Open 463: Black Flag Nightless (Game Over)

[Soul2277]

Why meta talk aside? If you think meta reasons given are bad then why not give meta reasons on how it's wrong (or reasons on why a meta read isn't good for ceru).

~Mehdi

[Soul2277]

mehdi to the doc

[JesseSheffield]

Why meta talk aside? If you think meta reasons given are bad then why not give meta reasons on how it's wrong (or reasons on why a meta read isn't good for ceru).

Because I'd like to see Thor have to give competent in-game research to support his read on Cerulean 1. because I'm wondering if Thor is capable of doing it and 2. to see if Thor is basing 100% of his read on meta.

[Soul2277]

I should make an alt account as ZombiePiggy, and then finally,

finally

people might stop wanting to eat me

Did you see that v/la post? Holy crap guys! Scum has seriously been caught!

(jk UNVOTE: )
I understand N bandwagoning, he likes bandwagons, but Equinox didn't even put a silly sentance in there to make me feel better about being brought to L-2 on page 1
VOTE: Equinox
Clearly a lazy band-wagoning scum looking for an easy lynch.

On my read through (page 1 don't hate me) this immediately stuck out to me...

Notice the similarities?

Ya. I'm investigating this further.

~ OS

[Cerulean]

I apologize for the incoming wall that's about to happen, but etc.

There are a few things I'd like to address and if you haven't realized yet that the puppy is scum, I want to show you more for why they are.

First - Thor - we wont be knocking our heads together yet as our schedules for this part of the week don't mesh all that well. But we are both in complete agreement that the puppies are mafia.

Second - saw the question about whether other head played at westeros and meta research. It actually wouldn't matter. And no the games are not easy to identify who is who. The alts are constantly changing and we wo have played in the games have a hard time finding things when we try to go back. It wouldn't matter anyway because meta research is something that isn't allowed to be used as part of a case against someone, which is probably why this head doesn't do it.

Third - the situation with Jesse. And I could just get into a wall off I suppose, but I'm not on my computer which makes quote striping near impossible. I know, sadness abounds right? I'm trying to make sense of the reaction to me. I realize at times I'm a difficult person to play with, but I don't know exactly where you got that I have a superiority complex. I can assure you that I actually dont. I'm a decent Scumhunter most games, but the thing I'm best at is looking town when I'm town. I am, however, a bit temperamental with a tendency to be a bit sarcastic/condescending to those I think are scum or exhibiting scummy behavior. So, when you voted me in Post 179 for not responding when I hadn't made it to that part of he thread yet, that part of my reaction kicked in. Maybe some of it was unwarranted, who knows. Nothing was intentionally insulting.

I'm not sure in Post 206 why you're bringing in my question about piggy's case as scummy. My other head thinks that some things you brought up read genuine and town, so I'm going to go with that, and try not to view it as a mischaracterization of my interaction with Thor. I made it clear that I was trying to get a rea on Thor. Said more than once that he has fooled me in the past so I was going to interact with him to try o get a read on him. I have a scum read on sixty. My question to Thor about sixty's case on piggy was both to help me round out my read on thor and to get perspective on piggy/sixty. As far as my Post 106 that has nothing to do with pandering. He had recently voted us, but I was sure in time he'd realize we were town, and we'd be able to work together instead of against each other. I realize you don't know me, but thors not the type of player that I'd argue with and potentially provoke as scum. Well maybe one day, but I'm very insecure about my scum game, and would have gone a very different route to try to get on thors good side. Yeah I know self meta is useless.

Regarding Post 232 I do get early reads on people from their first posts and sometimes I've been really right. I'm not stuck in my reads though and they fluctuate so sometimes I'll get a scum read and later posts will tell me I've been wrong, but you have to start somewhere.

I'm confused about Post 244 because you're not taking into account the whole picture. There was no we were soft attacking piggy. Both of us had read a couple games with piggy!scum and her first couple of posts did look similar. However when we talked about it, I had said that she also reminded me of a game we were currently playing in (I was dead in though) they had just lynched the day before but the mod hadn't posted the flip. I told him it was possible the game would be ending soon I'd they lynched correctly, in which case she would be town and playing similarly there as here. There is no we are waiting to attack piggy later as I have a town read on her based on the game we played together, which is the type of meta this head focuses mostly on. In Post 82 I said I was leaning town on piggy.

I believe other head voted absta's for unvoting without re-voting. I in post 82 said another post by absta's felt genuine and that I wanted to vote for sixty but needed to talk to empire. When we talked about being a hydra we agreed that we would be unified on our votes, and I was respecting that.

I'll focus on the sixty piggy case, maybe tonight probably tomorrow it's getting late, but you asked about how scum reacted to piggy so I went back and looked at the game we just finished. I'm horrible at paying attention to wagons and just said she was a mislynch I wouldn't lose any tears over in that game, but at one point three out of four scum had jumped aboard the piggy wagon as the early mislynch.

You are, I'd you are town, misinterpreting my questions concerning piggy. I think piggy is likely town; I think sixty is mafia. My questions to people about sixty and their case on piggy was to pin down opinions on sixty. I am in no way trying to push others to do my dirty work. I think the case on piggy is bad and I want others opinions on it/them. Cases exist to tell you as much if not more about the case maker than the person the case is on?

I don't like the way you say "finally" like I took weeks to say something instead of a day. It is these types of things that make me doubt my other heads reading of you as genuine. For instance when you voted us for not responding although it should have been clear I was making my way through the thread and responding to things as they came.

I don't feel stuck with the sixty wagon. I have a scum read there. I'm perfectly happy with my vote where it is and will eat a bag full of top hats if they come back town here.

The only person I have argued with is Thor. And I made it clear that I was trying to get a read on him as well. Did we talk around each other a bit? Sure. I feel like an idiot that I missed his answer about piggy and the Thor meta question. I don't think he caught what I was pointing out about my other head and the meta research until the end, and we're only starting to get somewhere on the debate over the sixty piggy case (not to mention what my read is on him), But beyond that I've posed questions to equinox, who I had a scum read, and to you, who I had a scum read on, and to voided, who I have a scum read on. (and to be fair the only people I showed real attitude/snarkiness/condescension to were you and Thor)

Foruth N - regarding your town read. It didn't have anything to do with your meta talk though the way you questioned her kniwledge of you band wagoning felt natural enough. Where we got out town read of you was your Post 24 where you were like "let me get this straight...". Felt really town.

And fifth - the reponse to sixty will come later. This wall is long enough and I have a couple other things I have to do tonight. I'll try to come back to this tonight but it might be tomorrow.

~tammy

[Cerulean]

2) It's not as easy as you think. In my experience, people either conform to the set of characteristics/playstyle that defines their meta or will awkwardly try to change it in a way that come across as forced or unnatural.

I think it's actually silly easy to change or break meta. The challenge comes in keeping enough sane meta to enable you to prove you're town, and enough meta you can bust at appropriate moments for lulzworthy wins.

...not that I...plot this...ever...

In other news - Ceru is town anyway, meta be damned, so...?

You have a read on Voided? I wouldn't mind getting another vote on Voided.

We have a scum read on voided too, but we're not giving up hope on the sixty wagon yet.

[Thor665]

Actually I haven't used any meta talk (though I claimed my case was meta free) and no one has asked me for the read yet - which I always find funny.
You seem really focused on pushing this one through, and I don't think I could even describe your Cerulean case right now - are you sure you've got one?

[Thor665]

Above is @Jesse

@Ceru - I'm not so sure on Sixty, but with all my experiece with them thus far (one) I may or may not be any good at reading them. Personally I'm thinking they're town here, but it's just beard at the moment.

[JesseSheffield]

Cerulean: There’s a lot to address so I’m going to try to just comment/respond to what I think will be relevant moving forward but if there’s something I skipped over that you want an answer to just ask and I’ll do it.

I’ve played with a lot of assholes so if I get the impression someone is not going to cooperate with me nicely I snap off. Much like I did with Soul initially when I felt Soul was stepping into “territory” of mine. I missed the part where you were reading through and I pretty much thought you were purposely ignoring me, until the first post acknowledging me included the term “newcomer”. Call it pride/arrogance/conceit... I just did not think too favorably of that. Moving on, over it, progressing the game now.

What it seemed like to me, involving Sixty’s case on Piggy, was that you were fishing players’ opinions to gain something to build upon. Whether you were or weren’t, that never really materialized anyway so its kind of a moot point. That’s good to note though that 3/4 scum jumped aboard an early Piggy wagon.

In general I think this is the most I’ve understood about your thought process. I know its not a requirement to kind of spell things out like that right away but personally I appreciate it because it helps me understood you better (which I’ll admit isn’t always in a player’s favor) and it does help me make minor adjustments to my reads. That helped a lot.

Actually I haven't used any meta talk (though I claimed my case was meta free) and no one has asked me for the read yet - which I always find funny.
You seem really focused on pushing this one through, and I don't think I could even describe your Cerulean case right now - are you sure you've got one?

Oh I know you haven’t used meta talk, it doesn’t really seem like you’ve used much talk at all which is why I’m interested to see what you have to say. And making sure its sans meta. That way, you know, I can see you’ve got a mind focused in this game. And I know you couldn’t describe my case on Cerulean because you didn’t even read it.

Are you sure you’ve got a case on Voided? Because right now I only see 2/3 with a real case on the leading wagon and you’re not one of them.

[Thor665]

Oh I know you haven’t used meta talk, it doesn’t really seem like you’ve used much talk at all which is why I’m interested to see what you have to say. And making sure its sans meta. That way, you know, I can see you’ve got a mind focused in this game. And I know you couldn’t describe my case on Cerulean because you didn’t even read it.

So you're saying that if I present a reasoned and logical case I'll prove that my reads are awesome and that Ceru is town?
And, what, you can't give a two sentence summation of the Ceru case? It must be bad then.

Are you sure you’ve got a case on Voided? Because right now I only see 2/3 with a real case on the leading wagon and you’re not one of them.

I think my case on Voided was called 'beard' at some point.
I've done quite well by 'beard' cases in the past, even have won two bets over them - so I'm not sure how that doesn't count, it's got to be as solid as anything in he wiki. If I typed up an article would that make it more sheepable?

[Soul2277]

My Internet keeps dropping making it incredibly difficult to read the thread let alone post and link/quote stuff.

I'll post it tomorrow during the day because this is getting ridiculous.

~ OS

[JesseSheffield]

So you're saying that if I present a reasoned and logical case I'll prove that my reads are awesome and that Ceru is town?
And, what, you can't give a two sentence summation of the Ceru case? It must be bad then.

More like if you present a reasonable, logical case it’ll suggest that you’re pro-town. As is reading other players’ cases if you’re going to demand them.

I think my case on Voided was called 'beard' at some point.
I've done quite well by 'beard' cases in the past, even have won two bets over them - so I'm not sure how that doesn't count, it's got to be as solid as anything in he wiki. If I typed up an article would that make it more sheepable?

I feel like that’s probably awesome and reasonable to someone else, idk... does Empking still play? But a real case that you can quote would be more pro-town.

[Voidedmafia]

I may be persuaded to vote Sixty, but I really don't think Voided is scum, unless he's just that good that he can make his posts feel genuine and keep the exact same tone that they do when he's town sooooo... Voided is town.

...Huh?

And piggy can you be more specific as well? I know voided walls as both alignments so a bit more detail on what in his walls leans town.

~Mehdi

That's what I want to avoid in my meta...

More like if you present a reasonable, logical case it’ll suggest that you’re pro-town. As is reading other players’ cases if you’re going to demand them.

I can sum up his case on me in one word:

"lolcounterwagons"

If he's said anything to the contrary, I haven't seen it, nor has he actually objected to this explanation of his case. "beard" does sound like a shorter alternative, though it's just as infuriating.

Also, yes, Empking still plays.

[callforjudgement]

Justin Timberlake (Regfan + Faraday hydra) replaces Equinox.

Vote Count

• Voidedmafia (3)
  : Thor665 absta101 JesseSheffield
  
• absta101 (3)
  : Justin Timberlake Voidedmafia PiggyGal15
  
• Sixty (2)
  : Cerulean Soul2277
  
• PiggyGal15 (1)
  : N
  
• Soul2277 (1)
  : Sixty
  
• Not voting:
  (
  nobody
  )

Deadline: Sun 25 Nov, 00:05 UTC (

automatic countdown: (expired on 2012-11-25 00:05:00)

)

With 10 alive it is 6 to lynch.

[Justin Timberlake]

Hey everyone, we've both been following along fairly closely but I want to get a mass re-read done in the next hourish. Will probably just pull an all nighter and go through it in some detail - if there's anything you want me to read into in slightly more detail in the re-read let me know now. I already have a bunch of Faradays thoughts but he should be on fairly soon since it's just past lunch time there so I'll probably talk with him first.

[Justin Timberlake]

Carly Rae Jepsen was a better avatar.

[Justin Timberlake]

Meh your read on voided was fine. I didn't like how uptight he felt in Post 88.

I have little experience with equinox but empire left me a message that equinox was his backpocket scum read. She just feels off.

But sixty...read that case.

Actually I'm not waiting...

VOTE: sixty.

This is a righteousness wagon.

Why did you use ellipses here? Also why didn't you capitalise the E and S in Equinox and Sixty?

[Justin Timberlake]

Unvote, Vote Cerulean

for being mean a few pages back. Didn't like that. SCUM.

[Cerulean]

Oh, shush up Faraday and vote Sixty with us.

~Empire.

[Justin Timberlake]

Sorry, you're going to have to deal with Faradays trolling a little longer.

I'm about half way through page 10 and the read through is actually taking quite a bit longer then I anticipated it to.

[Justin Timberlake]

Oh, shush up Faraday and vote Sixty with us.

~Empire.

MAKE ME

[absta101]

I'm okay with the Sixty or Voided waggons going through. Sixty because her "gambit" seems fake.

[Thor665]

More like if you present a reasonable, logical case it’ll suggest that you’re pro-town. As is reading other players’ cases if you’re going to demand them.

I just want you to sum it up succinctly. I know you've pointed out lots of little things that you are calling scummy, but I want the broad strokes, big picture, succinct case.
I really do feel that if you can't say why someone is scum in under 2 sentences than they're probably not scum.
You've been providing examples of evidence to support your case.
I don't think you've actually written out the case.
Think thesis statement.
Cerulean is scum because she has a blue avatar and has lied about the color of Thor's underwear in Post 1284.
Something like that. Simple, yeah?

But a real case that you can quote would be more pro-town.

You were just able to quote my case though...
Okay, here's a more normal tell for you - you see that point where Voided answered your question about Emp?
Yeah, y'know, the one that *proves* he's reading these posts as you defend him from me?
Y'know, the guy who has been voting him for a while while Voided has not even so much as burped in my direction?
That's now my case.
Sheep me?

[Justin Timberlake]

Faraday was meant to be 'back' from whenever he vanished to by now so we can finish talking about reads but it's now 4am and I'm caving and need a few hours sleep at least so here's where I'm at right now, Faraday can just post his own thoughts and I'll talk with him tomorrow at some point.

Town (Strongest to weakest):

Cerulean

- Not understanding peoples doubt on them or semi-scum-reads on them at all really. Both of their play which has been moreso Tammy surprisingly (Seems Empires the bitch) has been extremely transparent this game and both are playing massively towards their town metas and out of the entire site those two heads are probably some of the players I'm more comfortable reading than anyone else. Their 'meta-research' on Piggy and comparison between her play here and elsewhere in Post 64 and further elaborated on in Post 92 and Post 94 matches the research I know Empire does as well as the manner reads are discussed and thought about by him. Tammys interactions with Thor and constant back-and-forthing reads very strongly as her trying to get a read of him and her questioning line re; Sixtys 'case-post' on Piggy is something I actually very much agree with, the case has a lot of elements that come across as pure bullshit, the RVS 'joke section' particularly is something that I'm not understanding Sixty holding onto and maintaining claiming to be alignment determining. Them claiming that Empire getting a town-read on Jesse and finding it genuine and Tammy notso much in Post 227 is something I buy completely and them pre-sharing 'schedules' in Post 304 is something far more likely to come from them as town, Empires much less inclined to care as much as scum - both his completed scum games have had him lurk whenever possible.

Jesse

- I think his 'I've got reads to say but want to hold of a page or two' in Post 155 is actually a massive massive town-tell, scum have little motivation to *post* and not share reads at the time since they'd get called up for having no reads and thereby be pressured to put them up instantly. On the other side I can see town wanting to refrain until they get a reaction or information to strengthen their reads before revealing them. His crack-pot theory about the ego-comment from Equinox about Thor and Cerulean in Post 167 is the sort of theories and thoughts I've come up with and still do come up with as town when my mind wonders but it's not something that happens naturally as scum at all and given that the the time between all these posts was less than an hour I don't think he's 'made it all up' nor do I think he pre-planned the entire angle of questioning from Medhi making all the responses legitimate and genuine. I also think his frustration with Medhi 'blowing' his chance of getting better read sis a town-tell. The vote on Cerulean to get a response in Post 179 is again something far more likely to come from town feeling they're ignored and wanting a response than from scum who wouldn't want the spot light as is his interaction with Cerulean afterwards and his progression to Voided.

N

- I remember finding his very very early posts town but ISOreading them I don't find that to be the case any-more, think his responses to Piggy are actually fairly null there. I do really like him attacking the reasoning for people having a town-read on him in Post 241, don't think he'd have done that as scum especially given his lack of activity, he'd want to keep whatever town-cred he had attained whatever way he got it. I think his Mehdi meta point in Post 282 is also a town-tell, it's brining up meta on an action that

can be

construed as scummy but instead stating it's a town-tell, don't think he'd want to clear a townie like that as scum given that scum need four mslynches to win and I don't think he'd defend a partner like that too given that Medhi was attracting minimal attention.

Absta

- I think his joining of the Equinox wagon only to unvote right after in Post 28 is a relatively big town-tell, especially given his reasoning in Post 48, Post 52 and Post 54, I don't think as scum he'd do something like that which would instantly garner him a massive amount of attention for no motivation whatsoever. His early scum-read on Voided and picking apart of his ISO in Post 147 contains quite a few valid points and reads as him genuinely thinking Voided is mafia. About the only reservation I have with him is that other than his scum-read on Voided and Sixty he hasn't really stated thoughts on any other player.

Thor

- I don't fully trust myself reading him, find his play to be massively similar between game to game, with that said I *am* very much liking his push on Voided and don't think his interactions with Voided look like partners at all so if I'm right and Voided flips mafia then he's town, example of what I'm talking about interaction wise is Post 143, Post 152, 254 and 255. Also really like the way he's treated and responded to Cerulean, feels like he legitimately tried to read them.

Soul

- I'm honestly not sure where to put these guys on the scale. I agree with the sheer majority of what Mehdi has said alongside with most of their reads, pretty much all of them except Piggy and the strength of others and find scum faking town-thought-process to be one of the most difficult tells to fake but at the same time I'm having a tonal issue with them. I probably should and will later look at a Mehdi-scum game and it might put me at ease but there's a severe lack of aggression and a lack of emotion from him. Really wish I could explain this better and I don't think Faradays even read their posts properly so can't really discuss this with him yet. I *should* also be able to get a stronger read on Oversoul given that I've seen him in a lot more games and his Post 303 where he grabs a meta similarity between Piggy and a scum-game which is completely against Mehdis read on her does come across as town but need a lot more.

Null

Piggy

- The call out of "One scum on my wagon" will little further elaboration on who she thinks is town voting her and who is scum other than the early-read on Equinox in Post 46 is slightly scummy but her self-meta in Post 74 comes across as very genuine. The 'little narrator voice in my head' while extremely weird in Post 81 comes across again as genuine, it reads as sort of a "Gut read I can't explain" and the manner of it doesn't feel like scum frantically trying to throw down a vote. I actually disagree with Cerulan about Piggys vote on Jesse in Post 161 being good, the reasoning behind it is very much stretching given that he said he had a lot of reads and was going to out them soon. Also don't like her reasoning behind her town-read on Voided and her vote in Post 295, not understanding either of those. Need to talk with Faraloser about her a bit because I know when I had a town-read on her he disagreed with it then even.

Mafia (Strongest to weakest)

Voidedmafia

- His inital attack on Absta in Post 60 is horrendous, questioning him over the purpose of stating 'well omgus' and his 'why is equinox a better wagon than you' aren't questions that lead to any real alignment indicicative response, they're questions that are blatant filler and instead of looking at motivation behind abstas actions he's construing them as scummy without moving his vote across giving himself future options which is what scum need in nightless. His Post 66 stating Piggy and Absta are both good wagons confirms that too. He soft sets up for Equinox too in Post 116. His posts thenon are just him responding to people back-and-forth over very small points without actually attempting to scumhunt, to top it of though he moves and votes Thor in Post 213 because Thor voted based of gut which is somehow scummier than all of his other two and a bit scum-reads. States later in Post 223 that he still has scum-reads on them which is again leaving future options and the only two town reads in it are Sixty over something I really can't understand or agree with and Jesse which has somewhat of a caveat in it. There's really no scumhunting and motivation hunting involved by him at all, just a lot of noise and back and forths. Also the absolute most important point that makes him scum is one that Faraday pointed out to me and I somehow missed, he has the word mafia in his name.

Sixty

- I don't really understand the purpose of the question in Post 30 but that's super minor. The 'after-the-fact' point and move to Absta in Post 62 and Post 63 doesn't come across as a 'gambit' as they later claim, furthermore not sure what gain would come from a 'gambit' like that. The V/LA point on Piggy in Post 79 is unbelievably weak and shit that it's not even funny, remember Faraday reading it and saying to me "WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS SHIT THE WHOLE POST" ect. The case on Piggy doesn't go any further than her 'not stating who the scum is on her wagon' which as Jesse? or Cerculian? said is nullified by you saying she's incompetent as town. The other points I find all to be weak as well. I'm not seeing the Tierce hunting for motivation and deep nature into peoples play here, I really aren't and I'm used to it in her town play and while I don't want this turning into Kdubs game v 2.0 (Lol same account for us) I really don't get their play. The closest to normal I found was the town-read stated on Cerulean but that was somewhat demolished by her asking for meta on Empire. I see little of their scum-reads other than the Piggy-case they parked on and the Soul votes reasoning I'm not following so if that could be pointed out for me that'd be awesome. Don't think I'm anywhere near as confident that Faraday is about them flipping scum though (?) but again need to talk with him about it when he gets back.

Unvote, Vote: Voided

mafia

Confirmed mafia lynch.

[Cerulean]

Regfan, I'm on my lunch break right now but since you're painfully obviously town let me give you an offer. I'll put up my meta-based case on Tierce/Vi tonight and see if you agree with it or not. Basically, the thrust of my argument is that the way Tierce constructed her case against Piggy in #79 is far more likely to come from her as scum than as town. Same with Vi's #259. If you're still not as confident in them flipping scum, I'll ask Tammy if she's willing to switch along with you and Thor to Voided considering we also have them as a strong scumread.

Tammy and I had the same reaction to Tierce's post that Faraday did which is why we feel really strongly about them flipping scum.

(Your av sucks, get a new one.)

~Empire.