Mafia 158: Titanium. Game over

[theomoaner]

Yes of course that is all I do Mollie (that was sarcasm in case you couldn't tell).

Do you ever do anything other than contradict yourself and then backpedal like mad?

Like Slandaar says, you have managed to have an opinion about most other things that have happened so far in this game (and meta be damned I'm playing this game, not all those others), so why are you so keen to "hang back and observe" in the case of Numbers?

And do I think that scum would draw attention to themselves? Yes I do, I've seen it many times.

[mykonian]

votecount

10506670 (5): maenara, smashbard, theomoaner, eleison, dividizzle
pirate mollie (3): Hiraki, jun, slandaar
buldermar (1): shinori
shinori (1): pirate mollie
slandaar (1): NJAC
pmysterious (1): Telo

not voting (4): pmysterious, evilpacman, buldermar, 10506670

With 16 players it is 9 to lynch (8 to no lynch)

Deadline is on the 30th of september

[pirate mollie]

Yes of course that is all I do Mollie (that was sarcasm in case you couldn't tell).

Do you ever do anything other than contradict yourself and then backpedal like mad?

Like Slandaar says, you have managed to have an opinion about most other things that have happened so far in this game (and meta be damned I'm playing this game, not all those others), so why are you so keen to "hang back and observe" in the case of Numbers?

And do I think that scum would draw attention to themselves? Yes I do, I've seen it many times.

moaner is one of your scum tactics to quotemine someone to the point where they want to commit mafia suicide by going all emo and self voting cos I must admit it is highly effective I want to slit my wrists right now. <---this is my sense of humour btw before you get all fumey over it. no but seriously. quotemining is a huge scumtell and you have been doing it like crazy hence why I think you are scum.

I was going to put myself out there to hammer numbers person when we were ready to move the day forward since I am not concerned with how I look. he had reached 8 at one point but then someone unvoted.

the trouble I am having is the whole scum slip thing that slaandar made up and I am not the only one. if we are going to lynch him I would rather it be for thurhame's neutral (too many neutral looking posts point to scum IMO, cos they are ebing super duper careful about how they post and their win condition is based on survival) posting and the numbers person non-existant case on me. like, let's lynch him for scummy behaviour and not over his confusion of his use of a term.

[theomoaner]

Mollie, any sentence that begins "I'm new to this site..." would, IMHO, refer to how you intend to play on the site, not to one specific case which would possibly have started "In the case of Numberguy...". Perhaps you can now understand why I would

possibly

have taken that out of the context you intended.

If quote mining (what ever that is) is such a huge scumtell for you then perhaps you should really be voting for me?

Another interesting thing for me, and I'm not going to use quotes here, is how you asked me to link to the bits of Numberguys newb games where scumslips and scumtells are discussed. I've done this (partially), you haven't commented on them after making an issue of it. Why?

Of course I would now be quoting your earlier statement that thurhame was neutral (not scum, not town, totally neutral) for his posts and how that has suddenly mutated into too many neutral posts pointing to scum, but that would make me scum wouldn't it, because I'd be quoting you out of context, or maybe quote mining or some such.

You are scum Mollie.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Pirate Mollie And there my vote stays until one of us is dead.

[Smashbard]

I highly doubt that theo. Mollies fighting against Numbers lynch has really made me rethink Mollies alignment. But if numbers flips town against all odds I would almost guarantee Mollie is town.

[dividizzle]

Mollie I agree that we shouldn't lynch over the scumslip itself but I think his defense has been poor. His play has seemed more scummy to me than Thurhame was.

[Eleison]

moaner is one of your scum tactics to quotemine someone to the point where they want to commit mafia suicide by going all emo and self voting cos I must admit it is highly effective I want to slit my wrists right now. <---this is my sense of humour btw before you get all fumey over it. no but seriously. quotemining is a huge scumtell and you have been doing it like crazy hence why I think you are scum.

Thinks Theomoaner is scun. Doesn't unvote Shinori/vote Theo.

I was going to put myself out there to hammer numbers person when we were ready to move the day forward since I am not concerned with how I look. he had reached 8 at one point but then someone unvoted.

Would vote to hammer Numbers, bur doesn't believe him to be scum.

the trouble I am having is the whole scum slip thing that slaandar made up and I am not the only one. if we are going to lynch him I would rather it be for thurhame's neutral (too many neutral looking posts point to scum IMO, cos they are ebing super duper careful about how they post and their win condition is based on survival) posting and the numbers person non-existant case on me. like, let's lynch him for scummy behaviour and not over his confusion of his use of a term.

More interested in lynching someone like Thurhame/Slaandar, than Numbers. Does not change vote yet.

Not to mention "not being concerned with how you look", contradicting your stance on yourself from one page (mere hours) ago.

Seriously. The line between antitown and scum is thin, and you have a foot on both sides of that line.

[pirate mollie]

Mollie I agree that we shouldn't lynch over the scumslip itself but I think his defense has been poor. His play has seemed more scummy to me than Thurhame was.

I AGREE WITH THIS ENTIRELY!!! is anyone actually reading my posts!!!

although to me thurhame stood out more with the neutral posts but I think we just have different ways of determining the degree of what is scummy. our mileages vary.

what do you think of eleison and moaner?

same question to you smash.

[theomoaner]

I highly doubt that theo. Mollies fighting against Numbers lynch has really made me rethink Mollies alignment. But if numbers flips town against all odds I would almost guarantee Mollie is town.

I agree Smashie, There is no way a scum Mollie would try to stall a lynch on a town Numbers, It's MS 101 stuff, but I'm seriously doubting we'll get a lynch on either of them with the number of flakers, lurkers and nonsense posters we have in this town.

I've also said that my vote stays there until one of us dies, and as a non-liar my vote stays there making one less for a potential Numbers lynch.

[NJAC]

Ok I'm back now, RL stuff can be very absorbing sometimes. Now I'll go and read the thread, but before that:

UNVOTE

[buldermar]

Sorry guys, had some technical difficulties yesterday. I have been set back by the recent replacing and returning. A couple things I think though:

buldemar's claim that any town player (regarding mollie) would have read previous games strikes me strangely. I still don't think I can get behind a Mollie lynch but I could get behind a numbersguy lynch and I agree that could give us a lot of information about Mollie as well.

As for numbers guy, I don't think the 'scumslip' was incredibly telling (as previously stated) but I do think his reaction has been poor, focusing on the issue and continuing to try to talk around it. I feel like town would have acknowledged that something they said was construed as scummy instead of backing into a wall and taking a me vs. them attitude.

Unvote
Vote: 10506670

That's an allegation; I made no such claim.

[theomoaner]

I'm seeing a pattern here.

After an attack (or percieved attack) on her, Mollie always asks someone else for their opinion on the attacker(s), if, and only if, the attacker has no votes on them, then as soon as (or shortly after) a vote goes on she joins the wagon. If they already have votes on she'll just vote.

Mollie has never launched a wagon in this game, which is possibly why there's no vote on me or Eleison yet.

The sequence is especially clear here, because of the lack of a vote.

In #153 Smashbard list why he has a vote on Mollie. Then...

lol. so what do you think of smash's scum list hiraki?

Then...

hiraki resorts to emotional manipulation. would like feedback if this is typical of him regardless of alignment.
smash is doing exactly what I expect scum to do: go after low hanging fruit. I would consider this a scum newb mistake for someone who has played a 5 to 10 timed games format. not sure how it matches up within an untimed game tbh.

also where are mcstab and pm.

pacman is engaged, not sure on him yet.

smash is whom I am going for I think.

First she implies that the person who's opinion she has just asked for is scum, and then says "Smash is who I am going for I think"

Not quite given up by #189 but still no one has voted on Smash

I still think smash's list is shit. he might have one but not all 3 and certainly not me.

thanks.

She then fails to mention Smash again until her list in #241, where he is town, (after which she votes NJAC on a "reaction" to a nothing attack on her, but he does have two votes.)

A similar sequence can be seen from #275 onwards with regards to a Shinori vote.

Could be nothing or it could be an attempt at avoiding a commonly accepted scumtell of being first on a wagon.

Btw mollie, just for the sake of accuracy Numbers reached L-3 at maximum, so you would never have been able to hammer.

[Maenara]

I'm seeing a pattern here.

So am I. Namely, this game isn't going anywhere.

Now, I haven't been here a lot. There are a number of reasons for that, chief of which are physical illness, bad mood, and a serious wish to avoid having to read through this. Now that the former two are mostly gone, I had to do away with the third as well.

You people sure don't make it easy.

What we need, right now, if this game is to get anywhere, is a lynch. Not just any lynch, of course, but not because anyone is particularly indispensable - Only because we wouldn't be able to get just any lynch through. Whenever we find something legitimately scummy - and we have, multiple times - we split into damned fractions and get nowhere. Let's face it, a lot of us are bad players. For most of us who are, it's because we're new, but that doesn't change the facts. And so we tunnel on certain individuals, so we refuse to follow their leads, or those of the people who agree with them.

And we'll never get anywhere like that.

There's been a lot of activity already, there honestly has. It hasn't been a full Day 1 yet, but it's gotten a bit of the way. But we're stalling, because this is turning into a quagmire. So we need a target we can all agree on. Not necessarily the most scummy to any given person, but someone we can all agree that we need to remove.

That person is, of course,

Shinori

.

I don't want to lynch him the most. There are others who I find legitimately scummy. He's not so much one of them. But he is terrible. He has done nothing to move the game forward, what-so-ever, he has tunnelled almost solely on two players, and worst of all? He's said that he doesn't care if we lynch him.

No town ever says that when they're not in danger.

He's not the lynch Gotham wants, but he's the lynch Gotham needs.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Shinori

[Smashbard]

I'd be down for a shinori lynch. It accomplishes 3 things. Lynches a lurker. Lynches a useless player, town or scum. And of course, moves the game forward so we can gather real evidence and info.

[Smashbard]

However, we have the most lurktastic antitown group of players in the history of ever. So you'll never get 9 players to agree on a lynch. I can almost guarantee that there is active scum among us. And they will derail every lynch attempt.

[Smashbard]

Hence why my top scum picks as of now are Numbers, for his scumslip. And Mollie, Telo and Hiraki. For their refusal to help the town and constant attempts to undermine every wagon.

[Smashbard]

Even if Mollie or Telo is town, shes in my policy lynch pile of Mollie, Telo, Shinori, NJAC and Evilpacman for borderline game abandonment or just refusing to be useful.

[Smashbard]

I See dividizzle, theo, eleison, buldermar and maenara as town right now.

[Hiraki]

I have not gone to any emotional alignment thanks.

If anyone has been swayed by the emotion of my posts, I'd like them to tell me.

AtE is really becoming a horrible tell and one that people(regardless of alignment) use to say "lol his cases isn't faulty"

I know I'm stalling as well--but I'll have something big before deadline(not like day of before but a few days before)

[Shinori]

I've stated my thoughts on the people that people want to lynch, numbers and mollie.

I don't want to lynch numbers and I'm okay with a pirate lynch.

I still legit think Elie is scum.

And Mcstab subbing out or whatever has bad vibes with me.

So sue me.

[Smashbard]

Oh hi shinori. Fancy seeing you show up the second someone votes for you.

[10506670]

I've done my best to compile some of the responses against me, but as I'm not the best quote user, bear with me.

Seriously theomoaner? This isn't intended as an attack on you personally, but you really need to pay a bit more attention to exactly what you're condemning. I had a general idea of what a scumslip is - it's something that seems to implicate the user as scum. If you had actually read my second newbie game (1253), you would have realized this from the Conman "scumslip". But my point is that my previous definition differed in the

slight nuance

that both town and scum can scumslip*. It's a slight difference, but it really makes a difference in light of the accusations thrown at me.

Speaking of which, Slandaar, you are not responding at all to my numerous clarifications. You did, however, find the time to question Mollie about her unresponsiveness on me. I'm not saying that that's an invalid point, but are you /ignoring everything I've been saying?

*indicates my previous definition

You're still confusing scumtells with scumslips. Scumslips are when you say something that implicates you as scum. Scumtells are actions that you do that can be construed as scummy.


Here's some wiki entries for you so that you may finally understand that you are wrong, that you can't just change definitions to your liking to weasel your way out of suspicion, and hopefully you just surrender yourself as scum and allow us to move on to start finding your scum partners Day 2.

http://wiki.scumhunt.com/index.php?title=Scumslip

Scumslipping is something you say that gives you up as mafia, 100%.

http://wiki.scumhunt.com/index.php?title=Scumtell

Subjective tells that what you do is a scummy action. These are the things that town and mafia can both do.

Town and mafia do NOT scumslip. Only mafia scumslips. So anybody who's still stuck on this line of reasoning can be at the top of my scumlist. Be warned.

Thanks Smash. I think I understand both terms now, so no more need for anyone else to clarify.

But that wasn't the point. I was elaborating on my

previous meaning

, and I'm not stuck up with it anymore. If you really think that someone discretely explained the difference between a scumslip and a scumtell to me before, you're wrong. With this new knowledge, I can summarize my previous misunderstanding as

a confusion between the terms scumslip and scumtell.

And lord hesus, you're starting to slander me hard(pun intended). "you can't just change definitions to your liking to weasel your way out of suspicion"? Does it really look like that's what I've been doing? My clarifications are happening in the past, and though I did misuse the world scumslip once above, this is resolved. You can have the last word on this one, but we're not getting anywhere.

Do I actually have to read through these newbie games...

Some people, they want the moon on a stick....

From Newb 1244, I think the context here is easily understood to mean only scum can scumslip.

Hey y'all. I'm Gliffie, arriving a bit late to the party. It'll be fun playing with you all

Johnny are you trying to say you would play the same as town as you do as scum? Or is this a possible scumslip here?

phdjnkrnfkernk. I absolutely

hate

it when people say shit like "possible scumslip?". The whole logic is pants on head retarded. Scum are the most cautious players in the game (along with the doc), so why on earth would they slip up? Yeah, it might happen, especially here in newbie games (just look at <numbers>), but more often than not it's just some scrub-a-bub townie, and I know that feel. To be honest, I feel like scum are more likely to do the whole "ooh, scumslip??" charade. At least that's how it is in my experience.

And then there is this passage from 1244 which talks about scum tells, again I think from the context its obvious that Thor665 is talking about town who are behaving as scum and so exhibiting tells instead of slips.

Thor, you did lead a few mislynches. (all of them if memory serves.)

I also lead the only correct lynch we had and jailed scum 3 out of 4 times.
So...yeah, good case.

A specific example would be how long you waited to claim. It's

good because it would draw out any scum claims

, and you're teaching the newer players patience and to think for themselves.

But then again, there's obviously a clear scum advantage there

.

So it could be done for either a pro town or pro scum gain - you need to look at it in context at that point and figure out what I was doing it for.
At the core - this is a null tell until you do that.

Another example is

when

you claimed. You kept calling yourself confirmed town and was flaunting it. On the one hand, your Thor. I don't expect anything less. On the other hand, scum would be pretty happy if they were considered confirmed town.

I was confirmed town...so...
And flaunting is a character trait. It clearly isn't a scumtell.

ANOTHER example (that doesn't have to deal with the claim), would be that half the time it seems like you're purposely trying to trip people up by constantly asking loaded questions. Again, I see the IC potential (and the Thor asshole personality), but it could also be used as a way to pin someone as scum.

It could also be taken as scumhunting and trying to force people to think.
Again, it's, at best, a null tell until you look at it in perspective. Was I using it to make people think and to get reads, or was I using it to trip people up and lynch them?

And finally, you pushed the Wray wagon. While you may have actually thought she was scum, I find it hard to believe just because of how incredibly TOWNIE she was. (PEDIT: Damn it Johnny!)

Wray was not incredibly townie in my opinion - and neither was she in the opinion of 2 other town (and, for a while, yourself)
For this to be a scumtell you have to be able to show some sort of evidence that I *did* believe she was incredibly townie....and didn't care.
That would make it very scummy.
Otherwise it's called a difference of opinion (take, for example, me calling Johnny and 2139-048 obv. town - I did so early and did so correctly, and I questioned people who voted them but never used it as a case against anyone...because I understood that just because I saw them as town didn't mean everyone did. Instead I spent time trying to understand *why* people saw them as scum. aka 'scumhunting')

I don't have the time right now to go through 1253 to find the posts, but you should get the idea from these that I think from this game alone Numbers ~should~ understand what everyone else on site means by scumslip.

I'd be happy to return my vote to Mollie as I to think she and Number-guy are both team scum, her comments on thurhame read to me as an attempt at covering for her partner, Thurhame's vote on mollie contained no logic and looked like scum distancing.

I think EPM has flaked, he's posting elsewhere but not here. I don't like the way he tried to stall the Numerical-guy wagon.
I'd happily lynch Telo too, I'm not with the "have a hissy fit if people disagree with me" thing she is doing right now.

At least you looked up my meta this time. But you realize the difference between "scumslip" and "scumtell" isn't all that much? At the time (

at the time not right now

), I believed that a scumslip was essentially what we now have agreed is a scumtell. If you haven't realized already, in light of the case against me, that makes a huge difference.

There's almost nothing I can do to convince you anymore of my intentions. If you had brought some statements explicitly stating a difference between scumslip and scumtell maybe you would have a point. But none of these passages imply any difference between them. They're not real words after all.

Sorry guys, had some technical difficulties yesterday. I have been set back by the recent replacing and returning. A couple things I think though:

buldemar's claim that any town player (regarding mollie) would have read previous games strikes me strangely. I still don't think I can get behind a Mollie lynch but I could get behind a numbersguy lynch and I agree that could give us a lot of information about Mollie as well.

As for numbers guy, I don't think the 'scumslip' was incredibly telling (as previously stated) but I do think his reaction has been poor, focusing on the issue and continuing to try to talk around it. I feel like town would have acknowledged that something they said was construed as scummy instead of backing into a wall and taking a me vs. them attitude.

Unvote
Vote: 10506670

Look, dividizzle, the reason that I'm still holding up for myself is because it wasn't a scumtell. I would never acknowledge something that is a neutral tell as a scum tell. I'd suggest reading some of my previous posts in greater detail.

Persona off. I'm not trying to talk around the issue. Everything you've been hearing is genuine, straight logic and reasoning. How exactly am I talking around it?

[Jun]

I wouldn't say that the numbers guy's misuse of terminology is a scumtell at all. He probably just messed up. I still think we should lynch pirate mollie for being way scummier with the whole deflecting attention from self via asking others opinions on the person who calls her out.

Smashbard seems pretty town, too and is trying to help us get stuff done. I refuse to vote for numbers guy or shinori, and would much rather lynch pirate mollie.

[evilpacman18]

I'm gonna hammer the first person to reach L-1 so that I can give myself time to catch up over the night.

[theomoaner]

I'm seeing a pattern here.

So am I. Namely, this game isn't going anywhere.

Yes, that as well

There's been a lot of activity already, there honestly has. It hasn't been a full Day 1 yet, but it's gotten a bit of the way. But we're stalling, because this is turning into a quagmire. So we need a target we can all agree on. Not necessarily the most scummy to any given person, but someone we can all agree that we need to remove.

That person is, of course, Shinori.

I don't want to lynch him the most. There are others who I find legitimately scummy. He's not so much one of them. But he is terrible. He has done nothing to move the game forward, what-so-ever, he has tunnelled almost solely on two players, and worst of all? He's said that he doesn't care if we lynch him.

This post just stinks of near deadline panic.
If you find others legitimately scummy, then it would be more use to explain who and your view on why.
We really need to be hitting scum here, rather than voting for those we just don't like. I don't like policy lynches, they rarely hit scum in my experience. I think its also a little early to be thinking of a policy lynch. We still have three or four days to present evidence and try to reach a consensus (although I won't be changing my vote).

I'm gonna hammer the first person to reach L-1 so that I can give myself time to catch up over the night.

You have just gone from the edge of my scum pile to the top.

If I were to vote on the just not liking them principle, I'd vote Telo over Shinori any day. She's contributed little to town, has lots of ever-so-slightly scummy IIoA posts, and followed up with a good dose of histrionics when she has been quizzed over her one big idea (could that be called Telodrama?). I think, at this point, Telo is probably town, but there is enough scumminess there to justify a "long-odds" vote.

Shinori is a player who I believe doesn't know himself why he plays. (I can't discuss why I have this opinion, it relates to an ongoing game.)