In post 226, Obscurity wrote: In post 69, pieceofpecanpie wrote:@everyone
I don't really see good things coming out of a hydra slot that doesn't want to reveal themselves (re: Taylor). No way of reading the players or taking their town/scum games into consideration. Best to just lynch early imo.
Susan (may I call you Susan?), I think you're overreacting. Stahp.
How do
you
know how many scum there are?
unvote: Paschendale
based on
post 94. Thanks for joining us.
By the bottom of page 7 I'm ready to kill both XScorp and Taylor. KNOCK IT OFF
Not sure what to say to this. I agree. Odd that Obscurity, who would seem to be a total newbie (I think.. by join date) and wouldn't have experience with pecan gives an opinion on pecan's behavior with some familiarity. I don't know if that's alignment indicative at all but its the most striking thing about this post. Well, actually, the thing the struck me the most was the whole "How do you know how many scum there are?" I remember thinking when I first skimmed this page that I thought the setup was open, though I don't actually remember how many scum there are supposed to be, I don't think it's relevant at this point (early-mid D1). Regarding the last comment: No. I'm not going to stop pushing people to clarify their comments until I'm satisfied and I'm not going to allow anyone to stunt that inquiry either. I find it rather arrogant of anyone to think they can just "scold" us and expect us to stop scumhunting.
In post 227, Grimgroove wrote: In post 76, pieceofpecanpie wrote:You put your vote down after my first post/vote,
post 51, so you must be referring to my
"Well this Day just got easy"
line as being sucky reasoning... Is that even worthy of being called "reasoning"?
Did you just use a stock term to justify your vote?
Exactly what I was thinking.
In comparison to the other tells xscorpion has dropped, the buzzword usage is tiny, imo.
In post 228, Grimgroove wrote: In post 94, Paschendale wrote:XScorpion has gone kind of bananas over this wagon, though. There's some suspicion from Taylor's actions, but not this much. XScorpion is unfocused.
That could be scum trying to find a weakness to exploit
, or town poking people for reactions. The speed with which XS hops off of a new wagon, and tends to hyperfocus on whoever they're voting for. It doesn't seem to be gathering too much information, just trying to push the ball rolling however they can. Plus the vote on Pecan is dumb. Pecan's vote wasn't particularly suspect, especially for a first post in what could still be the RVS phase.
Agreed.
But why then, do you think Taylor's vote on Xscorpion is bad?
I bolded the part of Pasch's quote that I particularly agree with. I am guessing that Pasch doesn't see the same things that we do in scorp's play here. Bad is such a relative term and should be explained more thoroughly by Pasch. (Consider that a request, please.)
You know, grim... did I miss your case on xscorp? Not trying to sound snarky by any means, but I don't recall you posting any major observations on him.
Agreed. And assuming you are referring to his buddying of shos.
In post 231, Grimgroove wrote: In post 102, Blueberry wrote: In post 69, pieceofpecanpie wrote:
@everyone
I don't really see good things coming out of a hydra slot that doesn't want to reveal themselves (re: Taylor). No way of reading the players or taking their town/scum games into consideration. Best to just lynch early imo.
The way I get it is that they decided not to disclose their identities before the game which, while could be useful if they were scum, is really not indicative of their alignment because they did not know their role at the time of making that decision. The fact that you suggest a quicklynch because them not disclosing their identities and preventing other players from metaing them is obviously scummy seems opportunistic and scummy to me.
Vote: Pecanpie
I don't agree with this argument and I found the pecan-wagon more opportunistic looking than any other. Everyone on it is getting FOS'd.
100% grim, absolutely! That's exactly it! If my initial vote is anything to prove, pecan was just scummy. Swift pulled it back and explained it to me. The wagon on pecan was easy, and formed quickly, for the reasoning that he was "obvscum". But most often, "obvscum" is town. Our top scum read, scorpion, was also on this wagon, along with other nulls and nullscum possibilities. Conversely, the counterwagon, at the time, was xscorp, and the people on his wagon were closer to townreads for us.
In post 232, Grimgroove wrote: In post 110, XScorpion wrote: In post 106, shos wrote:eh, anyone has anything to say about the setup maybe?
I considered but decided that discussion of the setup is not helpful at this stage of the game and it is more productive to use this time scum hunting and not speculating.
The setup is perfectly clear. This is an open game. What the hell is there to discuss?
I get the impression from shos that he is not entirely here. Scorp's response comes off as LAMIST giving the "appropriate town response" when, indeed, it is an open game.
In post 233, Grimgroove wrote: In post 111, Paschendale wrote: In post 102, Blueberry wrote: In post 69, pieceofpecanpie wrote:
@everyone
I don't really see good things coming out of a hydra slot that doesn't want to reveal themselves (re: Taylor). No way of reading the players or taking their town/scum games into consideration. Best to just lynch early imo.
The way I get it is that they decided not to disclose their identities before the game which, while could be useful if they were scum, is really not indicative of their alignment because they did not know their role at the time of making that decision. The fact that you suggest a quicklynch because them not disclosing their identities and preventing other players from metaing them is obviously scummy seems opportunistic and scummy to me.
Never heard of traditional reading where you analyze a player's post/ask questions etc?
This looks awfully full of obvious misrep to me. Pecan is not calling for a quicklynch. He's calling for what might be a policy lynch, but "early" pretty obviously means early in the game, as in days, as in don't wait for day 4, rather than a quicklynch without much discussion. And Pecan is right, lack of meta information does make it more difficult to get a read on them and thus denies town information. I don't think it's a lot of information that we're missing, but the charge of opportunism comes completely out of left field. There's no convenient or low risk vote at this point. We're on page 5, and it was page 3 at the time. The fourth vote on a wagon that is currently under discussion is hardly opportunism.
Lastly, the "no way of reading" bit is clearly taken way out of context. Pecan is saying that there's no way to know who they are. Not unless someone is very familiar with various players' posting styles and can pick out who is who just from that. It would certainly be more difficult than with a hydra that signs each half's posts.
None of this should be construed as defense of Pecan (though votes on him are really bad at the moment), but I have to ask what's with all the misreps and bad assumptions? Why not make a case based on what Pecan actually said rather than obvious misreps? What do you have to hide?
Yup!
I disagree. Blueberry's response about "quicklynch" seems far more like a misunderstanding than a misrep.
In post 234, Grimgroove wrote: In post 117, Taylor wrote:I think you're missing the point.
I was correcting pasch, who seems to believe people find pecan scummy because he suggested that we be lynched quickly, and assumes that everyone voting pecan had the same misunderstanding - that "quickly" implied "quicklynch".
I don't believe that's the case at all, considering that no one said "quicklynch" or even insinuated it. For someone who accused others of "misreps", I find it hypocritical that he did the same thing.
You cans ee how this is hilarious right?
Taylor is town though.
Yes.
My own failure to read properly. My partner has, several times, said I should slow down.
In post 235, Grimgroove wrote:Whoops, no, maybe not. Back to null with Taylor.
In post 93, Taylor wrote: In post 31, helium-3 wrote:I hope taylor discloses the heads.
as just, you know, a courtesy thing.
Apologies, but we will not, not at this time. We're town and if you're town also (I think you are), we'll be working well together. That's about all there is to say.
My partner, and I can say with confidence this is his style. He can confirm this, or correct me if I'm wrong, but I have seen him do this to try to work with his town reads.
Grimegroove wrote: In post 124, Taylor wrote: In post 94, Paschendale wrote:I could see Taylor as scum based on the reaction. It's way overblown. Same problems voting Pecan. Taylor's posts just look empty and fluffy to me. Not the thoughts of someone who is trying to figure out what's going on. Vote on Taylor stays and is now serious. Looks like I poked the hornet's nest with my sharp stick.
PEedit: Yeah... Taylor voting for XS looks even worse. Pretty sold that one of them is scum. I think it's Taylor more than XS.
We are town, Dale. Continuing to push us is about the worst possible thing you can do if you're also town. (Which we think you are.)
These things between brackets.
(buddying)
Myes.
See above. Same head. Same style. Same intentions. I've not exactly perfected my ability to work with my town reads yet.
In post 236, Grimgroove wrote: In post 125, XScorpion wrote: In post 124, Taylor wrote:You are correct that the reaction of my partner was overblown.
Can you at least sign your messages as Head A or Head B or something? Because I swear if this is just the beginning of more nonsense then I'll eat my own words and actually policy lynch you just for being a nuisance.
Your insitance on this hydra-business is a nuisance and has got nothing to do with this game. I had to sift through several pages of this bullshit. Hydra's not disclosing their heads is very common, not alignment indicative and has no influence on the game on how you read people.
That argument about hydra-dissonance is also inflated. The fact you use it before it occurred does sit well with me though. I think scum would wait until the inevitable occurs (hydra dissonance is close to inevitable) and only use it as an argument then.
Could you point me to a game where you used meta in your scumhunt? You're making a big deal out of something I suspect you don't even employ in your towngames.
Now, here's the point. He later answered that no, he does not. Yet he made a big deal out of it with us. Why? When we questioned him as to his root motivation behind it, he answered, eventually, that he is more interested in who the players are than the actions they take or points they make. This should show a distinct difference in motivation, between a town POV (reacting to scum-motivated arguments, pushes, or votes) and a scum POV (finding anything they can
use
to push a lynch).
In post 237, Grimgroove wrote:VOTE: BlueBerry
End of page 6 XScorpion is reading very town to me. His frustrations, though unwarranted, feel genuine.
XScorpion, clarify this for me though: why are you giving Taylor such a hard time over this but are giving a pass to Scarlet Yoshi and Helium3?
His frustration and indignation did not feel genuine to either of us. It felt very fabricated and out of proportion to the issue at hand. I have been frustrated with hydrae in my past on this site. I have not gone to this extreme to get them lynched. I just grumbled my way through the game and assessed their play as best I could. Best example I can think of was a game with a ffery/buldermar hydra. Fferyltt was very mild mannered and logical, whereas buldermar was extremely aggressive. I don't recall if they had agreed to sign their posts or not, but I remember it being somewhat difficult to discern their alignment. At first. It became clear rather quickly they were town, because despite their very different personalities and playstyles, they shared the same wincon and attempted to play to it. Their hydra status did not change that, and it was not a part of any case against them. Xscorpion does not seem interested in finding out if our wincon is for town or scum. Rather, he's interested in who we are and attempting (or was anyway) to make a wagon/lynch on it.
In post 238, Grimgroove wrote: In post 170, Taylor wrote:We're not looking for justification to accuse you of being scum. We're looking for signs of your alignment. And all signs point to you being scum who is ticked off that he's gotten caught
for what he perceives to be bullshit
.
Could you enumerate what arguments you are referring to here Taylor?
Swift will have to answer this one as he'll be able to do so more clearly.
In post 239, shos wrote: In post 226, Obscurity wrote: In post 69, pieceofpecanpie wrote:@everyone
I don't really see good things coming out of a hydra slot that doesn't want to reveal themselves (re: Taylor). No way of reading the players or taking their town/scum games into consideration. Best to just lynch early imo.
Susan (may I call you Susan?), I think you're overreacting. Stahp.
How do
you
know how many scum there are?
unvote: Paschendale
based on
post 94. Thanks for joining us.
By the bottom of page 7 I'm ready to kill both XScorp and Taylor. KNOCK IT OFF
firstly, this is an open setup, lol.
then, I thought you voted pasch on that post and did not understand wtf made you do it and wrote like 3 paragraphs but then I noticed it is an UNvote and not a vote...damn you.
In post 231, Grimgroove wrote: In post 102, Blueberry wrote: In post 69, pieceofpecanpie wrote:
@everyone
I don't really see good things coming out of a hydra slot that doesn't want to reveal themselves (re: Taylor). No way of reading the players or taking their town/scum games into consideration. Best to just lynch early imo.
The way I get it is that they decided not to disclose their identities before the game which, while could be useful if they were scum, is really not indicative of their alignment because they did not know their role at the time of making that decision. The fact that you suggest a quicklynch because them not disclosing their identities and preventing other players from metaing them is obviously scummy seems opportunistic and scummy to me.
Vote: Pecanpie
I don't agree with this argument and I found the pecan-wagon more opportunistic looking than any other. Everyone on it is getting FOS'd.
what don't you agree with in it? I think that post is very, very townie and is a good thinking post. yes, the whole 'quicklynch' notation is wrong, but replace it with policy lynch and/or just a vote - and it is correct. as I've already said, there are plenty of reasons not to say who are your heads as a hydra, and that overexaggarated push by pecan is definitely voteworthy, imo. hence my vote as well.
In post 232, Grimgroove wrote: In post 110, XScorpion wrote: In post 106, shos wrote:eh, anyone has anything to say about the setup maybe?
I considered but decided that discussion of the setup is not helpful at this stage of the game and it is more productive to use this time scum hunting and not speculating.
The setup is perfectly clear. This is an open game. What the hell is there to discuss?
Well, how town should act. I dunno, last time I played the setup I was scum, so I didn't care much and kinda tried to sabotage stuff there, but we also go lucky to hit the cop N1 and that was a nice win. so I dunno, first time as town in this setup.
will read further soon
I am responding in "Post a Reply" and cannot make heads or tails of who this quote ends and begins with all the bbcode and stuff. I'll have to respond to this particular post after I do this one.
Hi. What is your read on helium at the moment?
In post 241, Grimgroove wrote: In post 219, Taylor wrote: There were very clear issues that were discussed that no one seems to be addressing.
T
Again: enumerate them.
The only way I see is you being in the comfortable position of having to defend yourself against a stupid argument on hydra-play. You enjoy delving into that because it's so comfortable but it doesn't make you more town. As much as the hydra-argument is a null-tell, so is your defense against said argument. But that's the only thing I saw you do. What arguments against Scorpion are you referring to?
I was specifically speaking to scorp's motivations during that argument. Honestly, the topic is irrelevant to the game, I agree, and is specifically why we were pushing him on it. Did you read it all carefully or just skim? Honest question because I'd like to discuss it with you, but only if you are very familiar with what was discussed.
In post 242, shos wrote:
MAN this is such an awesome question to ask. I hate to say it, GG, but you're town again.
*sigh*
I have to say that taylor's repeated townclaims look bad.
I don't remember shos ever being this... chummy.
This is actually a good question, Grim. Did you elaborate in your tete a tete with helium? I didn't find it but I wasn't reading the last page or so too thoroughly as I believe both you and helium to be town.
In post 245, Grimgroove wrote:The BlueBerry vote, well, there's not much to go on, he only posted once in
102.
First of all, I disagree with the argument. pekanpie never called for a quicklynch. That alone is of course not my reason to vote Blueberry.
He's basing his attack on a logical argument. The problem is the logical argument is actually a defensive one: the defense against the argument that mysterious hydras are scummy. It's easy to make an argument against this argument. But it's a bridge too far to use it as an attack as well.
Blueberry's post and vote don't look to me like the result of someone catching up with the topic, forming reads. It feels to me like scum looking for a logically sound reason to hop on a wagon. He didn't hunt for scum. He hunted for a pretense to vote someone and found it in Taylor's defense. He tried to spicen it up with a subtle misrep to boot.
Ah ok. Here's the explanation. It looked more to me like newbie play, quite honestly. Not at all that I'm "giving the newbie pass" but blueberry's vote wasn't followed with a lot of arguments that made no sense from a town, scumhunting POV.
In post 246, Grimgroove wrote:+ Paschendale's
111 provides some additional good analysis on Blueberry's post.
The Berry needs a wagon.
I disagree. I think pasch latched onto something way small and made it way big. I do think it's a lot to do with our argument with xscorp taking up half the pages thus far. I'm hoping pasch will have more to add now that we've been quiet for a bit.
In post 247, Blueberry wrote: In post 109, pieceofpecanpie wrote:@Blueberry
Welcome to the party, or should I say welcome to two pages ago...
I'm neither voting nor pushing Taylor currently.
Would you rather that I ignored that?
In post 109, pieceofpecanpie wrote:@Blueberry
I have heard of asking questions, thanks, you can start by giving me your opinion on Taylor? What, if anything, makes them town?
Taylor has been very confusing with her hydra stuff and I don't really like that she and scorp wasted like 5 pages bickering. It's not scummy though.
I really don't like the tone of Pecan's post though considering that I just misread some stuff.
In post 111, Paschendale wrote:
This looks awfully full of obvious misrep to me. Pecan is not calling for a quicklynch. He's calling for what might be a policy lynch, but "early" pretty obviously means early in the game, as in days, as in don't wait for day 4, rather than a quicklynch without much discussion. And Pecan is right, lack of meta information does make it more difficult to get a read on them and thus denies town information. I don't think it's a lot of information that we're missing, but the charge of opportunism comes completely out of left field. There's no convenient or low risk vote at this point. We're on page 5, and it was page 3 at the time. The fourth vote on a wagon that is currently under discussion is hardly opportunism.
Policy lynches are horrible though.
I will have to check with Swift on his blueberry read but I don't think this is a bad post at all by blueberry.
In post 248, XScorpion wrote: In post 226, Obscurity wrote:In post 73, XScorpion wrote:
Oh god can you imagine if the scumteam is all 3 hydras?
How do you know how many scum there are?
...seriously? Get in the game.
Also can you like actually scumhunt instead of boo-hooing about having to read through the arguments? I don't like unvotes that aren't followed by new votes.
Weren't you the one boohooing about having to read a hydra?
What is it about unvotes that you don't like?
(Also note that scorpion responded to Obscurity's legitimate (although thoughtless) question with sarcasm, insults, and a non-answer.)
Xscorpion wrote: In post 236, Grimgroove wrote:Could you point me to a game where you used meta in your scumhunt? You're making a big deal out of something I suspect you don't even employ in your towngames.
I could find an example if you are really really interested but trying to recall details of any game I played three years ago is a bit much to ask. That being said, I think you are mostly correct. Meta is something that
a) others are probably better at analyzing than I
b) I probably won't even bother using until lylo (when the whole game is behind us and everything can be looked at in perspective)
But that doesn't mean it's useless or that it shouldn't be an available tool.
Let me know if you want me to go dig through the old games and look.
Then why did you spend 4 pages arguing with us about revealing our heads for meta? By LYLO, one would think you'd have a handle on your read of us.
Xscorpion wrote: In post 237, Grimgroove wrote:XScorpion, clarify this for me though: why are you giving Taylor such a hard time over this but are giving a pass to Scarlet Yoshi and Helium3?
Scarlet doesn't get as easy a pass as helium, but
1) I know exactly who helium is
2) I didn't have to harass Scarlet to do something as simple as sign posts with different names. I shouldn't have to.
That's right. You don't have to. It has absolutely nothing to do with the game. Follow your own advice: stop complaining and scumhunt.
xscorpion wrote: In post 245, Grimgroove wrote:He's basing his attack on a logical argument. The problem is the logical argument is actually a defensive one: the defense against the argument that mysterious hydras are scummy. It's easy to make an argument against this argument. But it's a bridge too far to use it as an attack as well.
Um, mysterious hydras ARE scummy. Mysterious ANYONE is scummy. I'm always suspicious of people who have something to hide, almost as much as people who dodge questions.
Speaking of which,
In post 247, Blueberry wrote:In post 109, pieceofpecanpie wrote:
@BlueberryI have heard of asking questions, thanks, you can start by giving me your opinion on Taylor? What, if anything, makes them town?
Taylor has been very confusing with her hydra stuff and I don't really like that she and scorp wasted like 5 pages bickering. It's not scummy though.
Try again?
This is a dead horse and I'm going to leave it alone now.
