Newbie 1455: How We Met The Mafia (Game Over!)

[DoctorPepper]

Vote Count 1.04

Not voting(2)

- RachMarie, Bitmap

Bitmap(1)

- TwilightsCall

RachMarie(2)

- drmyshotgun, T S O

T S O(1)

- Acidic_TACO

TwilightsCall(3)

- TeedyKay, MauriceMoss, Dessew

Vote History:

MauriceMoss - Acidic_TACO, TwilightsCallUNVOTE
Acidic_TACO - TwilightsCall, drmyshotgun, UNVOTE, drmyshotgun, UNVOTE, T S O
T S O - TeedyKay, RachMarie
TeedyKay - RachMarie, Acidic_TACO, TwilightsCall
TwilightsCall - drmyshotgun, UNVOTE, techking45, UNVOTE, RachMarie, Bitmap
drmyshotgun - Acidic_TACO, UNVOTE, RachMarie
Dessew - drmyshotgun, Bitmap, TwilightsCall
Bitmap - drmyshotgun, Acidic_TACO, UNVOTE
RachMarie

With 9 alive, it's 5 to lynch.

The deadline is Tuesday, December 10, which is in (expired on 2013-12-10 11:00:00)

Mod notes:

Searching for a replacement for Bitmap.

[RachMarie]

Sorry all I have been really busy, and with lack of activity in this game its much harder for me to analyze things and figure out who is scum and who is town.

A couple of things do stick out.

TCs comment about Dessew making a case on him but not voting for him, followed by Dessew voting for him and reminding people about L-1 and hammering feels very towny to me.

Taco is an un CCed Pr claim so obviously goes in the town pile.

Looking forward to seeing Bitmap's replacement since there is not much there at all so need clarification on that slot for sure.

[RachMarie]

TSO is probably town as well, his frustration seems genuine and not contrived.


As for TC, he is vote hopping a great deal, and in some cases his votes seem to be on whomever is the scummy "flavor of the day" so to speak. He posts a fair bit of stuff, however when looking at him in ISO, a lot of it seems more an attempt to appear to be scum hunting instead of actually scum hunting.

VOTE: TC

THIS IS L-1 So DO NOT HAMMER without giving intent to hammer, thanks.

[TwilightsCall]

Thank goodness someone actually posted something I can respond to.

As for TC, he is vote hopping a great deal, and in some cases his votes seem to be on whomever is the scummy "flavor of the day" so to speak.

Let's look at my votes.

#4: drmyshotgun - RVS vote
#50: techking45 - inactive
#79: RachMarie - inactive
#182: Bitmap - actually mentioned I thought he was acting scummy.

Your claim that I'm "vote-hopping" feels like its coming from nowhere, and that I'm just tagging on people who are 'scum of the day' seems downright absurd. DMS vote was RVS, and it was effectively the first action in the game done by anybody. Second vote for an inactive, because in my naivety, I thought he signed up to play mafia because he wanted to play mafia, so I was trying to give him a little poke. Third vote was for you for the same reason -

one

person mentioned you in any sort of negative light at all, and I was the first one to vote for you - again, partially with the intention of poking you in an attempt to see a response, and partially because with all your posts and none of them containing content useful outside of learning how to play, I was somewhat concerned as to what you were doing. Because, again, silly me thought that when people sign up to play mafia, they intend to play mafia.

My fourth vote on Bitmap was my first vote that actually was done as a judgment on scuminess. Again,

one

person seemed to show any hint of suspicion on him, which was Dessew. For the first time in the entire game, I place a vote on someone who someone else (

one

other person) was voting for.

Vote hopping? Maybe, I suppose. More realistically, I'd say I'm trying to put my vote to use. Leaving it lying around doing nothing all day would have gotten me just as many glares as trying to use it to pull information out of people, so I don't see that as a very convincing argument. Also, considering I was the first to vote on three of my four votes, I find the accusation that I was just following 'flavour of the day' to be downright ridiculous. Especially when you consider that, as we're nearing the end of the day, maybe town should be trying to consolidate their votes, instead of spreading them around? And with so many people thinking Dessew is town, doesn't it make more sense that maybe I would come to the same conclusion, and so might lend the arguments he raises some weight in my thinking?

As far as I can tell, you're trying to condemn me for trying to work together with the town.

He posts a fair bit of stuff, however when looking at him in ISO, a lot of it seems more an attempt to appear to be scum hunting instead of actually scum hunting.

Great, more abstract claims that are effectively undefendable due to lack of evidence being presented.

So many complaints this game about lack of content. So I try to add content by posting my opinions. News flash, I'm suffering from the same lack of content that everyone else is. It's pretty hard to try and develop opinions, let alone a case, when such little content is provided. But unlike many of the people in this game, I

am

trying. The worst part is, I have absolutely no way of knowing what your actual complaint is! Do you disagree with my points/opinions? Do you dislike that I'm posting opinions on what people say without building them into cases? Do you think my points seem shallow because I'm not backing them up with votes?

I feel like I'll never know.


Now, let's talk about the reasons other people are voting for me.

@TeedyKay's #183
Oh right, I forgot. There really aren't any. This entire post is fluff, as far as I'm concerned. Why would you consider the people who are lurking as townies? There is

literally

no reason to believe that - since, you know, they havn't posted anything of any consequence. Why disinterested town? Why not disinterested mafia? Or plotting mafia? Or plotting town PR? This claim is completely unsubstantiated, and I feel as if its just an attempt to justify ignoring those who aren't posting.

He then unvotes someone he wasn't voting (not keeping track of your own vote? I'm not a big fan of that), and proceeds to vote me with no reasons at all. He mentions something back on page 2 about not liking my fence sitting...because I was suspicious of someone claiming a PR at L-2! Why would I not be suspicious of that? Okay, I wasn't willing to lynch someone who made an uncontested PR claim on day 1, despite my suspicions - wait, that's entirely normal! Sorry for not having a clearly defined opinion on page 2 of the game after a suspicious roleclaim, and though I don't mean to use it as a crutch, I will say its also in my first game of mafia...ever. I don't know what kind of omniscient miracle you expect of me, but sorry, I'm just a normal guy, and it takes more than two pages of mostly fluff for me to get a decent read on a single specific individual player.

@MauriceMoss' #184
Yet another vote on me with literally zero reasoning given. Why are you okay with me being scum? Seems to me like he is just sheeping TeedyKay, who also didn't post any reasons. Maybe you have some awesome case on me, hidden deep within the recesses of your mind. Pretty hard to defend against a case I havn't seen though.

And when I look at his ISO to try and get some clues, it gets worse. He hasn't done anything other then ask questions (which is fine) and post facts. In and of itself, thats not so bad, but he doesn't post any opinions at all. On anything. Ever. Other than, of course, that he is okay with me being lynched. I don't know about you guys, but I find that incredibly scummy - jumping on a wagon with no foundation without even

having

an opinion, let alone one on me. Clearly he seems to think I'm scum, but why?

I feel like I'll never know.


@Dessew, over a large number of posts.
I think Dessew is the only one who's voted me that didn't make me feel personally insulted when he did it.

TC: first: you spoke about taco as if he was a PR while you had made it clear that you don't believe his claim unconditionally (you reserved the possibility that he's scum.) Second: mentioning earlier appearances of a thought is really needed, from non-newbie players it's a minor scumtell if they want to present a non-original idea as an original idea (sheeping but trying seem not sheeping.)

First: Why am I being called out for not being willing to lynch an uncontested PR claim on Day 1? I know I would be getting called out if I had been pushing a Taco lynch too, so the fact that I was mildly suspicious of someone claiming at L-2 is the actual sin, I get it. I have only watched a handful of games of Mafia, and I

have

seen people pull shenanigans like this

multiple

times, so I was a bit wary. But you know, now that I've been honest with my opinion, I'm damned either way, so I feel there isn't much point in pushing the issue any further.

Second: I appreciate the advice. I really do. It's something I definitely didn't consider, and will definitely be useful in the future to me. Because now, when I went specifically out of my way to avoid sheeping someone, I'm being called scummy for sheeping. Literally for that exact reason. Not to mention, as I said later, my point was fundamentally different from DMS's - he didn't like that she was coaching with information he considered irrelevant, I didn't like that she was around to coach while not providing input into the game itself. But again, what's done is done, believe me if you want to, don't if you don't, there's not much I can do to change your minds now if I haven't already.

On the bright side, he said later he thought my posts didn't sound "really really newbish." Hurray, though it seems like thats hurting me here more than helping me.


And that's as much suspicion as I can remember against me. As far as I can tell, two of the four votes on me are completely unsubstantiated, a third is on a foundation so weak as to be effectively nonexistant, and the final one is due to some (minor?) scum tells that arose entirely from misunderstandings caused by me not being intimately familiar with the site meta. Both caused by me being honest and upfront with my opinions and trying to work things out for myself without relying on other people's reasoning.

So just in case I get hammered before I'm given the chance to respond again, here's my opinions so far. You can look at my ISO if you want to know why, I've already gone over all of this, barring the null tells, of course.

Scummy: MauriceMoss
Leaning Scummy: TeedyKay, Bitmap
Null: TSO, drmyshotgun, RachMarie
Leaning Town: Dessew, Taco

[Acidic_TACO]

Just saying I'm still not seeing much for evidence of twilight being scum...at this point I think its just a wagon.

[MauriceMoss]

I appreciate your post and I'm here in a newb game trying to figure out the best strategy for posting in a mafia game. I know rl mafia but this online fine tooth combing is hard because I have a tendency to go by intuition and have a hard time explaining why I think someone seems scummy.

Taco seems most scummy to me because although the newbness sounds like a real newb the claiming of one of the strongest town specials seemed weird, especially with the time left in the day and the number of people who were voting. After claiming he also said he knew he would be killed that night because of his claim. Why make the claim?? And then interestingly TSO put in huge letters that other specials should claim to prove taco as scummy but I think that would just put other specials in the line of fire. Also TSO said there is a 50% chance Taco wouldn't be NKed. Why wouldn't mafia NK someone who claimed tracker when there is only 50% chance that there is a dr. in the game? At this point I feel like it's 60:40 Tracker:Scum for Taco.

TC: You posted
"He hasn't done anything other then ask questions (which is fine) and post facts. In and of itself, thats not so bad, but he doesn't post any opinions at all."

I had two posts right when I first joined trying to comment on the people already playing. I time warped the thread twice and posted my thoughts and opinions. I've been posting plenty of opinions, one of which you said you even agreed with. That actually was one of the things that made me question you. It's always nice for a mafia to have a town bonding moment. Of course I'm right on whatever it is you said that you agreed with (no I don't remember what right now) but you still pinged me with that. I'm scummy but I've been trying to post as many thoughts and opinions as possible just to get them out there and try to get the thread moving. It's interesting that you see me as scummy when I've been very straight forward and am trying to hunt but don't have much to work with.

It's also pretty hard to stay engaged.

[MauriceMoss]

Also, even as town, wanting to get the game moving by lynch and learning at least a little info is tempting. So on day 1 a wagon does tempt me.

[Acidic_TACO]

I legitimately thought I was gonna be Lynched within the hour if I didn't post that...what don't you guys understand damn it...

[TeedyKay]

what don't you guys understand damn it...

Why you claimed at L-2 is the major mystery to us all, it was bad gameplay.

Acidic Taco, be honest now, how many of these games gave you played before? How many have you modded? How many have you attempted to mod?

On to Twillight, I get a sense of misdirection from you, I find the majority of your 'reads' to be of no strong bearing to a players allegiance, more just tidbits that hold no real foundation to anything of importance.

For instance, your opinions of me:

First read of me you call me odd, but say I'm probably ok because of punctuation

Second read you agree with me on Taco

Third, you again call me odd for leaving a vote on someone when no other cases had been made in the game

Fourth, a read built on name calling, when if you read what you're talking about you'll notice no names were called, just poor play being highlighted. Calling a nonsensical roleclaim idiotic (which it was) is so far from calling an individual idiotic.

I would like to mention that the amount of times you flip from one opinion of a player to another is quite alarming. You agree with people's thoughts in one breath then believe them scum in another.

You push irrelevant stuff like my misjudged unvote as possible scumminess when in reality it was a copy and paste gone awry.

what's also telling is that once votes are made against you, you push those voting as being scummy, just a little on the side of desperation in my opinion. I mean to highlight Moss as scum for posting questions and facts! What?

Well there it is, that's why you're scum, it's a gut call from me more than anything but I dislike your play (NOTE: your play ... not yourself)



Oh and on the inactive (note I used inactive NOT lurking, there's a HUGE difference) being Townie! Of my experiences of newbies in games, a lot of the time inactivity can come from being Vanilla Town and having nothing to sink their teeth into so slip into obscurity. Just something I've seen in games in the past, it's not always the case, but Day One I'll hold that opinion.

So please don't itallic the word literally when it quite blatantly can be justified.

[T S O]

I suddenly realised what it is to teach people basic theory

[Acidic_TACO]

This is my first online game in years and the only online games I played before were much more causal then this Never started a game before or tried to due to my inexperience...this is a newbie game after all...

[Dessew]

TC:
First: my problem there was the wording. You said, you didn't completely believe Taco's claim, yet in your post he was a 'claimed PR' IIRC, not an 'uncountered PR' or something like that. That's all, I don't say that it's very solid, but it certainly is a thing.
Second: as for the sheeping, it's not even a scumtell, imho, although some might disagree. It becomes scummy when it wants to seem independant. It hard for me to define it, what's inportant is that your votes on both Rach and Bitmap are like this.

[TeedyKay]

This is my first online game in years and the only online games I played before were much more causal then this Never started a game before or tried to due to my inexperience...this is a newbie game after all...

I think it's true to say that the scummiest thing any player can do is lie, the above is laced with a lie as you have attempted to start up a game before.

This lie really makes your claim super suss.

[Acidic_TACO]

This is my first online game in years and the only online games I played before were much more causal then this Never started a game before or tried to due to my inexperience...this is a newbie game after all...

I think it's true to say that the scummiest thing any player can do is lie, the above is laced with a lie as you have attempted to start up a game before.

This lie really makes your claim super suss.

When have I ever tried to start a game...

[TwilightsCall]

On to Twillight, I get a sense of misdirection from you, I find the majority of your 'reads' to be of no strong bearing to a players allegiance, more just tidbits that hold no real foundation to anything of importance.

For instance, your opinions of me:

First read of me you call me odd, but say I'm probably ok because of punctuation

Second read you agree with me on Taco

Third, you again call me odd for leaving a vote on someone when no other cases had been made in the game

Fourth, a read built on name calling, when if you read what you're talking about you'll notice no names were called, just poor play being highlighted. Calling a nonsensical roleclaim idiotic (which it was) is so far from calling an individual idiotic.

Let's take a look at my posts. I'll add some emphasis to speed things along.

Teedy's post strikes me as an odd thing to say, but his punctuation leads me to not take it too seriously.

No real opinion here

until we hear some more from him.

That sure doesn't look like a read on you at all.

I like Teedy's

post

on Taco. It does a fairly good job of explaining my gut feeling on him, though I'm not convinced we can get much in the way of associative reads from him flipping scum at the moment. Thinking about that can wait until we have something to associate though, I don't think worrying about it now has much of a point.

I didn't mention anything about you at all. I said I liked your post, because it resounded well with what I was thinking. I then go on to say that I wasn't convinced your idea of lynching him anyways was a good one! There's no read of you here at all either, I was just stating my opinion, both on

Taco

and on how I didn't think your idea of lynching him despite his claim was a good idea.

This seems like an odd decision to make. I understand where you're coming from,

but I feel like you'd be better off using your vote to generate content and make a case

, rather than just leaving it on someone who is practically guaranteed to not get lynched.

This one wasn't even about scuminess or not! I just thought you were making a strange decision by leaving your vote on someone who was effectively guaranteed to not get lynched. Votes are clearly powerful tools, look how much content the votes on me are generating! If we had been doing this all day, think of how well off we'd be!

For the "name calling," I'll stand by my point. Saying "your stupid roleclaim" and "your idiotic claim would have benefit" is completely unnecessary. Even if you aren't insulting him directly, you're still using ad hominem arguments to try and discredit his opinions. I'm sure he knows that his claim was a bad idea, but you bringing it up as 'stupid' and 'idiotic' 6 pages later serves no purpose that I can see other than to try and make Taco look bad. Is that scummy on its own? Maybe not. And if thats all that there was, I wouldn't have a bad opinion of you. But guess what?

I would like to mention that the amount of times you flip from one opinion of a player to another is quite alarming. You agree with people's thoughts in one breath then believe them scum in another.

Looking over the posts YOU specifically pointed out, I didn't even

state

an opinion of you until the final one. Your claim here is completely unfounded and a blatant misrepresentation of what I said.

You push irrelevant stuff like my misjudged unvote as possible scumminess when in reality it was a copy and paste gone awry.

If you want to call me mentioning it in passing 'pushing' it, then okay.

what's also telling is that once votes are made against you, you push those voting as being scummy, just a little on the side of desperation in my opinion. I mean to highlight Moss as scum for posting questions and facts! What?

Desperation? Yes! Very Desperation! Because neither you nor Maurice posted

any

evidence at all to back up your votes. So naturally I lashed out at you two to try and egg you on into actually posting something meaningful. Not a particularly resounding success so far, but not a total failure, so I won't complain.

As far as highlighting Maurice as scum for posting questions and facts, lets quote myself again!

He hasn't done anything other then ask questions

(which is fine)

and post facts. In and of itself,

thats not so bad,

but he doesn't post any opinions at all.

Well, would you look at that! I'm specifically going out of my way to say that I

don't

think its that scummy! But, I know, I took that out of context. Let me fix that.

And when I look at his ISO to try and get some clues, it gets worse. He hasn't done anything other then ask questions

(which is fine)

and post facts. In and of itself,

thats not so bad,

but he doesn't post any opinions at all. On anything. Ever. Other than, of course, that he is okay with me being lynched. I don't know about you guys, but I find that incredibly scummy -

jumping on a wagon with no foundation without even having an opinion

, let alone one on me. Clearly he seems to think I'm scum, but why?

I then go on to

specifically say

the reason I think his vote is scummy is because he's jumping on a wagon with no foundation without providing any opinions or evidence of his own. Your point here is more blatant misrepresentation of what I've said.

But you know what? Let's pretend I am calling him scummy for just posting facts and questions. I can still argue that as scummy if you'd like, its not that hard. Providing Information Instead of Analysis seems like a recognized scum strat, it even has an entry on the wiki! Granted, it's example is more for setup speculation than Maurice was doing, but the idea is the same. Posting lists of information - things we all already know - and not posting any opinions or reasoning looks like an attempt to look useful to the town while not actually being useful.

Well there it is, that's why you're scum, it's a gut call from me more than anything but I dislike your play (NOTE: your play ... not yourself)

Oh and on the inactive (note I used inactive NOT lurking, there's a HUGE difference) being Townie! Of my experiences of newbies in games, a lot of the time inactivity can come from being Vanilla Town and having nothing to sink their teeth into so slip into obscurity. Just something I've seen in games in the past, it's not always the case, but Day One I'll hold that opinion.

So please don't itallic the word literally when it quite blatantly can be justified.

Can

be justified but

wasn't

justified. Not to mention, our inactives were Pie (legit newbie, long gone), Bitmap (SE), RachMarie (IC), and more recently DMS (SE). Applying Newbie logic to people who are not newbies seems faulty to me. Unless you are claiming that even experienced players act like this in newbie games, in which I'd have to question why newbie games exist at all.


So there you have it. Blatantly misrepresenting my posts multiple times, to the point it makes me feel like you aren't actually reading my posts at all. Am I pushing votes on me as scummy? Some of them, yes. But you'll notice that doesn't extend past you and Maurice. I argued with Dessew and RachMarie's posts, but I never called them scummy. So maybe its just chance that I happened to pick you two? Even if it was, you'll notice I posted legitimate reasons for thinking your votes were scummy. And to be honest, your response doesn't make me feel any better about you. Call OMGUS if you'd like, but I'm not going to

not

call your votes scummy just because you're voting for me.

I had two posts right when I first joined trying to comment on the people already playing. I time warped the thread twice and posted my thoughts and opinions. I've been posting plenty of opinions, one of which you said you even agreed with. That actually was one of the things that made me question you. It's always nice for a mafia to have a town bonding moment. Of course I'm right on whatever it is you said that you agreed with (no I don't remember what right now) but you still pinged me with that.

You're right, I apologize. I think I lost it somewhere in the list-format of your first few posts, and after that I was too tunnel-visioned looking for anything you were saying that could support your vote for me to pay close enough attention to the rest.

But looking back over your posts, my mind isn't changing much. You still hopped on the wagon against me for no discernable reason, following someone else who likewise gave no discernable reason for voting me. Your #145, #155, and #184 are clear examples of fence sitting (something I was called out for earlier, so I would know!), and while your dedication to seeing a lynch follow through on day 1 is admirable, you aren't supposed to lynch someone for no reason at all. I'm not going to tell you to change your vote if you have legitimate reasons (though, admittedly, I do fancy living somewhat), but following along with someone else for no reason when they give no reasons is not the way to do it.


@Dessew
If you are okay with lynching someone over something you yourself said is "not very solid" on top of "a minor scumtell for non-newbs," ok.
(If you're curious, the games I observed were not on Mafiascum and were not newbie games, so this particular issue never really came up.)


@TeedyKay #212
Blatantly calling someone a liar without providing any evidence that you're right is pretty rude. Especially with all the misrepping of me in your previous post, I feel like I am better off just not believing you here.

And just to top it all off, going back to Maurice's #205

It's interesting that you see me as scummy when I've been very straight forward and am trying to hunt but don't have much to work with.

Welcome to my life.

(I've been feeling pretty sick over the past couple days, so getting 'mad' at mafia has been a real pick-me-up...for some reason or other. Thanks guys!)

[T S O]

And I now have a real scumspect.

Unvote
Vote: MauriceMoss

[MauriceMoss]

A real scumspect with no reasoning behind it? Trying to bounce around with your voting?

[T S O]

EXCELLENT, MAURICE.

In posting that, you've beautifully illustrated just why I'm voting you.

[TeedyKay]

A simple google search of Acidic Taco and mafia scum shows his attempts at starting a game. We have a confirmed liar in our midst

[Acidic_TACO]

A simple google search of Acidic Taco and mafia scum shows his attempts at starting a game. We have a confirmed liar in our midst

Wanna prove that...this is literally my first game here so either you're pulling it out of your ass or I have a twin on this site using my username...

[MauriceMoss]

EXCELLENT, MAURICE.

In posting that, you've beautifully illustrated just why I'm voting you.

Yes, thank you for that well thought out vote reasoning.

[T S O]

EXCELLENT, MAURICE.

In posting that, you've beautifully illustrated just why I'm voting you.

Yes, thank you for that well thought out vote reasoning.

Actually, that wasn't my reasoning. My reasoning's coming now.

[MauriceMoss]

As much as I would like to vote TSO I don't get a mafia read from him. I'm still suspect about TC but I think Teedy is looking worse. Of course I don't know what is going on with bitmap/replacement who really looked questionable with the random in your face posts.

I wonder if only town is posting and attacking each other. That would be funny.


Who is either not posting or afk or trying to quit:

Rach** - IC
Bitmap* - SE
Dr (recently afk)* - SE

Posting:
TSO
MM
Taco (still seems scummy for the non newb/newb card but no counterclaim)
Teedy*
TC*
Dessew- SE

So we have newbs posting who are notoriously pingy and SE & IC being afk/utr/quitting.

[MauriceMoss]

TSO you said you are SE but you aren't listed as such in the original post. Is it because you are a replacement? Is anyone else SE that I'm missing?

[TeedyKay]

A simple google search of Acidic Taco and mafia scum shows his attempts at starting a game. We have a confirmed liar in our midst

Wanna prove that...this is literally my first game here so either you're pulling it out of your ass or I have a twin on this site using my username...

http://www.superiorrp.org/t11052-superi ... me-sign-up

Please also note folks that he has changed his username since I posted my findings, but the 'edited by' at the end of the OP is damning to his original name. I've screen capped it and will upload in case he edits after this post!