Death's Diner -Game Over-

[Slandaar]

Who is defending him without reason?

[Amrun]

Who is defending him without reason?

Me, I think -- because saying I think he's town and can't possibly be scum with bro is "without reason," apparently.


Rift Adrift:

Why do you think that's how Broseidon would have handled the "crumb" had he been town? I noticed the crumb, didn't know what it meant, but I found it really weird that he appealed to you specifically, as if he wanted a strong player to whiteknight for him.

Four other players knew he was in the dethy. Why would he be more likely to flail and crumb as town than as scum? That doesn't make sense.

Also your excuse for him lurking, that he's a cop of some sort, is RIDICULOUSLY bad. Other people already know he's in a dethy! Probably scum already knew, if he's not scum himself! What do you think lurking was going to accomplish? Wtf.

In short, I found that whole thing silly and pretty manipulative.

[Rift Adrift]

Who is defending him without reason?

Me, I think -- because saying I think he's town and can't possibly be scum with bro is "without reason," apparently.


Rift Adrift:

Why do you think that's how Broseidon would have handled the "crumb" had he been town? I noticed the crumb, didn't know what it meant, but I found it really weird that he appealed to you specifically, as if he wanted a strong player to whiteknight for him.

Syr may also want to tackle answering this because it wasn't Rift that BRO appealed to, it was Syr. I don't think it had to do with wanting a strong player. I think it had to do with wanting a player who would understand the parallels he was seeing with the jobpick game.

Four other players knew he was in the dethy. Why would he be more likely to flail and crumb as town than as scum? That doesn't make sense.

If he's town and the dethy interactions have gone toxic or paranoid then doing something about the situation would be paramount. I don't understand why flail conspicuously and crumb it vs just outing it, though. Scum would already know about the dethy due to confirmation-period QT even if there is no day chat in this game. No day chat is something Syr doubts due to having played played at least one other game that 4nxiety modded.

Also your excuse for him lurking, that he's a cop of some sort, is RIDICULOUSLY bad. Other people already know he's in a dethy! Probably scum already knew, if he's not scum himself! What do you think lurking was going to accomplish? Wtf.

Scum probably already knowing is a good point. This is my first game with a dethy so I'm not really sure how to imagine dethy players should play in-thread.

In short, I found that whole thing silly and pretty manipulative.

For me, the emphasis is on silly, and I'm leaning on Syr's prior experience with BRO to sort him. Before the dethy-related stuff, I had him as town based on his early day 1 play and on his sticking up for them when his town reads (and as it turns out some dethy mates) come under fire. I might have flipped that read if he hadn't made a direct appeal to Syr via me, though. That to me screamed PR in distress.

[Amrun]

I think it had to do with wanting a player who would understand the parallels he was seeing with the jobpick game.

I just don't understand why this is compelling. A player that can recognize the parallels could easily have purposely created them himself.

[Titus]

@Slandaar, Amrun's right. He's the typical example of a Zoidberg defense without a reason. The other is AJ. He's scummy but I won't help turn the train rationale.

Amrun meanwhile has presented no evidence for his rationale that Bro and Zoidberg couldn't be scum together. He just says Bro is scum therefore Zoidberg cannot be. He has no independent read of Zoidberg which should register as fishy. He doesn't want to say Zoidberg is town for fear of being associated with that. Thus, this is a defense without a reason.

[Amrun]

Dude, you're so fucking ridiculous.

I've said I think Zoidberg is town like 2o3u4o3u42o3iu423u42po3iu times.

ZOIDBERG. IS. TOWN. HIS READS ARE GOOD. HIS CASES ARE GOOD. HE IS TOWN.

Go on ignoring everything fucking posted and having your head up your own ass. Jesus fuck.

[Rift Adrift]

I think it had to do with wanting a player who would understand the parallels he was seeing with the jobpick game.

I just don't understand why this is compelling. A player that can recognize the parallels could easily have purposely created them himself.

It's a type of gambit I haven't seen BRO attempt in other games we've played. You, Syr and I basically read those posts from three different perspectives. My reaction was PR in distress, and I got a little pissed at the amount of attention his flail was drawing and the fact that nobody else apparently was seeing it as PR flail. Syr got the subtext and read the crumbs accurately. And you saw it as scum flail.

Syr is correct about the crumbs and the subtext.

And you and I, being self-assured about our own reads (not to mention stubborn about them) disagree about the nature of the flail.

[Slandaar]

That is a lot of times Amrun! Could you link me to all of them?!

@Slandaar, Amrun's right. He's the typical example of a Zoidberg defense without a reason. The other is AJ. He's scummy but I won't help turn the train rationale.

Amrun meanwhile has presented no evidence for his rationale that Bro and Zoidberg couldn't be scum together. He just says Bro is scum therefore Zoidberg cannot be. He has no independent read of Zoidberg which should register as fishy. He doesn't want to say Zoidberg is town for fear of being associated with that. Thus, this is a defense without a reason.

Eh, even if she didn't say it outright her logic aligns with mine on this matter, you should trust me on that and leave it.

[Titus]

@Slandaar, I never sheep without a reason. It's not my style. I can see there are things I don't know but I'm not going to just suppose someone is scum and suppose someone else isn't. That makes no sense.

[Slandaar]

And you and I, being self-assured about our own reads (not to mention stubborn about them) disagree about the nature of the flail.

Any argument about flail is a bad argument.

Why was he flailing in the first place if his goal was to cause a disaster in the thread by playing scummy? that is what you are suggesting happened, yes? or was the flail faked?

[Rift Adrift]

And you and I, being self-assured about our own reads (not to mention stubborn about them) disagree about the nature of the flail.

Any argument about flail is a bad argument.

Why was he flailing in the first place

if his goal was to cause a disaster in the thread by playing scummy

? that is what you are suggesting happened, yes? or was the flail faked?

I don't understand why the bolded is in that sentence. Why do you think that was his goal? Because that is not what I'm suggesting happened and I don't really see how you got there from what I've posted this morning.

I don't think the flail was faked.

[Slandaar]

@Slandaar, I never sheep without a reason. It's not my style. I can see there are things I don't know but I'm not going to just suppose someone is scum and suppose someone else isn't. That makes no sense.

No I mean just trust that they are not both scum because there is literally no chance of it.

Zoid attacked BRO at the absolute opportune time to make the dethy boil over, why would he do that as scum/scum? it just wouldn't happen... getting his buddy BRO lynched would have been absolutely catastrophic for scum. Only way it could be scum/scum is if there is no daychat but honestly if Zoid is scum you should be assuming daychat due to the timing.

[Slandaar]

I don't understand why the bolded is in that sentence. Why do you think that was his goal? Because that is not what I'm suggesting happened and I don't really see how you got there from what I've posted this morning.

I don't think the flail was faked.

That is the impression I got from him.

To have breadcrumbed whatever he did he must have been thinking rationally to copy whatever he did in game X, hence it is quite deliberate play. I thought everyone realised that. I thought the town argument was he deliberately played scummy to cause the disaster to get reactions and info, instead you are saying he just is scum who on the fly tried to mimic his town meta.

Well that is good.

[Rift Adrift]

I don't understand why the bolded is in that sentence. Why do you think that was his goal? Because that is not what I'm suggesting happened and I don't really see how you got there from what I've posted this morning.

I don't think the flail was faked.

That is the impression I got from him.

To have breadcrumbed whatever he did he must have been thinking rationally to copy whatever he did in game X, hence it is quite deliberate play. I thought everyone realised that. I thought the town argument was he deliberately played scummy to cause the disaster to get reactions and info, instead you are saying he just is scum who on the fly tried to mimic his town meta.

Well that is good.

Syr will need to clarify this, but I think the breadmcrumbing was separate from the jobpick game subtext in his mind.

Basically my contribution to it all was that once you made your posts about the dethy, Zoidberg's earlier posts suddenly looked opportunistic in timing and in content, which flipped the everloving fuck out of my read on him.

Before that, I think the main reason I eventually had him as town was because he seemed to be thinking like a few of my town reads as well as liking the way he went about scumhunting Stubbs (irrespective of whether he was right about Stubbs, it looked like real scumhunting to me. Those town reads as it happens are part of the dethys group. If he's scum, I'm going to be insufferable about how crazy-good my reads have been so far given what the dethys knowledge was doing to the game state.

[Titus]

I would like Bro as town more and Zoidberg as scum if I had to choose. Giving town a day chat with four private members is way OP. I'd expect scum to have a day chat as well. Then Zoidberg happens to channel his suspicion of Bro when it reaches a boiling point in the cop qt (supposing without seeing) would indicate knowledge. I hate coincidence and I cannot believe Zoidberg did that as town right when it was coming up in the deathy.

[Aunt Jemina]

Scum is;
AJ
Baezu
BRO
Rift
Elvis

If I am wrong on BRO I would suggest it is Ghost and Zoidberg but I think its very unlikely, I can't see Zoid scum unless BRO is town and I can't see BRO as town so there you go. I am not entirely sure who I would replace with Zoid anyways. I can't see 6 scum, I can't see multiball, 5 seems right to me. Maybe scum/sk but this is pointless speculation at this point in the game.

The only reason I even consider I am wrong there is that Zoid makes it look like he and someone else(ghost) have daychat and he jumped on BRO to incite inhouse fighting; AJ did the old hard bus, Baezu is scum for reasons explained previously, Rift is scum who has avoided the wagon actively pushing the terrible counterwagon on Stubbs near enough all day except near end to save BRO (BRO is more valuable by a long way - did Rift ever look at the Stubbs meta one can only wonder) BRO is scum due to reasons that again can be found in the thread, Elvis is scum because she tried to defend Baezu with the 'DONT LYNCH LURKERS ITS SCUMMY!!!' then tried to lynch Sonic (a lurker) who is town fyi.

Slandy, deary, you are on the right track, but you are not correct. Brossy is town (as is Sonny), and thus, Ghostly and Zoidy are scum. Knitty is also town.

Rifty Drifty I become increasingly convinced is sour. I want to be wrong, but I feel you are right on that. Eddie's slot is also scum, and when you throw in Zoidy and Ghostly, that's four names. If there is a fifth name (there is no guarantee of that; 19 players leaves it ambiguous balance-wise), it can be Bazzy, but it could also be someone else.

To explain more clearly, my read on Bazzy has been weakened. Bazzy's done a lot of things to make me doubt my read, in addition to the names supporting Bazzy's lynch making me more hesitant about it.

In more clear terms:

StubbsKVM, Xiao Long, roflcopter, Titus, Metal Sonic, yourself, TiphaineDeath, oriole, BROseidon, and elvis_knits are town.

Rift Adrift, Ghostly Penguin

, Baezu,

EddieFenix

, ArcAngel9, PeregrineV, Amrun, and

Zoidberg

are the remaining names.

has it been asked, and if so, do you have an answer?

Yes and Yes as has already been said in thread I am pretty sure.

No, it has not been said in-thread as far as I can tell. However, it does not need to be; just knowing that you know the answer is good enough for me.

no bullshit aj just slipped not knowing what is being discussed in the cop qt which is a townslip if the scum know what is being discussed there (which is the assumption we're under)

You are correct. I am town, who does not know what is being discussed in the cop QT. However, as others have pointed out, I am quite capable of faking this townslip. I commented on similar subjects the last time I was scum. I am a competent enough player where my scumteam was even nominated for the Best Performance: Scumteam scummy, in large part because of my contribution.

Why are you more interested in momentum than whether or not Zoidberg is scum or not? I agree this game does have to move, but this seems like a push to close it early. Considering you've been on Baezu all day, this seems like an completely unnecessary comment and reads like you're keeping your options open.

This is a misrepresentation of my stances. I have held the stance of Bazzy being scum so far, yes. Which means that when Bazzy's lynch held momentum, there was no reason to abandon the wagon to pursue another scumread of mine.

Given the choice between voting a scumread with momentum and voting a scumread without, the clear option is to continue voting the scumread with momentum, as I was doing on Bazzy. However, if the momentum on Bazzy faded and the momentum on Zoidy became stronger, I would have reason to switch. This has changed, however, and now my read on Bazzy has been thrown into doubt. Thus, I have reason to switch, momentum be damned. (It is merely coincidence that the momentum on Bazzy has died down and Zoidy momentum has grown. I would be switching to him regardless of wagon size.)

When she's not trying to passively push a meta lynch on us, she's talking about muitiball,

the possibility of framers (which again, smacks of complaining that this is

too easy for Town

)

and wanting Dethy cops to confirm their flips (probably for her scum team). Her vote is on Baezu, but I can't remember WHY; or why she votes Titus in her first post of the game, which is #852. She admits that she's not bothered to confirm some reads, but is sure about the meta of half of this hydra.

That said, Dethy's broken as shit

, I don't have a huge fountain of evidence against BRO, and we'd be remiss not to exploit the shit out of the Dethy subgame.

I present to you concrete evidence that Ghostly is scum: Absolute cognitive dissonance. Observe the statements. Ghostly says that Dethy's "broken as shit", and yet is calling me scum for saying that Dethy is too easy for the Town without scum interference. One of those is not like the other.

To address the other concerns, I have explained my stance on multiball and talking about it is now obsolete, given the nature of the cop game. My vote on Titus was based off of a quick iso skim of Titus along with Titus's content on the first page. It was laid down to place a vote, while I was reading. And once more, Ghostly ignores my critical argument: some metas are easier than others. I have not bothered to confirm some of my reads, most of them my weaker reads. However, when it comes to the Ghostly hydra, there is no need to confirm what I already know: Ghostly is scum.

Unvote: Baezu.

VOTE: Zoidberg.

[Amrun]

So you're not going to bother substantiating the meta of your meta-based scumread?

[Ghostly Penguin]

No she isn't.

Because she can't. She has yet to actually articulate the behaviors that make her meta scum reads scum or her meta town reads town. She's done "because meta, and Ally is easy to read all game."

She's not been able to talk about the behaviors that she's seen in the meta. She wants you to take "because meta" seriously without doing any work and on her claims alone.

[Ghostly Penguin]

I discuss this tendency of AJ in 1185. She's done it all game.

[BROseidon]

Back from V/LA. Catching up now.

[BROseidon]

For anyone still wanting to lynch BRO - even though it's already been explained, perhaps me saying it again will make it more clear: there's no need to lynch within the dethy yet as it's guaranteed to work itself out. We get more info from Baezu lynch, too, imo.

I don’t understand why this is hard for everyone to understand.

The only reason I even consider I am wrong there is that Zoid makes it look like he and someone else(ghost) have daychat and he jumped on BRO to incite inhouse fighting;

Why does this only implicate GP?

Baezu why no read on me early on. I’m kind of a VIP here >.>

That said, that amount of effort looks pretty good. Still gonna keep an eye on you, but you’re doin’ better.

Baezu, bro, or bust! Baezu, bro, or bust!

Oh come on I know you’re a better player than this.

Zoidberg is not scum with broseidon because of how his (good) case brought the game to a head and really put the limelight on bro.

Zoid’s case was shit and timed in lockstep with Slandaar declaring a scumread on me in the QT. That is suspicious as fuck.

The best lynch to me seems to be BRO, he will flip scum and everyone can celebrate... well except the scum but that doesn't matter.

You are either scum or a complete idiot. Best lynch is obviously outside the Dethy group and I have been incredibly consistent with that both in and out of the QT. Like, did half this game seriously fail basic math or do you all just not care that you are being fucking morons.

The facts are that lynching the scum in the dethy;
Removes the link between scum and the dethy qt this is very useful in itself as they won't know who we targetted etc and we can work together in our qt to figure out results. By hiding them from scum this does a lot because scum will know the alignment of the targetted player and thus can take much more educated guesses as to which sanities we are (or just plain work them out) a lot quicker.

Then there is the fact while the scum is alive they will mess with results and make it harder for us to figure out who is what sanity, with the scum lynched today we can in fact work out sanities a lot quicker and easier.

This argument is incredibly short sited because EVERYONE IN THE QT IS GOING TO FUCKING DIE ANYWAYS. THAT’S HALF OF HOW WE’RE GOING TO WORK IT OUT, BECAUSE SCUM AREN’T GOING TO RISK LEAVING ALIVE 2 USEFUL COPS AND 2 OTHER “CONFIRMED” TOWNIES BECAUSE EVENTUALLY THE RESULTS WILL SORT THEMSELVES.

WAH WAH YOU MIGHT BE WRONG SLAND?!!!! Just have confidence! I am not.

This is the exact sort of fucking attitude that scum take advantage of. Townies need to treat the game probabilistically because there is intrinsically predominantly speculative/incomplete information. It’s like investing money.

And no I don't understand why people say math is a defence when the odds are not 1/5 because reads.

Same can be applied outside the Dethy group but better because you are starting at better odds.

Syr may also want to tackle answering this because it wasn't Rift that BRO appealed to, it was Syr. I don't think it had to do with wanting a strong player. I think it had to do with wanting a player who would understand the parallels he was seeing with the jobpick game.

I appealed specifically to Syr because he’s one of the few players who’s been on the receiving end of my crumbing-gambit before (if Nacho or kdub were here I would have also reached out to them). Syr knows first-hand what it’s like to be on the receiving end of me deliberately crumbing information involving setup-related information to goad people to help me get better reads, which is why I wanted him to pay close attention to see if he noticed any responses that looked like they came from a scum-perspective.

Why was he flailing in the first place if his goal was to cause a disaster in the thread by playing scummy? that is what you are suggesting happened, yes? or was the flail faked?

My use of the word “disaster” was my telling Syr, “Hey, remember that thing I did in jobpick with crumbing setup information? I’m doing that again.”

Zoid attacked BRO at the absolute opportune time to make the dethy boil over, why would he do that as scum/scum? it just wouldn't happen... getting his buddy BRO lynched would have been absolutely catastrophic for scum. Only way it could be scum/scum is if there is no daychat but honestly if Zoid is scum you should be assuming daychat due to the timing.

Can we lynch Zoidberg now. His attack on me was so perfectly in lockstep with Slandaar’s attack on me that the odds of that being a coincidence are abysmal.

That is the impression I got from him.

To have breadcrumbed whatever he did he must have been thinking rationally to copy whatever he did in game X, hence it is quite deliberate play. I thought everyone realised that. I thought the town argument was he deliberately played scummy to cause the disaster to get reactions and info, instead you are saying he just is scum who on the fly tried to mimic his town meta.

Well that is good.

So you’re saying that town play shouldn’t be done deliberately? Play should always be deliberate regardless of alignment, just deliberate in different ways. It’s called not be a shitty player.

And what I did wasn’t “playing scummy,” it was trying to goad out reactions that could be parsed as either town or scum based on how players in the past responded to it. That’s very strongly town-motivated.

Rifty Drifty I become increasingly convinced is sour. I want to be wrong, but I feel you are right on that. Eddie's slot is also scum, and when you throw in Zoidy and Ghostly, that's four names. If there is a fifth name (there is no guarantee of that; 19 players leaves it ambiguous balance-wise), it can be Bazzy, but it could also be someone else.

Syr’s response to my crumbing has made that slot an incredibly strong townread for me. I don’t think Syr would have responded that way were he scum.

Zoidberg’s timing in attacking me was too perfect. As I’ve said, the odds of that coming from town are way too low for me to let it go.

VOTE: Zoidberg

[Titus]

@Bro, which came first in the QT? Slandaar's scum read on you or Zoidberg's suggestion?

[BROseidon]

Here is the order of things:

rofl scumreads me in QT. A few days later, Slandaar also scumreads me. Right after Slandaar suggest that I'm scum, Zoidberg attacks me. Then entire QT scumreads me.

[Baezu]

Slandaar, I much prefer lynching outside the deathy today. I see Bro as much more likely to be town than Zoidberg. I think rofl or sonic are the scum in the deathy.The scum in the deathy must visit the target due to the possibility of being read by a tracker or reverse tracker. We don't need to lynch within the deathy.The risk of hitting a cop is to great and we don't have consensus on the scum cop. Let's take one check with him and see.

Zoidberg however seems to have people defending him without reason. Notice his vanishing act. Zoidberg is the right play here.

I agree. I also feel like we shouldn't lynch within the dethy.

I'm also not really feeling the Zoidberg lynch.

This, however:

(It is merely coincidence that the momentum on Bazzy has died down and Zoidy momentum has grown. I would be switching to him regardless of wagon size.)

I don't believe it's a coincidence that you're switching between wagons that have momentum. It seems like you're just trying to get a lynch through and the easiest lynches are the wagons with the most momentum. This is by far the scummiest thing that has been said today and I'm not sure why we're not ALL voting for this.

VOTE: AuntJemina

[Baezu]

Baezu why no read on me early on. I’m kind of a VIP here >.>

I had to go before I could finish my reads list but I am now in the process of finishing it...stay tuned.