Mini 1556: Greetings Without Spain (GAME OVER FAREWELL)

[Kthxbye]

We'll see d3x, we'll see.

[d3x]

Ok, so super bff PK see's something odd going on with his super bff Xay. In this post, he says he doesn't see much to go on, but he already see's possible scum Xay. Notice no vote.

No vote, except:

Gah.

vote: Xayzeck

Wait... Are you saying this was a legit Vote?

[pisskop]

Xay is L-2. The only thing I'm interested in right now is why PrivateI, kthx, Titus, piss, Kcd, and Lucresia are not voting Xay

Im still voting Titus. I was waiting for her response, and while it wasn't great its enough that I think Xay/Kthnx are the wagons of today.

@PK can you point out where d3x and kthx have been buddying? i have seen a few weird interactions that seem false but i don't remember them explicitly "buddying" each other.

Maybe buddying is the wrong word. They play up their relationship at several points in a way I think they wouldn't as a scumteam. I think one of them is scum though.

Spoiler:

I'm rl friends with d3x and we joined this game 'together' as well.

X p60- Why are you continuing this conversation?

I will let you know as time passes if d3x is scum or not

Next is this weird connection between him and Xay. d3x and I are close friends irl and play together often on this sight. If anything, I'm more suspect of him possibly being scum when I'm town than anything.

pedit:

Wait... Are you saying this was a legit Vote?

No, Im saying there was no reason to change it because it was already on.

Know what PK, explain your p197 where you group yourself and Xay as townies

This is my scumslip? Refering to Xayzeck as a 'townie' in a hypothetical about a kthnx/d3x scumteam?

So you need a breakdown of the hypothetical?

I said, loosely, that 'if kthnx and 3dx were scum together then they wouldn't team up to push Xay and I.' If kthnx/3dx are buddies, then presumably Xay isn't their buddy as well because of how hard they pushed him.

I don't think I can make this any clearer to anybody.

unvote

I will look again at my kthnx case and either vote Xay or him.

[pisskop]

I don't really feel like banging my head against a brick wall but I will if required.

174, 180, and 184. Aye. It was so quick I thought you would have expounded on it a little.

Your posts lack their usual frequency or personality, imo. But it seems to me that that is not a good tell for you.

[d3x]

What does p70 have to do with any sort of interaction with Kthx?

[d3x]

Also, why are you largely ignoring me?

[Thomith]

tbh PK i think those interactions are more of those two knowing each other like they say, i think it seems legit and they are likely the same allignment (both scum, both town if anything), don't ask me why it is just a feeling i get.
I also find it a bit unfair/"easy" to call them out for buddying when they know each other, but that is just me.

[pisskop]

What does p70 have to do with any sort of interaction with Kthx?

Sorry, I guess I quoted the wrong part. I mean this, which is representative of the kind of thing you've said to/about kthnx this game.

@Kthx- Your normal early game obvTown play and

@thom

I am not including their interactions in my reasons why I think either may be scum, I just think it indicates they aren't scum together.

[Thomith]

Not to mention, if Ika is scum, you are conf town to me cuz if you were scum with him, you'd have tossed him under the bus long ago vs trying to coach him to participate or replace out in thread. If scum has daytalk (which is common nowadays) you'd have said all the things in QT not in thread.

The only thing that seems to look like buddying is this, because this kind of looks like an attempt to use a scum ika flip to have an excuse to buddy with d3x and say they are town to get towncred if he ever flips/gets lynched (assuming the ika slot/kthx are scum together), thinking about this specific quote maybe they aren't the same allignment if this is true. Dammit i just made me unsure of my previous "they are the same allignment" statement.

[d3x]

Umm... piss...

Also, why are you largely ignoring me?

[ICEninja]

Xay scum reads me because I admitted I'm not 100% certain of a day 1 lynch.

Hrm.

The rest of the reads list is trash. He doesn't have a valid scum read on a single player. This is awful.

I've put a lot of stock in to people's wording calling themselves and others townies and such in the past but I don't think it works in this situation. It only really tracks if he's saying that we're lynching a townie when specifically only talking about Xay, as if he asked people why they're trying to lynching a townie when they vote him. If he "slipped" then he admitted that he's town and has information suggesting that Xay is town, which would only be possible if they were masons (ergo, looks more like a mason slip than a scum slip) which isn't possible.

It just looks more likely that he doesn't like either lynch.

Now I'm not saying you're wrong, I've got a slight scum read on piss myself, but I don't particularly agree that what you have found is a scum slip.

Ugh reading piss's posts just feels like he doesn't understand what is going on this game. It is really frustrating. Piss, you need to actually get reads on players and develop opinions and push a lynch. Xay I don't care about because he's already caught scum.

[Rhinox]

He is calling himself and Xay townies when as a townie, he would have no clue what Xay's alignment is.

See one sentence and now it all makes sense.

I don't think it is a scumslip though. I went looking back through PK's iso to see if he already answered so I wouldn't be giftwrapping him an out, and this:

I said, loosely, that 'if kthnx and 3dx were scum together then they wouldn't team up to push Xay and I.' If kthnx/3dx are buddies, then presumably Xay isn't their buddy as well because of how hard they pushed him.

I don't think I can make this any clearer to anybody.

is exactly the explanation I was going to offer. He didn't slip that he knows Xay is town, he was talking about a hypothetical situation where if kthx and dx3 are scum, Xay would not be. Thats not a slip, as far as I can tell.

As for why I'm not voting Xay. Well, there is the above. Add in the fact that he's at L-2 and I don't trust anyone in this game to not derp hammer while we have still have over a week left in Day 1. Also add in the fact we have one player who hasn't posted AT ALL yet and many who need to post a shit ton more.

Why are you in a hurry for this lynch to happen? Is there nothing to be gained by waiting and having those lurking post more?

If Xay is scum does it matter if there is a "derp hammer"?

I don't really subscribe to the belief that days should be drug out to deadline just because. Lynches should happen when they're ready to happen. Of course, I'm also from a time when games didn't have set deadlines from the beginning and were only imposed if the game stalled

That said, there IS a difference between being in a hurry to lynch, and asking people why they're not voting someone. This game has seemed a bit ADD. Seems beneficial to start focusing in on the top suspects and cases and stop quotewall responding to everything - especially when there's only a week left to deadline and we've been having some trouble keeping consistent activity.

[pisskop]

My case on kthnx written down:

Kthnxs non-RVS voting pattern is
13 pisskop, for RVS
48 xay, for unvoting me
58 pisskop, presumably for pressure
118 ika, naked, presumably for ika voting kthnx
131 xay, sheeps 3dx onto Xay again
149 KCD, is his 1v1 on KCD
198 pisskop, for 'scumslip'

erratic, but he seems to prefer those who are popular targets or scumreadng him.

His playstyle is an aggressive one, so keeping that in mind:

I saw that he felt the need to say his last RVS vote switched which, IMO, is him explaining that he is voting someone else in THIS rendition of RVS and recognizing in the RVS vote post it before anyone can question him about it. Look at it this way, I didn't RVS you first again this go around and didn't feel a need to address it when I didn't do it. Opposite ways of going about re-RVS. Opposite ways of going about it could lead to opposite thought processes. Opposite thought processes could lead to opposite alignments. Opposite alignments leads to him being scum.

I still don't understand this, or the merit in it. Can somebody explain it? :/

His pushes on kcd seem unwarranted and over a playstyle rather than its content. Contrast to Titus' that focuses on his content.
He goes from 47 to post 66

...Too hard to tell VI from scum.....

in which he calls out KCDs rationalism (KCD clearly doesn't want to quicklynch anyone, but that doesn't stop kthnx from strawmanning it up). Also of note is suggesting that his reads are subject to change as he 'figures' out VI from scum.

He downplays the case on him in 106. It was best put forth in post 99, however its scattered all over the page.

The single most offputting post he has made thus far:

I will lynch you in a heartbeat if I think you're scum and you will do the same. I guess I'll sheep you for the moment onto

. My issue is the tone. It, to me, comes off as a vague threat coupled with promising reassurance. Putting other people on edge and then agreeing with them is a way to keep them docile. It manipulates the relationship in that he took an implied rule and used it for towncredits.

Post 144 is him having to be reminded that different playstyles exist, which he seems to acknowledge in 82 and later in 200. twice in 200.

151 is his 1v1 of kcd, which he abandoned as soon as he saw a better opportunity (and that it didn't have much support).

Really d3x? really? you agree with all that bullshit post with his bullshit case is legit somehow? WTF... and I thought we were friends.

how did I miss this in my 'buddying' text above? :/ that's cool, here. Downplaying more cases on him.

198 is the scumslip he has been pushing to the present.

More later, much more, but this had to be pointed out.

pisskop: Prob scum. A total of one post from this slot that had me reading his as town (p115). First thing that sticks out is him not even looking at those on his wagon for possible scum. This is the complete opposite of what I see wagoned town (including myself) tend to do. Next is this weird connection between him and Xay. d3x and I are close friends irl and play together often on this sight. If anything, I'm more suspect of him possibly being scum when I'm town than anything. The complete opposite is found from PK in regards to Xay's alignment culminating in his scum slip in p197 lumping himself in with Xay as "townies". There is absolutely no way (barring Masons which I doubt this game has) that he could know Xay's alignment without being scum and either KNOWING Xay is town or trying to make them both out to be town while they are both scum. My opinion at the moment is he should be today's lynch.

:/

After Titus asks for clarification on the scumslip he writes a full case on me in [url=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5734055234[/url]and then continues to try to shove his case down any wordhole he can find.

To continue on buddying, in 252 I made a small list of quotes:

Spoiler:

I'm rl friends with d3x and we joined this game 'together' as well.

X p60- Why are you continuing this conversation?

I will let you know as time passes if d3x is scum or not

Next is this weird connection between him and Xay. d3x and I are close friends irl and play together often on this sight. If anything, I'm more suspect of him possibly being scum when I'm town than anything.

Swap post 70 for 164 and you have four fine examples of potential buddying to me.


^^Not sure what is going on with the spoiler quote . . .

[Lucresia]

After catching up on 5-6 pages of walls from 2 days I missed..I think we have enough info to lead us into day 2. I don't know that xay is scum or not. What I do know is that his lynch will provide a lot of analysis tomorrow based on people leading the lynch. @ice -- posting about "old" stuff because that's as far up as I was caught up. What kind of townie gets on people for posting their thoughts on day 1? If xay is scum and you aren't on the vote list we will have found scum for day2. If xay is town, I'll have a bunch of leads tomorrow based on these people driving this lynch.

Vote: xay

[pisskop]

-on Xay

First, only 17 posts. of a current 262.

Reflexive unvote on a wagon in 38. It was L-3, however he claims he though it was L-1 as per 9 player newbie games.

This

Also, pkop and I will probably buddy quite a bit this game, because we chose to join together. It's up to you to decide if it's alignment indicative for this game

is a standout statement, however imo it reflects better with the genuineness of his personality. I think him stating we will be buddying up is worse than him telling you that you'll have to deal with it, but that's just me.

if I do actually buddy him a lot and he flips scum I don't get mislynched.

:/ This is an upsetting sentiment.

in 160 there are two things that upset me.
He sheeps without a reason and proclaims he is town. Both are slightly scummy in my eyes.

217 was an admission of defeat. Either as a town giving up or scum.

Overall I can see scum motivation in it, and its hard to ignore the combined cases of posts like 205 and 212.

I'm claiming intent.

[pisskop]

Umm... piss...

Also, why are you largely ignoring me?

I don't think I've been ignoring you, just focused elsewhere.
To me, you are nullscum. You have some good and some bad posting, and I'm watching you the same way I watch any nullscum individual.

Ugh. Why do you insist on being such a passive player? Why don't you ask me something instead of 'waiting' on something. Maybe it's just a playstyle difference, but this kind of stuff just feels like a huge copout. Also, why have you not responded to anything I said in p143? I'd think that if you're interested in me as Scum, you wouldn't pass up the chance to delve into a discussion I'm having... with you.

143 Linky

RVS died super early. Forgiving a post or two here or there, it was done by p13/14.

In the very early game, esp in a game where many people don't know each other, its easy to find faux reasons people are or aren't scummy. Its much more reliable to reference RVS/early game after time has passed and use it to support more founded cases.

If you felt like dropping an OMGUS on me, so be it. Overall, I think you should have posted the gut feelings you had on others. How are we supposed to get a read on you and how are you supposed to interact with others if you're not going to post. Doing anything else is {active}Lurking. Saying you had 'nothing to go off of' is clearly not the same as 'having gut feelings'. Why did you not want to participate in the discussion with your 'gut feelings', thus pushing us further from the RVS that you deem to be largely worthless?

I don't think I was actively lurking. I just didn't have any substantial content to post. Gut Reads have gotten me lynched in other games, when I presented them. Aside, by withholding my gutreads I give them time to grow into provable connections. Presenting them early can alter the behaviors of those I am watching.

especially when letting the interactions continue provides way more valuable information.

The above is about how I feel about it.

In reference to how you gain reads, I asked what your biggest contribution had been. Since you have since said that you gain reads by gauging reactions, why were you not trying to get those reactions?

I am. I ask questions, and I watch responses. I freely admit I am a somewhat passive player, and have been told by more aggressive players I should be more pushy with my pushing ( :/ ). That is, that I should be presenting cases sooner and giving the target less time to respond with appeals.

-Your reaction to Aisa in p69 is based off of the 1st 3 pages, but you waited for someone to call you out on not producing content before you posted it.
-Your further discussion with Aisa in p75 is based off of stuff from the 1st 3 pages.
-You finally gave a reaction to my push on you page 1 in p115. You also talk about your progressing read on Xay, which has roots in the 1st 3 pages.

Aisa hasn't posted enough to really understand her, and she asked me questions about the first three pages. I responded to her.
And imo Xay's scummiest content comes well after 100 posts. his early play is made relevant to his later play, not the other way around.


In short, I don't think I am playing terribly, just in a passive manner more suited for analysis than playing a social game.

[pisskop]

vote: Xay

pm me when you want to play together again.

[Xayzeck]

Hahaha sorry pkop, I think it'll be a thing where I'm lynched D1 every game with you :b

But yeah I'm town. My strongest scumreads are kinda OMGUS, but I'd say ICE.

[pisskop]

Can you point out a few posts?

Also, who else?

[Kthxbye]

Hammering while a replacement hasnt even posted...seriously?

Did you miss all the reasons for not ending the day at this moment or something?!

Youre so scum.

[Kcdaspot]

you know what? i was actually having second thoughts about kthxscum for the past couple of days but ive been busy so i couldnt post...

im back to where is was now. ill answer the case when i can but college 8 week class.

[Kthxbye]

you know what? i was actually having second thoughts about kthxscum for the past couple of days but ive been busy so i couldnt post...

im back to where is was now. ill answer the case when i can but college 8 week class.

[Titus]

Wow... reading now. Glad to have this problem.

[Titus]

After catching up on 5-6 pages of walls from 2 days I missed..I think we have enough info to lead us into day 2. I don't know that xay is scum or not. What I do know is that his lynch will provide a lot of analysis tomorrow based on people leading the lynch. @ice -- posting about "old" stuff because that's as far up as I was caught up. What kind of townie gets on people for posting their thoughts on day 1? If xay is scum and you aren't on the vote list we will have found scum for day2. If xay is town, I'll have a bunch of leads tomorrow based on these people driving this lynch.

Vote: xay

This vote is unsettling due to the fact the reasoning could just as likely apply to Pisskop as well as Xay. It says a lot but does nothing.

I think we may be choosing between two scums here.

Thom's attack on me doesn't feel right though. He makes a big stink about how I am the only one arguing kthx town and implies for that reason I am whiteknighting him. He implies that if I am right, I must be scum. I'm thinking I might have judged his slot too quickly.

Checking votes but planning to vote Pisskop unless I'd be hammer. Then intent to hammer. Will move to Xay at deadline if needed though.

[Titus]

VOTE: Pisskop