A Dance with Dragons Mafia: A New Dawn!

[Tyene Sand]

Can someone unvote bvoigt, please? We're lynching him today, but he's at L-2 and I don't want anyone to go OOPS L-1 for him to selfhammer until we sort out these three:

mockingjaye - unsent
Scumhunter - unknown
Shinori - unsent

Yes, I'm asking you to unvote claimed scum. Play ball a little.

[BBmolla]

Hey guys I think bvoigt is town

[Pandora]

HI IT'S MY BIRTHDAY
I'M NOT READING MAFIA TODAY BECAUSE FUCK YOU
WHY IS THIS DAY NOT OVER YET
FUCK YEAH BACARDI AND ME ARE HAVING AN ~*~ADVENTURE~*~

##UNVOTE

FOR MIEN FURHERESS

[Shinori]

I sent in my jail vote.

[kortul]

I am glad that we have no-brainer day 2, since if it were anything resembling day 1 i would fall far behind. We have a period of reports and budget planning, and that is much more important. I also realized that my audit style language may crawl into my posts whenever i am making quick posts from work, can't help it. Slowly updating my reads in the evenings, more than half done.

Shinori, are you still playing as a hydra? I didn't notice any visible difference in your posts, and you always use "I", never "we".

[mockingjaye]

I've sent my jailkeep vote in. I'm also still working on my updated reads for today, it's just taking a long time and I have a lot on my plate in real life right now, and when it comes to the game, I've been doing my best to keep up but have been somewhat overwhelmed by the size of the game in general and rereading is slow-going.

MoI:

Regarding where my votes fell on D1, I voted when I was able to post. I was pretty busy with other things outside the game then, which is partly why I'm still behind now.

Shinori:

Even though it's too late now, for future reference, I don't think it's wise to reveal you have information that you can't do anything with until you actually have a reason to reveal it. You put yourself at great risk, and if you don't get a jk/doc tonight, then you risk throwing away what you know.

-----

Regarding my reads on D1:

I still think Minimum is scum, but I'm not as sure about Edd. There are some things that still bother me there, but I think I might have been reading too much into some of his posts yesterday and my concerns are the kinds of things that can be better figured out in time for various reasons. I also think I was wrong about Shinori. As for Starbuck/Scumhunter, I am waiting for further posting.

Where I am now:

Scumreads outside of confessed scum BVoigt: Minimum, Sapo, and Ben, and then Edd to a somewhat lesser degree, and I have a nullish-scum read on Starbuck/Scumhunter. I also think Plum made some good points about Plessiezarus, and that combined with how I feel about their edit of my argument on Stefan is enough to make me pull them down into the nullish-scum group as well, but I want to thoroughly review their recent postings because I'm not sure if it was done for the sake of brevity or if it is actually a deliberate misrep of my argument.

Sapo:

I agree with others who don't buy the explanation.

Ben:

Up until Post 1315, you have Plessy listed as one of your town reads, but in that post, you have them in the middle of your vig list for DCL. Why did they become a vig choice for you? You flipped on three other people on that list between Post 736 and this one, but never really mentioned Plessy aside from saying you didn't know why they asked Edd why you were obv-town twice in Post 937.

You also repeatedly defended BVoigt during the day and in Post 1241, go after Plumamma for "going after a weak player" for their case on BVoigt. In the same post, you work very hard to get people off BVoigt, whom you insisted is town.

How do you feel about Plumamma today?

Do you still think Shadow's role is a scum role like you said in Post 1331? Considering how much you defended BVoigt yesterday and claimed that you believed that Shadow had a scum role, I'm kind of surprised you didn't pursue any of that today.

Overall, given the amount of defense Ben heaped on BVoigt, the way he actively pushed people away from the lynch, his statement that Shadow had a scum role and then the lack of follow-through on that in regards to BVoigt, his supposed strong town read today, suggests to me that there is a link here.

Minimum:

Mina, the AtE you dumped on me at the end of yesterday was a bit rude. Just so you know, it's not all about

you

, either, and I have been on your case because I think you're scum. Also, I've never been scum; the closest I have come was in the Large Theme

Battle for Olympus

, where Katy and I were the Hydra Gemini playing as Hera, a modified Serial Killer/Neighborizer. We had a third-party wincon in which we would have left the game if we were able to castrate all the male gods.

CES, regarding Post 1283 which I missed yesterday, you may not respect people's wishes regarding the hydra head they speak to, but I was specifically addressing Mina for something Mina did, which you really aren't able to fully answer to; that's why I don't like that you answered and she didn't. I don't think anything I accused Mina of was "cartoonish villainy" or anything of the sort. For one, I don't think Mina lied for no reason; I think she lied to justify disengaging from her escalating argument with MoI, and for two, I obviously thought of it as being scummy. To the third point, the damage I was referring to was the possibility of being called out on AtE, i.e., what I did. It DID have a softening effect on me, as I almost let myself be talked into feeling bad for being on your collective case so much.

-----

Plessy:

(9th vote) Mockingjaye: 1464 "[if he's the High Sparrow] I don't think he could have a strictly pro-town agenda" [better breadcrumb spotting but still terrible reasoning for a Faraday-modded game]

Based on his claims in Post 1380 and in Post 1447, though, where he says that his dying would be good for Cersei and that he is an enemy of Cersei's

, and considering the High Septon is gunning pretty hard for Cersei in the books, I don't think he could have a strictly pro-town agenda, so at some point that will have to be addressed and dealt with if we don't do it today, too.

Your edit of my comments leaves out the crux of my argument. You've basically cut it down to one thing which isn't even the main reason I arrived at the conclusion I did.

I had picked up on Stefan's crumbs fairly early on and surmised he was probably a town PR; it wasn't until he made the early claim and acted all weird about elaborating on his claim, basically saying he wanted us to pick up on his breadcrumbs, and then when he made those comments about it being good for Cersei if he was gone and that he was her enemy that I got paranoid and guessed he might have a role centered around killing her given that he was against her in the books.

I also have a history with lynchers and have seen them swing games, and even though Stefan wasn't really playing as strongly as either of them, there was no way I wasn't going to say something about my read on him in this thread. For reference, in the Large Theme

Children of Hurin

, I talked myself into and out of believing MoI was a lyncher--he was, even though he played for the town and we won, but if he had achieved his goal, it could have gone the other way; and in the Mini-Theme

They're Taking the Hobbits to Isengard

, I was the victim of the scum-Fate who neighborized the Balrog-Lyncher SpyreX and cleaned up the game for scum in what was perhaps the most ridiculously stupid town game in history (aside from

LOST S4

, which I mention only for Scum Faraday. <3).

I voted Stefan when I did because of the two wagons, I was more certain his was scum. I was planning on keeping an eye on the thread during the day and watching for BVoigt's claim as well, and if he hadn't claimed by noonish my time, I was going to move my vote to him to avoid a no lynch. However, he claimed vig while I was writing my post, so I didn't feel the need to change my vote, and when I checked in later, the day was over.

Regarding the comment about my conclusion being "terrible reasoning for a Faraday-modded game," Minimum actually brought that up in Post 1474, and I didn't have a chance to respond then.

I've actually only been in one of these games,

AFFC

, and I was Olenna Tyrell, a delayed-poisoner vig. I don't remember all the roles from that game, but I do remember that Loras Tyrell was a one-shot vig, Maester Pycelle was a weak doc, and at least some of the Kettleblacks actually did work for Littlefinger. Based on that game and this one, the roles I've seen have lined up pretty well with the books (aside from the irony of Cersei being an innoncent child, though the mechanics of the role suited her much better than did the title), so no, it didn't seem implausible to me that the High Sparrow might actually have a goal of killing Cersei in this game. The worst thing about my reasoning is that I came to the wrong conclusion, but I didn't just get to that conclusion because of the books.

-----

Other Comments:

Regfan:

Mockingjaye/DCL is something your whole analysis has made me have a look at and think they work as partners, DCL ignored Mockingjaye and she ignored RedFF/His slot for majority of the game plus she rushed over him stating he reads as 'genuine' while going into depth on details about other players, reads somewhat as her not knowing what to say about him.

You make it sound like I went into depth on details about lots of other players except for DCL when I actually didn't talk about 2/3 of the playerlist yesterday. I also don't usually spend a whole lot of time going into details about people I think are town or null anyway. I didn't have a lot of time and the time I did have was spent hyperfocused on a handful of people who really stood out to me. I ended up rushing over the four final wagons because I was pressed for time and none of them had really gotten my attention yesterday and I got paranoid about Stefan and focused on him in the end. Also, you give a pass to Plumamma in this same post for not commenting more on Stefan because of "low activity" and somehow overlook the fact that I wasn't even able to get online for about a week due to a hurricane; why is that?
-----

To all: If people don't use my full name, then I usually go by MJaye; it feels weird to be called Mocking.

[Plums Yo Mamma]

not actually saying shit because no shit is important right now
hurry up please

[Eddard Stark]

House Dayne of Starfall is a Dornish noble house sworn to House Martell. The Sword of the Morning is a title given to a Dayne knight who is considered worthy of wielding the greatsword Dawn, a blade said to be created from the heart of falling star. Their sigil is a sword and a falling star on a lavender background

Day 2, Votecount 9

bvoigt (10) - Dolorous Edd, Staeg, Benmage, Shadow1psc Mastermind of Sin, Shinori, kortul, BBmolla, MagnaofIllusion, Plums Yo Mamma

Saporerint (1) - Tyene Sand

Not Voting (13):

Minimum, Lyanna Stark, Mockingjaye, Magua, Regfan, Zdenek, Bvoigt, Plessiezarus, Feysal, Saporerint, Scumhunter, Jal, Pandora

With 24 alive it takes 13 to lynch.

• Deadline
  : 22nd September at 00:39am Ireland time. (GMT+1)
  
• Countdown to deadline
  : (expired on 2012-09-21 19:39:47)

[Tyene Sand]

Scumhunter has been online and, being Scumhunter, can hardly be bothered to tell us whether he has sent in a jailkeep vote. Hooray!

My patience has a limit and that is (expired on 2012-09-15 09:00:00) from now. Will cast my vote then if nothing else of significance happens in the meantime.

[MagnaofIllusion]

At this point I see no big motivation to hold off. Especially for Scumhunter. The lynch for today is decided and almost all players have their Jail vote in. Let's get this done and move on to Day 3 with more information (and a pocket scum in Sapo if they aren't Vigged).

[Dolorous Edd]

House Dayne of Starfall is a Dornish noble house sworn to House Martell. The Sword of the Morning is a title given to a Dayne knight who is considered worthy of wielding the greatsword Dawn, a blade said to be created from the heart of falling star. Their sigil is a sword and a falling star on a lavender background

[Magua]

And I thought zoraster was a terrible scumtroll.

[Plessiezarus]

(Posting a few proper hydra posts, so hopefully people won't get bored and end the day

just

yet...)

Zdenek's fake day-vig may have been silly (and it was), but at least it convinced us we didn't really believe in our scum-read on Tyene anymore. (At least, if somebody claimed to have day-vigged Sap or Shinori or somebody else I have a real scum-read on, I'm pretty sure my immediate internal reaction wouldn't have been an outraged "why the fuck would you do that?"). Tyene's been acting pretty pro-town today (thinking of the immediate Saporerint catch and the requests for people to unvote so that everyone can send in jail choices). Oh well.

Made some progress with the null pile, too, so let's update the lists:

STRONG TOWN READS
Lyanna, Pandora, Regfan, BBmolla

WEAK TOWN READS
Jal, Edd, MoS, Benmage, Shadow1psc, Tyene, Scumhunter, Zdenek,

NULL
Magua, MagnaOfIllusion, Plum+Nacho, Mockingjaye,

WEAK SCUM READS
Staeg, Minimum, kortul

STRONG SCUM READS
bvoigt, Shinori, Sapororerint, Feysal

Somebody asked why we'd gone back to having a town-read on

Starbuck

. Basically, it was a combination of realising Starbuck hasn't been lurking strategically (since she's been prodded and then replaced), and rereading her posts from the start of day 1 and remembering why we had a town-read on her in the first place. Really, the only reason we moved her down to null was the fact she didn't say or do anything at all for a week or so. Also inclined to view this post as a weak town-tell:

Why do you want Starbuck to nameclaim? Until she's in danger of being lynched, it's antitown. If she was at L-1, we'd want to hear her name and flavor, but until then, all it does is give more information to the scum.

And to the town. Why did she claim VT? Because she volunteered to be chosen. If she was getting chosen, why not nameclaim, and if not, why claim VT? The thing is, even if her name gives us nothing, her doing so (or in this case, not doing so) gives us info.

I think you want to know because you want your team to know who not to fakeclaim as

. That's what I'm getting from this.

Since MoS and MoI have clarified how fake-names work, this doesn't seem like something scum teams would need to do (Faraday hands out safe nameclaims to scum, so there's no need to risk fishing for them). Don't feel like Starbuck would have brought this up as scum (we've checked, and she didn't play in the earlier Eddard Stark games, unless we can't read the wiki pages at all).

Zdenek

's catch-up posts, tunneling on Tyene and general attitude since replacing in seem very natural. Some questions for him to come, but he's townish.

Staeg

is a scum read almost by PoE. We think he looks most suspicious of everyone in the big null pile. Would perhaps think differently if he posted more (and we both had a bit of an allergic reaction to the 'wow, Pless is so town!!" attitude in 1846, to be honest).

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

(Another proper hydra post.)

Plum

Plum here. Plum has a new crazy schedule at college, and Nacho has done some posting. Hopefully this will be useful.

This post made me feel better about Plum, actually. Can actually see where they're coming from with their reads here, even with their suspicion of us. They're right that we didn't talk about Shadow as much as we should have (or thought we had) and that our take on the claims hasn't evolved very sensibly.

Can only really plead a mix of neglect and confusion on those two fronts.

We weren't giving the game enough attention during the second week of day 1, and ended up abandoning a couple of hydra posts we'd be working on to catch-up - as a result, I think our read on Shadow comes across as more static than it was. Putting Shadow in the null tier after the claim was meant to be a step or two down - we'd had him as town in our QT for quite a bit before then. Was actually a bit confused on this front until I realised we'd never said as much in the game .

Didn't really understand how the mechanics of Faraday handing out fake-claims worked until day 2. Obviously that changes how we approached both Shadow's claim and bvoigt's claim.

Pless' approaches to bvoigt's claim don't fit into a picture of consistency or thoughtfully evolving insights. I may be wrong. But.

Not sure you are wrong, really. Our opinion on the claims has jumped about a bit.

Partly that's because we didn't quite understand how Faraday gives out fake-claims (when we thought bvoigt's vig-claim was something given to him ready-made by the mods, we reacted to it differently than we would have if we thought it was just a spur of the moment thing), partly that's because we didn't really have time to think about things properly and objectively until night (and because we discussed the game at night, our opinions changed without that change evolving naturally in the game thread).

As you say, we suspected bvoigt for most of day 1. Claim didn't really change that - could have been a last minute attempt to win a day (which apparently is what it was), could have been a real vig role that was scum-aligned, he could have been the SK - didn't matter much to our read on him. Once he claimed it was clear there was no appetite to lynch him on day 1. We were more or less resigned to giving him an extra night (to see if he could kill scum or if he was killed himself) but, if he was still alive today, we would probably still have been pushing for his lynch. Zar was particularly reluctant to vote StefanB and had hopes up to almost the last minute of lynching BVoigt instead (he only gave up on this after Pless persauded him Stefan was the only alternative to not lynching at all).

Zar has had Faraday review his modded games before, and didn't think that BVoigt's Vig claim would be enough of a motive for him to give the slot another day if it were up to him.

Shadow - as I said, we actually had him as town (in the QT) before his claim. (We'd been arguing about it a bit - I think I had him as town and Zar had him as null, but I might be remembering things to make myself look better there ). Didn't like the claim at all (since we thought Faraday gave out claims pre-made, we didn't see why it being used before by Mina in a game Faraday had reviewed was a point in Shadow's favour). Role he claimed didn't really seem consistent, to me, with the hints he'd been dropping earlier (I had actually guessed he was an innocent child, earlier, after one of his more smug "oh, I'm not getting lynched today" posts ). Still think there's a small but non-trivial chance that Shadow is scum on a faction other than bvoigt's, which is why he's only a weak town read, but we (obviously) now believe the role claim is genuine.

I don't feel really good about this. But I am not comfortable with the fact that Pless doubted bvoigt after the claim, then argued significantly against testing the claim with Shadow's power by suggesting doubts on

Shadow

, on whom he and they did not have a scumread and on whose claim he and they did not comment, then argued Day 2 that there should have been less doubt on bvoigt's initial claim because of Shadow's power's bearing on that.

Hmm. I think you're missing the fact that our doubts about Shadow's claim weren't the only reason we had to oppose relying on Shadow to test bvoigt's claim. Seem like there were lots of ways bvoigt could be scum and Shadow town and yet this plan still be a bad idea.

Had Shadow been roleblocked or killed last night, relying on him to test bvoigt's claim would have been useless. Had bvoigt really been a vig, but been scum-aligned (something I'm pretty sure we suggested at the time, actually?), then Shadow testing him would have been, if anything, worse than useless.

But yeah, we did doubt Shadow, maybe more than is obvious on rereading our posts. Was pretty surprised when Shadow claimed his investigation result this morning, and that's made us feel a lot better about him.

Mostly I will say something closely related: he wallposted some impressive amounts dissecting people and wagons. Came out with a moderate amount of weak read-related information. I guess the way they admit to their 'disappointing' amount of null reads is candid and mildly Townish. But a lot of their stuff has been paragraphs for nullreads.

Don't think this is really accurate though (or suspicious). Our reads changed a fair amount after looking the wagons - yes, a lot of people were null afterwards, but this wasn't simply a case of our null reads not changing: we were moving former town-reads down into this pile as well (and moved at least one former scum read up). It also helped confirmed a lot of existing town-reads, which seems like a positive to me.

Certainly though, those posts do contain paragraphs about people who we ended up listing as null-reads (and some of them still are). But the analysis won't stop being applicable the instant we move into day 3. The hope is that, as the game progresses, we get more flips and form stronger opinions about people, the analysis in those posts will prove more directly useful in forming reads and working out who could be scum in which faction.

~ Pless

[Shadow1psc]

Okay, enough of this. I have caught up, but since we're lynching bvoigt anyway, there is little reason to post updated reads today, particularly town reads thanks to the jailkeep vote. Those can wait for the next phase, as can all the other matters of note that have come up today, by which I mean Shinori's claim and Saporerint's slip. I don't like either of them, for different reasons. It would have been much wiser for Shinori not to reveal anything if he was not going to reveal everything at once, now he just turned himself into a target for no reason. I don't find this suspicious though. Saporerint's slip on the other hand reeks of concern about being targeted with Shadow's ability. I can't think of any town role that would explain that concern, and their explanation was too vague to be of use. Full claim will be needed.

I did consider the relationships of some suspects. I agree that Starbuck is very unlikely to be Stannis aligned due to being attacked by redFF, however I can easily see her as partner to bvoigt, after the way bvoigt consistently defended her yesterday. At the time it was fairly safe to do, since few people suspected Starbuck at all, mostly just me and Staeg. In fact, Staeg attacking Starbuck for not name claiming and bvoigt defending her points to them not being a team. I believe Staeg to be the one that does not fit.

I'm fairly certain bvoigt will not flip Stannis aligned. This is because they should have anticipated bvoigt would be targeted by Shadow, yet they did not kill Shadow to try and give bvoigt a fighting chance. Remember that the assassination was unstoppable by any town abilities, so they could easily have gotten rid of Shadow with it. The fact they did not indicates they did not care what happened to bvoigt.

I have submitted my jailkeep vote.

Anyone else find this ridiculously lacking? Feysal going down into my pool of weak scum reads.

[Plessiezarus]

Some thoughts on Feysal:

I've received my prod and read about half of the new pages, though I still have more to go.

Feysal has been doing this all game to procrastinate on content. There is similar wording in other posts of his in Day one, and it appears in both of his D2 posts. The pre-emptive excuse to why analysis is lacking feels like a bid to gain time.

Take for example:

Okay, enough of this. I have caught up, but since we're lynching bvoigt anyway, there is little reason to post updated reads today, particularly town reads thanks to the jailkeep vote. Those can wait for the next phase, as can all the other matters of note that have come up today, by which I mean Shinori's claim and Saporerint's slip.

So Feysal here is avoiding commenting on his reads, because, well, we're lynching bvoigt anyway :sarcasm:. What does lynching BVoigt have to do with Feysal not providing analysis or reads?

I'll have to read more and look for partners, but I find the connection between Staeg and bvoigt plausible, and MoS and Starbuck are other good scum candidates.

Oh how cheeky. You know, this is one of those lines that Mafia love to drop on each other. Connecting people around without given reasoning. Buys you credit for a Mafia flip and leaves nothing behind for you to trip with. And yet you don't want to provide us with your reads...

I believe BBmolla to be town, and his information about Aegon Targaryen confirms this as multiscum. That would mean there is a factional scum kill missing. There are many possible explanations,

including bvoigt being designated killer and blocked

, the killer hitting a protected role, or both scum teams targeting the same mason. I would not find that last possibility so strange, since masons are confirmed town roles and therefore obvious targets. Yes, I was doubtful when SnowStorm claimed, but by the time greenknight confirmed his claim, I believed them. They were never going to be lynched.

Yet, you say this later in 1917

I'm fairly certain bvoigt will not flip Stannis aligned.

This is because they should have anticipated bvoigt would be targeted by Shadow, yet they did not kill Shadow to try and give bvoigt a fighting chance

. Remember that the assassination was unstoppable by any town abilities, so they could easily have gotten rid of Shadow with it. The fact they did not indicates they did not care what happened to bvoigt.

While I agree with the unlikelihood of Shadow and BVoigt being buddies given how the whole Shadow result on BVoigt came accross, and even have moved Shadow over to my town based on his morning result, I don't understand the bit of a contradiction you come yourself into between these two posts. Can you clarify?

~.Zar

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Plessie

- Post 1868 has some points I would like you to address.

[Plessiezarus]

Zdenek

One thing that really struck me as odd were the Feysal chooses early in the game. I don't think that Feysal comes across as particularly town, and if he were to flip scum I'd probably look into those choose votes pretty carefully.

Not sure how we're supposed to read this. Are you saying the Feysal chooses early in the game were odd

because

Feysal doesn't come across as particularly town? Or are you saying that the Feysal choices early in the game were odd even though, based on later reading, Feysal does not come across as particularly town? (Do you think it was a mistake to use the Choosing as a second lynch?)

MoI forgetting about bbmolla being in the game was weird, and his self-choose felt contrived.

What do you think about Starbuck and Benmage's self-choosing? If that wasn't equally contrived, why not?

I jumped off greenknight because he claimed masons. I didn't go back to Feysal because I was not convinced Feysal was scum. And I was the first on a wagon that result in the death of scum. What the hell are you criticizing here? Don't I have a right to start wagons too? Unless you're claiming that I jumped off a mason onto my scumbuddy and pushed that wagon until the end (which was a wagon I had been supportive of from the beginning due to redFF, I have no idea how you think it makes sense for me to be scum at this stage.

The point was that you had the opportunity to Vote for DC and there were votes on him, but instead you decided to push for him to be chosen, when there were no choose-votes on him.

In context, this doesn't really make sense though. Tyene had a (weak, on rereading, but still expressed) scum-read on bvoigt, and was voting for him. Bvoigt was a popular wagon (10 votes at the time, I think?). Why should she take a vote off bvoigt to vote for somebody with only a couple of votes at the time?

On the other hand, Tyene had been choosing greenknight, who had just claimed Mason. So she had every reason to choose somebody else. Choosing DCL instead of voting for him doesn't seem suspicious.

A few things as I read through again (currently through page 13):

Shinori/Hyperion is probably town

I think we also had a town-read on Hyperion early on (before he was replaced). However, I don't think that Shinori claiming to be hydra-ing later is any sort of alignment-tell, and I think Shinori's posts in general look bad. Surprised you (or anybody) is confident in calling him town. What are we missing?

~ Pless

[Plessiezarus]

MagnaofIllusion

I see you indicting both myself and BB for voting without reason. Yet you are specifically ignoring the context of those votes. Both were made within 12 hours of deadline after bvoigt had claimed Vig.

"Indicting" seems pretty strong. We're pretty confident BBmolla is town, and we don't have any read on you at all yet. We're not pretending this is a huge thing (I mean, I suspect this is more a playstyle issue than anything else, ultimately).

But yes, we believe there is a difference between, on the one hand, explaining the votes you cast, and on the other hand, casting votes in silence and expecting other people to attribute your vote to whatever reasons they find most natural and least suspicious.

Are you suggesting that there is some mystery to why I (and BB) moved our vote other than to secure a lynch? You yourself voted for a Town read to make sure no-lynch didn’t happen. What is any different about these two votes than yours or Jal’s other than explanation (it’s deadline and he claimed VT) which frankly were obvious given the circumstances?

What's different is that both we and Jal talked about the Stefan wagon before voting. It's not simply that we explained our votes as we cast them, but that we were commenting and talking about the wagon as it grew. Obviously I understand voting for somebody simply to get a lynch. What I don't like (and the reason we placed people like you and molla into a different group than people like ourselves, Jal and greenknight) is the fact you didn't feel obliged to explain yourselves at any point.

Until you each voted, you and BBmolla had said

nothing

about Stefan. When you voted for him, you each said nothing about why you were doing so. Yes, there's an obvious reason for voting at this point, whatever your read on Stefan -- but why not comment on how likely you think it is Stefan is actually scum when you vote?

~ Pless

[MagnaofIllusion]

But yes, we believe there is a difference between, on the one hand, explaining the votes you cast, and on the other hand, casting votes in silence and expecting other people to attribute your vote to whatever reasons they find most natural and least suspicious.

See this is the kind of over-thought and over-wordly response that I would expect form someone overjustifying their stance.

Here are the facts … Stefan had claimed VT. Deadline was in 12hours. I voted Stefan after bvoigt fake-claimed Vig because securing a lynch was paramount. Really no significant explanation is needed and the fact that you went out of your way yourself to say “OH, he’s Town but we need a lynch” is Faux Town posting.

What's different is that both we and Jal talked about the Stefan wagon before voting. It's not simply that we explained our votes as we cast them, but that we were commenting and talking about the wagon as it grew. Obviously I understand voting for somebody simply to get a lynch. What I don't like (and the reason we placed people like you and molla into a different group than people like ourselves, Jal and greenknight) is the fact you didn't feel obliged to explain yourselves at any point.

Until you each voted, you and BBmolla had said nothing about Stefan. When you voted for him, you each said nothing about why you were doing so. Yes, there's an obvious reason for voting at this point, whatever your read on Stefan -- but why not comment on how likely you think it is Stefan is actually scum when you vote?

I don’t care that you don’t like that I didn’t feel need to ‘voice’ the obvious reasons for my vote. Again … are you trying to ascribe scumminess to that situation (deadline in under 12 hours and a VT claim as one of only two viable wagons with the other being a claimed Vig)?

I didn’t have a read on Stefan. This is a large game and frankly his posting style is awkward enough that I didn’t really feel the need to sink my teeth into him. Him flipping either Town or non-Town would not have shocked me either way.

So once again – I feel you are over-working the subject in a way to frame yourself as obv-Town in a situation that didn’t require it.

[Feysal]

My analysis is there to be required, not to be foolishly squandered. Most of the limited time I have for mafia goes into just keeping up with this juggernaut, and an easy day like this when I don't need to analyze everything and everyone is very welcome. I'm not going to waste effort on pushing cases when the lynch of the day is already decided, or explaining town reads when it would likely give away my jailkeep choice.

I don't understand the bit of a contradiction you come yourself into between these two posts. Can you clarify?

I'm going to need you to clarify first what you mean, since I don't see any contradiction.

[Shadow1psc]

My analysis is there to be required, not to be foolishly squandered. Most of the limited time I have for mafia goes into just keeping up with this juggernaut, and an easy day like this when I don't need to analyze everything and everyone is very welcome. I'm not going to waste effort on pushing cases when the lynch of the day is already decided, or explaining town reads when it would likely give away my jailkeep choice.

I don't understand the bit of a contradiction you come yourself into between these two posts. Can you clarify?

I'm going to need you to clarify first what you mean, since I don't see any contradiction.

The problem I have with your last post is not that it was a catch up post, but something that literally, nearly word for word just said stuff other people said.

[Minimum]

CES, regarding Post 1283 which I missed yesterday, you may not respect people's wishes regarding the hydra head they speak to, but I was specifically addressing Mina for something Mina did, which you really aren't able to fully answer to; that's why I don't like that you answered and she didn't. I don't think anything I accused Mina of was "cartoonish villainy" or anything of the sort. For one, I don't think Mina lied for no reason; I think she lied to justify disengaging from her escalating argument with MoI, and for two, I obviously thought of it as being scummy. To the third point, the damage I was referring to was the possibility of being called out on AtE, i.e., what I did. It DID have a softening effect on me, as I almost let myself be talked into feeling bad for being on your collective case so much.

I am capable of properly answering it, so yeah. For the first point, the supposed lie really didn't do that? And you never need a reason to stop talking to MoI. For the second point, that wasn't the question; just calling it scummy is basically just restating that you don't think it seemed genuine; I want to know what you thought she was doing, what her thought process would be there as scum? As for the third, we've now gone from "cutting off criticism" to "undoing/mitigating damage" to "cutting off potential future criticism 70 posts after the post was made and no one was responding negatively"; you seem to be inclined to interpret it in a certain way based on your response but you should be able to recognise here that your theory simply doesn't work.

[Scumhunter]

I haven't sent in a jailkeep thing yet, but I'm thinking of picking Regfan because people seem to think he's town and that would mean he wouldn't die. I usually tend to avoid bigger games because I'm incredibly lazy. Also I find games with multiple scum factions harder to scumhunt due to scum's ability to fake scumhunting the other faction reasonable easily.

Pretty much all I know right now is bvoigt is claimed scum for reasons I don't know and that my slot claimed VT. That disappoints me because it means I can't

fake claim 2-shot charmer

troll the game as easily.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Pretty much all I know right now is bvoigt is claimed scum for reasons I don't know and that my slot claimed VT. That disappoints me because it means I can't fake claim 2-shot charmer troll the game as easily.

No please proceed with fake-claiming Cop and getting yourself lynched for it. Don't let the little technicality of Starbuck claiming VT get in your way.