[M] Newbie 1440: Maestro's Manic Mafia - DAY 3

[scotpgot]

really, yes really, its not what you are saying is what you are trying not to say that is concerning me...

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. So until someone else takes the crown...

VOTE: Smudger

[Naio]

Naio,

Do you mind explaining how you went from a scum read on me to a scum read on slimer? I see that you originally voted him for inconsistency concerning how many games he played. Is that the sole reason you voted him? What about Slimer's posting has solidified your scum reading of him?

Hi guys, i'd like you all to take a minute and read over my past posts. I think everyone is confusing "noob" for "stupid".

I made 2 mistakes. I made a "noob" mistake by voting after the deadline had passed, which i did not realize. I made a 2nd "noob" mistake not realizing that there were 2 cells with "mafia goon" in them, meaning that my theory about cop/tracker was just bollocks. (okay mistake 3 maybe when it took me 4 posts to figure out how to vote for someone)

You might be used to people playing who just make "stupid" mistakes - which is much different than what i've done so far. I'm sure there are plenty of new players out there who aren't good at positioning themselves to move people's opinions of them, but i feel like the current accusations on me are all at the behest of slimer, who is leading the charge. I dont even think i'm first on the chopping block for people, but i feel that slimer is throwing out accusations as much as possible and trying to get one to stick.

Then, to answer this question:

Naio,

Do you mind explaining how you went from a scum read on me to a scum read on slimer? I see that you originally voted him for inconsistency concerning how many games he played. Is that the sole reason you voted him? What about Slimer's posting has solidified your scum reading of him?

You're correct, my original scum on slimer was that i thought i caught him in a lie when he said it was his first game, and then he said he played all the time. I didn't realize it was just a really poor attempt at being funny. Once that was cleared up I no longer had a scummy read on him (which is why i changed my vote, just didn't realize it was past the deadline) until he started calling me out here on Day 2. My scum read on him at this point is that he's trying to throw what he THINKS are "noob mistakes" under the bus, but he is confusing 'noob' with 'stupid' - as i explained above.

so, with my 2 opinions above, both pointing me to a single person:

VOTE: theslimer3

[Naio]

sorry guys, i didnt mean to double-quote there. there should only be a quote for my 2nd paragraph.

[theslimer3]

And i've done the same thing my first game. I had the entire town under my claim and everyone thought I was town mostly.

I'm sorry Smudger for being so aggressive, but your argument truly does suck.

I mean look at what your first post is. It was that you're keeping up with your read on me, yet all evidence moving you to thinking i'm scum is coming directly from.the end of the day and the beginning of this one. It's an entirely new logic point, especially the way you're presenting it.
You're seriously making me reconsider you rather than Naio, but so far all you're really doing is making a bad case against me, and unfortunately town does that too.

And I didn't mean to patronize you, you just have a bad way of explaining yourself, so I wanted to push you to actually say something more in depth, but that failed.

Unless you're going to say something useful or scummy, i'm done with you. Sorry to say.

And believe me, it's not because i'm "greater than thou".
It's because you're too distracting, almost purposely.

[scotpgot]

So does the Aphix murder on its own tell us anything?

I guess that's a general game-play question for TAM, and also a specific to this game question for anybody.

[scotpgot]

Read back through Smudger's ISO a little bit and don't see anything too damning, actually.
UNVOTE:

We should call this game SE vs. Newbies because there is certainly a divide between the two! Smudger and Peabody don't like me, aphix doesn't like smudger, naio doesn't like peabody, and I don't like anyone! I think that, for balance reasons, the scumteam would be comprised of newbies and seasoned players alike, so this can't be the case, though.

Did find this, though. Might be interesting to take another look at in hindsight.

[The Acting Method]

So does the Aphix murder on its own tell us anything?

I guess that's a general game-play question for TAM, and also a specific to this game question for anybody.

It could, Obviously Scum found Aphix to be a threat of some kind. That or he may have thought them town and they felt it worth it to kill him to give them town cred. It's a two sided sword.
I'd also like to say that it clears me more likely than not. Because for what reason would I want to kill Aphix dead.

I'd have to question why the scum kept me alive though. As the IC in theory they would want me dead more than the others. So that is why I lean to an advantage for them from it.

Naio,

Do you mind explaining how you went from a scum read on me to a scum read on slimer? I see that you originally voted him for inconsistency concerning how many games he played. Is that the sole reason you voted him? What about Slimer's posting has solidified your scum reading of him?

Hi guys, i'd like you all to take a minute and read over my past posts. I think everyone is confusing "noob" for "stupid".

I made 2 mistakes. I made a "noob" mistake by voting after the deadline had passed, which i did not realize. I made a 2nd "noob" mistake not realizing that there were 2 cells with "mafia goon" in them, meaning that my theory about cop/tracker was just bollocks. (okay mistake 3 maybe when it took me 4 posts to figure out how to vote for someone)

You might be used to people playing who just make "stupid" mistakes - which is much different than what i've done so far. I'm sure there are plenty of new players out there who aren't good at positioning themselves to move people's opinions of them, but i feel like the current accusations on me are all at the behest of slimer, who is leading the charge. I dont even think i'm first on the chopping block for people, but i feel that slimer is throwing out accusations as much as possible and trying to get one to stick.

Okay, the first mistake you listed (And the reason we use "n00b" is because it's rare for an experienced player to make those kind of mistakes for no reason. (And even still you were trying to achieve something towards the lynch.) and I would have barely classified it as a mistake.

And you're missing the mistake that we are calling you out for. (note, there is a guaranteed Mafia Goon in the set up. The question is there a power role or not. There is no row that allows for two scum power roles in the game.) Your mistake that WE are going after is simple:

Then of course we have the chance that

aphix

was the tracker/cop[/b], and we're fucked.

In the big post where I voted you I pointed out that aphix flipped Vanilla town.

Now instead of complaining about us mistaking the word "n00b" for "stupid" and saying everything stems from that. How about you address the ACTUAL issue? The problem of you saying the above quote when you logically should have known that aphix flipped VT. The only reason your other comment the tracker/cop comment came into suspicion was because I made a comment to some one else on that subject. (Saying that attacking someone for the doctor assumption gave a double standard to his "n00b mistake" defense of you in a different way.

It's not your tracker/cop theory that is why I at least voted you first. It's because you said that when the person you were talking about was A: Dead and B: Had flipped vanilla town.

[Naio]

It's not your tracker/cop theory that is why I at least voted you first. It's because you said that when the person you were talking about was A: Dead and B: Had flipped vanilla town.

Sorry if I was not clear, and reading back i see it wasnt very clear. that entire post was based on a misunderstanding, 1) there are two "goon" slots. 2) that you actually see the role of the person that dies

as i said in my original post, i'm used to live-action mafia, not forum, it's much different rules.

[theslimer3]

It's not your tracker/cop theory that is why I at least voted you first. It's because you said that when the person you were talking about was A: Dead and B: Had flipped vanilla town.

Sorry if I was not clear, and reading back i see it wasnt very clear. that entire post was based on a misunderstanding, 1) there are two "goon" slots. 2) that you actually see the role of the person that dies

as i said in my original post, i'm used to live-action mafia, not forum, it's much different rules.

I would really enjoy looking at that if you have a copy of the footage. I would love a camp meeting grounds for a huge mafia game like that

[Naio]

I would really enjoy looking at that if you have a copy of the footage. I would love a camp meeting grounds for a huge mafia game like that

(this is super off topic)
i think i wrote in an earlier post i've never played, only watched live streams. this is the channel i watch, they play games every monday and wednesday evenings. http://www.twitch.tv/koibu

after watching them for a while is why i ended up googling and finding this forum

[The Acting Method]

It's not your tracker/cop theory that is why I at least voted you first. It's because you said that when the person you were talking about was A: Dead and B: Had flipped vanilla town.

Sorry if I was not clear, and reading back i see it wasnt very clear. that entire post was based on a misunderstanding, 1) there are two "goon" slots. 2) that you actually see the role of the person that dies

as i said in my original post, i'm used to live-action mafia, not forum, it's much different rules.

Ummm, this still doesn't make sense to me. I get that you thought there were two "goon" slots.

But you do actually get shown the role of the person that died. Unless you mispoke and meant to say "that you don't get shown the role of the person that dies." Aphix flipped vanilla town. Most Mafia games done on forums will show a flip after a death.

I would really enjoy looking at that if you have a copy of the footage. I would love a camp meeting grounds for a huge mafia game like that

(this is super off topic)
i think i wrote in an earlier post i've never played, only watched live streams. this is the channel i watch, they play games every monday and wednesday evenings. http://www.twitch.tv/koibu

after watching them for a while is why i ended up googling and finding this forum

You did. In your RQS answers.

[Smudger]

My argument does not suck and if the so called experienced players cannot see what I am saying hen they are blind. I will say no more than This Naio is not scum and I and the rest of town should trust him explicitly

Slimer you had the chance to sit back and let me use you as bait, but obviously my cryptic hint was missed, that or, as you became uber defensive, you are in fact scum. Based on my observations and your reactions, tied to other reactions I am very much convinced you are scum and either Scot or TAM are probably your surviving buddy.

[Peabody]

UNVOTE: Naio

Smudger's argument isn't bad, slimer. I thought it was actually thoughtful.

I'm not a fan of TAM speculating as to why he wasn't killed. It's WIFOMing my brain to death though.

Honestly, I think slimer is calling people's arguments bad because that's the only way he can defend against them. Smudger is so town it hurts. I doubt Naio is scum at this point.

My vote will be reapplied after I read the thread a little more.

[Naio]

2) that you actually see the role of the person that dies

as i said in my original post, i'm used to live-action mafia, not forum, it's much different rules.

But you do actually get shown the role of the person that died. Unless you mispoke and meant to say "that you don't get shown the role of the person that dies." Aphix flipped vanilla town. Most Mafia games done on forums will show a flip after a death.

to answer your question from post 235, what i said in post 232 was that i didnt realize that you get this:

aphix has been Killed Night 1. They were a

Vanilla Townie

.

when someone dies. i didnt see that when i wrote my post about the possibility of aphix being a tracker/cop.

i dont know what you mean by "flipped" i'm guessing it means showing the role when someone dies? in that case, i didnt know that anyone was ever "flipped"

are we all on the same page now?


also, i'm keeping my vote. SLIMER - i haven't seen you talk about yourself yet, you're still slinging accusations around which is what i called you out for in the first place.

[theslimer3]

I would really enjoy looking at that if you have a copy of the footage. I would love a camp meeting grounds for a huge mafia game like that

(this is super off topic)
i think i wrote in an earlier post i've never played, only watched live streams. this is the channel i watch, they play games every monday and wednesday evenings. http://www.twitch.tv/koibu

after watching them for a while is why i ended up googling and finding this forum

Thanks. Ill watch that tonight :3

@smudger: sit back and use me as bait? Are you saying that you were extremely vague on puropose to lure out a reaction from someone, or what? Because youre still doing it.

Also what about my reactions seen scummy to you?

@Naio: You know what game we're playing, right?

[The Acting Method]

2) that you actually see the role of the person that dies

as i said in my original post, i'm used to live-action mafia, not forum, it's much different rules.

to answer your question from post 235, what i said in post 232 was that i didnt realize that you get this:

aphix has been Killed Night 1. They were a

Vanilla Townie

.

when someone dies. i didnt see that when i wrote my post about the possibility of aphix being a tracker/cop.

i dont know what you mean by "flipped" i'm guessing it means showing the role when someone dies? in that case, i didnt know that anyone was ever "flipped"

are we all on the same page now?
[/quote]

Thank you for confirming that you misspoke in 232 and meant to say that you didn't realize you got a flip (yes flip means revealing the players role) in Forum Mafia. It actually clears up that post a lot. There are some games that won't show you the alignment. But you would never see that in a n00b game. Mainly because that is considered a bastard mechanic. (I'm actually surprised that the real life mafia you have watched doesn't do that either.)

I should really stop being lazy and look over aphix to see who is scum.

And Peabody, I can provide you with meta of me speculating why I was still alive the next day (and providing a detailed analysis of the reasoning) where I was town. Not sure if I have evidence of me doing that as scum. But apparently my IC style makes me very good at WIFOM. Mainly because I teach and play the game similtaniously so often I end up making posts that give both sides of an argument. (I can think of at least one town game where I did this for sure...) Is it WIFOM? Yes but it's also something that should be discussed as it may provide hints as to why aphix was killed. Something which I will probably analyzing in greater detail soon. Looking in particular at his reads. It's not as important as reading splash/mollie for scum cues, but something I think bares looking into. Especially if something can combine with the splash/mollie interaction hints.

Also
UNVOTE: Naio
I feel satisfied with his explanation. And now will be looking at Aphix's reads and then Mollie/Splash's interactions.

[Naio]

@Naio: You know what game we're playing, right?

Yes, and as other people have pointed out, you keep refusing to defend yourself or talk about your actions. even in your post, yet again, it's either calling someone else's accusation crappy, or slinging an accusation at someone else for something they said.

QUESTION: what do you have to say about all the accusations about yourself?
QUESTION: why is your approach of accusing people and picking apart other people's accusations on yourself a town play, and not a scum play?

[theslimer3]

Defend myself against what? Why tell me exactly what i'm missing and i'll fill in the blanks for you.

Q1: as i've said before, they aren't well formulated and have more holes than a sponge. Loaded attacks more or less.

Q2: I don't think i've said at any time that me attacking someone makes myself look town. In fact it probably does the opposite. I can be the scummiest looking person this game, but at least that in turn,makes me see who is scum without the distraction of constantly bickering among people, proving my innocence. If I feel my offense is too strong, i'll defend myself. Or die trying to get my target lynched the next day, which is you at the moment.

[Naio]

But you don't have a single scummy read on me other than the mistake I made, which i explained above. again back to the "noob" vs "stupid" debate. Not understanding the nuances of the rules/process does not equal scum. it equals noob, which i'm happy to call myself. even if i were mafia, i dont see how the strategy of saying "aphix could have had a role" is a mafia strategy either, EVEN IF it wasnt posted right above me.

that being said - when we break down your defense, its essentially "yeah i know i look scummy but it's just to let me see the scum" - that's pretty weak, in my opinion.

in my opinion, i'm your target because i'm talking out against you the most.

[theslimer3]

I won't even mention the setup slip you made. I'll discount that as a noob mistake.
After all, it's kind of confusing wifom to slip that column 2 and A won't be a possibility in this setup.
Let alone that you'd think aphix would be a PR because of it

[theslimer3]

Miss clicked the submit there.

But please reread. This makes it apparent that you weren't looking at what my argument was in the first place, seeing as the only thing i've let go is the only thing you think i'm attacking you for.

[Naio]

Or die trying to get my target lynched the next day, which is you at the moment.

the only thing i've let go is the only thing you think i'm attacking you for.

so, i'm your target "at the moment"

HOWEVER, you've let go the 1 reason you had for voting me in the first place, so you have no reasons left, yet i'm still your target.

you haven't rescinded your vote and are still actively trying to find reasons to accuse me. none of what you are saying makes any one coherent string of thoughts or motivation.

you are supposed to be an experienced player, but i don't see what you're trying to do. i try to think it out - on the assumption you are town, you are playing really really poorly, maybe it's a martyr play where you'll go down with the ship and help uncover another mafia? on the assumption you are mafia, maybe despite your ~20 games, you're just really inexperienced at being mafia?

Anyway, we haven't heard from a whole bunch of people in a while, i'd like to see someone other than me, slimer, TAM, and Scot give us some of their reads.

[theslimer3]

so, i'm your target "at the moment"

HOWEVER, you've let go the 1 reason you had for voting me in the first place, so you have no reasons left

I'm not going to lie, i dont understand most of what you wrote due to the slang you used.

you make a lot of good points, only 2 of which i disagree with.

Proof you see it as a good stance.

1) i dont see why a mafia would jump on a bandwagon while announcing that he's jumping on the bandwagon. if i was mafia trying to jump on the bandwagon, i'd bring a point to why i was voting rather than explicitly stating i was bandwagoning, and then in the future i could say "see i voted for them with this reason!" which is a lot stronger than saying "i voted for them because i was jumping on the wagon!"

2) to me, voting someone without explanation after they made (what i thought) was a legitimate strategy, is still scummy. in fact if YOU are mafia, you would know i'm town, and you're trying to jump on my noob mistakes and get an easy lynch. If i look at it from a 30,000 feet view, i feel it's more likely you are trying to trap a new player and get an easy lynch, than try to draw out a suspected mafia.

so in conclusion, i'm leaning towards you being mafia, not enough to vote for it, but enough to ask you to explain the accusations you made and why they make MORE sense from a town standpoint than from a scum standpoint. after you respond i'm happy to give you my view again.

Proof you knew what I said.

Since you've posted what you said on voting mollie, i've found it strange the way you did so.
Then your post about being a sitbackandwatch player as you have insight made it even more apparent that you're a possible suspect. Something like that just seems like a reason to give you grounds to be a flexible lurker, only needing to post if needed.

Completely forgotten about.

But that alone isn't what brought me to you being scum. Yes, partially the vote took the cake, but not the vote alone, but what you said in it's context. In the before text, it was clear that you've known the vote count and knew where it was going, in a Mollie lynch.
After my apparent hammer, and Aphix's very clear L-1 post that he was so kind to make larger for us, you've still decided to announce you're hopping on the bandwagon, rather than overkilling, hammering, or even L-1ing him. That shows a very basic Mafia trait. One that hops on wagons purely for the kill. Whether or not he was your buddy doesn't matter when you're gaining credit either way.

Completely forgotten about.

Then there's the vote I placed on you. You seemed rather defensive. Any normal player would too, of course. And i'll admit this is quite a stretch, but the way you're calling it the scummiest move, or scum at all is what makes me curios and kind of incriminated you more.
Any normal townie would want to know why. It would be natural for a player to feel pressured and want to see what made them assume why so then could clear themselves, but your immediate logic was to call me scum. Which leaves me to believe that if you were scum, your target of motive would be for the day, me. I would be your direction for a mislynch.

Completely forgotten about.

NOTHING ABOUT YOUR NIGHTKILL SCREWUP.

And this everything actually. Everything I've accused of you. And I can't tell you how frustrating it is that you're acting this way. If you don't want to read what I say, fine, I'll post in smaller paragraphs, but don't be a dick about it and completely ignore me and still try to argue. It makes me just want to strangle you instead of lynching you.

[Smudger]

Slimer your persistence with lecturing Naio is rather filling the thread with fluff. He is town and you are not. Having now read TAM vs Scot, Scot you are probably Town. TAM is doing exactly as Slimer is doing focusing on Naio at the expense of everything else,


Naio is town, noob town who is learning the game, he is 150% TOWN.

[The Acting Method]

Smudger, I was making sure Naio was saying what he was trying to say. Seeing as my chief scumspect is dead I need to check up on my reads and see if anything new has formed.

And Smudger, You did read what I said about the n00b player who made what seemed to be a n00b mistake and managed to use that to win the game as scum?

So forgive me if I take a bit of time to be sure it's a mistake and not something more sinister.

Though to be completely fair I once played a dethy with someone unfamiliar with dethy. He claimed random cop on the second day which I called him out for.

He managed to pull a win through stupidity. Stupidity of the other cop. He did not deserve that win.

So Smudger, when I tell you all of this. Does this make you more wary of your Naio is town claim? I actually find your surety very alarming personally. Mainly because as I have said, I have seen "n00b" scum make mistakes.
Hell half of my Naio push has been clearing up exactly what his second "Mistake" he was thinking of was. He has responded in a town way so I will agree. Just keep in mind that I have made it quite clear why I'm not one to take an "Oh it's just a n00b town mistake" thing.