The Walking Dead Mafia! ( Game Over )

[borkjerfkin]

I almost posted that we were doing that as a joke in the signup thread after I saw there were like 389072 hydras

[borkjerfkin]

Noone should be hiding early on to allow the PRs to have their chances of being hit lowered. Since we only have two hide chances each we can't throw them away early on.

Assumes that zombie random target resolves after hide does, but yeah that sounds good.

[borkjerfkin]

@Matt: post that at the top of page 2 if you can cause I kinda guarantee that people are going to storm in here without reading shit

[borkjerfkin]

I reckon the zombie target does resolve after the hide.

It probably does yeah.

[borkjerfkin]

The odds of someone coming in here and randomly voting MattP without reading the game is pretty high right now, so having matt at L-1 right now is bad whether or not this is fabricated.

[borkjerfkin]

wish it could've lasted longer but oh well. I don't know what it says about Thor.

VOTE: desperado

[borkjerfkin]

Would you like to offer a read on me, or Matt, or anyone else now?

Matt and desperado aren't scum together

[borkjerfkin]

I see both points here. I can't see why scum would draw so much attention to themselves but I can't see why town (other than VI) would pull a stunt like this either. The motivation is rather confusing to this head.

mattp

why so itchy about multiball so early?

[borkjerfkin]

why the fuck am i not in there

[borkjerfkin]

He's done a fakeclaim in literally every game I've ever seen him play.

[borkjerfkin]

great

[borkjerfkin]

I am not itchy. I just throw up every possibility until I'm left with what's possible. Not "itching for it" but when I say could be it means just that. Could be.

~Titus

Yeah but you deliberately introduced that possibility without commenting on whether or not it is likely. Do you think it is likely?

[borkjerfkin]

With thor on this one. No way scum would risk hammering a claimed role, no matter how bullshit it was, unless it was scum on scum. So it establishes that it is either {scum, scum} or {town, town} and I see TT a shitton more likely.

~sasha

They might if it was a claimed role that was pretty demonstrably fake.

[borkjerfkin]

And yeah, this is sounding a lot like anti-town third-parties rather than a full, assembled scum team.

That's a really weird claim to make right now.

[borkjerfkin]

Yeah 'cuz you're gonna be in endgame why exactly?

~Sasha

hyperbole is a thing

[borkjerfkin]

Why? Think about it; there's already the potential of up to 2 anti-town nightkills before factions are even considered. Plus, given the flavor, it's not exactly like there's a whole lot of wiggle room for a full-blown scum team.

Which also means an anti-town third party could potentially be totally mcfucked by the roll of a dice? There's also just no precedent for what you're claiming in a large as far as I've seen.

[borkjerfkin]

Sugar Cain is town

[borkjerfkin]

I love how individual people have over 107 posts, that makes me want to really catch up

Who am I looking at? StupendousKey? who else?

[borkjerfkin]

UNVOTE:

[borkjerfkin]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Trust Fund

Why are people claiming right now? The Pitoli votes are bad, he's barely even said anything.

Matt, break this post down for me, I don't find complaining about early name claims unreasonable, and SK's vote is at least synchronized with that second sentence.

[borkjerfkin]

upon skimming Jon Doe's 405 is a weird hard pounce on SK despite having no interaction with them prior, and 426 ("I'm sure SK is scum") is out of sync with 458 (vote for SK) but I have no idea which head is doing what there

[borkjerfkin]

#329 isn't a scumslip, it's shit use of pronouns and everyone attacking everyone for misinterpreting it is dumb.

Can we break down the reasons behind the SK wagon before this devolves to mob mentality?

[borkjerfkin]

ok

Borkie is definitely town

~Sugar

Yeah. Help me out?

[borkjerfkin]

Ok I lost the point of #405 in the ISO then.

My Mara town read is my port in the storm right now.

I don't find either SK "scumslip" legit (#329 is pretty definitively not one, and #253 is just an uninteresting post) so meh.

[borkjerfkin]

plz look at that fery/nacho thing

they aren't town I do not think

Well I am in the middle of isoing your interaction with each other and you at least look town as fuck.

[borkjerfkin]

Also mollie -- I have mara town, you don't; in fact I liked 165 mainly because I've been taking to Mara a lot lately and she is extremely burned out on scum, and mentioning that here holds water to me.

[borkjerfkin]

Also mollie -- I have mara town, you don't; in fact I liked 165 mainly because I've been taking to Mara a lot lately and she is extremely burned out on scum, and mentioning that here holds water to me.

[borkjerfkin]

Also mollie -- I have mara town, you don't; in fact I liked 165 mainly because I've been taking to Mara a lot lately and she is extremely burned out on scum, and mentioning that here holds water to me.

[borkjerfkin]

I swear I never fucking do that.

He's at L-what now.

I wanna say L-2

[borkjerfkin]

I swear I never fucking do that.

He's at L-what now.

I wanna say L-2

[borkjerfkin]

Ok seriously I hit the fucking button one time

[borkjerfkin]

Ok I lost the point of #405 in the ISO then.

My Mara town read is my port in the storm right now.

I don't find either SK "scumslip" legit (#329 is pretty definitively not one, and #253 is just an uninteresting post) so meh.

yeah I am liking Mara for town.


Mara, has it been KBW posting?

What about mollie?

[borkjerfkin]

I was the mod of that game, that's not a really good question to ask me.

[borkjerfkin]

Also Mollie, I said

you

looked town. I'm still reading the nacho/ffery slot.

[borkjerfkin]

I think it is the perfect question to ask you and I am wondering why you are prevaricating.

Seriously: I'm working on it.

I did not read Xenoblade all that closely, and I sure as shit didn't on D1 when all I had time to do was post votecounts before 10 new pages popped up.

[borkjerfkin]

Yes ignore the wagon that's bound to be full of scum given the nature of the lynch to go after one of the three or so players who were saying you guys were falling into an obvious trap. That's the smart play here...

Interpreting this as a sarcastic response to Amrun, You clearly think we should be looking on the wagon, not off it, but then you go after GIF, who wasn't on it, with a point that isn't objectively very good on someone who can't respond to pressure right now.

VOTE: john doe

[borkjerfkin]

Did you somehow miss the whole vote analysis thing where it's apparent there's nothing to be gained from that wagon at this time. There wasn't one solid reason for any vote. The ISOs I looked at for those players (which was most of them) was just as fruitless. If you're going to omgus vote me, at least have to courtesy to point out what I may have overlooked to corroborate how bad I suck.

Add bork to the scum pile because instead of giving a clear counter argument, he just discredits the case all together with no work to back up that lame shit.

What is #805 then if not just subtly flinging shit at Amrun? You're basically saying Amrun is not being smart for not limiting her search to on the wagon, and then you abandon that mantra like 3 posts later despite the fact that you had a few people on the wagon that you called scum. How that translates into "there is nothing to be gained from that wagon" I have no idea. Why are you ignoring all your scumspects that were on the wagon after saying it's the right place to look?

I have no idea how OMGUS comes into it other than that's kinda what you're doing to me.

[borkjerfkin]

And it's omgus.

You seem to have no idea what this term means so whatever, boring semantic argument.

This is odd behavior for GiF. He says he aggressively WhiteKnights what he sees as bad lynches when town ~ every time. Yet, though he had the opportunity to, and plainly reads SK as town, he instead throws out a limp, no conviction hand with "how is this slot scum again?". This isn't GiF as town. Also, GiF is more involved and helpful as town than what he showed D1.

There are plenty of things wrong with it:
I don't see that he thinks KBW is town, just that he's KBW.
you're the one saying that he WKs every time rather than is just generally his playstyle.
and it looks like he's trying to clarify the slot, not defend it.

But pointing out how you so easily criticized amrun for going after who she objectively thought was scummiest rather than who was scummiest on the wagon and then you went and did the same thing yourself is the main point I was trying to make there.

@Desp: I don't have anything to go on with pitoli; let's not have another day like yesterday where nobody explains fucking anything.

[borkjerfkin]

If anything you've bolstered it with the KBW thing.

Well let's clear this up -- why is this?

[borkjerfkin]

I feel like he's trying to say "KBW exhibits VI behavior a lot, maybe you guys are kinda confusing that with scumminess"

[borkjerfkin]

Why didn't GiF WK when that's his always meta as town?

Because he wasn't trying to argue that he thought KBW was town. He was arguing that KBW does dumb crap a lot so stuff people are calling scummy is probably null.

[borkjerfkin]

he also says he WK's people regardless of how he reads them when he's town.

That's a dumb fuck thing to say, so I just did go read it and he says that "he WKs as either alignment" and that "people he WKs usually end of flipping town"

not that "he WKs people always (as town) for the fuck of it regardless of how he feels about them" Cause ??? what the fuck? That's really what you think? I don't think you think that.

[borkjerfkin]

Vote: waynegg

Bonus: Not scum with john doe; scum would have voted for the correct player.

[borkjerfkin]

@Nero - That is a really weird question. I don't really know how to answer it since the day ended so early. 'Not fully caught up' is probably more accurate. Why?

[borkjerfkin]

I think your day 1 was a little bit scummy but Mara feels like you were lost and confused. I didn't think that and wanted to see how you felt about your own play.

Ok, well there you have it.

[borkjerfkin]

Before i forget. I like the pitoli case.

[borkjerfkin]

I was saying that OMGL is scum for not considering that Jon Doe might have information NOT ABOUT THE SCUM KILL, BUT ABOUT THE VIG'S KILL. He just wanted to frame Jon Doe. That is not a townie mindset.

I echo matt's sentiment more than I agree with the actual point -- I could see someone initially making the argument OGML made, and then going back and thinking about it more and realizing the argument is not sound.

That 'going back and thinking about it more' thing didn't happen and it turned into a 'la la you scumslipped mantra'.

VOTE: ogml

@jon -- I see that GIF did in fact say you said he said. It's a dumb thing for him to have said but whatever. I don't agree with your case in GIF at all -- I think that the page he was on concerning the SK wagon is a really genuine page to have been on at that time of day, and I just think you're applying a blanket to a situation that really just doesn't work here.

@mollie -- I looked at sangres slot; 353 and 376 rub me wrong, especially considering that the unexplained SK vote preceded it by a lot, and just that it seems to kinda skirt around the more important part of voting for scum and lynching them and shit. I don't know how to explain the point I'm trying to make here very well.

p-edit
@amrun - basically jon talked about trust fund's death implying that it was the scum kill; jon later justified this with flavor hints (which is wrong in this case, but plausible)
ogml came back and said jon was scum for slipping cause the only way he'd know trust fund was the scum kill is if his team had done it. DGB pointed out that the hole here is that jon could be a vig who shot majiffy but OGML has been adamant at pushing this as a scumslip.

But people are ignoring that Dan is probably right and it's Majiffy who was likely killed by scum -- I just think jon looked for flavor hints where there weren't any.

[borkjerfkin]

Oh wait, they said trust fund was a scum kill?

That makes no fucking sense.

Lol sorry DGB

VOTE: jon doe

I feel like this is an argument for jon doe being town

[borkjerfkin]

cause if he thought trust fund was the kill (and said he did cause of flavor)

that would imply he didn't know that he was wrong.

[borkjerfkin]

Both are fine. Pitoli is more useful

I disagree at this point - OGML has said things about more of the slots in the game than pitoli has and I think people generally have stronger opinions about OGML's alignment than they do pitoli's (I don't recall seeing a single person calling pitoli town yet, for example). I think that makes OGML more useful.

I had pretty strong reasons for Sugar Cain town D1 and I want to bring those to the table when I get a chance.

[borkjerfkin]

Following up:

I had Sugar cain as town for:

oh fuck, I slipped :/

and

this game is fast enough without Wayne's shit

though, I wouldn't really mind KBW either >.>

yes we are town Amrun, you don't know how pumped I am to actually be town after so many scumdrawings

~Sugar

I know for a fact Mara was burned out on scum games. I don't see any reason to have posted this other than genuine elation at having not drawn scum. Otherwise you have to believe that this was a trap for people like me who knows she feels this way and I just don't see that being likely at all. 688 also struck me as really town.

As for Thor, I feel like when I've seen Thor scum in the past (I was in a newbie with him where he was scum briefly, a long time ago, and there was a mini where we were doing the 'creeper club' where he was scum) he has pretty much gone out of his way to discredit his detractors / just generally be confrontational with people attacking him instead of actually trying to work stuff out / compromise.

I see absolutely no hint of that here. This looks more like Open 465 where I was scum and he was town and he was being reasonable.

[borkjerfkin]

People I am comfortable calling town right now:

mattp
thor
actiondan
sugar cain
nbh
desperado
titus
amrun
toogeloo

last two are because we've got plenty of people emphatically asserting they are town.

[borkjerfkin]

mattp

[borkjerfkin]

Or are you asking "how town do I think matt is?"

[borkjerfkin]

that is horrifying

[borkjerfkin]

As far as your clear for Sugar - I mean,

i was specifically done as a response to a question of if they were scum or not.

I'm not sure I buy that they wouldn't consider how to play that as a town response...why do you see that as so unlikely?

I think I was ignoring the underlined, and you have a point; it'd be a much better tell if it were unsolicited. I'll reread the slot.

[borkjerfkin]

Lets just pretend that TF is a vig kill, how does that make Titus less likely to be scum?

Cause he was NK analyzing the TF kill as if it were a known thing that TF was the scum kill. It looked organic to me, which would indicate he didn't know it wasn't.

[borkjerfkin]

OGML was actually the one who slipped.

I don't think OGML slipped; in fact I think (as several of us have said) that TF isn't even the mafia NK.

But OGML saw blood in the water and tried to nail JD to the wall for it without considering other reasons JD may have had to say it. The ultimate truth about who was actually what kill (fuck, chesskid could be a vig and majiffy and TF could both be zombie kills for all we know, however unlikely that is) isn't as important.

[borkjerfkin]

I kinda feel like a cockbag

VOTE: titus

[borkjerfkin]

borkjerfkin is a strong candidate for scum too, in the (likely) event I'm wrong about at least one of my other reads. I don't really find Pitoli scummy anymore.

no

[borkjerfkin]

Don't vig me.

Thanks.

[borkjerfkin]

I have no fucking idea what is going on

[borkjerfkin]

1749 is a bad post

I don't know what's going on still and I assume that is not going to change this game day, yeah?

p-edit: I feel like the best move for a town redirector is to do fuckall on N1.

[borkjerfkin]

I kinda do wanna just to see what happens

I kinda don't wanna just to partially feel like I'm not just being a fucking lemming and the claim and whatnot

[borkjerfkin]

@Borkjerfkin, OMGL claimed vig. Brains is still tunnelling OMGL. ActionDan and I were trying to figure out why.

Yeah dude I got that part thanks

[borkjerfkin]

UNVOTE:

[borkjerfkin]

rad

VOTE: ogml

[borkjerfkin]

so titus is town again yeah?

[borkjerfkin]

Chew that one over for a minute while you realize it means

Jon Doe

, Sangres and probably Sugar Cain are all scum, and I'm pretty sure I got my Mastin2 read right as well.

How many scum are in here? Probably not 0?

[borkjerfkin]

[borkjerfkin]

UNVOTE:

[borkjerfkin]

@MOD: does ANY kill AT ALL have any flavor relevance?

[borkjerfkin]

That doesn't fucking mean anything, there is nothing that says Zombie kill = I will specifically state they were killed by zombies

[borkjerfkin]

That doesn't fucking mean anything, there is nothing that says Zombie kill = I will specifically state they were killed by zombies

VENMAR JUST FUCKING TOLD ME IN PM IN RESPONSE TO MY QUESTION THAT THE FLAVOR IN THE SPECIFIC LINE OF THE KILL FLAVOR REFLECTS HOW A PLAYER WAS KILLED. IF A PLAYER HAD THEIR THROAT RIPPED BY A WALKER THEN, THAT MEANS THEY WERE KILLED MY ZOMBIES. IF A PLAYER WAS SNIPED THEY WERE KILLED BY VIG OR MAFIA

THAT'S GREAT HE CAN TELL EVERYONE NOW YEAH? COOL

[borkjerfkin]

oh right, you're doing your fucking thing again

[borkjerfkin]

So we done with this yet or?

[borkjerfkin]

It's only a matter of time mollie

[borkjerfkin]

Matt's just being matt

[borkjerfkin]

Ok really on the off chance you're not fucking around:

NBH never mentioned the "horde". They don't control the horde or interact with the horde or fucking anything. Their vig flavor kill is just to send zombies. The end.

This is confusing people and I don't care if you're reaction testing at this point; it is not helping.

[borkjerfkin]

Except that last kill wasn't zombie induced so it's not the zombie thing, it's a legit vig/sk.

I think NBH is almost certainly town, but I'm not convinced that OGML isn't also town.

[borkjerfkin]

fuck off matt.

[borkjerfkin]

Well so now it's ESPECIALLY guaranteed I'm town since I had no idea about this function. Scum definitely also have the zombie controlling power. We should see who had genuine confusion about the zombie controlling besides me

I'll be awaiting your apology when you're done ISOing me.

[borkjerfkin]

VOTE: amrun

[borkjerfkin]

tell me what you think of this: merle is the traitor and if you look at the timing of ogml's role claim really made no sense at the time but it does make sense and is great play from a traitor perspective. titus was town telling all over the place, she was bleeding town and the lynch was probably going to dissipate and scum knew that. <------ we should look at who was the up for the next lynch lead. what do you think is the number 1 thing on scum'd mind; "who's the vig who's the vig ARRRRRRGHHHH!!!". so a good traitor would want to take care of that threat immediately, wouldn't you agree? so ogml actions makes sense from a traitor POV and merle fits the flavour as a traitor (even though he did redeem himself at some point).

Except that there is an extra NK you have to account for in this case. If chesskid kill was really controlled by you, then you have to believe that if OGML is not town, that he is an SK. I've never seen a traitor with an extra kill before.

It's more likely you're both town.

[borkjerfkin]

What did he lie about?

[borkjerfkin]

what he did makes perfect sense as a traitor, get the vig outed so that scum do not have to face them during the night round. you should know about traitor play from your posh experience.

Yeah I get this, he's the best scum to take that kind of fall if he's a traitor, but last night you (or at least DGB) was all occam's razor n shit. What happened?

[borkjerfkin]

he lied about being the vig cos he isn't. we are directly ccing him, we are claiming the chesskid nk and I don't see sk ogml being so threatened by tf (who had a ton of suspicion on them) as nk them on n1 when there are much juicier choices. do you?

He said he killed Majiffy.

[borkjerfkin]

the reality of it is that: you are claiming responsibility for one of the three kills: the zombie related kill.

There were two other non-zombie related kills. It is reasonable to assume scum made one of them. Who made the other, then, if not OGML?

[borkjerfkin]

mollie it is really fucking frustrating to play with you sometimes.

So there's another SK that is just out there that isn't OGML? I'm trying to figure out what exactly you think is going on with the number of kills we had.

[borkjerfkin]

the flavour a rifle shot since that is what the govner and his men used.

Venmar already said that flavor of kill outside zombies doesn't mean anything.

[borkjerfkin]

where did I say that there was another SK?

1 SK kill
1 Scum kill
1 town kill <---- we are claiming this.

I am fairly certain that I made this clear. are you still somehow confused about this?

This is a fucking comical communication breakdown.

Let's step back.

You are saying you killed chesskid. Rad.
Scum killed <someone>
There was a third kill.
You are saying OGML is a traitor.

Are we on the same page?

[borkjerfkin]

VOTE: elli

[borkjerfkin]

I want to lynch titus less than ever.

[borkjerfkin]

Am I the only person who caught what this vote was about?

I saw no logic in it and dismissed it as flail.

I didn't see it as flail, given who posted it.

Would not have picked up on that myself but that's pretty compelling

[borkjerfkin]

But if everyone is going to pussy out, Metal Sonic is a better lynch than Elli which I would gladly get on board.

Is this just cause of the PR claim or something else?

[borkjerfkin]

I think elli as scum would have self hammered, can anyone back that up or destroy it with meta?

Why make that assertion if you have no idea if it's true? Have you seen it before?

[borkjerfkin]

this is a game that I should post in

[borkjerfkin]

oh that was it

[borkjerfkin]

no

i am just demotivated as fuck

sorry

[borkjerfkin]

I'll do my best to pick it up tomorrow. If I can't do that I will replace out. I'm done joining larges.

[borkjerfkin]

Because the long day length is doing nothing but breeding apathy at this point

[borkjerfkin]

Why are you demotivated?

I think I'm probably just getting bored with mafia. Like I said, if it continues I will replace out.

[borkjerfkin]

I'm actually rather surprised to be alive at this point given OMGL's FoS of me yesterday. I doubt many would have healed me due to claiming VT and the information my flip would have gathered.

This doesn't hold water.
There were two non-zombie kills N1. OGML claimed one of them - you are suggesting he straight up lied and someone else did it? Who might that be? Why didn't they CC OGML?

If OGML really did try to kill you I want to know and it points to likely Titus-scum.

p-edit: There's nothing that indicates that all normal killing actions were suspended last night

[borkjerfkin]

OMGL not shooting me makes me suspicious he is not the vig because the vig would shoot me if he had suspicion.

yeah great. Who is the vig then and why did they not CC/shoot OGML? Also this ignores the obvious possibility that OGML was interfered with either on the sending or receiving end of that kill.

[borkjerfkin]

vote: nbh

[borkjerfkin]

What

[borkjerfkin]

Ajs flip

[borkjerfkin]

Amrun did too, that is 2 already. I think it is also rrasonable that scum can do so too.

[borkjerfkin]

I think your vote is lazy and lacks conviction. Why don't you join the Metal wagon with me?

That is a fucking weird thing to say.

[borkjerfkin]

So?

[borkjerfkin]

Where do you infer that nero

[borkjerfkin]

I think your vote is lazy and lacks conviction. Why don't you join the Metal wagon with me?

That is a fucking weird thing to say.

What's weird about it?

I cant tell what point you are making

[borkjerfkin]

My point is that your thought process seems to be doesn't seem to have progressed beyond "Aj flipped Herder and NBH claimed Herder" even though a) it's reasonable to assume multiple Herders exist and b) Aj, the other person with the Herder role PM, confirmed that assumption.

It's reasonable to assume multiple herders exist, yeah, but we just got TWO town roles flipped that interact with zombies (I don't see how a baiter could be anything but). Why does this third role have to be town?

MS hasn't come close to interacting with fuckall. Which is incredibly like him. I understand you need to remove players like that; I just have no confidence in which way he is going to flip right now.

[borkjerfkin]

It doesn't have to be, but you've had NBH as town for quite some time and basing an abrupt change in read on something you admit doesn't necessarily implicate someone is lazy.

When "don't be lazy" appears in my wincon, I'll put stock into how fucking lazy I appear to people. I care about being correct, not how much work I put into getting there. I know it doesn't necessarily implicate them, but I am trying to play the numbers here and I am asserting it is unlikely for us to have three roles, two of which are identical, that control the herd.

If you really want to argue that MS doesn't get habitually mislynched, well, you're wrong. I don't know how to explain how I feel about him this game - it's entirely possible you're right about him but I don't know that I can really discern distancing from just not giving a fuck in general, especially replacing in as he did.

[borkjerfkin]

When "don't be lazy" appears in my wincon, I'll put stock into how fucking lazy I appear to people. I care about being correct, not how much work I put into getting there. I know it doesn't necessarily implicate them, but I am trying to play the numbers here and I am asserting it is unlikely for us to have three roles, two of which are identical, that control the herd.

Why? Aj didn't.

Have you considered the possibility that all/most all of the PRs interact with the zombie mechanic?

AJ's townflip does not necessitate him knowing everything about the setup.

We have flips on both sides that do not interact with the mechanic.

[borkjerfkin]

Matt has claimed a lot of things this game, but if he were something would you assert that he and nbh were both town?

At how many roles that control the horde do you start to go "hmm maybe one of these is not legitimate?"

I'll bbl

[borkjerfkin]

only he isn't cos we suspected that there was more to the town herder role than what was presented and the fact that aj had us as a strong town read should really speak VOLUMES.

Ok mollie: why do you think there is more to the role than what was presented?

And I am to believe that there are two of them on the town team
And a baiter, whatever that does relative to the horde
and OGML - how does he fit into this for you? A legit vig or what because you've been talking about SKs before and we never ended in a spot where I knew what you were talking about.

I am having trouble seeing all of you on the same team. So if you're town: clear that up for me to the best of your ability. I am town, ergo your gut has fucked up.

You wanna fix this relationship? Clue me in.

[borkjerfkin]

Thor665, Desperado, Toogeloo, borkjerfkin, PeregrineV, RedCoyote, Aj The Epic, Titus, No Brains Here, TheIrishPope[formerly GIF]

You also need to look here

Because the elli lynch went through at a rate slow enough that scum had plenty of time to settle in and bus

[borkjerfkin]

I'm going back to metal sonic

@Desp: Look at the point where he says elli is a scum read: 2929 That was like RIGHT before elli was lynched. Why is MS more likely scum for NOT voting there than bussing there when the lynch was all but an inevitability?

[borkjerfkin]

not really. you were a strong town read on d1 but it never hit my gut, it only hit my head. I know what you are capable of and this looks like scum borky play. you trying to "fix" this relationship while indulging in abysmal logic might not be a scumtell in general but I would say it is a relative tell for you cos you are usually much smarter than this. this much like your play in posh but especially the greatest idea micro we played. and your used carsalesman routine of trying to smooth things over after sticking your head in the sand and ignoring details that should be obvious is not going to work on me.

Can you cut the bullshit and answer what I asked you?

[borkjerfkin]

What am I capable of mollie?
How is my logical abysmal?
How might I be smarter than this?
What details am I ignoring?

Surprise! You got acerbic town bork! whoooooooooops

[borkjerfkin]

You didn't answer shit:

Ok mollie: why do you think there is more to the role than what was presented?

And I am to believe that there are two of them on the town team
And a baiter, whatever that does relative to the horde
and OGML - how does he fit into this for you? A legit vig or what because you've been talking about SKs before and we never ended in a spot where I knew what you were talking about.

I am having trouble seeing all of you on the same team. So if you're town: clear that up for me to the best of your ability.

what did you answer here

[borkjerfkin]

you seriously still think OGML is an SK

cause I don't.

and no I fucking didn't - I asked you for clarification several times and you were like 'hurr durr why aren't you getting the thing I was really vague and unclear about'

but tell me more how I'm scum for wanting clarification on shit. I hear that's pretty scummy.

jesus fucking christ.

[borkjerfkin]

Here's a fun exercise:

go to NBH's iso, start with 1963, ctrl + f "OGML", and just look at all the context that is treating OGML like a vig and not an sk

or is it just DGB who thinks that or what?

[borkjerfkin]

but you were totally clear

[borkjerfkin]

Supposing without agreeing that your theory is right, you'd want to look at people who got on after the lynch was inevitable. Where do you draw that line?

Arguing against your theory in the alternative, when could the scum have gotten on without looking suspicious? Wouldn't it be better to hope the train fails?

You're mixing two different arguments:

1) Scum assuredly bussed (somewhere, especially with 4 scum alive). Look at the whole wagon.

2) As for MS: if scum: he had a direct route to towncred by voting elli at that point where he called elli scummy. There is scum motivation to have voted elli there. Desperado is arguing that it was scummy for him to NOT vote elli there and I want to know why he thinks that.

(let's not lynch titus though this is legitimate fact finding imo)

[borkjerfkin]

1) Do you think scum bussed earlier or later or do you have no clue?

2) Yeah scum can be pressured, I'm not sure how making this MS specific is relevant.

3) I'd still say that one of the scums likely avoided the Elli wagon and was on the Stupendous Wagon.

1) I don't know and the answer might be 'both'. I had an operating theory rereading last night and that got shot to shit when the day started.
2) Not sure exactly what you mean but ok. I have a question out to desperado and I want to know what he's getting at with the argument that "MS is scummy for NOT bussing elli when he called him scummy at that point in the day"
3) You are assuredly correct there too.

[borkjerfkin]

Mastin, Mattp, Sangres, OMGL, and Sugar Cain

Those?

Mastin or Matt at this point; mastin's continued push on Dan with pretty much zero regard for the gamestate is bad and matt is just I dunno - everything he did in Posh seemed to actually have a point to it; here he's flighty and just kinda throwing shit at the wall and seeing what happens and then making snap judgments about it and then moving onto something else and not coming back to those previous things.

Not OGML, Sangres is seeming better than they did D1, and other than a stale gut town read on Sugar Cain I can't really figure them out anymore.

[borkjerfkin]

That lynch took a long time, and MS ignored it until the very end where he fosed him but still didn't vote.

And my question remains: would he have been less scummy if he would have voted there?

[borkjerfkin]

tl;dr Desperado = confbias/tunneller/scumtunneler

would you honestly be saying that if he were tunneling someone that wasn't you?

[borkjerfkin]

Yes.

Ok. I don't agree considering the inevitability of the lynch at the point where he made that post. I do agree he's being a waste of a slot and am not defending him even if he is asserting that I am.

I don't know and I have no way of acquiring enough information to know. You had NBH as strong town--was it really just their claim?

I forgot to answer this yesterday -- at the time I voted, yes; since: 1) NBH immediately OMGUSed me today despite the fact that I'm the least lynchable of her new scumspects and 2) the slot can't keep their thoughts about OGML straight but mollie decided she doesn't want to talk to me about that I guess?). But here is what I think I know:

Town had 1 herder and 1 'baiter' for sure.
OGML can kill people separate from the scum team kill. <- if people are disputing this (I am talking about the kill coming from elsewhere than OGML, not that he might be an SK which I acknowledge), I want to hear alternate theories. I do not see an SK in a game with 1+ non player controlled kills every night, this is pure conjecture but I think it's likely I am correct.
We have 2 scum flips, neither of whom had zombie controlling powers.

Given all that info, I think it is reasonable to conjecture that there is 1+ person on the scum team that can influence the horde. I think it is a bit less likely that town have at least three.

[borkjerfkin]

People worth looking at:

mastin - only exists in the microcosm of "guys ActionDan is scum" and I've seen town mastin numerous times and he does not roll like that
matt - Huge RL related fade makes this hard but I talked about him a few posts ago
Metal Sonic - I need more from him before I feel I can responsibly call him either or
TIP - TIP!town tends to leave a large footprint in games and make a ton of noise. He is not doing that here. That's all I really have on him.
Thor - re: vs Sugar Cain: I think at this point it is bugging me because Thor is just tunneltunneltunnel often at the expense of other things going on whereas Sugar Cain is reevaluating based on a flip which I like. If this is TvS I'm siding with Sugar Cain as the T.

Who fucking knows:

RC - I didn't read his wall even a bit.

Town right now would be

:
you
titus
actiondan
ogml (but sortable later)
sangres?
Sugar cain?

I think the responsible thing to do with NBH is to table it until we get more flips as their scum viability is contingent on game balance.
VOTE: mastin

[borkjerfkin]

a lot of this was covered by different people on d2, I think it was nero who pointed out that scum probably had a scum herder.

where your logic becomes abysmal is when you say things like we are the scum herder and you keep your vote on us and that oh oh oh ogml is defo not the sk!!!!

like it is really bad.

I've given plenty of reasons why I feel the way I feel and you can go ahead and

assert

that the logic is bad all you want; that does not make it so. If you're town you have every reason to show me where I am going wrong, but it really seems like you're intent on smearing me right now instead. Go read posh and GoW and then say with a straight face that this is my scum game.

@RC: If they are a scum herder they are "<Bad guy x - scum herder> with a fakeclaim of <michonne - town herder>". That is how fakeclaims work. And just because AJ flipped town herder should not in any way clue him in to how many herders or whatever else that town has. I don't get your point about AJ - just because we know he was honest does not mean we know he was right.

I'll read the MS/Pitoli stuff.

[borkjerfkin]

Also, bork, Elli's lack of a fakeclaim, what do you say to that?

I'll admit I don't know the flavor from my ass, but weren't people saying Milton was considered a sympathetic-esque character? Like whoever got 'the governor' - do you think that person does not have a fake claim of somebody else?

Look at my Xenoblade game - Meyneth was a scum role that I did not give a fakeclaim name for because she was canonically sympathetic. I also left a major main character (Sharla) as a fakeclaim. This stuff happens all the time.

[borkjerfkin]

Likely the Role PM suggested the possibility of multiple players that could herd the Zombies.

I think that's a given with the mechanic we have (I think it is alluded to on the first page even); do you think it really says anything about the alignment thereof? Cause I bet it doesn't.

[borkjerfkin]

These factors may or may not come from certain players that will have special, unique, and new roles that will specifically interact with the mechanic to try and use it to their advantage. A mechanic that may look random may not be so random after all.

[borkjerfkin]

It makes PERFECT sense for chesskid to do it. Why WOULDN'T he? "...Because it's too obvious?" CHESSKID. CHESS. FREAKIN'. KID. And you think it's too obvious? Let me laugh for a bit. If anything, him doing so makes it MORE likely that Dan's scum, not less. Heck, aren't those three the Princeton Power team? All three having known close ties together? AT BEST, him calling out two friends to hammer would be null. AT ABSOLUTE BEST. The fact that Elli and chesskid were scum helps reinforce why it's far, FAR more probable that he did so with his scumbuddy, ActionDan.

It's total WIFOM and I think Chesskid is competent enough to have thought about this too.

On the other hand, the immediate "WRECKED" from AD on chesskid's death is probably not something he'd have thought to do as scum.

[borkjerfkin]

Mastin, NBH, Matty, and Aj are all terribad reads, and that scum-reading any of them, even for a second is strange.

I honestly how anyone can even think of having a scum-read on any of them. Unsure maybe, but Scum-reading them?

I never said your read on Elli was bad, but that doesn't mean your other reads weren't and,

I even stated that I am willing to re-think my stance on you so, why even ask why I was scum reading you?

Italicized: I find the "your reads were different from mine" reason contributing to scumreading a slot dishonest. Show us the scum motivation there, otherwise town should at least entertain the idea of that person being just wrong, but you've been just using it as ammo.

Underlined is one of the more blatant attempts at appeasement I've seen. You don't get to sweep someone's line of questioning under the rug just because

you

say you've changed your mind about

them

.

Switch my Sugar-Thor stance around.

[borkjerfkin]

Why is it scummy for Mara to "not consider Thor wrong"

but its ok and townie? for RC to not consider Mara/us wrong?

Don't put words in my mouth; I very obviously never even mentioned the underlined. Go ahead and quote what you are talking about.

What exactly is Mara sweeping under the rug?

Why is thor not entitled to an explanation of a read at a previous time just because the read has changed after the fact?

[borkjerfkin]

yes.

[borkjerfkin]

@nero: I don't like your tone right now; you're either trying to put words in my mouth again or bait me in some other way. Does my answer there necessitate my having a scum read on him for it? No it does not. Why ask that leading question?

He posts one liners and reacts defensively to shit. Great. The actual answer is: that is not enough information to determine a read. It is loose playstyle meta and by and large I don't consider that a reliable tell, especially considering you're not considering 1) a larger sample size or 2) what his town games look like or 3) other logistical things that make this game different from that one.

For example, can you differentiate the play there from =21370]this game?

If so, how?

[borkjerfkin]

Then I misinterpreted your tone.

I need to go to bed.

[borkjerfkin]

I found, what looks like to me, a contradiction and am therefore questioning you about it. Though I did assume that you had a town read on RC, is that incorrect?

Not 5 pages ago (probably less) you can see my null read on RC. It doesn't even matter though because the fact that I didn't comment on RC -> you interaction imparts a high probability that I didn't see it (I didn't), and you cannot claim I am contradicting myself when I have never once remarked on it at all; this is dishonest. The town thing to do there is to ask me about it objectively instead of claiming that I've given an opinion on it that I have not.

not in the slightest, I'm wondering why he's bringing up us scum-reading him when I'm currently putting that to the side. I'm asking him why he is asking a question with no current relevance to how I see him now, and a question that isn't really going to be productive in scum-hunting. It's forcing me to talk about a has-been read on him over a current read.

People are entitled to explanations for reads at earlier points in the game, even if you have asserted that you have changed it since.

This is done for the reason of reading the person who made the read. I feel like this should be self-evident.

and the scum motivation for pushing people who are obviously playing anti-town? especially early on in the game, as well as people who havn't posted a whole lot and aren't entirely active?

because, going for an easy lynch is a major motivation. Harping on the things Thor was harping on is an easy way to look like you are scum-hunting when you aren't in reality, it's a real easy way to look town which is why I'm wary of people when they push bad lynches

and sure enough, the ones he advocated the most were anti-town reads over actually scummy actions. He still hasn't really explained what anything any of those people did were scummy, and he still didn't explain his read on Mastin and Aj

This is treacherously close to a completely semantic argument; where do you draw the line between 'anti-town' and 'scummy' and how was thor clearly in the former camp? Back up what you're saying. Is not explaining reads tantamount to voting them for 'being anti-town but not scum?" otherwise I don't see how this ties in to the comment I made.

and, I kinda lost my town-read on you based on your over-interaction with Nero. I don't see how you could have saw post 3140 as anything other than a question, it almost feels like you have something to hide.

...really now.

Let's go over that sequence again:

3138: Nero posts an entirely unsolicited request to have me look at TIP's scum game (ergo it is apparent to me he is scumreading TIP). I think it does look similar in posting style to this game and say so.
3140: Nero injects meaning into that by asking me a leading question about what I think about TIP for it. Say whatever you want, but 3139 did not say "yes, and he's probably scum here too".

Now it's possible he honestly improperly inferred that, but the leading question combined with the lack of an opinion of his own about the similarity between that game and this one had me do a double take. As I am reading now, he also did not follow up on the town game of TIP's I linked; meta is more powerful when you look at 1) more games and 2) both alignments so if he's honestly trying to figure that out and not pushing an agenda then he should have no problem diving into that.

But no I'm sure I "have something to hide." What now, might that be that you're diving from what I said in my interaction with Nero? Go ahead and point to the nugget of truth in the big ball of mud you just flung at me.

Thor: you'll have a sheep in me at some point. mastin is still where I want to be right now.

[borkjerfkin]

TIP and AD both defending Elli reinforces them being scum, by the way.

Is there a reason you're ignoring me?

Where is your head at right now?

[borkjerfkin]

@Sugar: to avoid of a wall war I will keep this brief:

1) your conclusion that I am hiding something does not follow from my suspicion of Nero's tone, which I believe I was very clear on, and I resent the accusation. I DID feel like I was being interrogated and I don't know what else to say about it.
2) I don't agree that what thor was asking you was detracting from any scumhunting, but I want to hear Thor's response to your assertion that he did not display any scum motivation in any of the reads he gave. Your clarification was helpful.
3) You're one of the only active posters right now -- it's easy to engage you and I didn't like your push on thor and I REALLY don't like your soft suspicion of me. I still want to be on mastin - after all of this I still have a better feeling about his flip.

Sugar and bork you two are breaking my heart.

Talk to me. How can I break your heart less? Metal Sonic is poison and I am not going to fight that lynch, but I am really trying to figure other shit out.

Titus is REALLY TOWN for the night action speculation stuff.

[borkjerfkin]

I (fferyllt) find that it's not a definitive tell, but it warrants a replacement getting more scrutiny than they otherwise might.

I think this tell generates a ton of false positives.

[borkjerfkin]

UNVOTE:

Think it's about time for a reset.

[borkjerfkin]

I'm cooling off on Sugar Cain I think.

[borkjerfkin]

VOTE: ms

Stalled game is stalled

[borkjerfkin]

anyone that is scumreading me at this point in the game is fucking terrible

[borkjerfkin]

That is incredibly optimistic of you. I dig that.

[borkjerfkin]

I am rereading the elli wagon because I think that wagon had enough time to distill to get >1 scum on it. I actually thought it was toogeloo hardbussing which I am kicking myself about now.

I also want to investigate reasons that people avoided the stupendouskey wagon on D1 but I have not gotten around to that yet.

[borkjerfkin]

It is a plan of action to get me back in the game.

You are so fucking derisive this game.

[borkjerfkin]

No, it's not out of line to ask me about it

the stupendouskey wagon was a stupendously stupid lynch on easy prey you should have been looking at that on d2 like everybody else was.

This looked tantamount to "why are you being shitty"

[borkjerfkin]

I don't think I can.

I consistently do not want to deal with this game I think the best decision for me is to replace out. Which I really fucking hate to do but I think it's irresponsible of me to remain in this game and tread water.

So, consider this a replacement request

and I apologize to the rest of the town and to Venmar.

[borkjerfkin]

hi if you could not post my utterly ineffective night actions that would be rad

bye