Mini Normal 1460 - Normalville Mafia (GAME OVER)

[chernobylcitybus]

Caps-level pissed off that my post got deleted.

Why? The post was just you saying that you're town because you're trying to be nice this time, and then blaming it on being new to the game.

[Grimgroove]

To clarify, I am willin to vote Beazu or hammer him if we can get that far. Not agreeing with him and his oddness.

What are your thoughts on Future?

[Slandaar]

You didn't answer my question Baezu.

[Grimgroove]

My theory on this game is that nobody is mafia and you're all trolling me.

Because you have no scumreads?

[BP]

Darthe

. Post something usable, otherwise I'm just gonna assume you're lurking and lynch you because if you're not scum in hiding you're just not being helpful.

Future

. If you don't reply soon I'm gonna start asking people to lynch your ass, cuz my vote's already there.

[Elyse]

@Elyse I just feel like scum will want to nk me because I've been causing a lot of ripples in the water and making accusations. Creating controversy is usually something scum wants to quiet. I know it may be early to use caps, but I wanted to emphasize the fact that I am indeed town. I'm not really worried about a lynch but I don't think people have to wait until they're at L-1 to make a case for their alignment. I want it to be clear to everyone that their votes need to be elsewhere. The fact that future's vote is on me is prob indicative that he is indeed scum. I'm not going to apologize for being eager in this game. It's because I know I'm town and I'm doing my best to ensure that votes go where they need to go.

I'm beginning to shift on the whole

Baezu

thing. I am absolutely not sure whether she's town or guilty.

You guys need to listen to Slandaar. I am TOWN. I swear to you. The reason that I want to lynch BP is because he just seems to me to REEK of scum so why not continue to try to push for someone that I feel is scum? That is also the reason I was not willing to move my vote. But, since people obviously cannot be convinced by my words I will just have to wait for the mafia to NK me n1 to show you my role PM. Maybe there is a doctor out there who is willing to protect me because as I said before, I am TOWN. Also, when I get killed will you please vote for BP. That is my dying wish. For now, I will vote with those who are more experienced and take their word that future is indeed scum. Hopefully you guys are right.

VOTE: Future

1. Just like

Elyse

said, caps-claims of innocence don't quite add up to the general play of the game. But they don't ring to me as scum; quite on the contrary, it comes to confirm my theory that Baezu may very well an innocent newbie. Until...
2. She moves her vote to the

future

pro's-driven wagon even tho she just explained why she was reluctant to move her vote. She doesn't appear very convinced that

Future's

scum, but she'll join the town wagon anyways. Scum wagons for no reason other than to follow town.

I was hoping for a post that could clear up her alignment, but she posted this:

@Elyse I just feel like scum will want to nk me because I've been causing a lot of ripples in the water and making accusations. Creating controversy is usually something scum wants to quiet. I know it may be early to use caps, but I wanted to emphasize the fact that I am indeed town. I'm not really worried about a lynch but I don't think people have to wait until they're at L-1 to make a case for their alignment. I want it to be clear to everyone that their votes need to be elsewhere. The fact that future's vote is on me is prob indicative that he is indeed scum. I'm not going to apologize for being eager in this game. It's because I know I'm town and I'm doing my best to ensure that votes go where they need to go.

She clearly doesn't know how mafia operates. Creating controversy is precisely what scum wants, in order to confuse town and get a mislynch. (I think. You guys got me a bit insecure about my mafia theory. x) ) I think

Baezu

is just a newbie. I have no idea about her alignment until we see a lynch and I see who she's been trying to kill oh-so-eagerly.

I was going to respond to Baezu but BP took the words right out of my mouth.

So yeah thegooner and Future are good lynches ATM.

[Baezu]

@ slandaar you didn't answer mine either. I didn't vote for gooner because I felt the case against future was stronger.

[BP]

Baezu

@ slandaar you didn't answer mine either. I didn't vote for gooner because I felt the case against future was stronger.

According to that logic, your vote should still be on me. Or do you not think I'm the scummiest anymore? Because if not, I would like to hear you say why Future's is stronger than theGooner's.

[Future]

Reply to what?

[Future]

CCB, that wasn't the point. Don't misrep a deleted post.

[chernobylcitybus]

CCB, that wasn't the point. Don't misrep a deleted post.

I'm not. Don't overrep one. ^_^

[Ztife]

@BP
NL IS ANTI-TOWN.
Mislynch sounds like negative and we should prevent it, but it actually happens and is necessary/all part of the game. Lynching = chance of killing scum. NL = No chance of killing scum. (without factoring PRs, but im sure you get the basic idea)
Which comes to the point of... Knowing who is "conf scum" before you lynch? That's exactly what a scum would say, there's no way we will know a person's alignment before a flip (yeah cops and shit, but that's not the point here)
Day flips are as important as night flips. The conversations and bandwagons and shifts are what makes the dynamics of a lynch informative. If we decide on an NL scums can do whatever they want now and confuse town even more, there's no real incentive in trying to take any action or push any wagon.

Town makes mistakes and have mislynches. Its all part of the game. Towns are confident of lynches and scum hunting. Scums will NEVER be confident of a lynch, simply because mislynching makes them look scummy. Which is pretty much the exact "theory" you are talking about. Unless its a MYLO vs LYLO situation or something, in general NL is basically taking away town's main power.

Even if we get a night flip everything else turns into WIFOM D2.

I'm not gonna try and defend myself anymore. Everything's been said, I reckon, the logic to my no-lynch theory has been explained too often. I just wanna say that a no-lynch won't obviously occur, so don't be surprised if further ahead I vote for a lynch. I just think that at the time, we didn't have enough juice to get it started. And we do now.

Also, what?
If you're town why wouldn't you want to tell us more about what is going on in your mind? Why not share with us why an NL would benefit us? Why suggest and "defend" yourself about the benefits of an NL, then give up halfway and tell us you will vote for a lynch? How would you explain that your action's aren't scum motivated? What makes you think that you can get information now to be confident enough to lynch "scum"? What happened to looking at N1 kill and starting your scum hunting from there? What changed from #30 to #112?

Also, could you name your top 2 town and scum for us?

@PeregrineV's 109
How does BP looks town to you?

SCUM FOUND.

Vote:BP

[BP]

FINALLY SOMETHING TO START THE FUDGING GAME

Day flips are as important as night flips. The conversations and bandwagons and shifts are what makes the dynamics of a lynch informative. If we decide on an NL scums can do whatever they want now and confuse town even more, there's no real incentive in trying to take any action or push any wagon.

Town makes mistakes and have mislynches. Its all part of the game. Towns are confident of lynches and scum hunting. Scums will NEVER be confident of a lynch, simply because mislynching makes them look scummy. Which is pretty much the exact "theory" you are talking about. Unless its a MYLO vs LYLO situation or something, in general NL is basically taking away town's main power.

So far this is the best explanation I've read.

I'm not gonna try and defend myself anymore. Everything's been said, I reckon, the logic to my no-lynch theory has been explained too often. I just wanna say that a no-lynch won't obviously occur, so don't be surprised if further ahead I vote for a lynch. I just think that at the time, we didn't have enough juice to get it started. And we do now.

Also, what?
If you're town why wouldn't you want to tell us more about what is going on in your mind?¹ Why not share with us why an NL would benefit us?¹ Why suggest and "defend" yourself about the benefits of an NL, then give up halfway and tell us you will vote for a lynch?² How would you explain that your action's aren't scum motivated?³ What makes you think that you can get information now to be confident enough to lynch "scum"?⁴ What happened to looking at N1 kill and starting your scum hunting from there?⁴ What changed from #30 to #112?⁵

You've read the thread almost in a row. Weren't you tired of reading my same things over and over again? I thought I had explained myself loads of times, and I didn't need to fill the thread with junk even more. Now, to answer your questions:

1. I did. Multiple times. RedDragon and Slendaar kinda broke it down and it did make some sense. Your post, as I've said, was the one that kinda really got to me.
2. No one but part of thegooner agreed w/ me. No point in waving the flag around if no one's gonna come and join you. I said on post 56 I said this is not necessarily the way I roll, but you seem to know that give your question 4.
3. I gave valid reasoning, however superficial, that explains *how* I wanted to help town. It may have been kinda misguided, tho, I will admit to that much.
4. I only said I would be OK to lynch someone on post 157, which is veeery recent. My vote on Future, on post 122, is quite explained there. You can find there the info that I voted Future to get a reaction from him, rather than an actual lynch.
5. Quite frankly, everything. My NL vote got loads of reactions and kinda got the game going, I think. Plus, Grimgroove's post on Future is quite the case, and Darthe's lurking is also something that worries me. But if you think that between page 2 and 7 nothing deserved of a change has happened, well then... give the thread another read.

Also, could you name your top 2 town and scum for us?

Yes I can.

BTW, my possible town / guilty list:

TOWN: Slandaar, Grimgroove
GUILTY: Darthe, Future, Baezu

These ones haven't posted in a way as to give me a read: Elyse, chernobylcitybus, Peregrine V and thegooner.

Also: torn about Red Dragon.

You can actually take out Baezu. As I said, I have no specific alignment read off of her ATM.

[Red Dragon]

@Elyse I just feel like scum will want to nk me because I've been causing a lot of ripples in the water and making accusations.

If you are wrong they will keep you around. Controversy can be a good distraction.

catching up in progress.

Are you in every normal?

5. Quite frankly, everything. My NL vote got loads of reactions and kinda got the game going, I think. Plus, Grimgroove's post on Future is quite the case, and Darthe's lurking is also something that worries me. But if you think that between page 2 and 7 nothing deserved of a change has happened, well then... give the thread another read.

This sounds exactly like the sort of thing scum would say. "I was wrong and was trying to pull a fast one early, but it got reactions guys!!!! Also, please don't lynch me."

[BP]

Post 49. Never did I say I voted NL for other reason other than I though that was the way to go.

Anywho. Off to bed. Day off tomorra. I sincerely hope that during the next day things will develop. Cheerio!

[ac1983fan]

thegooner has been prodded.

[Darthe]

You guys need to listen to Slandaar. I am TOWN. I swear to you. The reason that I want to lynch BP is because he just seems to me to REEK of scum so why not continue to try to push for someone that I feel is scum? That is also the reason I was not willing to move my vote. But, since people obviously cannot be convinced by my words I will just have to wait for the mafia to NK me n1 to show you my role PM. Maybe there is a doctor out there who is willing to protect me because as I said before, I am TOWN. Also, when I get killed will you please vote for BP. That is my dying wish. For now, I will vote with those who are more experienced and take their word that future is indeed scum. Hopefully you guys are right.

VOTE: Future

Didn't like you until here, but this post is townie as it gets, not because of the defense but because of the tone and concern for life.

To clarify, I am willin to vote Beazu or hammer him if we can get that far. Not agreeing with him and his oddness.

What are your thoughts on Future?

My thoughts are that mafia don't needlessly expose themselves like below without a reason, but since I can't see a reason for doing this other than sincerity it appears town to me and blown out of proportion by the further posts.

FUCK I REFERRED TO AN ONGOING GAME BUT THE GIST OF IT WAS THAT I'M FUCKING TOWN BECAUSE I'VE BEEN CALLED SCUMMY FOR BEING TOO MUCH OF AN ASSHOLE AND I DECIDED TO NOT BE AN ASSHOLE HERE

See, what could be the point?

Darthe

. Post something usable, otherwise I'm just gonna assume you're lurking and lynch you because if you're not scum in hiding you're just not being helpful.

Future

. If you don't reply soon I'm gonna start asking people to lynch your ass, cuz my vote's already there.

This guy pings. Setting up lynches, rhetoric and pointed conjecture "assume you're lurking, gonna ask people to lynch" etc. Why wouldn't he already be pushing if his vote was there instead of using it with a passive attitude? It can only be to avoid being linked to heavily to a lynch.

@BP
NL IS ANTI-TOWN.
Mislynch sounds like negative and we should prevent it, but it actually happens and is necessary/all part of the game. Lynching = chance of killing scum. NL = No chance of killing scum. (without factoring PRs, but im sure you get the basic idea)
Which comes to the point of... Knowing who is "conf scum" before you lynch? That's exactly what a scum would say, there's no way we will know a person's alignment before a flip (yeah cops and shit, but that's not the point here)
Day flips are as important as night flips. The conversations and bandwagons and shifts are what makes the dynamics of a lynch informative. If we decide on an NL scums can do whatever they want now and confuse town even more, there's no real incentive in trying to take any action or push any wagon.

Town makes mistakes and have mislynches. Its all part of the game. Towns are confident of lynches and scum hunting. Scums will NEVER be confident of a lynch, simply because mislynching makes them look scummy. Which is pretty much the exact "theory" you are talking about. Unless its a MYLO vs LYLO situation or something, in general NL is basically taking away town's main power.

Even if we get a night flip everything else turns into WIFOM D2.

I'm not gonna try and defend myself anymore. Everything's been said, I reckon, the logic to my no-lynch theory has been explained too often. I just wanna say that a no-lynch won't obviously occur, so don't be surprised if further ahead I vote for a lynch. I just think that at the time, we didn't have enough juice to get it started. And we do now.

Also, what?
If you're town why wouldn't you want to tell us more about what is going on in your mind? Why not share with us why an NL would benefit us? Why suggest and "defend" yourself about the benefits of an NL, then give up halfway and tell us you will vote for a lynch? How would you explain that your action's aren't scum motivated? What makes you think that you can get information now to be confident enough to lynch "scum"? What happened to looking at N1 kill and starting your scum hunting from there? What changed from #30 to #112?

Also, could you name your top 2 town and scum for us?

@PeregrineV's 109
How does BP looks town to you?

SCUM FOUND.

Vote:BP

This was a great post and you sir have earned a town read.

@Elyse I just feel like scum will want to nk me because I've been causing a lot of ripples in the water and making accusations.

If you are wrong they will keep you around. Controversy can be a good distraction.

catching up in progress.

Are you in every normal?

5. Quite frankly, everything. My NL vote got loads of reactions and kinda got the game going, I think. Plus, Grimgroove's post on Future is quite the case, and Darthe's lurking is also something that worries me. But if you think that between page 2 and 7 nothing deserved of a change has happened, well then... give the thread another read.

This sounds exactly like the sort of thing scum would say. "I was wrong and was trying to pull a fast one early, but it got reactions guys!!!! Also, please don't lynch me."

We are still only on page seven. I don't see how you can both chastise and use my statement that I would not mind a hammer against me (I can quote this for you all if you want) on the basis that it is so early in the game and then come back and use against me that I don't think we are far enough to have a ton of reads based on the number of posts or pages. The two are in direct conflict and it looks like a backing of BP, not to mention basically the same logic.

In short,

unvote vote BP

[thegooner]

You guys need to listen to Slandaar. I am TOWN. I swear to you. The reason that I want to lynch BP is because he just seems to me to REEK of scum so why not continue to try to push for someone that I feel is scum? That is also the reason I was not willing to move my vote. But, since people obviously cannot be convinced by my words I will just have to wait for the mafia to NK me n1 to show you my role PM. Maybe there is a doctor out there who is willing to protect me because as I said before, I am TOWN. Also, when I get killed will you please vote for BP. That is my dying wish. For now, I will vote with those who are more experienced and take their word that future is indeed scum. Hopefully you guys are right.

VOTE: Future

This post has my mafia sensors blaring in my head. It's a combination of all CAPS words, frustration, and also some semi-surrendering ("I will just have to wait for the mafia to NK me n1 to show you my role PM"). In my experience, bringing up PM info to avoid being lynched is usually scummy. Also, in a 13 man game where the pool is already small, why not just shut up and die? Why fight so hard on Day 1 to not be lynched? Usually if I'm civ and getting FOS'd by people early in games, I put my head down and work twice as hard to find mafia. It does no good to overly defend early in games because that's what mafia wants. The longer a round goes with suspicion and discussions pointed towards a civ, the easier it is for mafia to hide. A civ death can be extremely helpful for civs in the long run.

VOTE: Baezu

[Grimgroove]

You guys need to listen to Slandaar. I am TOWN.

I swear to you.

The reason that I want to lynch BP is because he just seems to me to REEK of scum so why not continue to try to push for someone that I feel is scum? That is also the reason I was not willing to move my vote. But, since people obviously cannot be convinced by my words I will just have to wait for the mafia to NK me n1 to show you my role PM. Maybe there is a doctor out there who is willing to protect me because as I said before, I am TOWN. Also, when I get killed will you please vote for BP. That is my dying wish. For now, I will vote with those who are more experienced and take their word that future is indeed scum. Hopefully you guys are right.

VOTE: Future

Didn't like you until here, but this post is townie as it gets, not because of the defense but because of the tone and concern for life.

Funny how interpretations of this post are diametrical with for instance thegooner.
I find it townie. I'm not sure in how far swearing is actually allowed, and some people take it more seriously than others, but the thing in bold has got me convinced.

To clarify, I am willin to vote Beazu or hammer him if we can get that far. Not agreeing with him and his oddness.

What are your thoughts on Future?

My thoughts are that mafia don't needlessly expose themselves like below without a reason, but since I can't see a reason for doing this other than sincerity it appears town to me and blown out of proportion by the further posts.

He didn't expose himself. I forced him to expose himself. Instead of a defense we get this:

FUCK I REFERRED TO AN ONGOING GAME BUT THE GIST OF IT WAS THAT I'M FUCKING TOWN BECAUSE I'VE BEEN CALLED SCUMMY FOR BEING TOO MUCH OF AN ASSHOLE AND I DECIDED TO NOT BE AN ASSHOLE HERE

See, what could be the point?

All caps is just form. Null all the way. But what about the content? Well, the content is this: he implies the post that got edited was a very strong defense, and now that it got deleted, he doesn't seem to want to bother to actually defend himself in some other, mod-acceptable way. He just refers to meta, and about he's not wanting to be an asshole. How does him not wanting to be an asshole address any of the points that were put forward against him? How is writing in all caps and bitching not being an asshole?

Darthe

. Post something usable, otherwise I'm just gonna assume you're lurking and lynch you because if you're not scum in hiding you're just not being helpful.

Future

. If you don't reply soon I'm gonna start asking people to lynch your ass, cuz my vote's already there.

This guy pings. Setting up lynches, rhetoric and pointed conjecture "assume you're lurking, gonna ask people to lynch" etc. Why wouldn't he already be pushing if his vote was there instead of using it with a passive attitude? It can only be to avoid being linked to heavily to a lynch.

In your eyes, what has Future contributed that goes beyond lurking? What do you think of his scumhunting?
What do you mean by "using it with a passive attitude"?
I don't find this a strong ping-point at all.

@BP
NL IS ANTI-TOWN.
Mislynch sounds like negative and we should prevent it, but it actually happens and is necessary/all part of the game. Lynching = chance of killing scum. NL = No chance of killing scum. (without factoring PRs, but im sure you get the basic idea)
Which comes to the point of... Knowing who is "conf scum" before you lynch? That's exactly what a scum would say, there's no way we will know a person's alignment before a flip (yeah cops and shit, but that's not the point here)
Day flips are as important as night flips. The conversations and bandwagons and shifts are what makes the dynamics of a lynch informative. If we decide on an NL scums can do whatever they want now and confuse town even more, there's no real incentive in trying to take any action or push any wagon.

Town makes mistakes and have mislynches. Its all part of the game. Towns are confident of lynches and scum hunting. Scums will NEVER be confident of a lynch, simply because mislynching makes them look scummy. Which is pretty much the exact "theory" you are talking about. Unless its a MYLO vs LYLO situation or something, in general NL is basically taking away town's main power.

Even if we get a night flip everything else turns into WIFOM D2.

I'm not gonna try and defend myself anymore. Everything's been said, I reckon, the logic to my no-lynch theory has been explained too often. I just wanna say that a no-lynch won't obviously occur, so don't be surprised if further ahead I vote for a lynch. I just think that at the time, we didn't have enough juice to get it started. And we do now.

Also, what?
If you're town why wouldn't you want to tell us more about what is going on in your mind? Why not share with us why an NL would benefit us? Why suggest and "defend" yourself about the benefits of an NL, then give up halfway and tell us you will vote for a lynch? How would you explain that your action's aren't scum motivated? What makes you think that you can get information now to be confident enough to lynch "scum"? What happened to looking at N1 kill and starting your scum hunting from there? What changed from #30 to #112?

Also, could you name your top 2 town and scum for us?

@PeregrineV's 109
How does BP looks town to you?

SCUM FOUND.

Vote:BP

This was a great post and you sir have earned a town read.

This was a repetition of the game theory discussion that took place before, I don't see many new elements but I'm glad Ztife decided to get active.. I've only arrived on this website recently and I've already seen plenty of people defending a NL on Day 1 without being scum. And always, they are considered scummy. There's obviously a consensus on these forums that D1 No-lynches are bad, but that doesn't mean everyone has to agree with it, and that doesn't mean there are no arguments on the other side of the spectrum that make sense.
I find any conclusion based on views on game theory uncalled for, because game theory goes beyond just one game, and thus also beyond a single role PM.
Also, there's an insinuation there I don't like in the question to BP about who his main scumreads are. If you read his posts it's obvious who his main scumreads are.

@Elyse I just feel like scum will want to nk me because I've been causing a lot of ripples in the water and making accusations.

If you are wrong they will keep you around. Controversy can be a good distraction.

catching up in progress.

Are you in every normal?

5. Quite frankly, everything. My NL vote got loads of reactions and kinda got the game going, I think. Plus, Grimgroove's post on Future is quite the case, and Darthe's lurking is also something that worries me. But if you think that between page 2 and 7 nothing deserved of a change has happened, well then... give the thread another read.

This sounds exactly like the sort of thing scum would say. "I was wrong and was trying to pull a fast one early, but it got reactions guys!!!! Also, please don't lynch me."

@Red Dragon

"Pulling a fast one"? Explain.

[Grimgroove]

CCB, that wasn't the point. Don't misrep a deleted post.

I'm not. Don't overrep one. ^_^

As I understand it chernobylcitybus saw the original post, and he was obviously not impressed by it either, despite all the fuss Future is making about it.

[Ztife]

This was a repetition of the game theory discussion that took place before, I don't see many new elements but I'm glad Ztife decided to get active.. I've only arrived on this website recently and I've already seen plenty of people defending a NL on Day 1 without being scum. And always, they are considered scummy. There's obviously a consensus on these forums that D1 No-lynches are bad, but that doesn't mean everyone has to agree with it, and that doesn't mean there are no arguments on the other side of the spectrum that make sense.
I find any conclusion based on views on game theory uncalled for, because game theory goes beyond just one game, and thus also beyond a single role PM.
Also, there's an insinuation there I don't like in the question to BP about who his main scumreads are. If you read his posts it's obvious who his main scumreads are.

You have seen games where town defend/suggest NLs? Could you quote me at least 2 games so I could take a look?
Instead of telling us that there are always 2 sides to a coin, why not tell us which side you are on? Or which "side of the spectrum makes sense" to you?
If I were to find an opportunity to lynch you instead, say using a random number generator, would you agree to it? Would you think that its more likely scums would suggest such things rather than town? Because when actual "scum hunting" goes wrong, scums might look guilty. But when you suggest something obscure (and quite frankly absurd) it helps shake off that guilt to "bad luck".

D1 lynches might not exactly be ground breaking, but as per discussion it is more beneficial for town to lynch. Therefore its more beneficial for scum to suggest NL. Another key idea why BP is scummy is because of his inconsistency in his idea.

He basically "changed sides" because the side he was on makes him look bad, which is what scums fear.

So building on your statement, what of the discussion makes sense to you thus far? Which do you agree and not agree with? Surely there has to be a couple of points you have opinions on without drawing "conclusion on game theory". Would you not agree if I say that you

might

have a different view on game theory if you have a anti-town role compared to when you have an town role?

And the main point is, what exactly is your view on BP? Or does everything seems null to you? And I missed his post on the reads, what do you not like about it? I would prefer a little less ambiguity if you could.

[Grimgroove]

First of all, I don't like how you are implying that I'm being ambiguous in my reads/opinions or that I made it look as if discussions haven't made sense so far. I get the feeling you didn't actually bother reading my posts, and I will show you be replying to all of your questions by simply pointing you to posts I've already made.

About the other games, I can't discuss ongoing games, and since there's only been 1 game that ended at this point I'll point you to that one:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7&start=25

In this case numberfour defended a no lynch on Day 1 and was town.

I just go to this site and already enccountered this No lynch discussion in pretty much every game I was in. You've been here since 2009. Are you telling me you've never encountered town defending a No Lynch on day 1? I have difficulties believing that.

[Grimgroove]

Are you angry for stating you were simply rehashing what has already been said? Because apart from the scum-association you made with someone defending a No-Lynch on Day 1, there have been no new elements in your theoretical exposé.

Now to answering your waterfall of questions. So I won't be able to answer everything with post-referrals, but I'm glad to say I managed to do so for the questions where some form of bad judgement was brooding just beneath their surface.

This was a repetition of the game theory discussion that took place before, I don't see many new elements but I'm glad Ztife decided to get active.. I've only arrived on this website recently and I've already seen plenty of people defending a NL on Day 1 without being scum. And always, they are considered scummy. There's obviously a consensus on these forums that D1 No-lynches are bad, but that doesn't mean everyone has to agree with it, and that doesn't mean there are no arguments on the other side of the spectrum that make sense.
I find any conclusion based on views on game theory uncalled for, because game theory goes beyond just one game, and thus also beyond a single role PM.
Also, there's an insinuation there I don't like in the question to BP about who his main scumreads are. If you read his posts it's obvious who his main scumreads are.

You have seen games where town defend/suggest NLs? Could you quote me at least 2 games so I could take a look?

See previous post. (post 171)

Instead of telling us that there are always 2 sides to a coin, why not tell us which side you are on? Or which "side of the spectrum makes sense" to you?

I did. In posts 59 and 62 and 92.

If I were to find an opportunity to lynch you instead, say using a random number generator, would you agree to it?

No, where did I give the impression that I would?

Would you think that its more likely scums would suggest such things rather than town?

You're talking about the no-lynch I assume? I answered this question for you in post 48 and again at the end of post 89.
Or were you talking about random lynching? In this case I don't see any relevance into answering, because I've never defended random lynching, and nobody in this topic did.

Because when actual "scum hunting" goes wrong, scums might look guilty. But when you suggest something obscure (and quite frankly absurd) it helps shake off that guilt to "bad luck".

Again: when talking about No Lynching: it's not obscure. It's a stance that has certain arguments going for it that are convincing enough for some people, and not for others. It is not alignment indicative.
Random lynching is different because there are no arguments at all that are in favor for it that make any sense. You might as well just go play the lottery.

D1 lynches might not exactly be ground breaking, but as per discussion it is more beneficial for town to lynch. Therefore its more beneficial for scum to suggest NL.

Same theory rehash. Zzzzz. I agree with your theory on NL, I disagree with the last sentence, but by now I expect you've read my posts so I guess this will be clear to you (post 48 and end of 89). I'd also like to refer to my post you quotes yourself in this matter: "I find any conclusion based on views on game theory uncalled for, because game theory goes beyond just one game, and thus also beyond a single role PM." - Grimgroove

Another key idea why BP is scummy is because of his inconsistency in his idea.

He basically "changed sides" because the side he was on makes him look bad, which is what scums fear.

Because he joins in voting and pressuring it doesn't mean he'll want to see a flip at the end of this day no matter what happens. What the discussion has told me about BP: if a person is at L-1 of whom BP doesn't think he's scum, BP won't vote him just to see a flip at the end of the day, and will prefer a NL. I don't agree with this stance, but I don't think it's scummy and I don't see where BP changed sides in this matter.

So building on your statement, what of the discussion makes sense to you thus far?

All the scumhunting that went beyond game theory and this NL-business.

Which do you agree and not agree with?

Urgh, this is obvious if you read all my previous posts. Don't see how I could reply to such a vague question in any other way.

Surely there has to be a couple of points you have opinions on without drawing "conclusion on game theory".

Yes. Well, considering you like talking about game theory so much: don't you think it's important to read what people posted in a game of Mafia? I thought this was pretty basic, but obviously you disagree.

Would you not agree if I say that you

might

have a different view on game theory if you have a anti-town role compared to when you have an town role?

That question was answered in the very post you were replying to. Again, I refer to my quote: "I find any conclusion based on views on game theory uncalled for, because game theory goes beyond just one game, and thus also beyond a single role PM." -Grimgroove

And the main point is, what exactly is your view on BP? Or does everything seems null to you? And I missed his post on the reads, what do you not like about it? I would prefer a little less ambiguity if you could.

BP leans town to me (48 and 89 makes this pretty clear, and afterwards he's been one of the better scumhunters.
The second question :where did I say anything about everything seeming null to me? Not everything is null to me. I'm already quite convinced Future is scum, the way I asked questions to darthe should tell you something about how I feel about his way of thinking, and I'm not liking you very much as town either for the moment. Baezu (as stated earlier) leans town for me, as does BP.

I have no problem with BP's reads, i never said I did. I have a problem with darthe implying BP never was clear in giving out reads, while he was. Same thing as you're trying to pull of with me, come to think of it.

[Red Dragon]

Post 49. Never did I say I voted NL for other reason other than I though that was the way to go.

Anywho. Off to bed. Day off tomorra. I sincerely hope that during the next day things will develop. Cheerio!

not talking about post 49. I'm talking about the post I quoted.

[

@Red Dragon

"Pulling a fast one"? Explain.

I don't understand the question.

The two are in direct conflict and it looks like a backing of BP, not to mention basically the same logic.

Cool story, but I'm voting him.

D1 lynches might not exactly be ground breaking, but as per discussion it is more beneficial for town to lynch. Therefore its more beneficial for scum to suggest NL. Another key idea why BP is scummy is because of his inconsistency in his idea.

He basically "changed sides" because the side he was on makes him look bad, which is what scums fear.

*nods* all of a sudden he is okay with voting and everything. This is the "pulling a fast one" I was referring to (f that is the correct interpretation of the question).

In this case numberfour defended a no lynch on Day 1 and was town.

And he deserved to die for being anti-town. But this really comes up to opinion. I'm down with lynching village idiots, are you?

Again: when talking about No Lynching: it's not obscure. It's a stance that has certain arguments going for it that are convincing enough for some people, and not for others. It is not alignment indicative.

Here is the deal that I don't think you understand. NL day 1 is a horrible idea for reasons already explained (we lose a lynch, flip, chance at hitting scum, etc.). If the town nl d1 it puts the scum at a significant advantage over the town, thus it would be a good idea if scum could a achieve a no lynch d1. It makes prefect sense for scum to advocate for a nl d1 because it helps them out. So yes arguing for a no lynch is scummy, or at the very least not town.

[Red Dragon]

goddamn quote tags.