Mini 1401 - Game over!

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VOTE: absta101

for voting someone for voting for a shit reason in RVS.

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Just because you call it RVS, doesn't mean that's what it is.

What do you mean by this?

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Absta, have anything to say about either the wagon on you or the KthxBye wagon?

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And Kthxbye makes his fourth vote in two pages. Is that normal for you, Kthxbye? It looks like this is your first game back after your absence, but I don't see evidence of that in your old games. I'm also pretty sure that I know the reason for SiN's vote since he implies it in that post.

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So Huntress, you think that absta voted a scumbuddy in RVS and then got off the wagon to avoid an early kthxbye lynch?

In your scenario
absta random votes a scum buddy. (post 5)
Kthxbye jumps off the first 'wagon' (with 3 votes) to vote for the person voting his scum buddy [me] (post 15)
Kthxbye becomes the next wagon (4 votes by post 27)
absta unvotes, putting himself and kthxbye both at 3 votes.

I find it pretty had to believe scum is worried about getting lynched right now, but I could buy that they would be trying to get out from under the spot light without being too obvious about it. Both players seem scummy to me right now, but kthxbye's hyperactivity - the large number of votes + "hey guys, I'm scumhunting!" - is scummier.

UNVOTE: absta101
VOTE: Kthxbye

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Hyperactivity is certainly can be a playstyle, which is why I looked over kthxbye's old games and asked him about it. The post that got him attacked for being overeager does seem scummy:

I have to say this is the most boring start to any game I've ever played in. How are we to hunt for scum when nobody posts...?

I think scum-kthxbye voted SiN because he saw something to attack that he thought might draw attention away from him.

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Vote: Slandar

His voting pattern is suspicious an he seems to be one of the scum.

Yes, that horrible voting pattern of making an initial vote for reasons you tell other people. Very scummy.

WTF?

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Conman, are you brand new to this site?

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While Conman's posting so far has been pretty poor, I find nothing inherently scummy with it. I don't like the recent votes on him for VI play

It's not VI play, it's noob scum play. 3 votes in 3 posts - all on people who already have votes, none with good reasons.

UNVOTE: Kthxbye
VOTE: TheConman17

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Ace, I'm glad you liked my post about Kthxbye. How about sheeping me and voting for the obvious noob scum?

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To everyone voting Conman: What is the defining characteristic that makes Conman more likely to be scum than Town right now?

3 votes in 3 posts - all on people who already have votes, none with good reasons.

Add to that the fact that he's ignoring what other people are saying to that, and it's really scummy.

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for my my first game on this forum do you honestly think he would put me as scum

Role assignments are random. A brand new player is as likely to have any role as anyone else.

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Screw this I am going back to playing on ikariam

Vote: TheConman17

Er actually

UNVOTE

VOTE: qwints

Screw you guys I'm going home! followed by another OMGUS vote for no actual reason. Conman's clearly doesn't actually want to play. Please replace out. I think he's flailing scum, but this sort of complete flame out is hard to read.

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okay. Seriously. I don't know if I want to get rid of conman, or if I want him to be replaced. If he's just sore town then it's better to let him be replaced. But on the other hand.... if he's flailing scum it's better to lynch him (AHHHH BLINDING FLASH OF OBVIOUS) But I don't really see why he'd play like this if he was scum.... What do y'all think?

and you know what? Screw it

UNVOTE:

VOTE: conman

And here we have scum desperately trying to lynch the VI before he replaces out.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Nobody Special

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Whoops, meant to vote ace.

UNVOTE: Nobody Special

VOTE: theaceofspades

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Bullshit. You want a fast mislynch of a village idiot because you're scum. You end day 1 early (good for scum) and you prevent a stronger town player joining the game (good for scum).

On top of that, you're setting yourself to not take responsibility for the mislynch by equivocating about whether he's really scummy or not then voting for him because "screw it." Your vote is particularly suspicious because I think either:
1) You thought your were hammering; or
2) You thought Conman would self-hammer at the first opportunity.

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My vote was a pure mistake, probably caused by glancing at NS's post as I was voting.

No lynch is rarely a good option outside of a Mylo situation.

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That's correct. When I see what looks like to be opportunistic scum pushing for a lynch of a player doing very poorly, that changes my evaluation of the bad player. Read ace's posts again and tell me there's a good reason for his "screw it" line.

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Conman, do you have difficulty with writing English?

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I think there's very little chance that making people think you're at L-1 when you're actually at L-2 would result in an accidental hammer.

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I keep flipping between thinking conman is obviously scum and conman is an unreadable VI. I'm starting to sympathize with the argument that we have to lynch him Day 1 regardless, but I'd like to hear more from the people who have a town read on him - especially Singer

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We seem unable to put pressure on anyone besides Conman today, and it doesn't look like he's going to make any posts that actually contribute to the game. I'm quite confident that he's a player who posts with little thought but who seems to do so in noob-scum ways. Since I agree that we pretty much have to lynch him today and then reevaluate what's happened so far, I'm going to

UNVOTE: theaceofspades
VOTE: TheConman17

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I read that as saying he would be gone yesterday.

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Conman almost has to be town with the difficulty inherent in getting him lynched. Still, he has to go.

Wait, what?

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Nobody Special, why are you saying the fact that the difficulty of lynching someone makes them more likely to be town? It seems like it would be the other way around to me.

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Sorry for your loss.

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I approve of this exploring other avenues while we await Conman's return, but does anyone actually oppose a conman lynch?

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Anything else to say Conman? Anything at all?

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What's something that you're not "just going to stay away for that?" Any opinions on other players being more likely to be town or scum? Any responses to the other attacks on you? Are you going to play or not?

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I'm willing to bet right now the scum team is conman, mala and absta based solely on that list. I'll reread to evaluate that.

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Comman, the meta on this site is strongly against not lynching since it has the chance of giving mafia an extra kill.

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Conman's survival at this stage is proof positive he's scum. I was thrown by a couple of the votes against him, but I'm now firmly back to believing he's scum.

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Sorry, I missed it.

@Qwints:

Now knowing that Conman left two people out of his original read list and has now given a read on them both.. Do you still think the three people you mentioned are a likely team? If so, why?

Yes. I don't think scum-Conman forgets his teammates when listing his reads.

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I'm willing to bet right now the scum team is conman, mala and absta based solely on that list. I'll reread to evaluate that.

I actually can't find anything that really substantiates my initial impulse.

Kthx is looking good for keeping the pressure on conman - if conman is scum, kthx is likely town.

I like slandaar's side of the slandaar-dx3 argument.

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Well.

Well, well, well.

Vote: TheConMan

That explains nothing

The first post that comes close to being useful from Conman. A Christmas miracle!

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Nope;

D3X: Town should use their vote to push a wagon
Then D3X asks:
Why were you voting him for so long?

See how the first point answers the question; Its clear scum cognitive dissonance

Amazingly; Reasons can be found dotted through my ISO.

Seems like slandaar found a real, scummy inconsistency here.

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Are we seriously considering lynching a player who's making actual cases and, you know, not being super obvious scum over a guy who refuses to engage and has about 6 unexplained opportunistic votes?

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HF, Slandaar was disagreeing with me about the implications of Conman's list of reads. He wasn't stating broad conclusions.

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Yeah, that's the post I'm describing: see "If I had to guess based on Comans list".

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Mala, you're reaction to two dueling wagons as deadline approaches is to vote me for based on my being able to read posts in context? Take a stand on the question that actually matters right now: is slandaar or conman scummier? You've interacted with both, but you haven't really said which one we should lynch.

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I'm playing in a town mindset because I'm pushing for a good lynch (Con) over a bad lynch (Slandaar) rather than sitting back and avoiding taking a stand. Staying active while avoiding talking about major wagons is a classic scum tactic. If you really thought Slandaar was scum while Con wasn't, your play would be entirely different that it is right here - I don't see any evidence of you actually trying to prevent a Con lynch. Why are you just now saying you don't think Con is scum?

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I do have a hard time reading hydras in general which is why I don't yet have a well established read on him. I'm basically watching SiN because of his defense of Con.

I'm wondering why Con left out SiN from a post list. If someone went to give reads and left two people out.. You wouldn't want to question it and get answers as to why? The SK answer satisifed me, but the SiN did not.

I'm not building a soft case against anyone. I have questions and I'd like answers. Why do you have a problem with that?

It's not only Con that I'm questioning. I do want answers from Q also now that new facts came out of Con's posts.

I'm honestly surprised that no one else caught that he left two players out of a read, but he labeled two players who have been posting as "undecided".

Did both parties flip scum? No.
The person who was being defended was town.
The person who was constantly trying to defend the defender was scum.

ISO Om.

Since I'm off my phone I can't find the second game offhand.

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@Con:

Just letting you know you are now giving me a bad vibe. First off you are not explaining any of your reads. You are starting to agree with everyone.

He's actually making cases and scumhunting whereas conman is just voting opportunistically. Conman hasn't seen a wagon he doesn't like (including his own).

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Nope. You scum?

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That was helpful. Now, vote conman please.

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Sup jerks.

Sup. Vote for Conman.

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Merry xmas. V/LA til tomorrow.

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I'm convinced we'll find scum by analyzing the initial reactions to Conman's poor play. Here are player's first post after Conman's third post/vote. Note that NS, myself and Kthxbye had just pressured him for his idiotic second vote.

Spoiler: Initial Reactions

Well kthxbye you seem rather quick to try and take votes of yourself and try to blame other people but I guess I haven't been reading much because I have been at a lacrosse tournament and am really just spamming but you do seem to have a past history with this forum and with the points mentioned above...

UNVOTE

VOTE: kthxbye

Conman, are you brand new to this site?

[already voting Conman]Conman: please, by all means explain why you completely ignored the multiple posts about your comments on Slandaar and his "voting pattern" and also, what history with this forum do you refer to exactly? Last thing, if you could point out the specific "points mentioned above" that really led you to your vote on me, that would be great. Thanks in advance scum!

Okay, from the posting history this is Conman's first game on this forum unless he's used another account before - and I am definitely getting a huge newbie vibe from him.

That said, his last vote reads like a pretty scummy OMGUS vote, so he gets my vote for that. Truth to tell though, I often find it harder to read newbies than more seasoned players as they can be pretty erratic and don't confirm with norms of Mafia behavior - but a scumtell is a scumtell.
...
VOTE: TheConman17

VOTE: Conman for the irrational rationale around both his Slandaar AND Kthxbye votes.

VOTE: Conman

Yeah.

While Conman's posting so far has been pretty poor, I find nothing inherently scummy with it. I don't like the recent votes on him for VI play;

While Conman's posting so far has been pretty poor, I find nothing inherently scummy with it. I don't like the recent votes on him for VI play

It's not VI play, it's noob scum play. 3 votes in 3 posts - all on people who already have votes, none with good reasons.

UNVOTE: Kthxbye
VOTE: TheConman17

theaceofspades post 81 ignores the discussion.

Singer is Nachomamma post 87 ignores the discussion.

absta post 88 ignores the discussion.

unvote

Vote: Conman

Kill it with fire.

CONMAN IS TOWN GET THE FUCK OFF
GET THE FUCK OFF NOW

Conman, just replace out. You aren't helping by lynching yourself.

okay. Seriously. I don't know if I want to get rid of conman, or if I want him to be replaced. If he's just sore town then it's better to let him be replaced. But on the other hand.... if he's flailing scum it's better to lynch him (AHHHH BLINDING FLASH OF OBVIOUS) But I don't really see why he'd play like this if he was scum.... What do y'all think?

@Slandaar: Why huntress? I've seen you play and you don't seem to tend to the "monkies out of my ass" style of play so i'd like to hear your reasoning.

and you know what? Screw it

UNVOTE:

VOTE: conman

Meph [D3x] is the only one to speak out in the initial surge of votes.

Singer is the only one to proclaim a strong town read.

These two also stayed on the Slandaar wagon to the very end. I need to do some further reading, but at least one of those two is scum.

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Because I don't see scum not trying to defend a scum PR at all.

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Dun's vote put both wagons at L-1, right? Kthx switched to hammer while slandaar left his vote on D3X, I think.

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Because I don't see scum not trying to defend a scum PR at all.

A one-shot bulletproof goon in Conman's slot warrants strong defending? You don't think it's possible that scum soft-defended him?

Isn't soft defense a form of defense? My point is I expect to find scum in the set of people seeking to avoid a Conman lynch.

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But the point is Dun could have lurked his way to deadline. Do you really think he went out of his way to get a Conman lynch when saying nothing probably results in NS hammering slandaar?

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I find the fact that d3x is pushing a Slandaar/conman/dun team incredibly disingenuous given that he didn't seem to think conman was obvscum on day 1. In his world, despite the fact that townies were several townies, including d3x himself, were proclaiming conman as town, scum felt that conman was the obvscum.

VOTE: d3x

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d3x, my point was you're advocating an internally inconsistent scenario.

If

you were town and right about the scum team (Dun, Slandaar, Conman) , you'd have to believe that, although you and several other townies were defending Conman, scum still thought they had to give up on conman. In addition, you'd have to believe that no wagon on town ever got above 3 votes despite the fact that there was a lot of town driven pressure on other players, e.g. aceofspades, havingfitz and malakittens.

Since those things don't make sense, and I believe that a town player would have thought through their scenario more and realized that, I conclude you're scum.

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Why do I get the feeling that qwints is scummy in every game he plays?
VOTE: qwints

Because you're bad at reading me?

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@Mala, that point was based solely on the list conman gave and, if you read my iso, you'd see that I actually dismissed that possibility later on Day 1.

I'm willing to bet right now the scum team is conman, mala and absta based solely on that list. I'll reread to evaluate that.

I actually can't find anything that really substantiates my initial impulse.

Sure, my point was that your "scum" didn't get on several viable counter-wagons to conman after conman became the main target. Looking at it more closely, however, you do seem to have a point. Absta did jump on theaceofspades/malakitten's wagon with an OMGUS vote after I got off that wagon. Considering that absta was absent for the later half of day 2, it might be more plausible than I thought. And slandaar's lack of a counter-vote on conman at the end of day 1 is also pretty scummy. Maybe you're right about the set-up after all, and dun's last second switch doesn't clear him.

Re-reading day 1 has convinced me that your case is at least plausible. And the absta posts begging conman to get out do look pretty bad.

UNVOTE: d3x
VOTE: dunhamganger

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V/LA til Jan 8th

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I actually find mala's claim fairly hard to believe - why would a mason draw attention to herself by arguing against a mason claim? But, in the absence of a counterclaim she's conf-town. The mason should claim today because the Huntress kill looks like a scum-hunting kill. That doesn't necessarily mean vig after a D1 scum lynch, but why risk losing a potentially conf-town at this point? In addition, the mason claim almost has to come before Lylo.

SK looks very town from that exchange. I'm going to keep my vote where it is because I really don't like the fact that rofl pushes a mala wagon when he agreed with the that the mason shouldn't claim today.

SiN looks really bad for going from really clear posts yesterday to fence-sitting posts today. I think a SiN-rofl team is quite likely.

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what? So you see that the mason claimed then go on to talk about how you think the mason should claim...? I'm honestly confused here.

My point was that mala's behavior was weird, and I don't blame anyone who didn't see her behavior as a soft claim.

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I've made my point. I buy that Dun's hammer may have been a forced move from scum rather than a free choice from town. The interaction between absta and conman is the smoking gun. Sucks that you replaced into a slot with that kind of history, but there it is.

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That was truly, truly awful. I handled conman's play quite poorly. I felt like the self-vote followed by voting me was scum self-claiming then claiming his partner.
http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/fSiJjqNCZL75d

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http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=23215