Open 397: Pick Your Poison! Game Over!

[RachMarie]

@LS: I've made it clear where I stand on the first post. Quite honestly, this is my first experience with a hydra: he's not contributed anything of value, and while that's bad, he's admitted that it's because the other "head" hasn't shown up yet; I won't tolerate that excuse for too long.

Spoiler: *ahem*

They'll probably just fart in your general direction.

Nope, just your direction...

No, seriously, we've got something.

I hate random questions, but if I don't answer, everyone will point and call me scummy.

a) I prefer being 3rd party. I'm really, really good at it.

2) I lost count at 40 games. And I haven't updated my wiki in forever.

D) Pacific time (GMT-7 or -8)

So, you say that you don't like RQS, but decide to participate because you don't want to be called scummy. Also, this is your first post after we had our nice little fart sketch. However, you didn't vote us for playstyle until someone else did it first.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Nobody Special

3- what is your timezone and how many times a day can we expect you to be posting?

Phillip's being a dick and refusing to answer the first two questions, but:
We're in +9:30 time zone, with one or two posts a day.

Glowball's recent posts are pretty townesque.

... Glowball was just giving theory discussion in his last few posts before you said that... theory discussion is null.

Dude. TheFool, I don't see where you're getting at all.

And lynching the most obv. town person in this game is NOT a good idea.

After all, she's the one getting us somewhere.

VOTE: TheFool

... We both agree with the majority of TheFool's post, actually..

. although I (Terrance) think that there's also the possibility of scum defending their scum buddy.

Phillip/2birds1stone, however, thinks assosciative tells are worthless when they're between two people who know each other well.

We still prefer the Nobody Special wagon. And not just because we started it.

People are missing something focusing too much on the back and forth discussion tween the two of them in the posts. There are varying ways hydras choose to play and some do this style of back and forth in the posts. I certainly would not view that as scummy and would not expect anyone else to do that either.

However look at the bold text here this looks like buddying up to TF though he goes back to his wagon he started (with no real basis for voting for NS in the first place.

He started a wagon and never really made a case on NS.

He then later when it did not pick up much steam and people (primarily LS) started questioning him, instead of building an actual case, backed down and said well there was not much going on.

Could that perhaps be, because he knew NS was town? Which the only way he could know FOR SURE is because he is scum.

Phillip/2birds1stone here, this is a bit of a prod-dodge (you'd think that living with my other head would make this a lot easier, but oh well).

However, so as not to make this totally worthless, something we both agreed on unanimosly while playing

Mortal Kombat

when we should have been posting here:

T&P, convince me to vote NS. Because what you've posted so far about him is not convincing.

Four pages into the game, we weren't going to be particularly convincing. Seriously.

Also, on reading, I no longer believe NS to be the best wagon, there are some interesting things going on now. Uh, I'm pretty sure we'll have our actual post and new vote tomorrow.

Total fluff post where he backed off the NS wagon, and promises more later. (Still waiting on that more BTW?)

Phillip/2birds1stone here, I'm not really seeing the big deal about BK201, despite what my other head thinks/said; the only scummy thing he's done is deflect attention to lurkers, and I've done that as town before -- there's a fine line between deflecting and pushing a wagon whilst under fire.

Having said that, we think we should ignore lurkers today -- if they don't get shot tonight, we can start lynching them, but right now, we need to keep some alive so as to give potential vigs something to prove their existance with.

We honestly don't see anything scummy about denouncing town reads. Scum getting obvtowned sucks [chocolate salty] balls, especially in LyLo;

mid-strong townreads should probably be disputed just as hotly as scumreads. We do, however, admit to being wrong about glowball being only theory.

Also, we didn't "sheep away the instant you called us out on it", and no, you cannot expect good cases just out of RVS, if you could expect good cases just out of RVS, town would win 100% of the time. You look at what happened between the NS case and our next post, and if you can say that any sane townie could've stuck by that case given the interesting

shit

^* that happened in between those two posts, then you've got a serious case of hardocre tunnelvision.

However, your tunnel on us does seem town-motivated; it's a fairly useless tunnel for scum to be locked into.

I, Phillip/2birds1stone don't feel particularly motivated/compelled to vote anyone; however, Terrance wants to sheep the Rach wagon.

VOTE: RachMarie

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

*Censored by Terrance

Again look at the bolded parts here. Town does not know who the potential PRs are, we may or may not have a vig to "take care of the lurkers". Mentioning NK seems scummy as well. As town, our focus should be on DAYTIME scum hunting, not trying to figure out night actions. Nothing scummy about denouncing town reads? WHAT?? And the chocolate salty balls reference makes no sense here. IioA. Finally the oh we really don't want to scum hunt and help town we will just sheep the currently building wagon. That is scummy.

I had not noticed that til after our interchange TBH. Still my point is we do have a lot of loose cannons in this game after all look at T and P too.

At risk of sounding stupid [you are stupid, Terrance], what's a loose cannon?

@T&P: Yeah, it does suck when scum is obvtowned into LYLO. It also sucks when there are few legitimate town reads to go around because scum keeps on denouncing them.

Would you rather have a bunch of wrong town reads, or few accurate town reads?

I, Phillip/2birds1stone don't feel particularly motivated/compelled to vote anyone; however, Terrance wants to sheep the Rach wagon.

VOTE: RachMarie

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

*Censored by Terrance

Alright you have a decent case LS. @Chrimi, I also don't like when people park on a wagon and leave. this above quote + LS's case is why imma vote the hydra. I don't like how you can throw out disclaimers in case things go bad by saying for example "I don't really want to vote this person, but my other head does, etc etc". A hydra should act as one being, not two people that share a vote and can save themselves with disclaimers.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: T&P

Phillip/2birds1stone here, to clarify: it's not a disclaimer. Well, to a degree it is, but it's not a "I think this wagon is a bad idea" disclaimer. It's a "meh, I don't actually feel particularly strongly about anyone atm", with Terrance going "Eeeeeeeee, killing time, let's lynch Rach". I'm like, "sure, she's as good a day one lynch as anyone".

Unfortunately, we're only Canadian, we can't fully agree 100% of the time,

but Terrance is not acting in contradiction with my opinion, and we do fully stand by each other's actions. That's why we're not voting BK201, because we want to act in a way we're both okay with.

Shit.
VOTE: T&P

Saw something.

... You did? Enlighten us, what did you see? Was it a... wait... no, we won't make a fart joke here... As much as we'd like to.

Rasp is a horrible wagon. Both Rasp and Kass need to live until day two, then we can start lynching them.

1. A loose cannon is someone who is rather chaotic and does not behave in a predictable and rational manner, sorry for not answering that earlier, but I missed it.

2. What on earth does your nationality have to do with it TOTAL FLUFF. Also you are wording things to make it seem boohoo I am a hyrda and you all are using it against me (AtE and WIFOM). You are not scummy because you are a hydra, you are scummy because you are not scum hunting and not adding to the discussion with the rest of the town to help them scum hunt.

3. What?? We should not lynch them today lets kill them tomorrow? And I am not going to build a case still.

Okay, there are three days left in deadline, and there's one wagon which looks like lynching.

If we wait till L-1 for Rach to claim, we may not have time to assemble a new wagon.

We truly hate to no-lynch day one, we assume we're all familiar with the maths behind this.

So, we don't feel we're out of line in asking Rach to claim.

Pushing a claim before someone is at L-1 and has someone with intent to hammer? Scummy. Especially the part of we may not have time to assemble a new wagon. This sounds like PR fishing to me, since the most common reason someone is not hammered after a claim is because they claim a PR.

Would you rather have a bunch of wrong town reads, or few accurate town reads?

:/ I don't see why you don't get it. You're not a town white knight for destroying people's town reads. It doesn't work like that.

... uh, that's a little harsh, but maybe we use the term 'white knight' a little differently. Meh, we honestly don't see any reason not to argue town reads just as fiercly as scum reads, to not debate them cuts down on an avenue of discussion, and we honestly don't see any benefit to letting a townread we disagree with slide.

I am seeing what you are seeing, I never said I didn't see more.

Dude, quit stalling the lynch. You're claiming to have information on us, and it makes people not want to lynch anyone else (Rach) yet. You're not revealing what that information is, which is putting people off lynching us.

Meh, guess we found Rach's partner, when she flips scum, our vote's on you.

Lynch happy are we? On the surface this sounds like pushing for information on a read to insure the town has what it needs which seems towny, but combined with the rest of the stuff could be one of two things:

1. Scum hunt for me so I do not have to which is scummy.
2. Pushing the lynch to end discussion and setting up someone for D 2. You are trying to control and limit discussion which is not a town thing to do but a scummy one.

Now that I have made my case and please forgive the huge wall.

VOTE: T and P If I counted the votes correctly, this puts him at L-2.

[drmyshotgun]

Rachmarie's post is good and totally legit.
I don't mind someone coming on for L-1 and another needs to ask T&P for a claim before hammer.

[Elmo TeH AzN]

Day 1 Vote Count, #14

With 13 Alive it takes

7

to Lynch

BK201 - 1 - (SaintKerrigan) (L-6)
RachMarie - 4 - (Terrance And Phillip, borkjerfin, Kassadin, Thomith) (L-3)
Terrance And Phillip - 6 - (BK201, TheFool, drmyshotgun, Chrimi, Lastsurvivor, RachMarie)

(L-1)!!!

Not Voting: rasberrylicious, glowball


Any Errors let me know.
Deadline is in (expired on 2012-05-12 03:00:00)

[drmyshotgun]

Oh, L-1...
Okay, the next person who wants to join the party should ask T&P to claim.

[Lastsurvivor]

And Rach finally delivers. Some of the stuff is from my case or I've said, but everything I haven't said is glorious. : )

PEDIT:

Just in case anyone wasn't aware T&P is at L-1 not L-2.

[SaintKerrigan]

Mod: My life has just become unpredictably busy. I'm willing to try and stay on, but if you feel that it would be better to replace me with someone who can give the game better (and more frequent) attention, I'd understand.

I won't be able to give this game proper attention tonight, as I'm tired from a long day, but since I know I haven't been active for awhile I'll try to go through and say something or two, at least.

[TheFool]

TheFool, everything scummy about Rasp you have stated above is in her town meta.

It's how she (doesn't?) play.

I disgree, and don't feel there's enough content out there to make that claim anyway.

You're probably referring to the fact that he makes small, infrequent contentless posts as town, and is making the same such posts here as well. That is true, but irrelevant to my case.

There is content in those posts, and it is bad. The reasons given for vote-hops and suspicions are weak, and often counter to the truth. The suspicions themselves align with big wagons at the time, even when the reasons do not (i.e. Rach being scum because she's 'pushing pretty hard', which is pretty wtf in its own right).

None of this is prevalent in previous meta. (also, rasp doesn't actually have any completed town meta, so this argument is a bit disingenuous from the start)

If T&P flips scum, this is absolutely where my vote is going.

[drmyshotgun]

I wonder if Kassadin or Raspberry will just turn up and hammer straightaway.
I'm afraid they are both capable of doing that.

T&P, you should claim.

[Terrance and Phillip]

We're doing these next two posts somewhat unusually, because I, Phillip, really, REALLY want to rip into Rach's case, and Terrance's influence on my post is going to prevent me from doing this my usual way.

So, I'm going spend the next paragraph [counter]productively yelling, and Terrance is going to post content content.

Becuase Rach's case is total bull and the sheeping is fucked. Last's case on us is reasonable, but all the extra stuff Rach added is either misrep or nonsensical.

However look at the bold text here this looks like buddying up to TF though he goes back to his wagon he started (with no real basis for voting for NS in the first place. He started a wagon and never really made a case on NS. He then later when it did not pick up much steam and people (primarily LS) started questioning him, instead of building an actual case, backed down and said well there was not much going on. Could that perhaps be, because he knew NS was town? Which the only way he could know FOR SURE is because he is scum.

"OMFG, they agreed with someone, that must be buddying", followed by a claim that we never posted a case WHEN WE DID, ON PAGE THREE OF THIS GAME! Yeah, it was a weak case BECAUSE IT WAS PAGE THREE OF THIS GAME. It was also, coincidentally, the longest post up until that point in the game, so don't try the 'no content' BS, we've posted much more content than you and your null-reads-except-on-the-only-wagon-that-will-guarantee-your-survival. THE ONLY SCUMREAD YOU HAVE IS THE ONLY PLAYER WHO MIGHT BE LYNCHED APART FROM YOU, I DON'T THINK THAT'S A COINCIDENCE. That's some bloody extreme self-preservation.

Yeah, we then backed down from our case, BECAUSE IT WAS A PAGE-THREE CASE, frankly, it's not that often people pick scum three pages into a game.

You put that much effort into your case on us, and totally missed the context? That's... that's really not a town move.

You then quote a fluff post which was marked as a prod dodge, I really put a lot of work into disguising the prod-dodge marked as a prod-dodge too. You then try to pretend we didn't post content since then DESPITE QUOTING SUBSEQUENT POSTS, which honestly say a lot more than yours do.

Oh, and this is the greatest fucking misrep I've ever seen in mafia, this next quote is amazing.

Again look at the bolded parts here. Town does not know who the potential PRs are, we may or may not have a vig to "take care of the lurkers". Mentioning NK seems scummy as well. As town, our focus should be on DAYTIME scum hunting, not trying to figure out night actions.

I know we may not have a vig to take care of lurkers, that's why THE WORD 'POTENTIAL' IS IN THERE. That's why we lynch them IF THEY DON'T GET SHOT, and not "don't lynch them ever at all in a million years". WE WAIT UNTIL TOMORROW, AS I'VE POINTED OUT ON MULTIPLE OCCASIONS, SORRY IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND CONDITIONALS. Also, I disagree strongly about "shouldn't speculate about the night game". If you haven't noticed (which you have, because you're scum), scum know the town PRs, and town don't. That puts us at an information disadvantage. Sure, PR speculation shouldn't take up the entire game, but it's definately important.

Yeah, we sheeped a good wagon, sue us.

ONCE AGAIN, YOU DON'T SEEM TO GET THAT LURKERS NEED TO LIVE TILL DAY TWO! They are vig fodder. If they don't die tonight, we don't have a vig, and we lynch them because they are no longer useful even as vig fodder. WE HAVE MADE THIS ABUNDANTLY CLEAR, BUT APPARENTLY THIS IS A COMPLEX CONCEPT.

Yes, we wanted you to claim. You looked like the lynch, I would've killed myslef had you claimed a PR and we had to start a new wagon within 72 hours. Town actually surprised me here and did manage to start another wagon, but not without disassembling yours. I still think you should claim, TBH.

Lynch happy are we? On the surface this sounds like pushing for information on a read to insure the town has what it needs which seems towny, but combined with the rest of the stuff could be one of two things:

Yes. 72 hours from a deadline, and we are lynch happy. Discuss all you want before that, but at 72 hours mark, the lynch needs to be made, unless it's a LyLo or similarly important lynch.

Oh, and to top the whole thing off, you claim that we're at L-2 despite us really being at L-1. Forgive me if I'm not going to take that as a mistake.

Tracker here. Or are we multiple trackers, seeing as there are two of us?

So, that was me getting all that out of my system, Terrance is now going to post "what's going on in the rest of the game", and hopefully find more evidence pointing towards Chrimi's scumminess, because I haven't forgotten him.

[Elmo TeH AzN]

Kassadin Has been prodded

[Terrance and Phillip]

After pulling Phillip away from the keyboard after he nearly broke it, I, Terrance, the more awesome of the two of us, is going to say something without being angry. Find it funny that I was the one who went to the school counsellor with anger management issues...

... uh, that's a little harsh, but maybe we use the term 'white knight' a little differently. Meh, we honestly don't see any reason not to argue town reads just as fiercly as scum reads, to not debate them cuts down on an avenue of discussion, and we honestly don't see any benefit to letting a townread we disagree with slide.

There's a difference between what you did and debating a town read though. The way you posted was like "Lol no, Glowball was only giving theory he's not town." That's not really debate, that's destructive. A more reasonable way to debate a town read would be something like...I dunno, "Why do you think Glowball's recent posts are town? We felt they were just theory."

You're right, there is absolutely nothing wrong with debating a town read. You just didn't...really debate it.

So, you have a problem with the way we worded it as opposed to our motives. While we phrased it like that, it can still be done any other way. It's like saying "You're scum!" as opposed to "I think you're scum". They mean exactly the same thing, and are just worded slightly differently. You can still discuss it without needing it that way. It's not as nice, and if I were playing as just me I wouldn't say it, but Phillip's a more agressive player than me when it comes to personality and so some things are going to be not as nicely worded as they could be. But the content can still be argued the same way. You just have to work around it.

any reasoning?

Ok I am back from the doc in Oakdale, now will go through ISOs and get back with a vote and a case.

Just do this and we'll be all good.

Don't lynch her while she's working on a case, that's why.

... that's not reasoning why someone's town. That's reason why we should wait before lynching someone.

Chrimi claiming to have something extra against us without saying anything, and then saying someone is town because they're promising a case of their own is not very townie... looks to me like he's trying to help out a buddy... telling us not to lynch someone because they're coming with a case is fair enough, but saying they won't flip scum because of it seems odd... Since when did a delayed case mean town?

[Kassadin]

No claim?

[Terrance and Phillip]

Tracker here.

No claim?

Got it in one, Kass

[Kassadin]

ic

[drmyshotgun]

Unvote

Tracker huh.

[drmyshotgun]

We have three Power-Roles in this game right?

[borkjerfkin]

I think Rach's case is pretty unsubstantial. It gets better at the end --

1) The PR fishing attack does potentially hold water.
2) "Pushing the lynch to end discussion and setting up someone for D 2. You are trying to control and limit discussion which is not a town thing to do but a scummy one. "

These are the only two things I agree with.
I find the people that are treating this case as make of pure gold really, really odd.

We have three Power-Roles in this game right?

Yes; it's in the setup on page 1.

[RachMarie]

I am not completely sold he is a tracker (if we have one that is), since only scum know which PRs we have, but I want to get back up verification on what T and P said about a vig dealing with Rasp and Kassadin? Since I am rather suspicious of this slot, and I have no experience really with the vig role other than a brief marathon game which consisted of the confirmed vig hammering me after scum NKed NS and set me up for a fall. (Scum won that game BTW). This Open game is my very first non newbie game, so I am not as familiar with some of the roles outside of cop, JK, and doc. Is what T and P saying about vig accurate?

[borkjerfkin]

Vigs generally go after people that might otherwise get policy lynched.

[RachMarie]

edit by way of posting

I am not completely sold he is a tracker (if we have one that is), since only scum know which PRs we have, and I can't CC tracker because I am not a tracker, but I want to get back up verification on what T and P said about a vig dealing with Rasp and Kassadin?

[RachMarie]

So he is being truthful on that then. I don't like the screaming survivalist attitude, I am not sold on this not being a fake claim, and the fact he has not built a case on his primary suspect, but I am in a quandary here I do not want to lynch an unCCed PR either.

@ Chrimi and LS
You two have been the primary movers behind this wagon on T and P. Any new thoughts since he has claimed a PR role? Do you feel its a fake claim or an accurate one? I really feel uneasy here if he is being truthful, we should not lynch him.

[Thomith]

oh look BK is pushing an easy lynch again, when he was even in a game with them and they played the same way.
scumscumscumscumscumscumscumscumscumscumscumscum.
doesn't look liek we will get a bk lynch though, but i think it should still be considered for tommurrow, also we have like no time left, i dont really want to lynch a tracker d1, but we need to lynch soon.

[Chrimi]

To clarify, she won't flip scum because she won't be flipping today at all. Possible tonight, but she won't be flipping today.

[RachMarie]

@ Chrimi
Could you please answer my question about the case on T and P with the unCCed PR claim its kinda important.


@ Rasp
You may feel since NS replaced out and Shotgun (who is definitely NOT a lurker in his meta) replaced in that my question is now moot, but humor me anyways and answer it. I do not ask questions just to ask questions I have reasons for asking them, and I do not like having my questions ignored. (which is why even though I suspect T and P of being scum, I apologized for missing his question and answered when I caught it while building a case on them).

To remind you of the question,

since we are excusing Kassadin based on his "I no talk" meta, why were you viewing NS as scummy?

Seems a double standard there. You did not build a case on him,

and he too is an easy lynch since his meta is that of a power lurker.

I am not 100% sure that NS (now Shotgun) is town, but I get a fairly solid towny feel (just a gut feeling atm not enough to build a town case on) from that slot, and am looking forward to Shotgun clarifying it more since Shotgun is an active poster (we need more of those in this game.)

[TheFool]

UNVOTE: