of your meta and let people judge whether or not it is true. But you could just as easily play against your own meta in that sense. But just saying that something is your meta is not a great argument. What you can do though is prove a meta argument against you wrong by presenting a counter-point from your previous experience.
3. How is an FoS during RVS a town tell though? If he has a vote down, it either means he's got two suspicions that early and it's not a random vote so your point is moot or he is leaving a random vote while he has somebody he actually suspects.
4. But it's impossible for us to tell what you remember or not, we know only what you say and what you said was that you had never experienced lurker scum, which is untrue apparently and all we have is your word that you forgot it happened.
5. I'm actually inclined to agree here. The connections presented are weak at best.
6.1. But they are sometimes necessary to come to the right conclusion.
6.2. It most certainly can be.
6.3. That's debatable, as seen here.
7. Agreed.
8. Completely disagreed. There is so much to be gained from a long day, because there is so much content. Ending in a mislynch doesn't make t pointless because now you can look back and see what wagons were derailed and by who and which people were most vocal in the mislynch and how valid there reasons were, etc.
9.1. That's debatable. Considering when he replaced in, we'd probably have approximately the same amount of pages, though we might be on a later day.
9.2. I can't completely argue against that, but I generally believe that town tend to put more effort into their reading overall, because they need to actually find scum and make cases against them. Scum need only get a general idea of what is going on and jump on a popular wagon when replacing in. At least, that's how I see it.
10. We did have real numbers at that point, because we've had them at least as long as I've been playing. Why would you only read up to the top quote?
In post 2081, Junpei wrote:Until you go point by point explaining how each is a nulltell I won't believe you as I see scum tells. The cobbler case is well built, and the fact that he is responding to scum tells as "no they are not" is telling if you are wrong.
A nulltell is a tell that both scum and town can do. Let's go through the points you thought were valid and see how many of them are null:
In post 2062, Junpei wrote:
Cobblerfone's first point isn't even a direct answer to the argument laid out by VisceraEyes, he definitely contradicted himself and Viscera's point remains valid.
(I'm assuming this refers to the "Never seen lurker scum comment") Forgetting or not agreeing or a combination of both is not a scumtell, and is not unbelievable. I know, because it's a fact.
Junpei wrote:
Cobblerfone's second point is basically him saying his personality is waffling, which isn't a personality, that is covering for a scumtell by saying something is that we can't ever prove isn't (or is, for that matter). Secondly, the issue here cobbler is that you had a town read on someone "so large that you can blatantly defend them before page 1 is over", and you stalled your reasoning on it. Then when you finally did reason it, it was a small town tell, if that even. I believe you're talking about this as his brashness (how is that a display of brashness?) and this as his single post Fos (how is that a town tell?). This is a poor reason, and Viscera's point remains valid.
Viscera contradicts himself on this point later where he then says that I'm scum because I called another player scum for using an awful towntell, but using a poor (in your opinion) towntell, (especially in RVS) is not a scumtell. Hmm... Ya know, I just noticed something.
Junpei wrote:
Cobblerfone's third point is poor as well. He is saying that he also sees what kcdaspot sees in PM's answers to 3 and 4 (I highly disagree that there was anything wrong with them, but that aside...) cobbler never explained why they were wrong. For those of you who have forgotten, these were PM's answers. There is nothing really wrong with them at all, in fact there is nothing to really say about them. Later, kcdaspot elaborates that he means it is the tone and that while Links' answers weren't trying to be friendly, PM is. Which, is completely stupid. It isn't a matter of opinion, cobbler, it is a matter of fact. Viscera's point remains valid.
Junpei wrote:
Cobblerfone's fourth point is that he remembers that there was a certain scum who was townish, but not that there was a certain scum that was lurking, even though he commented on the latter in game. I don't buy it, Viscera's point remains valid
Which playstyle am I more likely to remember and place more significance on: The guy who's too towny-to-be-town scum that posts HUGE walls, or lurker scum who actually does post regularly? I mean, it's not like he prod-dodged all the time. He didn't did he?
Junpei wrote:
Cobblerfone's sixth point isn't something I agree with because it is elaborating on a point that didn't need to be elaborated on, and he does it in a second post, for no reason. But it isn't that big of a deal, and unless viscera was planning on posting libraries of fluff from cobblerfone, it isn't necessary to the case.
I posted it in a second post because I realized that I better explain myself. Again, null.
I'll have to look up points 7-9.
1. I disagree. Town can drop scumtells and scum can drop towntells, it's just less likely then the other way around. A nulltell is so common from both sides that it can't be said either way.
2. Covered already.
3-5. Both would stick with me. How are you going to forget any kind of scum that slipped past you?
6. It was unnecessary though and that point remains.
I have been avoiding posting in this game because I am not interested
in the slightest
in the most recent pages. They are boring, and I don't find anyone as 'convincing' as they seem to think they are.
But here's the important part. This game is on
page 84
and it is only
Day Two
. And it needs to stop.
I heartily suggest everybody just move along and start compromising. I vastly prefer to vote BBMolla or glowball / Descent over Cobblerfone, but this day is going nowhere and has been going nowhere for a long while.
In post 2092, Cobblerfone wrote:Link gets a townread from me, for working so hard on a case between two other people. I am way too lazy to read all of that though.
I will claim if somebody off of my wagon asks me to/threatens to hammer.
Allow me to translate:
"Some guy made a case response against me, he is town because he is trying hard. I don't really know how hard he is trying or even if his facts are right, but I'm going to assume that they are as I haven't read his post because I'm 'lazy'. Yes I realize his points are against me, but they can still be right can't they?..."
Okay last part I added, but it was practically implied. I don't know why you aren't going to cross-check what Link is saying, perhaps because you're scum and don't want to put forth the effort in a game you are already dead in?
pedit: Empking, may I suggest going to the hardware store and buying some rope? Because at the rate you're posting useless and meaningless posts, you're gonna need some.
The melody of logic always plays the notes of truth.
In post 2094, Junpei wrote:pedit: Empking, may I suggest going to the hardware store and buying some rope? Because at the rate you're posting useless and meaningless posts, you're gonna need some.
Why are you ignoring BB?
Plus, if you guys want to make a point, skip the walls, because everyone else in the game does as well. - Magister Ludi
In post 2092, Cobblerfone wrote:Link gets a townread from me, for working so hard on a case between two other people. I am way too lazy to read all of that though.
I will claim if somebody off of my wagon asks me to/threatens to hammer.
Allow me to translate:
"Some guy made a case response against me, he is town because he is trying hard. I don't really know how hard he is trying or even if his facts are right, but I'm going to assume that they are as I haven't read his post because I'm 'lazy'. Yes I realize his points are against me, but they can still be right can't they?..."
Okay last part I added, but it was practically implied. I don't know why you aren't going to cross-check what Link is saying, perhaps because you're scum and don't want to put forth the effort in a game you are already dead in?
pedit: Empking, may I suggest going to the hardware store and buying some rope? Because at the rate you're posting useless and meaningless posts, you're gonna need some.
The point is: Why work so hard against a townie? What's the point? Unless... Have you read it? Does it setup a Viscera lynch for when I flip town?
In post 2094, Junpei wrote:pedit: Empking, may I suggest going to the hardware store and buying some rope? Because at the rate you're posting useless and meaningless posts, you're gonna need some.
Why are you ignoring BB?
Oh right, I should make a special place in every post that pertains to BBmolla!
No, I shouldn't because there are other suspects and I need to get a good read on everyone.
Questions for you, flailing fish:
What is your current read on Link and why?
What do you think of Cobblers' rebuttal and why?
pedit:
Mafia might want to work hard against a townie....
The melody of logic always plays the notes of truth.
(Sorry Tomie, wish you were still here...this game needs ur uber-detectivity)
