Mafia 158: Titanium. Game over

[combinatorialEnigma]

I don't care much about the slip, but I want him dead regardless.

Also, is that video-posting even within site rules? Isn't it communication outside the game kinda... Banned?

#Do not bring outside influences into the game - this includes threats, bribes, wagers, promises, alliances, etc. Using knowledge from previous games is perfectly acceptable, but try not to carry grudges from one game to another.
# Do not talk outside the game thread about an ongoing game except where explicitly allowed to do so by your role/moderator. Likewise, do not use bbcode to hide secret messages - this equates to discussion outside the thread.

There is no threat, bribe, wager, promise, alliance, hidden message, or indeed anything serious at all in the video post.

I'm just having some fun.

[Jun]

Here, some questions to help me clarify my reads :

@Maenara: what happened with your case on Jun? why to pick dividizzle instead? and what do you think about the Masons?

@Eleison: I would really like to hear more from you, care to elaborate about your case on CE?

@numbers: you didn't answer why you think Maenara is town, care to answer?

@Hiraki: what do you think about the Masons and Jun? I'd also like to hear your read on me.

@TBM: you need to take a stance. What do you think about the Masons and Maenara? What have you found after rereading the Shinori's wagon you also supported?

@Theo: I agree with your comments about night actions. Do you think Mae is scummier than CE?

@Buldermar: you were very pro-town yesterday but you have not done enough today imo. Any comments about the Shinori wagon you led? Also I'm expecting you to elaborate about your sheeping Maenara with the Divid wagon.

@Jun: you ramble a lot, but I still see you as town. Take a stance on this: Masons claim is true or false?

@Dividizzle I see you took a stance, but why Jun instead of CE, even more when you said something like: "...that could easily be a scumslip especially considering the implicit gloating"?

@Enigma: Care to elaborate about your case on Masons fakeclaiming? and why to choose Smashbard instead of Eleison?

@Smashbard: sorry, no questions for you yet

Masons claim I hesitantly accept as true for now, but if one of them doesn't die and flip mason in the coming days, it will raise my suspicions.

[buldermar]

@Buldermar: you were very pro-town yesterday but you have not done enough today imo. Any comments about the Shinori wagon you led? Also I'm expecting you to elaborate about your sheeping Maenara with the Divid wagon.

Thank you for considering me pro-town yesterday. I entirely agree that I have not done enough today. I'd even go as far as stating that I have done nothing today.

I was obviously hoping for Shinori to be scum. Even if he was the most likely person to be scum based on available information, he's still far more likely to be town than scum because scum occupies far less roles in the game. I'm dissapointed that he was town, but I don't regret pushing his lynch and I don't think I misinterpreted the available information.

Knowing that he was town yields information, although less than knowing that he was scum would have. I'm not actually sheeping Maenara, I'm just being too lazy to elaborate on my reasons. I feel like it doesn't make a huge difference in this game because most seem too preoccupied with throwing accusations to deliberately reflect on something. In addition, my case isn't that strong.

I'll try to briefly elaborate.

I think that Dividizzle has been fencesitting a ton in this game. In chronological order:

I fear that scumhunting is being lost in the quibbling. How would people feel about a NJAC lynch?

Vote: NJAC

Testing.

I could support a Mcstab lynch. Although the fact that we now know he has requested replacement means in theory we should give the replacement a chance to say hello.

Suggestive but not committing.

I don't like the speed at which Shinori got votes, though I will say his defense was less than convincing. Also, the "die"/didn't know it was hammer seems very suspicious to me.

Implies that wagon was scumdriven, but also implies that it can be justified, which, in turn, allows for Dividizzle to conveniently join should it be required.

Also should be pointed out, that aside from Smash and Eleison, the two that were on the final Mollie wagon as well as the Shinori wagon that rapidly gained steam were buldemar and hiraki. Buldemar is on the Mollie wagon despite not really having too much fault with Mollie (correct me if I'm wrong), but he states that he'd rather see a Mollie lynch than no lynch. Then on day 2 proceeds to go right after shinori. I may be grasping at straws but that seems like blaming shinori for an incorrect mollie lynch that he participated on but distanced himself from.

Suggestive but not committing. This leaves a door open if people start voting me for some reason, but at the same time allows him to preserve his own vote for a (at the time) better target.

My read on combinatorial is less developed. First impression is leaning town. I'm not quite clear (perhaps because I just finished reading his iso) where his case on Jun becomes so intense. He seems very certain at this point but that surprises me a bit. Other than that, his early posts struck me as quite town, though since then not as much. Still probably leaning town and I would definitely advocate a Jun lynch over a combinatorial lynch.

This is particularly interesting if you compare it to:

Div: useless lurker (yeah, yeah, I know I'm being hypocritical by calling out someone else on that), not sure but leaning lurky town.

Anyway, my case is thin and I'm a bit demotivated for several reasons. Qwints was putting a lot of effort into the game. Without him, the ratio of actual content and pointless accusations is pretty bad. Furthermore, I think I'm quite likely to get killed tonight. Finally, I simply can't make sense of this game right now. For some reason it's a complete mess in my head. I should go over things methodically and start ruling out certain permutations, but I havn't had the desire as of yet.

[mykonian]

votecount

combinatorialEnigma (4): smashbard, jun, theomoaner, eleison
maenara (3): hiraki, NJAC, theomoaner
jun (2): 10506670, dividizzle
dividizzle (2): maenara, buldermar
smashbard (1): combinatorialEnigma

not voting (1): Thebuttonmen

With 12 players it is 7 to lynch (6 to no lynch)

deadline is on the 27th of oktober

[Maenara]

Request that the Mod resolves the question of whether or not CombinatorialEnigma's actions fell outside site rules.

If they don't, 's all good, but I wasn't sure if you saw it while it was non-bolded.

[mykonian]

they were well within the rules

[Maenara]

Good to know ^_^

[NJAC]

Lol I just saw the video. Maybe we should lynch Jun just to see this guy eating that hat...

[combinatorialEnigma]

I had a fedora that I was going to use for this but I couldn't find it.

[TheButtonmen]

Jun answer the damn question.

@TBM: you need to take a stance. What do you think about the Masons and Maenara? What have you found after rereading the Shinori's wagon you also supported?

Supported, hell I'm taking credit for it.

Qwint's doesn't come out looking rosey with his swap onto it once it starts gaining momentum but never commenting on it (see his other posts that day / post his vote for Shin).

Hikari apparently doesn't reread as his half his rational for pivoting onto Mae today never actually happened.

[Jun]

[quote="In post 1184I think we should cut her some slack at least until a CE flip.

What bearing does CE's flip have on your Mae read? Why do you want to let her slide until then?[/quote]

Sorry, I didn't notice this question. I think that CE and Maenara are both scummy, however I believe CE is more scummy than Maenara so I want to lynch CE today (letting Maenara slide for today) with the intention of picking back up the Maenara train tomorrow. I don't know what CE's flip would have on Maenara's read, only that I find CE more scummy due to his hat comment.

[Jun]

I don't care much about the slip, but I want him dead regardless.

Also, is that video-posting even within site rules? Isn't it communication outside the game kinda... Banned?

#Do not bring outside influences into the game - this includes threats, bribes, wagers, promises, alliances, etc. Using knowledge from previous games is perfectly acceptable, but try not to carry grudges from one game to another.
# Do not talk outside the game thread about an ongoing game except where explicitly allowed to do so by your role/moderator. Likewise, do not use bbcode to hide secret messages - this equates to discussion outside the thread.

There is no threat, bribe, wager, promise, alliance, hidden message, or indeed anything serious at all in the video post.

I'm just having some fun.

Yes, there IS a bribe/promise in your video. That you'll attempt to eat your hat if I flip town. I don't think that's allowed, especially since now NJAC wants to lynch me for the lolz. NJAC either is foolishly confident that I'm a town read, or has scum knowledge that I am town.

What if I made a video and said I would eat a shoe if all the mafia just -suicided right now? I just don't like the precedent of this or the added incentive that people now have to lynch me just so they can see you attempt to eat a hat.

[Jun]

Also a bit unrelated, but I feel like I've seen that same hat (and you?) in another game. Can't remember if it was on this site or on another, but someone made a promise to eat a hat if someone flipped town and then they posted a picture of them attempting but in the end ate a candy hat. Not sure if you're the same guy, or if this is some weird deja-vu moment.

[NJAC]

Just to clarify I was not serious about your lynch and you should ignore the video if it annoys you...

[combinatorialEnigma]

I don't care much about the slip, but I want him dead regardless.

Also, is that video-posting even within site rules? Isn't it communication outside the game kinda... Banned?

#Do not bring outside influences into the game - this includes threats, bribes, wagers, promises, alliances, etc. Using knowledge from previous games is perfectly acceptable, but try not to carry grudges from one game to another.
# Do not talk outside the game thread about an ongoing game except where explicitly allowed to do so by your role/moderator. Likewise, do not use bbcode to hide secret messages - this equates to discussion outside the thread.

There is no threat, bribe, wager, promise, alliance, hidden message, or indeed anything serious at all in the video post.

I'm just having some fun.

Yes, there IS a bribe/promise in your video. That you'll attempt to eat your hat if I flip town. I don't think that's allowed, especially since now NJAC wants to lynch me for the lolz. NJAC either is foolishly confident that I'm a town read, or has scum knowledge that I am town.

What if I made a video and said I would eat a shoe if all the mafia just -suicided right now? I just don't like the precedent of this or the added incentive that people now have to lynch me just so they can see you attempt to eat a hat.

If people are taking me seriously enough that a video of eating a hat influences their vote, that's pretty fucking anti-town on their part.

PEdit: okay NJAC said he was joking about that. Good.

There's no precedent being set, there's no incentive for anything unless someone doesn't have any opinions and doesn't care about the game. I'm just doing this because it amuses me.

And anyway my reading of that rule is that it only applies to deliberate attempts of "do x for me, and I'll do something gamebreaking". Whereas my video is "if this ends up happening, receive nothing of value."

I would say that you're scum trying to push for a modkill, but I don't think anyone can be dumb enough to do that after the mod said that I was well within the rules (post 1205).

Also a bit unrelated, but I feel like I've seen that same hat (and you?) in another game. Can't remember if it was on this site or on another, but someone made a promise to eat a hat if someone flipped town and then they posted a picture of them attempting but in the end ate a candy hat. Not sure if you're the same guy, or if this is some weird deja-vu moment.

I've never used that hat, or any other hat, for this purpose before. Weird deja vu moment.

[Jun]

I don't care much about the slip, but I want him dead regardless.

Also, is that video-posting even within site rules? Isn't it communication outside the game kinda... Banned?

#Do not bring outside influences into the game - this includes threats, bribes, wagers, promises, alliances, etc. Using knowledge from previous games is perfectly acceptable, but try not to carry grudges from one game to another.
# Do not talk outside the game thread about an ongoing game except where explicitly allowed to do so by your role/moderator. Likewise, do not use bbcode to hide secret messages - this equates to discussion outside the thread.

There is no threat, bribe, wager, promise, alliance, hidden message, or indeed anything serious at all in the video post.

I'm just having some fun.

Yes, there IS a bribe/promise in your video. That you'll attempt to eat your hat if I flip town. I don't think that's allowed, especially since now NJAC wants to lynch me for the lolz. NJAC either is foolishly confident that I'm a town read, or has scum knowledge that I am town.

What if I made a video and said I would eat a shoe if all the mafia just -suicided right now? I just don't like the precedent of this or the added incentive that people now have to lynch me just so they can see you attempt to eat a hat.

If people are taking me seriously enough that a video of eating a hat influences their vote, that's pretty fucking anti-town on their part.

PEdit: okay NJAC said he was joking about that. Good.

There's no precedent being set, there's no incentive for anything unless someone doesn't have any opinions and doesn't care about the game. I'm just doing this because it amuses me.

And anyway my reading of that rule is that it only applies to deliberate attempts of "do x for me, and I'll do something gamebreaking". Whereas my video is "if this ends up happening, receive nothing of value."

I would say that you're scum trying to push for a modkill, but I don't think anyone can be dumb enough to do that after the mod said that I was well within the rules (post 1205).

Also a bit unrelated, but I feel like I've seen that same hat (and you?) in another game. Can't remember if it was on this site or on another, but someone made a promise to eat a hat if someone flipped town and then they posted a picture of them attempting but in the end ate a candy hat. Not sure if you're the same guy, or if this is some weird deja-vu moment.

I've never used that hat, or any other hat, for this purpose before. Weird deja vu moment.

Do you even think I will flip scum? Why include some random gimmick specifically if I get lynched? The huge fuss you've raised about this doesn't sit well with me at all.

[Smashbard]

I really want Enigma lynched, but I gotta admit, Theo's got a great point that I don't think should be ignored. Maenara has been consistently begging the possibility of their being an SK, which after two night phases makes zero sense for a town player to be insinuating. There is literally zero evidence that we can see that would suggest that. So Maenara very well could be scum who knows that their personal kills have not gone through.

If that is true, it gives me hope that we actually DO have some power roles still out there, because someone is doing a bang up job at protecting kill targets if there are two killers out there.

[theomoaner]

@Theo: I agree with your comments about night actions. Do you think Mae is scummier than CE?

Yes I do.

Speaking of Maenara and Enigma, I found this strange.

I don't care much about the slip, but I want him dead regardless.

Maenaras case on Enigma is that he is lurkerscum, a case that has not been improved upon other to add that he has been bussing her other scumread Dividizzle, but without having any evidence to back this up. She even makes the point that she doesn't even care about the one potentially scummy thing he has done, which means that she is pushing for

another

policy lynch on a lurker.

She actually made a semi-convincing case on dividizzle but nobody bought it, so instead of trying to improve it she went back to policy lynch on a lurker.

[Maenara]

For the record, my problem with Enigma posting that video is that it gives him a downright ridiculous advantage. Body language and similar are incredibly important to communication, so the fact that he posts a video of himself is as close to cheating as you can get without it apparently being so.

@Theo: I agree with your comments about night actions. Do you think Mae is scummier than CE?

Yes I do.

Speaking of Maenara and Enigma, I found this strange.

I don't care much about the slip, but I want him dead regardless.

Maenaras case on Enigma is that he is lurkerscum, a case that has not been improved upon other to add that he has been bussing her other scumread Dividizzle, but without having any evidence to back this up. She even makes the point that she doesn't even care about the one potentially scummy thing he has done, which means that she is pushing for

another

policy lynch on a lurker.

She actually made a semi-convincing case on dividizzle but nobody bought it, so instead of trying to improve it she went back to policy lynch on a lurker.

The hell I did. I'm still on Dividizzle, and for good reason. I said I wanted him dead, not that I wanted him lynched now. I still want people to explain why they're not in favour of lynching Dividizzle. Like Buldermar indicated, though, I've got him tied up with Enigma, and this, combined with the latter's less-than-stellar record, is why I want him dead too. Of course, now his video comes and gets me all confused, which annoys me to no end. If another video is posted, I'm replacing out, because that is just bullshit.

@Maenara: what happened with your case on Jun? why to pick dividizzle instead? and what do you think about the Masons?

My case on Jun doesn't synch up as well as it should with his recent behaviour, and it confuses me. I've still got him as a weak scumread, but no more than that, whereas Dividizzle is pretty much asking to die. As for the masons... I don't like it. I can't get myself to lynch them today, but I don't trust them.

[Smashbard]

I hate to admit it, but at this point I don't think scum would so blatantly keep on this stupid hat thing just to get a rise out of Jun and I. Scum by their nature have to be self preservationists, and openly taunting all of us with his wine and hat jokes is practically begging for people to call on him for a lynch based on policy. Hell, he might even be a Jester, wanting to be lynched. But at least I'm having second thoughts as to his scumminess.

Unvote.

Vote: Maenara

I think Qwints would want this lynch more than anybody.

[Maenara]

I hate to admit it, but at this point I don't think scum would so blatantly keep on this stupid hat thing just to get a rise out of Jun and I.

WIFOM.

Scum by their nature have to be self preservationists,

Or just stupid.

and openly taunting all of us with his wine and hat jokes is practically begging for people to call on him for a lynch based on policy.

I thought you weren't in favour of those?

Hell, he might even be a Jester, wanting to be lynched.

No, he can't be. This isn't a bastard game. He is not a Jester. Stop trying to spread confusion.

But at least I'm having second thoughts as to his scumminess.

Try looking at his actual play rather than this moronic exchange of bad jokes. Better yet, take a gander at Dividizzle.

Unvote.

Vote: Maenara

I think Qwints would want this lynch more than anybody.

Because the player who had recently returned to Mafia, and whose reads had been proven elsewhere to be outdated, who was also tunneling to an extreme degree... That player, yes, he must obviously have known exactly what to do, and we should hence do exactly what he would have done... yesterday.

Yeah, no.

Tell me, Smashbard - What did you and your "mason"-buddy agree on for today? He seems to be lying low a bit.

[theomoaner]

Qwint's doesn't come out looking rosey with his swap onto it once it starts gaining momentum but never commenting on it (see his other posts that day / post his vote for Shin).

I'm not getting the relevence of this.

The hell I did. I'm still on Dividizzle, and for good reason...

Really? No Really? but you've not been pushing him, asking questions of him, trying to get him talking, or anything. You've basically been being pissy with others for not joining you on your grand crusade against all things dividizzle, not trying to build on your case in any way.

If you don't want CE lynched how do you propose he dies? At the hands of an SK maybe? It's not like he's going to be NK'd is he, he is on their team according to you.

[Smashbard]

Tell me, Smashbard - What did you and your "mason"-buddy agree on for today? He seems to be lying low a bit.

To give you as much insight as I can, Elieson didn't say much of anything til the very end of the night phase when he declared to me that he was back from his trip to Disneyland. He seemed very distraught that Shinori flipped town, and thus I suspect that he's having the same problem Buldermar is having. We've mislynched again and again, and it IS very demoralizing to have to witness our reads be failures again and again.

Unfortunately, with no investigative roles coming out to let us know they have found something, we're basically screwed. I think the ONLY reason I have been as active as I have this day phase is due to pure stubborness. I refuse to let the scum have a perfect game, as even if I could just nail one of you guys before I die I would consider that a victory in it's own right.

But I can hardly blame anybody at this point for wanting to just give up. We're not getting any help from power roles, and quite frankly, our scumhunting sucks. So I don't blame Elieson for not participating much.


As for that insight I promised you, the most I was able to talking to myself was express frustration on our failures thus far. I said Enigma screamed scum to me at this point for his Jun gloating, as well as believing all four scum were on the Shinori wagon. Namely at the time, it was Hiraki, NJAC, Maenara & Enigma.

My reads haven't changed much. Beyond switching out one or two of you based on todays interactions.

Before that, Elieson and I were convinced Shinori was scum and wanted him lynched more than anyone. I think a lot of us were convinced Shinori was scum. And now that he has flipped wrongly, most of us have either threw in the towel or are close to giving up.

I'd say if you or Enigma flipped wrong I'd replace out due to the sheer shame of my failure as a scumhunter. But I'm going to see this game to the bitter end.

[Smashbard]

Oh yeah, and I said that if one of us should die the other should use their confirmed mason status to demand a mass claim from the rest of the players in this game to try and get SOME help into lynching the right people.

[Jun]

Is it at all possible that this is a cult v. masons game with Maenara as the sk performing kills every night?

-This accounts for Maenara insisting that there's a third party killer in the game despite only 1 night kill each night.
-Assuming the masons are who they say they are, and assuming cult mechanics that I'm familiar with, cult v. mason with say, 2 cult, 1 cult leader, 1 sk, and the rest as citizens, cult leader can recruit 1 person a night, gets bludgeoned to death if he recruits a mason. Basically this is a "hidden" 2kpn game where cultists become converted and I guess we already outed the masons, our only check against the cult.

Is cult allowed in a "large normal" setup?