Micro 121: SS9 (Game over!)

[Wisdom]

Lincolm, can I hammer you?

[Wisdom]

Because I don't want to die

[Wisdom]

Blueberry, wtf made you believe I don't know what a supersaint is?

[Wisdom]

Because it seemed like you didn't know that you will die if you hammer.

Because I don't want to die

[Wisdom]

Nope, I knew I'd die in case he's a supersaint, that's why I said it.

[Wisdom]

Lincolm, Wicked's analysis is clearly a joke - but it's a smart move because it draws reactions.

I believe the ones who were fast to call it a joke are the most likely ones to be scum though - town could have let it go to see the reactions. On this note, Blueberry and kmd are the ones who instantly treated it as a joke, with kmd not only calling it a joke, but including it in reasons in order to vote you (Lincolm).

Other things about kmd:
-The inclusion of the last paragraph in 13 looks pre-prepared, something that he had thought of posting in his first serious post.
-kmd was the first one to start the "Why (name)?" chain - Why did you need to ask for explaining regarding a RVS vote?

So,
VOTE: kmd

[Wisdom]

I'm not sure. I think Lincolm was going for reactions too with all this - but he could also be bluffing scum.

[Wisdom]

The newbie feel might be coming from the language too - english is not his first. But he's certainly not a newbie.

[Wisdom]

Mine neither.

[Wisdom]

I believe the ones who were fast to call it a joke are the most likely ones to be scum though

Why?

I said why. I believe town would let it go to see the reactions. Scum will read it and say "ok, that's a joke reasoning, we're not in danger yet" and thus are likely to call it a joke while refering to it.

[Wisdom]

Cheery, english please.

I agree with your pedit though, scummy behavior to instantly ruin your test.

[Wisdom]

A fake-hammer most likely comes from town - he wanted to get reactions from you and possibly others. You ruined it instantly and we got absolutely no reactions = You didn't act with a town mindset.

[Wisdom]

Good thing you unvoted, now I can vote.

VOTE: Lincolm

Elaborate on what is wrong with my reaction, Cheery.

[Wisdom]

Because I won't hammer on page3, and especially in this setup.

[Wisdom]

Then, why did you find Lincolm scummy for pointing it out?

[Wisdom]

Also, I take it you just don't agree with me that it was a protown tool. How does that make me scum?

[Wisdom]

Because it was a poorly thought out test and I wanted him to do something alone the lines of "haha you're dead now"; the reaction just made me not want to remove the vote, not neccessary have him be scum. (Although I didn't actually expect that given )

Fair enough.

Because as I read it, you only added it after my p-edit.

Well I didn't get to post before you posted, did I?

[Wisdom]

Oh yes, for town, please remember that scum have daytalk (see role PM). They can plan something. Thanks.

I missed this post btw. Why did you feel like mentioning this at that time?

[Wisdom]

That was in the same post. My comment on your pedit was not a pedit.

[Wisdom]

The "english please" remark was about the post that you tried to correct your first fail. Specifically, about

Somebody needs to do something, the reverse I just posted just reads wrong.

(though I guess it's better? than the something -- something I had, but maybe not)

p-edit, congrats in reacting in a way which makes me want to leave my vote there.

which was just above your pedit.

[Wisdom]

Yeah, my point is, my "english please" remark and my comment about your pedit came after your post. I didn't get to post after Lincolm's reaction and before yours.

[Wisdom]

I find it more likely that you're scum and mentioned the daytalk for cred.

[Wisdom]

Umm okay. But that's not enough to make me scum. I'll wait for more reasons from you.

[Wisdom]

Btw

@Mod

, it would probably be a good idea to send DayStart pms to those that haven't posted yet.

[Wisdom]

He said that disliked the action of agreeing (found it scummy), not that he disliked me.

[Wisdom]

ebwop: that he* - we have butchered the language in this game.

[Wisdom]

I don't want him to chase them, I'm just not sure they know the game started since there were no "DayStart" pms.

[Wisdom]

Wisdom, on wicked's jokecase, I did the same thing you did. I saw obvjoke and voted for a reaction to it. Why is that scummy for me but not for you?

What? Where did I vote for a reaction? I'm pretty sure my votes have been a) you for reasons I said and b) Lincolm because I believe he's scum.

I asked why because I came into the thread and the only post was an unreasoned vote. I was curious why

So this is your first time seeing RVS? I would believe that if it came from a newbie, maybe. Or not.


Also, you want me to hammer Lincolm yet you unvote Lincolm and vote me? Seems legit. Regardless, I'm not hammering anyone this early, just so you know.

[Wisdom]

If you've seen RVS what was so strange with one unexplained vote in the first post...?

You voted Lincolm for his reaction; I voted you for your reaction, your insistence to call that post a "joke", your pre-prepared plan, and everything else I've said. Different things, different levels of scumminess.

[Wisdom]

So Lincolm, who is scum? I see signs of suspecting kmd in your post but you didn't vote him.

@Malakittens, I've played with Lincolm before here, as well as in marathons, but tbh I knew about the language barrier before that because I read games.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: kmd

Reasons and other stuff in the next post

[Wisdom]

Wisdom, I didn't think it was strange at all.

Are you kidding me?

I asked why because I came into the thread and the only post was an unreasoned vote.

I was curious why

and figured i'd be more likely to get an answer if I included a vote.

Yes, you found it strange. You were curious why there was one unexplained vote

in RVS

. You asked for reasoning regarding a RVS vote. And now you're lying about it.

Regarding his "plan" - I had already read about it before, so it's not like the plan was something kmd came up with. Wouldn't it be nice for scum to give this plan to the town in order to gain cred? This is what I instantly thought when I saw him mentioning it in his first serious post. The way he's trying to use it ("I want Wisdom to hammer Lincolm" - aka I want town to hammer town, because yes, I find Lincolm town now), further confirms to me that it comes from scum. Look at how wicked adds to it in 103 - that's a townie with genuine motivations to use the plan - kmd wasn't.

[Wisdom]

Wisdom, I have a hard time believing that you believe in the first paragraph of this quote, considering Kmd's vote for Lincolm was in part due to Lincolm's reaction to my joke. Also, can you elaborate on the bolded point, please?

I don't know why you have a hard time. I explained how I think. Yes, it was probably obvious that your case was a joke, yes, most people got it, but there were also people who didn't and others who had not posted yet. What is the town motivation in killing it and discredit it as a joke, making sure nobody will be likely to give reactions to it? Yes, we had Lincolm's reaction but we could possibly gain much more. Your original motivation from posting the case was reactions anyway - town that understood that it was a joke should have also understood your motivation and let it go to allow it to elicit reactions. Blueberry and especially kmd instantly killed it, and referred to it as a joke. Scum will refer to it as a joke, because they know they're not in danger from this case.

Post 52- Wisdom, why do you find Lincolm suspicious? Also, you've switched your vote from Kmd (the person who started the bandwagon on Lincolm) to Lincolm. Do you think they are both mafia?

Lincolm is town, kmd is scum. My vote and questions to Lincolm were pressure. I wanted to keep him at L-1 because I felt it was an interesting state for reactions. Scum would not be able to hammer him, town might try tricks like CDog's fake hammer - and generally there were things we could gain.

Wisdom looks even more suspicious. His vote for Kmd4390 seemed poorly justified and his vote for Lincolm looks opportunistic. Also, I find it strange that he has suspicion of both Kmd4390 and Lincolm given their interactions.

I have covered all of this, so let me know if it changes anything.

[Wisdom]

My current reads:

Lincolm is town. Not only his play looks really different than his scumplay, the whole thing with being at L-1, being cool and everything clearly shows he's going for helpful reactions. His last post further convinces me - he knows scum will vote early to avoid hammering, so he doesn't want to vote yet - he offers to hammer if one of his two scumspects reach L-1. Is this just words? I don't think so, it seems genuine. The cases people have made on him are bullshit, and the only thing I agreed with for a while was his stopping of CDog's fakehammer test - but on second thought that's null.

Wicked is town. The jokecase was a really smart first move to elicit reactions. His later serious posts are good and his reads seem genuine. I like how he added to the plan and I'm now willing to follow it - whereas from kmd it just seemed a manipulative control-the-lynches attempt coming from scum.

CDog is probably town. Basing it on his fakehammer test and discrediting it soon after - but it's not completely unlikely that he would do that as scum. I'm also curious what he will do with his vote on me now - he accepted that the reasoning is not enough, so is he willing to let me get lynched?

Huntress and Malakittens are null, I'll need more from them.

Blueberry is somewhat different than his last scumgame but at the same time I'm getting slight scumvibes. Maybe from the fact that he also discredited wicked's jokecase right away. He has not posted much content, so I'll leave him at null for now.

theslimer3 is probably scum. His play reminds me of his scumgame. His constant "omg this setup is so scumsided" is more likely to come from scum-slimer than town-slimer; town-slimer is usually more innocent, less setup-evaluating, more scumhunting. Not much content from him so far either, so I'll give him a chance to impress me.

kmd is scum - reasons have been said but if you want a recap: Instant discrediting of wicked's jokecase which does not allow it to fulfill its purpose (to elicit reactions), questioning an RVS vote and lying about it later, proposing a plan in a way that looks (to me, at least) more cred-hunting than actually wanting to help the town, expressing interest in seeing a townie hammer another townie, trying to discredit my case on him by saying that I'm also guilty of what he did, which is completely wrong since we were talking about different people, different reactions, different levels of scumminess, and yeah that's mostly it. It's just five pages, but my scumdar pings quite a lot here.

[Wisdom]

>.> Last time you copied and reworded my reads you were scum. Why are you doing it again?

Also, since your plan is over now, mind explaining what exactly you were doing?

[Wisdom]

Okay, fair enough. I agree that the plan can easily be used by scum to manipulate town, and that's how I felt when kmd proposed it.

[Wisdom]

You fixed that pretty fast, something tells me you actually knew it before asking.

[Wisdom]

Why is it bad? Explain.

[Wisdom]

If you think I didn't see this, you missed my 128.

[Wisdom]

I don't think CDog would be so scummy if he was scum (fallacy, I know), and as such I don't think he's the best lynch. I'd maybe consider to have him be the hammerer.

[Wisdom]

I didn't actually counter it. I know it doesn't make much sense, but I believe CDog would not act this way if he was scum. The way he posts now might seem scummy, but I can see him doing it as town.

[Wisdom]

Not if someone is scummier. You should vote kmd again.

[Wisdom]

In my opinion, he is.

[Wisdom]

"who is still voting for them". So no.

[Wisdom]

Cheery, who is scum? Why aren't you voting scum and instead settle for null reads?

[Wisdom]

Don't you think some of the scum would try to participate in town's strategizing regardless?

[Wisdom]

So, you agree with Kmd's plan?

Yes, I think we all agree anyways. As I said, this plan is not something that kmd came up with, it existed already as a recommended way to deal with this setup.

[Wisdom]

@Lincolm
For now, I believe we should vote who we believe is scum, and only when we decide who are the scummiest will the plan come into play. So don't worry too much about it yet.

pedit: ffs slimer, can't you selectively quote? Gonna read now

[Wisdom]

Yeah okay. slimer is scum.

[Wisdom]

He actually quoted the whole of kmd's post just to answer to one small line.

[Wisdom]

slimer, the newbie card only works once. You have played enough games now, so don't act like a newbie. It won't save you.

[Wisdom]

What is your opinion on everything that has happened other than Lincolm's "gambit"?

[Wisdom]

^Does this mean you think he's town?

[Wisdom]

The more "funny" he is, the bigger the chance he's scum.

[Wisdom]

Yup. As town, he gets bored and he may even request replacement.

[Wisdom]

If it helps you - slimer played the newbie card in his first scum game, and it worked for him, as everyone thought he's for sure town.

[Wisdom]

Yeah, I was.

[Wisdom]

Nah, the psychological difference of knowing kmd and Malakittens are your partners make you play different in this game.

[Wisdom]

Well 2 out of 3 ain't bad, is it?

[Wisdom]

I
Wisdom asks the Mod to pm those who hadn't posted yet and then in post 84 says he doesn't want the Mod to chase them. The request was a minor scum-tell to me as it looked like he was trying to appear helpful and the back track was unconvincing (what's the difference?).

The difference is that I noticed there were no DayStart pms so I thought the remaining players might not be aware of the fact the game had started.

In post 115, Wisdom accuses Kmd of lying and misreps him, and again in post 117.

Misrep? Please. He lied. He found a RVS vote strange and then acted like nothing happened.

@ Wisdom: How long would you have waited before responding to any of the reactions from Wicked's joke post if Kmd hadn't already done so? You say Kmd stopped it fulfilling its purpose but I think you're wrong there, it did fulfill its purpose of getting discussion going, and did it very well. Why would you want to delay that?

Until everyone/almost everyone had posted. Two people are not everyone. There were other ways of getting discussion going without ruining the purpose.

Are you aware of the difference in meaning between the words "strange" and "curious"?

Not sure how that's relevant, but yes.


Huntress is the third scum apparently. Sorry, Malakittens.

[Wisdom]

Regarding his "plan" - I had already read about it before, so it's not like the plan was something kmd came up with.

What did you mean by this?

I had heard about this plan as a recommended strategy for this setup before. It's not something kmd came up with.

I think "killing it and discreditting it" is an exaggeration, especially considering you, yourself, admitted that most people realized I was joking and only a few players would actually take it seriously. I still find it strange that you would vote Kmd for discrediting my joke when, in the post in question, he votes Lincolm for his reaction thus taking advantage of my joke. Aside from Lincolm, who else did you think might have taken my joke seriously?

A lot of players had not posted at all, so who knows. Cheery also took it seriously, slimer possibly would also take it seriously.. and I don't know about the others because we never got to know. I didn't find Lincolm's reaction strange at all, because from what I knew about him I expected him to take it seriously, and kmd's vote on him looked too opportunistic.

I have issue with this explanation.
1. What good is a pressure vote when the player you're voting for is also voting for their self? Lincolm didn't seem to mind the votes on him at the time.

I explained - I wanted to keep the L-1 state to see the reactions, from Lincolm and from others.

2. Why would you pressure vote somebody you thought was town, rather than your top suspect Kmd?

See 1.

3. If you thought Lincolm was town, then why did you say this:

Regarding his "plan" - I had already read about it before, so it's not like the plan was something kmd came up with. Wouldn't it be nice for scum to give this plan to the town in order to gain cred? This is what I instantly thought when I saw him mentioning it in his first serious post. The way he's trying to use it ("I want Wisdom to hammer Lincolm" - aka I want town to hammer town, because yes,

I find Lincolm town

now

), further confirms to me that it comes from scum. Look at how wicked adds to it in 103 - that's a townie with genuine motivations to use the plan - kmd wasn't.

?

Because I had given the impression I believed Lincolm was scum until that point, so I wanted to highlight the fact that's not the case.

[Wisdom]

Maybe it's just me, but I would have been a trifle irritated if I had logged in and found a pm sent because I hadn't posted in a game just a few hours old. Differing time zones mean not everyone's going to be available at the same time. Your action seemed premature.

Again, what I asked was not prods, it was DayStart pms. I wanted to make sure everyone knows the game started. I have seen cases where players don't know the game started until after a lot of pages, and it gets more difficult to read those players than if they had played from the beginning.

He never said he found the vote strange. That was your word, not his. And the "misrep" related to another point. Not this.

Explain how I misrepped him then. Also explain what I misunderstood, because he clearly said that he asked for a reasoning for an RVS vote because he came into the thread and saw a vote, and this made him curious. What am I missing?

So you expected people to ignore the only thing that was going on in the thread at the time and do what?

Anything except discredit the case and call it a joke. Plenty of things to do.

[Wisdom]

Everyone does not play the same, slimer. And you're wrong about your theory that everything is null - if it was so, we would just vote without discussing at all and just hope to get information from the flips.

[Wisdom]

Wisdom, I have no idea where you make the leap from me wondering if a vote has a reason or not to me finding that vote strange. I just don't follow the process at all. Care to walk me through it?

Why did you want a reason for an RVS vote, that's what I asked you and you said you were curious. Why were you curious for an RVS vote? RVS is RVS, I don't understand how you're curious about RVS.

Wait. You left a vote on someone who you thought was town (lincolm) at L-1 for reactions?!?!? Wow. Just wow.

Yes. There was a reason Lincolm wanted to be at L-1, and that's reactions. I wanted to keep him at L-1 until his "plan" was over.

One more thing. You say my plan seems "manipulative" and wanting to control the hammer. If that were the case, why would I effectively shift that control to the entire town rather than for example say that we appoint someone to decide and then try to make myself that person? If I were scum wanting control, it would make no sense to propose that we all discuss who hammers together.

Because nobody would agree with it, duh. As it has already been said, scum will involve themselves in town's strategizing. That's what you're trying to do.

I see you (wisdom still) say you've seen blue's scum play. Can you describe how he played in that game?

He was somewhat overactive, questioning everything that was posted, trying to fake scumhunting, and didn't hesitate to vote his scumbuddy too. Doesn't look like this here, not that this means anything. Everyone doesn't play the same in all games.

Wisdom, slimer is still a newbie.

Yes, but not as newbie as he was. He has played some games now. If we allow him to slip by with using the newbie card again, we'll be foolish.

[Wisdom]

@slimer
I don't have a clue what you just said, but you're still wrong. And scum.

[Wisdom]

L-1 vote. If anyone still doubts slimer is scum, they're stupid.

Lincolm was not anti-town. Lincolm was looking for reactions. And so did I. But you know that, don't you?

[Wisdom]

Explain how it was harmful. Nobody was going to hammer Lincolm, they're not stupid.

I'm not pleading for you to be lynched, check again where my vote is.

[Wisdom]

If 3 scums on Wisdom's wagon, I'm going to laugh hysterically and cry in my sleep.

I'm finding this unlikely tbh. They wouldn't give themselves out so easily. So as much as I wanna believe it's kmd/slimer/Huntress, I am surely wrong for one or two.

[Wisdom]

Btw @kmd - I have not dismissed the plan. I guess you haven't read everything, but I have clearly said that I'm willing to follow it.

[Wisdom]

You think you'll help the town by killing yourself, who you supposedly know are town? Right.

And yes, you were curious about a RVS vote. Why would you be curious about a RVS vote? RVS is RVS. What's so strange about it?

As for slimer, he's scum. But you know that already.

[Wisdom]

You said yourself you found it curious. And you asked for reasoning. So, yeah.

We will follow the plan regardless of whether you die or not, so why do you want to die for that?

[Wisdom]

ebwop: you were curious*

[Wisdom]

Yeah, you keep not answering though. Why curious about a RVS vote? Why did you need reasoning?

[Wisdom]

I'm not self-voting.

[Wisdom]

We will follow the plan regardless of whether you die or not, so why do you want to die for that?

Answer this.

[Wisdom]

Yeah, but we'll still follow it, because it's the optimal way to play this setup, not your plan.

[Wisdom]

I'll tell you when/if it happens.

[Wisdom]

You missed the point on slimer. Wisdom pointed out that he quoted a whole post to reply to like one line and called it scummy.

I did not call that scummy.

[Wisdom]

If someone has to hammer me, let it be slimer please.

[Wisdom]

I smell two town deaths coming...

[Wisdom]

Only if you're scum (and you won't do it if you are), so no.

[Wisdom]

Well, kmd's intent seems genuine. It might be a bluff, but I don't know.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: slimer

[Wisdom]

That's not a misrep either. In my point of view, both me and Lincolm are town. Therefore, kmd stating he wants me to hammer Lincolm looked like scum wanting town to hammer town.

And he did it again in 279.. which makes me wonder if he's really unsure town or scum bluffying so that someone other than him hammers me.

[Wisdom]

So you don't want me to die anymore?

[Wisdom]

Oh so you're willing to hammer me? Good.

[Wisdom]

If I selfvote, will you hammer me?

[Wisdom]

VOTE: Wisdom

do it

[Wisdom]

Do it with the right tags now.

[Wisdom]

...
If you're town, you're stupid and we just lost two townies.

[Wisdom]

Good job ^^