Mini Normal 1460 - Normalville Mafia (GAME OVER)

[Darthe]

hello!

[Darthe]

Personally I prefer to be a mafia traitor. So much fun to abuse both sides.

[Darthe]

^ meh

[Darthe]

^ I actually find it difficult to see town using the word scummy as justification for thoughts and attitudes displayed at any given time since there really are no stnadards, but in this instance I think your misuse is actually telling of a town alignment.

[Darthe]

Well this is quite slow.

[Darthe]

What do you mean by the "looking for a direction"-read?

town-Darthe is lots more active. But, this is also a smaller gamesize than the other I've played with him where he was more town-active. So, I want more from them than they have provided.

Aye, I check in quite enough but to me there's not much to go on yet.

[Darthe]

Willing to vote/hammer. Waiting for claim and response.

[Darthe]

To clarify, I am willin to vote Beazu or hammer him if we can get that far. Not agreeing with him and his oddness.

[Darthe]

My theory on this game is that nobody is mafia and you're all trolling me.

[Darthe]

You guys need to listen to Slandaar. I am TOWN. I swear to you. The reason that I want to lynch BP is because he just seems to me to REEK of scum so why not continue to try to push for someone that I feel is scum? That is also the reason I was not willing to move my vote. But, since people obviously cannot be convinced by my words I will just have to wait for the mafia to NK me n1 to show you my role PM. Maybe there is a doctor out there who is willing to protect me because as I said before, I am TOWN. Also, when I get killed will you please vote for BP. That is my dying wish. For now, I will vote with those who are more experienced and take their word that future is indeed scum. Hopefully you guys are right.

VOTE: Future

Didn't like you until here, but this post is townie as it gets, not because of the defense but because of the tone and concern for life.

To clarify, I am willin to vote Beazu or hammer him if we can get that far. Not agreeing with him and his oddness.

What are your thoughts on Future?

My thoughts are that mafia don't needlessly expose themselves like below without a reason, but since I can't see a reason for doing this other than sincerity it appears town to me and blown out of proportion by the further posts.

FUCK I REFERRED TO AN ONGOING GAME BUT THE GIST OF IT WAS THAT I'M FUCKING TOWN BECAUSE I'VE BEEN CALLED SCUMMY FOR BEING TOO MUCH OF AN ASSHOLE AND I DECIDED TO NOT BE AN ASSHOLE HERE

See, what could be the point?

Darthe

. Post something usable, otherwise I'm just gonna assume you're lurking and lynch you because if you're not scum in hiding you're just not being helpful.

Future

. If you don't reply soon I'm gonna start asking people to lynch your ass, cuz my vote's already there.

This guy pings. Setting up lynches, rhetoric and pointed conjecture "assume you're lurking, gonna ask people to lynch" etc. Why wouldn't he already be pushing if his vote was there instead of using it with a passive attitude? It can only be to avoid being linked to heavily to a lynch.

@BP
NL IS ANTI-TOWN.
Mislynch sounds like negative and we should prevent it, but it actually happens and is necessary/all part of the game. Lynching = chance of killing scum. NL = No chance of killing scum. (without factoring PRs, but im sure you get the basic idea)
Which comes to the point of... Knowing who is "conf scum" before you lynch? That's exactly what a scum would say, there's no way we will know a person's alignment before a flip (yeah cops and shit, but that's not the point here)
Day flips are as important as night flips. The conversations and bandwagons and shifts are what makes the dynamics of a lynch informative. If we decide on an NL scums can do whatever they want now and confuse town even more, there's no real incentive in trying to take any action or push any wagon.

Town makes mistakes and have mislynches. Its all part of the game. Towns are confident of lynches and scum hunting. Scums will NEVER be confident of a lynch, simply because mislynching makes them look scummy. Which is pretty much the exact "theory" you are talking about. Unless its a MYLO vs LYLO situation or something, in general NL is basically taking away town's main power.

Even if we get a night flip everything else turns into WIFOM D2.

I'm not gonna try and defend myself anymore. Everything's been said, I reckon, the logic to my no-lynch theory has been explained too often. I just wanna say that a no-lynch won't obviously occur, so don't be surprised if further ahead I vote for a lynch. I just think that at the time, we didn't have enough juice to get it started. And we do now.

Also, what?
If you're town why wouldn't you want to tell us more about what is going on in your mind? Why not share with us why an NL would benefit us? Why suggest and "defend" yourself about the benefits of an NL, then give up halfway and tell us you will vote for a lynch? How would you explain that your action's aren't scum motivated? What makes you think that you can get information now to be confident enough to lynch "scum"? What happened to looking at N1 kill and starting your scum hunting from there? What changed from #30 to #112?

Also, could you name your top 2 town and scum for us?

@PeregrineV's 109
How does BP looks town to you?

SCUM FOUND.

Vote:BP

This was a great post and you sir have earned a town read.

@Elyse I just feel like scum will want to nk me because I've been causing a lot of ripples in the water and making accusations.

If you are wrong they will keep you around. Controversy can be a good distraction.

catching up in progress.

Are you in every normal?

5. Quite frankly, everything. My NL vote got loads of reactions and kinda got the game going, I think. Plus, Grimgroove's post on Future is quite the case, and Darthe's lurking is also something that worries me. But if you think that between page 2 and 7 nothing deserved of a change has happened, well then... give the thread another read.

This sounds exactly like the sort of thing scum would say. "I was wrong and was trying to pull a fast one early, but it got reactions guys!!!! Also, please don't lynch me."

We are still only on page seven. I don't see how you can both chastise and use my statement that I would not mind a hammer against me (I can quote this for you all if you want) on the basis that it is so early in the game and then come back and use against me that I don't think we are far enough to have a ton of reads based on the number of posts or pages. The two are in direct conflict and it looks like a backing of BP, not to mention basically the same logic.

In short,

unvote vote BP

[Darthe]

Post 49. Never did I say I voted NL for other reason other than I though that was the way to go.

Anywho. Off to bed. Day off tomorra. I sincerely hope that during the next day things will develop. Cheerio!

not talking about post 49. I'm talking about the post I quoted.

[

@Red Dragon

"Pulling a fast one"? Explain.

I don't understand the question.

The two are in direct conflict and it looks like a backing of BP, not to mention basically the same logic.

Cool story, but I'm voting him.

D1 lynches might not exactly be ground breaking, but as per discussion it is more beneficial for town to lynch. Therefore its more beneficial for scum to suggest NL. Another key idea why BP is scummy is because of his inconsistency in his idea.

He basically "changed sides" because the side he was on makes him look bad, which is what scums fear.

*nods* all of a sudden he is okay with voting and everything. This is the "pulling a fast one" I was referring to (f that is the correct interpretation of the question).

In this case numberfour defended a no lynch on Day 1 and was town.

And he deserved to die for being anti-town. But this really comes up to opinion. I'm down with lynching village idiots, are you?

Again: when talking about No Lynching: it's not obscure. It's a stance that has certain arguments going for it that are convincing enough for some people, and not for others. It is not alignment indicative.

Here is the deal that I don't think you understand. NL day 1 is a horrible idea for reasons already explained (we lose a lynch, flip, chance at hitting scum, etc.). If the town nl d1 it puts the scum at a significant advantage over the town, thus it would be a good idea if scum could a achieve a no lynch d1. It makes prefect sense for scum to advocate for a nl d1 because it helps them out. So yes arguing for a no lynch is scummy, or at the very least not town.

Technically the best times to no lynch are day 1 or lylo (or is it mylo, I always confuse those) and the worst time is mid game.

The points you made against no lynching aren't wrong Dragon, they just are general faults in no lynch and not specific to day one. The real disadvantage to a no lynch day one is that no info is available at the time, so it can seem to be a crapshoot. However, if the game starts at night or you happen to have multiple investigative PR's or an open setup etc, it can be a very safe and effective way to run early game.

[Darthe]

@Mod, I voted BP in post 166. Sorry, don't know how to highlight in white.

[Darthe]

ah I see, thank you.

Vote: BP

[Darthe]

Dammit..

Vote: BP

[Darthe]

I get why people have issue with future, but his play doesn't make sense as mafia even in ISO. It would be incredibly poor mafia play.

[Darthe]

I can't decide if the push here is to let a townie hammer for info or to stall the hammer from the mafia's perspective. In either case it doesn't look to me like a scum lynch still, but that could just be because of D1's practically infoless nature. BP just had some bad whyme fryme, and I like Ztife's post above as well as the quote from Baezu.

[Darthe]

Normally I don't think inactivity says something about alignment (luckily, if not pretty much all of you would be scum), but in this case I can't help but feel Future's sudden absence is scummy. He never adressed the issues laid before him, and left off in a hurried fury.
I realize it's rarely a good idea to lynch without a claim, but I don't think even a claim would convince me in this case, and I don't feel like sitting here idly for something tohappen. This game desperately needs a CPR shock in its current state, half of the playing field doesn't give a shit about what goes on here, and don't evenr ead half of people's posts.
I think a lynch on Future might at least provide some clearer basis for discussion, and will get use one lynched scum as an added bonus.
Hammertime!

This is fair. BP, I do not think it is lynching to push activity, I think it is lynching to get progress.

[Darthe]

I get why people have issue with future, but his play doesn't make sense as mafia even in ISO. It would be incredibly poor mafia play.

Does it make much sense as town?

Good point..

[Darthe]

I don't think he is going to claim. I would rather a BP lynch but some info is prefered over a multi-day stall..

[Darthe]

No and stop being dumb. We can wait a day or two. I don't want to piss away a week or anything if he doesn't show up but a little time isn't hard to give.

[Darthe]

"If future flips this then I am doing this" is a short sighted view and not bankable.

I am very conflicted this game and I do not like it. Future looks like an idiot, but as king of the idiots I am defending the poor soul and I do not like his train, especially don't like BP (jumped off) or Slandaar. Red dragon and those two are my predicted scum team.

[Darthe]

Claim now, read and give thoughts after. Also, welcome to MS. Care for a spot of tea?

[Darthe]

Bullshit. <b>unvote vote sunnydays </b>

[Darthe]

It was obviously faked to get pressure on someone who made a retarded claim. And it worked. God look at his flail over that entire last page, at least we have a good read from him now.

@MOD, if you seriously entered someone in without giving them a proper role PM so they couldn't claim... that is affecting the game.

[Darthe]

Slandaar, your town read on Darthe makes NO sense and I'd like clarification on that please because it looks like you only made that list and voted gooner to distract everyone from the actual mafia. As soon as you posted that stuff everyone immediately started ignoring what just happened to me, which is unfair because it basically just proved that Darthe is scum. I feel cheated here considering that just moments ago you were voting me and now don't even care to discuss Darthe with me, which if you were really town you would do.

I'm also messaging the mod to get final clarification but I'm guessing that this is the standard role on this site. I think in the future however, if this proved anything, we should try not to make people claim unless we're 100% positive they're scum.

This guy might be stupid, just a heads up for the rest of you.

He feels cheated.


I'm thinking BP, Dragon, and idk the third (but I don't get the gooner train).

Also, why do so many strongly feel that dragon is scum but sheep Sal instead? Gooner hasn't done nearly enough to warrant it.

Unvote, Vote: Red Dragon

[Darthe]

Glad we are back guys.

[Darthe]

Honestly, I have somewhat lost my train of thought in the gap here, but I am reading back up to review what I was thinking and find new things.

I do quite clearly remember that thegooner's train was pretty disproportionate to his play.

[Darthe]

^ ALL ABOARD!

[Darthe]

I haven't seen enough of his play to get a good feel for him yet but I am leaning slightly towards town for Nacho.

Red Dragon can die in a fire. I hate self votes.

Nacho, have you read the game yet?

[Darthe]

I'll wait for your list of reads, thanks.

[Darthe]

Pages 9-16: Random Observations

Townie vibe= $
Scum vibe = !

Elyse

$345

Nachomamma

!358 !!318

Ztife

$[post=# 5057637]#371[/post]

Baezu

!#372 $#279

SunnyDays

$#317

Darthe

$#352 !!#288

Grimgroove

!#330 !#343 $#232

Slandaar

$#303

Red Dragon

$#305 $$#272 !!#224

BP

!#270 !#229 $#212

PeregrineV

!#206

Okay, I’m really exhausted right now from making this list and looking through things. But there’s a lot of sheeping going on. And I’m not familiar enough with everyone to tell who’s saying “I’m gonna sheep X now” but it looks sketchy. And the wagons are starting awfully fast, the switches are so sudden.

This helps me get familiar with everyone by forcing myself to do stuff like this and form opinions. Still very incomplete though. Be back tomorrow. I’ve only worked like this in one of my past games and it was because I really, really liked the game.

Right now, I don't like Grim or BP (who is getting replaced, I think?) and especially I feel pretty uncomfortable about Nachomamma. So those are the people I'm feeling bad about - so I chalk those as my current scumreads. If you ask me to explain, that'll lead me to talk more so that's good. Again, I am still getting familiar with you all so please bear with me.

I've been staunchly defending Red Dragon because I do think he/she is town, albeit an extremely overreactive, cornball emotional town. That's how I see him/her. Overall the self-voting thing pity-party crap if any random player were to do it could swing as town or scum, but my read is saying she/he is town.

I like Darthe. Really positive vibes is all I have to say.

Null/leaning town for the chernobyl person: I barely remember him/her but I remember having good feelings. Slandaar is quite outspoken, but I feel like he/she was trying to help and get reactions and do overall helpful things for town.

Elyse is null for me so far. She has this air of superiority which kinda rubs me the wrong way (sorry I don't mean to be offensive) and I'm having trouble reading her. Being honest here.

Sunnydays is quite a character. And a pretty crazy entrance. I'd say town, although it won't take too much arguing to make me sway the other way. But no, I see her as pretty town to be honest. I'd say maybe a 5% chance she/he manafactured it all. But looking at join date and everything, IDK I seriously doubt it. Red DRagon is just being so super-paranoid, it really gets on my nerves and I'd like to see his/her death just to see him/her to shut up, but other than that I think RD is town anyway.

Ztife is null. I'm confused about my read on him/her. Again feel free to ask questions. Still incomplete here.

Using the premise of $ for town and ! for mafia, I must assume that !! means that NachoPops got a strongly negative vibe from anything that we see !! on and a strongly positive vibe from anything that we see a $$ on.

Thus the reads stand as this if translated into a positive/negative scale of + or - five.

Elyse: +1
Nachomamma: -3
Ztife: +2
Beazu: 0
Sunny: +1
Darthe: -1
Grim: -1
Sal: +1
Red Dragon: +1
BP: -1
Pere: -1

It should be recognized that this method of analysis is not quite salient because you cannot fully quantify such a thing, however these reads are relative to the players overall expression of their views of the players. Thus the points given at the beginning of the post should reflect the players views with the latter examination and links demonstrating specific reasons. With that in mind, Ztife should be shown as NachoPops strongest town read and NachoMa as definitive scum.

This does not happen. If we examine the first point of NachoPops' analysis we see that the individual thinks poorly of sheeping, however they mark it as their single strongest reason for a town read on myself in the quoted post above. They complain about both inactivity and the speed of trains and their formation which are general complaints.

The player does list their three scumreads as Grim, BP, and NachoMa respectively, but holds really positive vibes for myself who is also at -1 with the other two and RD who is appropriately at +1. They then mention someone who does not exist (chery) and indicate that they feel slightly positive about Sal who is listed as the same rank as RD. Elyse, also a +1 is called null.

Past this point Sunny, Pere, and Ztife are counted as null when Ztife is the strongest town read and Sunny/Pere are +-1 respectively. Red dragon is defended again, making this post a sort of RD defense sandwich.


Based on this analysis I would say that Nacho is town attempting to catch up and a bit scatterbrained on his/her considerations. However, I think that if RD flips mafia then this entire line of reasoning and the redundant defense can be appraised in a new light.

[Darthe]

Red Dragon can die in a fire. I hate self votes.

If you don't like his vote on himself, why do you like your vote on him?

Others have pretty much said it for me, but the main thing here is that self voting tends to be an appeal to apathy or attempt at reverse psychology. The whole line of reasoning being: I wouldn't do this if I was scum because scum values their life more, because townie self votes are a sign of frustration with the game in general, because it is counter intuitive to help kill yourself where you desire life. It is a play off of Ocham's Razor and thus has been so commonly picked up on that where it was initially a town tell it is now a slight scum tell (in my eyes at least) because of how easily it can diffuse a situation.

I wouldn't give it a 5:1 ratio, but from what I have seen it is probably a 2:1 and combined with his play it works to what I already suspect.

Beyond that, the amusing way that he tried to twist it by saying that I am absolving myself with it was pitifully scummy because it shows disparity between his self vote and his interest in self preservation, thus revealing that he does not want to die at all. <--- This + Play + Attitude = Scum.

Further, town PR's never self vote. Never. Thus I guarantee that if we push him to L-2 or so we would get a big fake claim that is utter bull.

Bag em.

[Darthe]

That is because you are petty.

@Nacho, no.

[Darthe]

Nachos, what are your reads on one another and why?


Red Dragon seems to have gone off the radar when the heat turned up.

[Darthe]

I think I hate you both.

[Darthe]

Do everyone a favor and move your vote to someone you actually think is scum.

This should never have to be asked. Why are you buddying so hard?

Red Dragon can die in a fire. I hate self votes.

If you don't like his vote on himself, why do you like your vote on him?

Others have pretty much said it for me, but the main thing here is that self voting tends to be an appeal to apathy or attempt at reverse psychology. The whole line of reasoning being: I wouldn't do this if I was scum because scum values their life more, because townie self votes are a sign of frustration with the game in general, because it is counter intuitive to help kill yourself where you desire life. It is a play off of Ocham's Razor and thus has been so commonly picked up on that where it was initially a town tell it is now a slight scum tell (in my eyes at least) because of how easily it can diffuse a situation.

I wouldn't give it a 5:1 ratio, but from what I have seen it is probably a 2:1 and combined with his play it works to what I already suspect.

Beyond that, the amusing way that he tried to twist it by saying that I am absolving myself with it was pitifully scummy because it shows disparity between his self vote and his interest in self preservation, thus revealing that he does not want to die at all. <--- This + Play + Attitude = Scum.

Further, town PR's never self vote. Never. Thus I guarantee that if we push him to L-2 or so we would get a big fake claim that is utter bull.

Bag em.

okay, cool. I'm scum for the self vote, I can see that. So will you offer to lynch yourself if I flip town? Meaning that if I do flip town will self vote and ride your own wagon. The reason I want to make this deal with you is ebcause I think you are exactly the type of wagon goer that could easily be scum. You hop on... wait a bit... and then justify your reasons with

generic

arguments that are not really applicable in this situation. Your hop seems opportunistic. Because I know I'm town, I have 100% full confidence in the proposition I am making.

Weak shit bargaining here, this is definitely what I expect of scum play. So, yes. I will happily vote myself if you flip town. Question is, since you don't actually think I am scum as evidenced by your response to Grimgrooves post above, why do you want to kill another townie if you flip as one as well?

Red Dragon seems to have gone off the radar when the heat turned up.

What the fuck are you talking about? Yeah, what are you talking about? I can't post for one day and I'm under the radar. Now you are inventing things and trying to derail the new counter wagon.

I don't agree with the nacho lynch, but you exhibited different play by not rambunctiously charging at whatever pops up and yesterday it struck me as odd.

[/quote]


Responses in bold. Is anyone really surprised that he is voting his counterwagon? Not exactly original, again it is a move to get attention off of himself and it required practically no effort.

[Darthe]

Red Dragon seems to have gone off the radar when the heat turned up.

This is bad as well. He only posted yesterday. If anything, he dropping off the radar is a good sign of him being town.
Could you respond to 389?
Also, the heat didn't really turn up, with Nachomamma voting on yet another possibly popular wagon it actually turned down again.

What more need I say on 389? I answered this last page.

Red Dragon can die in a fire. I hate self votes.

If you don't like his vote on himself, why do you like your vote on him?

Others have pretty much said it for me, but the main thing here is that self voting tends to be an appeal to apathy or attempt at reverse psychology. The whole line of reasoning being: I wouldn't do this if I was scum because scum values their life more, because townie self votes are a sign of frustration with the game in general, because it is counter intuitive to help kill yourself where you desire life. It is a play off of Ocham's Razor and thus has been so commonly picked up on that where it was initially a town tell it is now a slight scum tell (in my eyes at least) because of how easily it can diffuse a situation.

I wouldn't give it a 5:1 ratio, but from what I have seen it is probably a 2:1 and combined with his play it works to what I already suspect.

Beyond that, the amusing way that he tried to twist it by saying that I am absolving myself with it was pitifully scummy because it shows disparity between his self vote and his interest in self preservation, thus revealing that he does not want to die at all. <--- This + Play + Attitude = Scum.

Further, town PR's never self vote. Never. Thus I guarantee that if we push him to L-2 or so we would get a big fake claim that is utter bull.

Bag em.

[Darthe]

How about we get Red Dragonscum instead of people floundering for other lynches for unremarkable reasons?

The chainsaw defending going on here is fucking ridiculous, seriously. Grim, could you possibly deflect from this with anyone else? You've only pointed fingers at about half the player roster now.

I found mafia. And he still hasn't played to his normal activity level again. Truly, RD is laying low.

[Darthe]

I'll happily respond to points that I do not agree with tonight (girlfriends birthday, I'm reading as I get ready). Personally, I think Elyse and Nacho are town on town and my point is that when a lynch is getting continuously stalled by any means it typically is indicative of mafia not wanting that person to be pressured or lynched. When you take into consideration that this is a self voting, depraved, lurking, and manipulative soul who has had every opportunity and reason known to man to be lynched and yet he isn't: something is fishy.

And yeah, Nacho/Elyse are not playing their greatest. But your conjecture of some wildly large setup between them and I is simply implausible to me, and would be even if I didn't know my own role PM.

Personally, I don't actually have much on Ztife. He is sort of another weak case that isn't doing much but also won't give much info. I don't know why you would want that to be our D1 lynch as he is one of the least profitable available.

[Darthe]

Sorry all, my head is not nearly into this enough to read your WoT's and analyze tonight etc, but I will try to get on this tomorrow.

I keep forgetting that Ztife exists though and everytime I see chernobyl on a VC I think it odd because I recognize him by his avatar. Like I said, heads not in it at all.

[Darthe]

Not really a scumslip.

I still have a moderate town read on Elyse, and am not surprised to see RD jumping all over this.

You know, Grim, if you're looking for something specifically then you are likely to find it whether true or not. Setting these parameters of Ztife, Elyse, Darthe into a triangle and then plug and chugging doesn't actually constitute scumhunting.

Sunny still looks townie as hell.

[Darthe]

The only people who shouldn't be lynching RD are the ones on his scum team.

[Darthe]

Says the hedgehog.

[Darthe]

You know, Grim, if you're looking for something specifically then you are likely to find it whether true or not. Setting these parameters of Ztife, Elyse, Darthe into a triangle and then plug and chugging doesn't actually constitute scumhunting.

What makes you think this is how it happened? Actually, thinking that I've been doing this I guess should result in a scumread on me, no? You're basically saying I made a case out of thin air and not scumhunting, thus only trying to pretend to do so? Or am I understanding you incorrectly?

The only thing I'm looking for specifically is "scum". I thought that was the point here. But I didn't put a parameter "Ztife is scum" before delving into his posts, I reached that conclusion only after doing so.

There could be a mistake in my associative tells between the three of you, but like I said again and again, these associative tells do not constitute the center of the case against Ztife.

I think you misunderstood, since I don't have a scum read on you. I am saying that it is a type of confirmation bias. You create something based on what you want to believe or, in this instance what you think but do not know, and when you view everything in that light it fits. It is a circumstantial way to hunt for mafia and the reason for this is that the inverse cannot be said. You can't alternatively state that if you did know the alignment of one of the three that the other two would then be town as well as that would be a type of logic that had gaping flaws in it.

[Darthe]

We are lynching RD scum. Beazu is not an option. Nacho, to use his term, is town as fuck and elyse is as well.

Also, Nachopop is getting annoying as shit. Caps.. really?

[Darthe]

Elyse, why do you have a problem with me doing the same stuff you're doing?

Why does that make me scum? I have voted on 3 people this entire game. You've had your votes on: Kattaze, gooner, Slandaar, reddragon, and me; you've FoS'd future (post #155). Perhaos the people you haven't voted are your scum buddies.
\

Fuck, I really wanted you to be town. How did this drivel make its way into a case? How can you admit to doing one thing and simultaneously continue to accept it in yourself while condemning it in another? Worse, using that as a point against them.

I want this day to end, I want info, and it is tiring to watch continue.

unvote vote: beazu

[Darthe]

I so hate you.

Grim, I don't see the point in arguing with you about my alignment. The only way that you would know it is if you were mafia and I doubt severely that you are so either point out logically why I am not in your eyes *without* having to use the scapegoat of my connection to other people that you find scummy aka why you do so on its own merits, or you won't have credibility in this.

[Darthe]

Easy enough. I didn't want Beazu lynched before his directly contradictory statement. He has been town (if not pro-town) in my eyes for most of the game and yet I recognize that the RD train isn't going anywhere and Beazu has managed to diminish my confidence in him by introducing blatantly poor statements, the one that I quoted being the tipping point for me.

[Darthe]

Nacho, stop being fucking retarded plox.

I'm not surprised at four speed votes on me, two of which are essentially baseless. At the risk of quoting Elyse, "clusterfuck" doesn't begin to describe it.

Put simply, I am clueless as to how this dynamic even formed and Grim has unfortunately fallen to the status of derptown. Will examine more when my headache is gone.

[Darthe]

^this. Beazu said something retarded. I have made clear that I don't put up with that, that RD wasn't getting lynched today as evidenced by the near total lack of support for that train, and that I want the day to end for info.

I couldn't possibly need more reason for the vote, which is completely valid and helpful in my eyes. The severe nature of the attacks on me from this strike me as contrived, especially from Grim (688 is terrible when I am at L-3 and closest to a lynch all from one post and in a single page) and Granger is talking out of his ass in 687 (The line "I would lynch anyone no matter how town they have been for blah blah blah" is simple logical fallacy).

[Darthe]

Examine dynamics? Just start with this.

But it's not a contradictory statement, using hypocrisy as an argument against someone is very common practice. I've never seen it happen that when someone uses it, he gets a scumread on him instead of a townread as a result. Yet it happened here.

I'd ask which other statements you find blatantly poor, but given the tipping point has not succeeded in convincing me, I don't think the others will either.

Is RD your only alternative scumread?

Or alternatively, this:

Darthe:

Then comes this:

Fuck, I really wanted you to be town. How did this drivel make its way into a case? How can you admit to doing one thing and simultaneously continue to accept it in yourself while condemning it in another? Worse, using that as a point against them.

I want this day to end, I want info, and it is tiring to watch continue.

unvote vote: beazu

All this game, throughout the entire game, you build a case against Red Dragon, you are certain he is scum and all that jazz. Suddenly Baezu looks like a sizeable wagon and you instantly forget about Red Dragon and hop there immediately, based on completely nonexistent scum read. I'm sorry, but that's as scummy as it gets. Refer to Antagon in Newbie 1391 and Honest Abel in Newbie 1344.

There is one thing that could potentially absolve Darthe, and that's his fakehammer. That was a very townie-thing to do and a real good find. People are usually honest post-hammer, and probably Darthe was trying to find out something in this way, by messing with SunnyDays' head.

So he's done one very townish thing and one very scumiish thing. This should make him null I guess, but it's easier to fake townish things (and there's also no point in faking scummish things), so the quotes above summary pretty well why he should be lynched.

If anything was derp Darthe, it was your switch to Baezu for no decent reason at all. Regardless of your alignment.

I believe that I have stated several times now that I am very suspect of RD and BP. I am slightly suspect of Beazu.
I have town reads on: Elyse, Nachomomma, Grim, Cherynobyl, Pere, Sal, and Sunny. Beazu used to be on this list.
Stranger and Nachopop I am null on. Null really isn't accurate, because I have feelings about them, they are simply mixed. Stranger is likely bias on my part, because he does things that I don't agree with and is seeing the game so differently that it seems off but he presents it genuinely. Nacho is just all over the place.

Thus, since I doubt my list is fully accurate, I must assume that my town reads at least include a scum between them in one or perhaps even two slots.

Discussing why I switched on Beazu: It was simply a case of illogical confirmations on my side. Of course, these things aren't apparent unless I type them up in full, but simply stated Beazu struck me as town because I thought that his play was just inconsistent enough to fit the role of a general townie attempting to move through a game without giving it their all. The sort of play you see from people who are tired of being vanilla, who are playing in 3+ games at once, etc. Further, I was busy pushing RDscum at the time. However, literally attacking someone for something as you yourself do it is not the kind of illogical belief that I ever allow to go on without repercussion in a game. I had some doubts clearly about the player before, but not his alignment if that makes sense? Thus, when I saw his post my view had to change and with it and the realization that an RD lynch isn't happening, I switched and am further okay with my vote.

This is simple logic, it doesn't seem necessary to explain it IMO, but the frankly moronic play that I have seen thus far seems to indicate that I may need to spell everything out. If that offends you, it should. The entire game has floundered (aka apathetically evolved into a state of waste not beneficial to actual reasoning) because nobody is willing to strike out and achieve a lynch. Well, I am. I honestly couldn't give a damn if it is Beazu because he isn't a big town read for me, and thus this is the best means to an end that I have, viewed by me as my best available risk. Knowing my own alignment, I intend to naturally fight my own demise in this manner because I know that it can only cost the town. See the logic?

Past this I have no idea what you want me to respond to. The problem with your play Grim is that you attempt to elicit response from people and seem to find conviction in your beliefs if they do not immediately do so, but you fail to ask any questions. Everything above is my spelling out of my considerations, thoughts, and goals based on the assumption that these are the responses that you are looking for because you asked for a response to the quoted above and quite frankly their is nothing to respond to unless you were looking for me to explain in such detail why you are derptown?

The above was sarcasm, but also an example of a question. That is how this works. Since I had no clue that you wanted or needed response here it was unnecessary for me to give such until you asked.

I think that should about clear things up!

[Darthe]

Beazu said something retarded.

No.

Yes. Very much yes.

[Darthe]

Nachopop is officially the second worst player that I have ever encountered.

Ztife, what are you doing? Get on a decent train. Chernobyl: its dead, move on for now.


With a day left you guys have to pick Beazu or I.

Since I may not be around I claim Vanilla Town.

[Darthe]

Why oh why is MS filled with apathetic mafia players? Do you all just spam multiple games until you find something you like?

[Darthe]

^Totally okay to say things like that. It's the difference between the attack of calling someone something and the personal attack of stating that someone is something Ie: you're a retard versus you're being retarded. Welcome to Mafia!

Unvote, vote Darthe

You realize that you're already voting me.. don't you?

[Darthe]

Actually looking at the player list I feel like everyone is exactly where I thought previously, varying shades of towniness other than my top three of four scumreads, which I'd rather not talk about because then scum will know who I'm reading as town and scum (besides Elyse and Darthe). If anyone NEEDS a specific read let me know.

VOTE: Darthe

I R Disappoint.

Past that, still have a town read on you but this post is bad. You don't want scum to know your scumreads so you won't share them on the game thread.. What the literal fuck is that accomplishing?

[Darthe]

@ Darthe, to your 694 (not going to quote it, it's a bit too long for that and I see no ponit of a quote war).

First thing I need to say: Stranger = BP. If you were very suspect of BP, there's no reason to be null on Stranger. I think it was brought up by someone before, but if your top-suspect replaced out, it's quite scummish not to be aware of that.

This part I have to quote because it shows the way how you are so terribly wrong about your reasons for voting Baezu, and how you are probably misrepping her on purpose:

However, literally attacking someone for something as you yourself do it is not the kind of illogical belief that I ever allow to go on without repercussion in a game.

This is NOT what Baezu did. Look at your own post when voting her:

Elyse, why do you have a problem with me doing the same stuff you're doing?

Why does that make me scum? I have voted on 3 people this entire game. You've had your votes on: Kattaze, gooner, Slandaar, reddragon, and me; you've FoS'd future (post #155). Perhaos the people you haven't voted are your scum buddies.
\

Fuck, I really wanted you to be town. How did this drivel make its way into a case? How can you admit to doing one thing and simultaneously continue to accept it in yourself while condemning it in another? Worse, using that as a point against them.

I want this day to end, I want info, and it is tiring to watch continue.

unvote vote: beazu

This is not the same thing. Baezu didn't vote someone for doing the same thing as he did, he voted someone who blamed him for doing something she did herself. In fact,h e's doing toh er what you later claim to do to him. Except that you're lying. You really should be lynched.

This is exactly why I wanted you to explain in detail why you voted on Baezu: to make it as clear as possible to anyone your reasons are very, very flawed. Like I said before: the switch from "Baezu is not an option" to "Lynch Baezu" after one post by her is not backed up in a satisfactory way, despite the switch being close to 180 degrees (even though you now claim you had doubts about her before, you did say she was not an option. You can't weasle your way out of that, yet you try).

About my play being derp: it quite possibly is. But I have no way to know if your comments are honest or if you're just scum trying to make me doubt my reads. I propose we move this subject to the post-game discussions, where I will be open to any crticisms on my play. It's obvious I'm still learning.

First, I treat people as their own player. If I replace into games then I treat myself as different to my replacement to measure myself in comparison to them. Likewise, I do this with other replacements when I see differences. Thus, BP was on my radar and I talked about him but I haven't much about stranger yet because I don't consider him in the same light. I have done this in past games as town and mafia.

Second: Beazu's vote and my stance on Beazu's vote are different entities entirely tied to the scenario. You can choose to read it that way if you wish to, however I did not see Beazu's statement as anything other than hypocritical and opportunistic. To me, this is enough to roll the dice on for D1.

Your play is not bad, I quite enjoy it and the analysis is good honestly. I simply have insight to my alignment and perhaps that is coloring my judgement. Post game sounds nice.

[Darthe]

@Darthe:

Do you seriously think I'm buying your case against Baezu? I already pointed out in my previous, independent, post-by-post analysis on Elyse: she contradicts herself all the time and then accuses people of being scum for things she herself does. First post: "I want to kill someone without influence". Rest of the game: "I agree with that", "Yes, that's sort of true", "Mhm, lynch him". I don't want to repeat myself. Read my own post about Elyse. The essence is: accusing someone of things you yourself do renders your case void and drops you down the scumslope. Do I need to explain that? Fine, I will.

Assume Johnny does X. According to Alfred, X is very scummy. Alfred has been doing X all game. By Alfred's own logic, he himself is mafia. The self-declared mafia accuses Johnny of being scum. Johnny points out how Alfred is wrong. You say pointing out how Alfred is wrong is scummy.

So to sum up, you:
1) switch sheepportunistically on Baezu, ignoring your mega-suspect (his wagon had lost momentum by that time)
2) ignore all town reads on Baezu
3) say Baezu is scummy using a self-contradictory logic
4) say I'm committing a logical fallacy for ignoring town reads on you

Explain to me how is your case valid and why you shouldn't be lynched already. "Talking out of your ass" is not an acceptable defence. Also I'm a she (and so is Baezu).

This post is, in its entirety, bullshit. From the get go we have useless rhetoric (self directed, which helps nobody as its a trap), comment on Elyse who I haven't spoken about besides to mention him/her in my town reads, a completely and utterly illogical hypothetical situation (try and figure out Johnny and Alfred, the only way it works is if one of them knows that they are mafia already and town doesn't so is this a scumslip or am I misreading?), a summation that doesn't work because it ignores my actual points in favor of the players perspective, and then sums it with more self directed rhetoric.

^Everyone should take the time to read my analysis of this post. Death can vindicate this one. Seriously, I wouldn't mind dying to prove myself so long as you all weigh the above post heavily.

[Darthe]

Btw I'm at L-1, Beazu is L-2.

[Darthe]

Am I seriously at the hands of this guy...

If you don't get the use of creating an emotional situation to gain information in a game entirely about profiling then we are going to need to have a long post game discussion.

Once I got a good enough read on you, why would I keep talking about you? It is counter productive.