Open 465 - Wot's... Uh the Deal? (Game Over! Town Win!)

[Mantisdreamz]

Ok, on Levi. For him to be playing the newb card is deeply as he is playing it, he would have to be skilled scum and from reviewing his sitewide ISO, he just isn't. I read him as genuine inexperienced town.

the last sentence... that's the whole point though. that you read him that way (if he is scum).

Vote Count

Adam-12 (L-3): Guile, Malakittens
Leviathan93 (L-4): Pirate Mollie
Code-X (L-4): Leviathan93
Pirate Mollie (L-2): ProHawk, Shrimp85, Adam-12
Malakittens (L-4): Mantisdreamz

Not Voting: Code-X

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is Monday, December 17, 2012 at 12:40 PM EST

[Adam-12]

Ok, on Levi. For him to be playing the newb card is deeply as he is playing it, he would have to be skilled scum and from reviewing his sitewide ISO, he just isn't. I read him as genuine inexperienced town.

the last sentence... that's the whole point though. that you read him that way (if he is scum).

Ok, but the idea that he is "playing the newb card" is just not applicable here. A case for newb-scum is possible but I haven't gotten that feel from him unless you mean Blacksmith Gate.

[Mantisdreamz]

I am not getting a good handle on who is scum period which is why I am good with my lynch at least it will provide info for my team.

I still think hawk boy or levi is the best way to go preferably levi

who provided a list of everyone appearing innocent or innocentish. but hey my self worth is not invested in being right all of the time there are better things to base that on.

thinking on all of this mantis your votes and foses look truly terrible.

before this post though, i had pro hawk as possible scum. And then questioned about Levi.

so how do my foses look terrible? granted.. i did have a vote on Mala at the time.
But, i'm also wondering why you said that busing is unlikely?

[Mantisdreamz]

Ok, on Levi. For him to be playing the newb card is deeply as he is playing it, he would have to be skilled scum and from reviewing his sitewide ISO, he just isn't. I read him as genuine inexperienced town.

the last sentence... that's the whole point though. that you read him that way (if he is scum).

Ok, but the idea that he is "playing the newb card" is just not applicable here. A case for newb-scum is possible but I haven't gotten that feel from him unless you mean Blacksmith Gate.

no, i'm not bringing into mind the blacksmith stuff he mentioned. What i have in mind is all the questions... (which, for a new player is perfectly fine).. but i'm talking about some of the questions that just seemed over the top. i'll look back and post some, because there were a few that stuck out to me

[Mantisdreamz]

I just caught up to this post which i said i would respond to earlier

@Mantis: What do you think about my post regarding Mollie? Does it make any sense? I'd rather hear your full opinion in your own words than address any specific concerns/thoughts that I have.

I'm guessing that you mean what you wrote about her here:

Mollie -- Upon my re-examination of Mollie I did come across something I missed earlier but stands out to me now. Across many of her posts she seems preoccupied with being lynched and declaring that she is not scum. These declarations have also been accompanied by AtE which I found odd; such as, "When I flip re-examine this" and "I am looking to be the next lynch, I can see things going that way" and "Let me post these reads before people follow Hawk in lynching me". Her vote for Hawk had no explanation. She also directed the tracker/watcher in post #247. She also tends to describe her behavior as scum to show herself as town (self meta); such as, "I WoT as scum" and others. What I liked about Mollie was her level head, strong demeanor & mafia skills and these traits created a town profile in my mind that sort of hid these other subtle signs of scum-conscious behavior. The easy scum tells are usually the ones that result in a D1 lynch of a townie. I am always in favor of the more subtle tells because they're the ones that tend to catch scum. I think a vote here is in order.

i do think it makes sense. and that it looks bad for her. in the last several posts i've made, (before i saw the post you made on her).. i was saying that she seemed better to me overall. I do have history playing with mollie.. and i have often been tricked by her as scum. But.. there have been a lot of scum games that she has played in which she hung back and made long-ish posts, that made a lot of sense. There have also been games that i've played when she was scum and took an OMGUS route. (she doesn't always take the same route of playing scum)... and I thought i saw some of that in this game earlier. She was my initial scum read, actually along with you.

However, for some reason, her latest posts, past 3-4 pages or so have not bothered me. So even though she did get defensive about her lynch.. i know that she hates being mislynched as town. so that could account for her response. .. to bring some actual facts into it, I liked that she has more of a town read on you. And when I asked her about how sure she was on Shrimp being scum... she did not say "yes!" and bring up a whole case on him.

I don't know if all that helps much.

basically though i wouldn't like to see her lynched today.

Adam - what are your thoughts on pro hawk again? i think you were saying that you thought he was town. but can you say why exactly?

[Adam-12]

Well with Hawk, it starts with agreeing on reads. I noticed the exact same thing he did on Mollie and completely understand his push on her from that perspective. I like how he also attacked Shrimp and came away from that with a Shrimp town slip. Again, I like his very good pressure on Guille. And ultimately, it took some time, but I have come to agree with him on Mollie; I think we have both discovered that her defense seems scattered. Ultimately I think Hawk and I just think the same way and seem to see the same things.

[Adam-12]

Also, I admire minimalist posters that know how to do it right, because I don't >.<

[Majiffy]

The Hunt Is On!

[Adam-12]

WOOT! GO BABY GO!!!!!!!!!

[Majiffy]

WOOT! GO BABY GO!!!!!!!!!

[Adam-12]

lol the Puma!

[Majiffy]

Sleep time. I'll get your replacement in on Saturday if someone PMs me to replace in. Otherwise I'll just uhhh see ya all then.

[Adam-12]

Great work btw thank you.

[Shrimp85]

Great, fricken great. I typed out this post with a whole lot of stuff in it, and I tried to copy it, but I pressed ctrl V ! UGH!
So, long story short, I don't like Mollie and Mantis in these posts at all, and Adam-12 just got town points --->post 394

I will explain more tomorrow. I got to go to work.

[guille2015]

Great, fricken great. I typed out this post with a whole lot of stuff in it, and I tried to copy it, but I pressed ctrl V ! UGH!
So, long story short, I don't like Mollie and Mantis in these posts at all, and Adam-12 just got town points --->post 394

I will explain more tomorrow. I got to go to work.

ctrl+z works wonders.

[pirate mollie]

I am not getting a good handle on who is scum period which is why I am good with my lynch at least it will provide info for my team.

I still think hawk boy or levi is the best way to go preferably levi

who provided a list of everyone appearing innocent or innocentish. but hey my self worth is not invested in being right all of the time there are better things to base that on.

thinking on all of this mantis your votes and foses look truly terrible.

before this post though, i had pro hawk as possible scum. And then questioned about Levi.

so how do my foses look terrible? granted.. i did have a vote on Mala at the time.
But, i'm also wondering why you said that busing is unlikely?

it is your vote on malacat. also I said that the scenario was unlikely not that bussing was unlikely. sorry I got weird on you I guess it is cos I am surprised that you are trusting me at this point after I just flipped scum but then the other scum team must have thought I was town too or they would not have killed me. you are dead in that game btw.

if malacat can do what she says she can do then give her til d3.

I keep coming back to hawk boy cos of how sticky his vote is and he is not even trying to look anywhere else this is what I did in the audio game it gave me leeway to prime you and maestro for an endgame scenario as in I left you 2 alone and made so much noise with thor that it allowed the both of you to lay on the periphereal so that there was no clearcut path that pointed to either of you when I was lynched. I can't wrap my head around a town motivation for a vote to be that sticky and would like for pressure to be placed on him to draw out his other reads so that he can be held accountable later in the game.

I don't like how adam is treating me as town but is okay with my lynch or his suck up posts to hawk boy but I am still going with that he is town. adam, when I flip I would like a short 5 paragraph essay on why you suck at mafia and why preference of style over substance is bad. throw something in there about retarded town herd mentality and I might actually think you are not retarded. hint, look up confirmation bias. this is all predicated on that you are town of course and do it in post game plz.

shrimp guy looks opportunistic as fuck but again retarded town herd mentality/confirmation bias and all. adam and shrimp look like they might be classic forum mafia xenophobes as in they don't know how to assimilate different playstyles or lateral thinking unless you pretty it up for them. I had to deal with a ton of it in my first game on this site in the titanium game where I was lynched d1 as town. adam if you are town and into the meta thing you should go read that game I had scum in my sights in my very first post got talked out of it but then had him back cos like you, he treated me as town but lynched me anyways. there was another player who did this too but he said if there was more time he would have kept me in the game. he ended up facing a ton of fire throughout the game but I understood where he was coming from since he had just subbed in. I am not sure how adam fits into this train of thought but I think shrimp guy might just be dumb but who knows.

so if I step away from a d1 town pile on and look at who is skating on the edges it puts hawk boy, malacat, guille and levi in the forefront. not touching malacat til d3 and hawk boy is getting his hands somewhat dirty so if I work from a hawk boy might actually be town axis that leaves guille and levi. guille got super cranky and looks like he is playing it safe cos why has he not followed his "gut bad pizza read" read and just vote me already cos there is the possibility of knowing how I will flip that's why. that is what I mean by playing it safe.

wow what a nice brain dump.

[Majiffy]

I coulda sworn there was another page here...

Anyway, no replacement yet. See you all tomorrow.

[borkjerfkin]

Howdy. I've been loosely following this game. I'll catch up as soon as I can.

[Majiffy]

^ Yeah what he said.

[Adam-12]

@Mollie: So far I have not once agreed that I have treated you as town (since my vote for you). Have I been evaluating your defense? Yes. Treating you as town? No.

[Adam-12]

^ Yeah what he said.

"I'll have that replacement in a Majiffy!"

[Majiffy]

That was bad and you should feel bad.

[Adam-12]

"WHO'S THE MOD WE LOVE TO LAUD!?"

What I do have is a very special set of moderating powers. Powers that make me a nightmare to posters like you. If you stop making bad puns, that'll be the end of it; but if you don't: I will look for you, I WILL find you, and I will modkill you.

[pirate mollie]

@Mollie: So far I have not once agreed that I have treated you as town (since my vote for you). Have I been evaluating your defense? Yes. Treating you as town? No.

uhm yeah.

Ok, I think I have misunderstood the term "groom" and I suspect it comes from another site. I thought it meant setting someone up for later lynch but I think what it really means is "buddying"??

why are you asking me this if you are town and think that I am scum it seems like you are wavering on your read cos who the fuck cares what terminology scum use.

thinking on all of this mantis your votes and foses look truly terrible.

I'm finding her to be quite thorough and genuinely active, is this wrong?

why are you asking me for my read on mantis if you think I am scum. you shouldn't be trusting my reads on anybody if you think I am scum you dummy.

my flip will put you in the awkward position of having to defend mantis against your town reads. I will flip town and I am pretty sure mantis is town so good luck with that. go ahead and start that essay.

also I will accept your apology only if you are town and have learned something from this.

What does "set up for a endgame or midgame nk flip" mean?

again why are you asking your main suspect for scum about terminology usage or game strategy? you look like a cat who is playing with its food like seriously you are not treating me as scum here.

thinking on all of this mantis your votes and foses look truly terrible.

I'm finding her to be quite thorough and genuinely active, is this wrong?

well one can be thorough and active and that have nothing to do with one's alignment. her reactions look very genuine I disagree with her foses and votes. her fos on levi looks good to me though cos it did look like he kind of knew how

also why are you talking to me like I am town aren't I the evil scum lord or something like that.

I don't think your reads are unimportant.

they should be if you are convinced I am scum before you have a flip.

@Mantis: What do you think about my post regarding Mollie? Does it make any sense? I'd rather hear your full opinion in your own words than address any specific concerns/thoughts that I have.

wtf is this shit I don't even. you are either trying to garner support if you are scum for what you think is an easy lynch or you are town trying to gain clarity on a waffely read. since you are saying that you are convinced that I am scum well......

I would like to note that I particularly do not like this quote:

but addressing the subtle observation factor...just coming off of 3 games where I was scum. the audio one on this site, TO and ratskep.

the eau de scum perfume has not worn off I suppose

This is a very clever statement that sounds good on the surface but really boils down to saying, "I know I looked scummy but I just played 3 games as scum in a row and so its not my fault" but at the same time she demonstrates deep knowledge of scum game play (especially evidenced by her most recent posts). I find this to be manipulative and a serious case of cog-dis; which is she, an expert player or one that is swayed by forces beyond her control?

My opinion at this point is that she is trying to weasel her way out of suspicion in any way that she can and the cog-dis here is pretty good evidence of that.

manipulative eh? where is the cog-dis btw?

swayed by forces beyond my control is a good point I voted majiffy in the last game cos my old mentor got on line and and was all like are you scum and I said no and he was "change your vote" and I was like okay cos we did not have a don flip there was 1 scum left and majiffy got cute. my mentor was trolling me he had not even logged in to see that a game was in play he just knows me and knows I love to play mafia. fuck you, luis.

but let's get back to the cog-dis that you are trying to red-flag shall we?

I would like to note that I particularly do not like this quote:

but addressing the subtle observation factor...just coming off of 3 games where I was scum. the audio one on this site, TO and ratskep.

the eau de scum perfume has not worn off I suppose

This is a very clever statement that sounds good on the surface but really boils down to saying, "I know I looked scummy but I just played 3 games as scum in a row and so its not my fault" but at the same time she demonstrates deep knowledge of scum game play (especially evidenced by her most recent posts). I find this to be manipulative and a serious case of cog-dis; which is she, an expert player or one that is swayed by forces beyond her control?

My opinion at this point is that she is trying to weasel her way out of suspicion in any way that she can and the cog-dis here is pretty good evidence of that.

it all falls apart when you have to marry the idea that I am okay with getting lynched. like

really

I am okay with getting lynched.

speaking of cognitive-dissonance you have been treating me like town and trying to milk me for inside scum play but keeping your vote on me. lol

^Adam, maybe you should remove your vote from mollie, if you are town.

Because she is saying she wants to be lynched? Frankly, in evaluating her defense overall, I don't get a solid townie feel from it. I think she is a master manipulator and I am definitely feeling that but I don't like the cog-dis at all.

plz clarify the cog-dis that you are banging on about tia.

I doubt you will get a townie feel from me cos I do not think like you which is why I am considering the possibility that you are town along with mantis's endorsement. it is normal to gravitate to people who think like you in a game hence why I always say town moves in herds (sometimes led by scum). I am coming from a place that you are generally xenophobic but then you seem to be giving levi a pass. I am good with my lynch cos it will leave a trail and mantis is no dummy and neither is malacat scum will not be able to take them both out. also if hawk boy is town it will give him food for re-evaluation.

And the anti-town statements aren't in her favor either.

what anti-town statements can you plz clarify here.

[Adam-12]

Ok, I think I have misunderstood the term "groom" and I suspect it comes from another site. I thought it meant setting someone up for later lynch but I think what it really means is "buddying"??

why are you asking me this if you are town and think that I am scum it seems like you are wavering on your read cos who the fuck cares what terminology scum use.

So clarifying terms that YOU use in explaining your reads means I am treating you as town?

thinking on all of this mantis your votes and foses look truly terrible.

I'm finding her to be quite thorough and genuinely active, is this wrong?

why are you asking me for my read on mantis if you think I am scum. you shouldn't be trusting my reads on anybody if you think I am scum you dummy.

Asking you to flesh out your read on another player so I can analyze it means I am treating you as town? No. I already have Mantis as strong town. But even without that, defending a town read is not bad.

What does "set up for a endgame or midgame nk flip" mean?

again why are you asking your main suspect for scum about terminology usage or game strategy? you look like a cat who is playing with its food like seriously you are not treating me as scum here.

Querying you here revealed quite a bit about your level of experience and brought me to dig deeper to analyze your defense.

thinking on all of this mantis your votes and foses look truly terrible.

I'm finding her to be quite thorough and genuinely active, is this wrong?

well one can be thorough and active and that have nothing to do with one's alignment. her reactions look very genuine I disagree with her foses and votes. her fos on levi looks good to me though cos it did look like he kind of knew how

also why are you talking to me like I am town aren't I the evil scum lord or something like that.

I don't think your reads are unimportant.

they should be if you are convinced I am scum before you have a flip.

This has got to be disingenuous; surely you know that scum reads are important too right? Of course, analyzing your defense is necessary -- I am not a cop with a guilty on you.

@Mantis: What do you think about my post regarding Mollie? Does it make any sense? I'd rather hear your full opinion in your own words than address any specific concerns/thoughts that I have.

wtf is this shit I don't even. you are either trying to garner support if you are scum for what you think is an easy lynch or you are town trying to gain clarity on a waffely read. since you are saying that you are convinced that I am scum well......

I said earlier that I have felt you are a master manipulator and your responses brought me to doubt my initial reads. I know that you and Mantis have played extensively together and I wanted to see if anything I said could be discounted by meta or if I was totally off base in my perceptions. She didn't point anything out so...

plz clarify the cog-dis that you are banging on about tia.

I explained it in my original post where I underlined it. Could you please quote that post and ask specifically about it?