Mini 1563 - Vampire: The Masquerade Mafia (Fourth Evening)

[Squirrel Girl]

Helloooooo!

Claim: Miller

Yeah, so there's that. Also, I'll admit I'm reading into it a little bit, but basically my role PM says I'll detect as a human. I'm guessing Ghouls will too, or maybe there's a True Faith hunter in the mix or something, who knows. But I figure when the town is vampires detecting as a human to detecting powers is pretty much being a Miller. If nothing else, anyone with a investigate power can just presume they'll get a human result on me and we can move on from there.

Vote: Spyrex

I'm sheeping Kagami because I'm pretty sure Ghouls would benefit from Diablerie, and therefore an open claim of 'don't nom me for Diablerie' is functionally weakening scum in two different ways if Kagami is scum. Therefore I think Kagami is pretty much confirmed town, and certainly confirmed enough to not be lynched today. I'd probably be willing to lynch either Goodfather or Aronis too simply because they didn't choose to assess that rather important post by Kagami and just slid along with RVS. Weak reads, but that's what I've got there.

[Squirrel Girl]

I'm town! Or whatever we are called.

What are we called?

[Squirrel Girl]

Also, I'm trying to sound clever, so I suppose I should clarify that the above should read as; what are "we" called.

[Squirrel Girl]

@Squirell got some flavour with that claim?

I certainly do. Except that I also think it's pretty clear I am not full claiming. I am claiming an affect related to my role PM, that I am a Miller. It is important that I claim this out of the gate because it will help town focus itself more usefully with any human detecting powers. That was the reason for that part of my claim. However, I am unaware of myself being under suspicion, so I don't see the value in full claiming at this stage nor do I really understand why you want me to. Is there some advantage I'm overlooking? If it's helpful to town I could full claim, but I'm pretty sure that's not helpful right at this stage. Can you explain what I'm missing?

Displaced could also die today based on his suggesting we let the ghouls know who to kill by voting publicly who get's diablerie.
[Squirrel Chop!]
I'd add Lady Lamb to this mix for today at least in my opinion.

Okay, so Displaced is scmmy for wanting open votes. Lady Lamda is townish for suggesting clan claim. Both of these acts appear to be along similar lines - exposing info which is of potential risk to let scum know for the benefit of town learning/coordinating something. Why is it a town tell for one of them and a scum tell for the other?

Unvote: Spyrex
Vote: Kthxbye

I could also lynch Aronis. I think Spyrex is...well, he easily could be scum but he at least looks town enough at this stage and, let's be honest, isn't going to be lynched Day 1 off a pressure wagon.

[Squirrel Girl]

I will say the Thundercats logo makes me not want to lynch Kthnkbye. But I am able to overcome such hurdles with work, fear me, *rawr*!

[Squirrel Girl]

you're dumb. If you can't see the difference between letting the scum know our diablerie and letting the scum know our clan claims, you're just dumb.

http://youtu.be/Vg4JRGO3U3g?t=7m49s


But, no, seriously, besides getting really excited to call me stupid, I'm not sure why my stance is so bad. Yes, I agree that giving them info on how we vote might be bad since they could target people who are about to get an infusion of vitae. But, at the same time I'm not sure why then discussing clan claims is going to be helpful. I'm not sure what info that would gain town and, again, it is info that scum could use as well. I'm curious why one is a scum ell and the other is a town tell, I suppose now I'm also curious why me asking about it is a freak out tell for you.

Also, what's your read on Kthxbye?

Since I am getting voted and flavor claims aren't that important(?).

I am Sasha Vykos, Tzimisce, 6th Generation.

Why claim this if you think it's meaningless?
On a random note, Vykos is the man...well, the woman...the 'it'?

What's your read on Kthxbye?

Not asking for full claim just flavour, mainly because I know the game itself (and know that you do to based off your comment in the sign ups) and struggling to think of reasons for a vampire that would "detect as human" that would fit with the flavour. That being said, it is quite a while since I played any of the Storyteller games, so I could just be having a senior moment ...

I could think of a number of possibilities just off the top of my head. Maybe I'm a Mummy. Maybe I'm a dhampir. Maybe a thin blood. Maybe an Ananasi. Maybe a yang imbalanced Kuei-jin. maybe I'm a ghoul and want to claim loyal ghoul. There are dozens of possible explanations and the above are simply ones where I'd still arguably be able to pass as a Vampire, it doesn't even touch on the possibilities wherein I'm something else. If all you want is a flavor claim out of curiosity pick one of the above and run with it. If you think the question has pro-town purpose then let me know the purpose and I'll gladly answer.

What's your read on Kthxbye?

[Squirrel Girl]

Also it looks like your flavour memory is much stronger than mine...

kthxbye should have more sympathy for the silliness of others and your point on his me/LLD stance seems reasonable but null is where im at really

Why is it null to you if you admit there's an oddness to it? Do you have any particular reads at this point? I've flat out called someone confirmed town - do you have any opinion about that? What about some of the other things happening? I feel like you locked on to a really minor point (flavor with Miller claim) and basically avoided a lot of other stuff, which makes my squirrel sense chitter around you.

[Squirrel Girl]

SG, darling, could you please point out where I said LL's comment of claiming clans was the reason I threw her in the D1P1 town pool?

Well, darling, if it's not I'm not sure why you did. She had only made one post at that stage, and the post called the diablerie thing dumb and presented her clan claim idea. The other option is that it was calling Displaced's plans dumb that got her in the town pool? Or doing both actions (making me at least half right and this response kinda weird)? Or something else? I mean, you can clear it up for me, but I honestly thought I was applying the more reasonable stance even though I didn't think it made much sense. So, darling, would you like to stop beating the heck out of the bush and just say what you mean if you wish to clarify your stance?

That said, Disturbed's bending to your will is noted though so I guess your throwing words in my mouth was semi useful.

This is a sideways attack on me for voting you, isn't it? I'll at least note that he hasn't voted you, so he hasn't succumbed to my will yet. Clearly my Dominate and Presence are lacking here. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here other than just mud slinging though. It's pretty normal to express reads on players and then to try to convince other player's that your reads are normal, so I'm not sure what your issue/point/boggle is.

[Squirrel Girl]

Hey, Kagami, wanna sheep me? I have a fuzzy ail, how can I be wrong?

[Squirrel Girl]

Just close your eyes and succumb to the nutty goodness.

[Squirrel Girl]

Mission accomplished

[Squirrel Girl]

SG, darling, how LL blatentently calling out of how telling scum who we would vote for was a stupid idea was why I threw her in as town for now. Its not solid but it was page 1 and doesnt seem faked (or like scum looking for town points).

She also called me stupid, seems like her default reaction to stuff.

The disturbed being molded is a scum point for him not you and not a sideways attack (though i can see how you thought that). I have you as town for now as well regardless that your voting me.

How did he let me mold him though? I asked him about something and he was all like 'I see that, but I'll call it null anyway' that's sort of the opposite of molding, isn't it?

[Squirrel Girl]

@SG- Are you a Human {nonVampire} or do you just detect that way?

I detect as Human, as stated. I did not indicate whether I was or wasn't Human, Vampire, or anything else. I'm not sure what the value in clarifying that is. Is there one?

I really dislike Aronis's p26. Not only does he ignore SG's arguably very important question, he drops what could very easily be a FakeClaim propted by 3 RVS Votes {given, some may be legit, but still...}, HandWaves the flavor while ignoring someone else's assertion that it matters, and adds nothing to the conversation. This is a scummy floater post if I've ever seen one.

I agree with this.

Agreed that 26 could be eagerness to use a fake-claim, but I'm reading it as legit for now. At the very least, he's claimed an important/powerful vampire whom I'm unwilling to lynch on day 1.

I'm not sure why that name claim should mean much to us, really. I'm not voting the guy and I'll admit I'm not sure if I even will, but I'm not sure why the name alone is a free pass for the Day.

Kthx answered the question for him, so I'm not bothered that he didn't do it himself.

Doesn't that make you want to vote Kthxbye though?

[Squirrel Girl]

What are the reasons of otherness?

[Squirrel Girl]

I figured it as RVS tomfoolery and ignored it, myself. It didn't seem very exciting or alignment telling to me.

@VonnyBoy - what is the scumtell there in your eyes?

@Kingfish - You're feeling really disconnected to me right now. not Monkeyman levels of disconnected, but still pretty darn disconnected. Do you have some thoughts, opinions, questions? Like, say, what's your read on the Kthxbye wagon? It's sort of a thing, it exists, people are interacting over it. Could you weigh in there please and thank you?

[Squirrel Girl]

Oh, VonFlare Boy, the game, the game is calling
From vote to vote, and down discussion's side,
RVS's gone, and all the vitaes falling,
It's you, it's you must post and I must bide.

But come ye back when prodded by the mod here,
Or when hammer vote is waiting to go,
And I'll be here in paranoia and in fear,
Oh, VonFlare Boy, oh VonFlare Boy, I’ll vote you so!

But if ye come, offer thoughts with tongue a’waggin’,
If I am lynched, as lynched I well may be,
Ye'll come and find that scum were on my wagon,
And point and say a ‘lynch them’ there for me;

And I shall hear, through the Dead QT bombast,
Where others will call town a failure,
But you will get sheeped and crush the scum at last,
And the QT shall say always listen to her!

[Squirrel Girl]

if we can crack the nut enough

However, I really don't want to lose sight of Aronis. I think we're getting too far afield already.

Look at your PM. Look at the wincon.

Then look at those two posts. We got a live one that flavor fucked themselves.

I do not really disagree with this. That all said...what do you think of Kthxbye's reaction to the same?

[Squirrel Girl]

I found what Aronis did scummy, and called him on it, but it feels more like a straw grasp scumslip than a legit sort of case. Am I just being foolish? You seem really bought into it, so...I should be too?

[Squirrel Girl]

I'm not calling you scummy for the flavor claim, I'm calling you scummy for the way you worded what team you're on. I'm also hardly the one baying for your blood though most (though I'll admit in being interested to hear more about it). Does that clear up my stance for you?

Also, what's your read on Kthxbye?

[Squirrel Girl]

Does your wincon and/or role name state without doubt your nature?

[Squirrel Girl]

Like, say you didn't know what a given clan name was, or even what a clan name was. That would be the 'without doubt' thing.

[Squirrel Girl]

While I mostly agree, understand that there are things he can be that are not vampires and still town, assuming Ghouls are scum (which is a rather large assumption, but one that seems fair?).

Ghouls are explicitly mentioned in the fluff as the scum. I don't think hat's much of an assumption at all.

Also, I don't think there's much value in insulting D3x, let's not do that? This is the Prince's domain after all, and he likes to keep order, and too many insults could unleash the beast

Until I know I'm not going to die within five pages of the start, I have no reason to put effort into helping you idiots find scum.

Why not? Just because other people are idiots I'm not sure why that should stop the game from being played. But, I will admit (and I am often called an idiot) that I'm not sure why your current wagon is so bad. Can you talk me through why it's obviously a wagon of idiots? Like, what have you done that should make people not be voting you? Can you give me an example of someone who is scummier than you that more people should be voting?

@D3xie - Have you played with Lady Lambda and Spyrex before? They appear mildly attached at the hip in a weird way and I'm trying to figure out why. If it's a normal thing I could at least shrug and walk away from it. Do you have any insight in that regard?

[Squirrel Girl]

but name is flavour, how is it not? I cant see how you would make the distinction?

I have to admit, I'm not sure where this conversation is going. I don't see any value for either of you to have your stance as scum and not as town, so...can't we just agree we consider the definitions different and walk away? Unless one of you finds the other scummy for some aspect that this will solve.

I think I want kats to die the most but I dont think it's for alignment related reasons

Bad! Bad displaced!

"It seems to me that he is hinting at wanting the diablarie, and it seems that ghouls would want the diablarie so that the vampires would not have enough to survive."

I could see that. I suppose functionally it was the same in this game though as just dropping a PR hint. I don't think I agree with you about how worthy it is as a vote, but I understand where you're coming from. Thanks!

[Squirrel Girl]

I have displaced, VonnyBoy, and d3x all as town now in my head. My head is pretty dense too, so it's probably stuck like that.

[Squirrel Girl]

Personally, I don't see what all the fuss is about Kthx. Did he do something scummy? maybe I missed it.

Mostly I don't like the cut of his jib. He feels like he's picking on easy targets and is reactive attacking anything that questions him. I don't feel like he's trying to scumhunt and he feels a little obstructive to me. That's about all I got, it's pretty thin, but the only other real vibe I got to dig on is Lady Lamba being mean to some while also buddying others or Aronis and the question of his roleslip. Neither of those feels really runaway to me either, so I'm interested in exploring the Kthxbye one.

[Squirrel Girl]

@SG- Why is vonflare Town {specifically before posting reads just now}?

I can understand his scumhunting, and he appears focused on doing his own thing. I ping town on both points.

[Squirrel Girl]

Random thought as far as diablerie goes.

We could always agree to vote to push diablerie votes onto a lurker/scummy. Worst case scenario is this sends vitae to a scum player - something scum can probably orchestrate with unorganized voting regardless. Best case this sends an infusion of vitae to a town player who scum now need to consider killing who, otherwise, they would have happily ignored.

This actually sounds stupid enough to be brilliant! What do other people think?

[Squirrel Girl]

[Squirrel Girl]

I know it's an assumption, but why do you think scum wouldn't get a diablerie vote?

[Squirrel Girl]

If I'm right or mostly right, 96 is incredibly town-mindset.

I thought that post looked pretty townsided even if you're wrong.

That said, this does make sense, scum probably don't have diablerie votes unless there's some other aspect of the setup we're not aware of yet. That could still leave picking a nullish option as a sort of awkward Vig shot an interesting possibility though.

[Squirrel Girl]

If I'm right, there are breaking strategies available~

[Squirrel Girl]

Fucking god please stop this.

I'm sorry you have no love in your heart.

[Squirrel Girl]

Until I know I'm not going to die within five pages of the start, I have no reason to put effort into helping you idiots find scum.

Why not? Just because other people are idiots I'm not sure why that should stop the game from being played. But, I will admit (and I am often called an idiot) that I'm not sure why your current wagon is so bad. Can you talk me through why it's obviously a wagon of idiots? Like, what have you done that should make people not be voting you? Can you give me an example of someone who is scummier than you that more people should be voting?

Hey Aronis, sweety-poo, there were some questions for you!

[Squirrel Girl]

I did give reads with basic explanations.

You gave out a lot of null reads. You actually gave out no scumreads despite finding your wagon as bad as you claim to. What are you going to do to sort your null reads out and maybe find scum?

My wagon had no logical explanation behind it. It was based off of an RVS post and I still don't understand it. They were voting me for claiming town. Which is pathetic. It only reeks of their incapabilities in the art of scumhunting.

So you don't think anyone voting you is particularly scum or town, just bad at scumhunting...but you also don't have any particular scum reads? Why, then, is it odd for them to be willing to vote you for a nullish act? If no one looks like scum then why not pressure someone just to see what happens?

[Squirrel Girl]

So you think scum is possibly a lurker?

Well, doesn't that mean you can rule out (or catch) scum in the active posters who you can see a lot of their opinions? Also, if you want to force a lurker to post more, probably asking them pointed questions or voting them and suggesting they're lurk scum would tend to make them have to muster a response, yes? I mean, maybe that's why people are voting you? I know it's why I'm asking you questions - you appear to be playing in a way to avoid giving many opinions or thoughts and it's making you hard to read for me. That's why I'm asking you so many questions and trying to force you to give thoughts. You're still making it hard, but that's what I'm doing here - couldn't you do the same to the people you're having issues with?

[Squirrel Girl]

Not I, said the squirrel.

[Squirrel Girl]

Vote: Monkeyman

[Squirrel Girl]

Vote: Monkeyman

And I assume you plan on explaining?

What do you need me to explain? Do you think he's town? Or are you interested in voting him if I give you a few talking points? I could be interested in that, I suppose. Let me know.

[Squirrel Girl]

Why are you taking exception to her Vote, but not mine?

Probably because I'm way more fun to interact with

But this is actually a good point...I'm not sure what it would mean, but it is odd. But, isn't the only way it's an issue is that you'd be Aronis' scumpartner?

He's pretty much null. Like the majority of everyone else.

I could be persuaded. Maybe.

Why do you think he defended you and even didn't seem to understand the fairly obvious case on you when he did so?

[Squirrel Girl]

And Kthxbye maybe? The one who has been least active. Don't think I'm not judgy-judging him for i either.

[Squirrel Girl]

If I was defending Aronis, I could see the logic behind linking us, but I'm not. This, like most of what has gone on so far in this thread, is grasping at straws.

You did defend him though, you cut down and diminished the wagon on him. You could call it 'attacking the reasons to suspect Aronis' if you prefer, but I'm pretty sure it's the same thing.

Also, ooooh, suddenly my select the random mid-ling player plot sounds brilliantly stupid again!

[Squirrel Girl]

Ok, if you say so.

You're wrong though.

Specifically how am I wrong? You're quite dismissive here but actually provide no evidence to support your stance.

@Kagami - so then we're left with the question of which muddy middle of the roader to nom. It's kind of a sadly big list right at this moment.

[Squirrel Girl]

How about we just get d3x to declare who gets diablerie. It's a test of him, it will keep it centralized for decision making, I don't think anyone is calling him likely scum at this stage, and if he really wants it to go to him at that point, I'm fine with that.

Thoughts?

[Squirrel Girl]

You're a total Debbie Downer.

[Squirrel Girl]

Why do you oppose the idea?

[Squirrel Girl]

I also don't like letting d3x decide it unilaterally, and I don't think d3x should be nommed.

d3x nom would just mean he get's NKed, no question. Someone else nommed forces scum to either kill the nom, and we get to keep d3x, or they kill d3x and we have a living diablerist.

We're doing single nom. Pool makes no sense.

At the end of the day, a single nom makes sense. I think we can all agree on that (except Vonny-boy, but no one is listening to him) So, all a single nom will be is that someone will make a suggestion and a rough plurality will agree. So, really, to a degree, a single person is going to make the nom, and all the other people are doing is agreeing with the nom - with my D3x comment all I'm asking is for people to agree to the nom*er* as opposed to the nom*ee* It really works out to about the same thing.

Also, if D3x wants to nom himself, so what? I'm sure he understands that puts him at risk for a night kill. Does he have a power that precludes that? What if he's scum and they can't kill him at all? What if he's a 3rd party? There are a lot of possibilities there, and some are bad and some are good, but all of them will give us information based on what happens. Plus, if he gets another Daykill effect we could always obligate him to direct it on pain of lynch or something, which, again, benefits us and provides info.

The downside? He's town, noms himself, has no way to protect himself, and scum NK him. Which...is the downside that can happen with any town nom and the only change is that we might nom someone who otherwise scum wouldn't have bothered to kill. I'm pretty okay with that risk What do you see as the big downside I'm missing?

Split alive into two groups each voting for a person - right now at 12 alive unless it was for scum scum can't swing the vote. This doesn't eliminate the possibility of scum just killing the winner (which they would know) but it also tightens coordination and if scum DONT have actual votes or manipulate it another way we'd know.

By Word of Mod - scum specifically have votes.

Aronis is going all the way around the horn to too obvious a bag to be actual scum.

For me I have to say it's going the other way - I feel like he's trying too hard to appear too scummy to be scummy. Have you ever played with him before as either alignment? I haven't..

[Squirrel Girl]

And I am not a fan of Squirrel claim. Miller claim is most usual claim to escape from early lynch.

It's also the most usual claim of Millers also. How many times have you seen scum fakeclaim Miller?

[Squirrel Girl]

Squirrel - I dont recall but not all miller claims are true. So i ll be open to consider all possiblities.

Well, you must have seen at least one in order to have it bug you. Maybe a ballpark percentage of your experience? 50% of all Miller claims are scum or something? I know I've never seen a Day 1 Miller claim from scum, but I am pretty new at the game so what do I know. You've seen it quite a bit though, right? That's why you find me questionable, right?

[Squirrel Girl]

Since you didn't express much doubt of my claim - I'm not sure what it is worth, but that's good to know I suppose

[Squirrel Girl]

That feels like a weird question to ask for a game of this size and page count.

[Squirrel Girl]

Why is that a weird question exactly?

13 pages, Mini game, you were here for part of it. How many topics of interest (and questions to you) were you expecting that people would need to mention them to ensure you addressed them? It feels fake help-y. Like, when you say it, it sounds help-y and town-y and other positive-y y-words. But, when you stop and think about it...it really doesn't make a lot of sense to bother asking in the first place.

Why am I "alright" (assuming you mean townish?) when I am one that called you out for not knowing the town are Vampires and if you were town you'd know this?

Yeah, as long as we ignore Spyrex and myself, you were the one calling him out.

Is there a reason you wanted to explore wagoning me while I was V/LA?

I wasn't aware I needed your vote to wagon you.

Also, if you were really wanting to explore me (wagoning me would be a better term here), why did you ignore that Aronis never answered your question in p66 until d3x asked him again and he answered in p91?

I dunno, I don't claim to have perfect recall of everything I say and do in the game. if you do, that's awesome for you, but I certainly don't. I'm guessing I forgot because either time passed between asking the question and the next time he showed up - or I did/saw something that distracted me. It's certainly not like I stopped trying to get info out of his slot, so at that stage, if I can ask him questions and get info, and seem to want to do that, then I don't get your point here. Either I wanted the info and forgot, or if I didn't want to explore that info I clearly was capable of asking him stuff without ever bringing it up and I didn't need to ask it in the first place. Why do *you* think I "ignored" his dodge? Functionally, if we prove he dodged, that ties him awkwardly to you, not to me, so I'm curious to hear what your working theory on this question is.

Page 6...are you guys fucking serious with the "do scum get votes or not?"?!!!! Does nobody read MOD posts before posting their stupid ass comments and wasting space? FFS.

Don't be a meanie-pants.

[Squirrel Girl]

You apparently need a lot more than my vote to wagon me....It's prolly because everyone else saw that I was V/LA.

Maybe so - so what?

The point is about making connections. The point is noting this stuff as it comes around in the event of my untimely demise so that it doesn't just sit in my notes. I'm not going to even attempt to figure out what is going on in your head, dear. And you're incorrect, he dodged and YOU ignored that he dodged it, which ties it to you doll.

How? Like, what was my scum gain in ignoring his dodge? Is the logic that he's my scumbuddy? Well, okay, why wouldn't I point that out then and use it to tie you to him? Seriously, what is the scum motivation you see here?

Now that we are done with that, what are your opinions/reads/thoughts on Aronis, AA, and Kat? Also, what did you think of LL and Kag's p267 and p269?

Aronis - scummy, as I thought I'd made clear?
AA - I agree with the general dissatisfaction with her play, I'd be okay lynching her but wouldn't lead it.
Kat - Same boat as AA.
267-269 - It's info, but has no framework to draw anything from it at this stage. Doesn't matter to me much as Kags is totes confirmed town for me, and the only alignment info seems to be possible connections with her, but I'm not going to buy them regardless of what Aronis flips.

[Squirrel Girl]

@Aronis - do you honestly believe that voting a dead person is a valid reason to want to policy lynch them? That's really no worse or of less info than someone who isn't voting anyone, right?

[Squirrel Girl]

This is the second game I have played with Katsuki. This is the second pathetic useless idiotic performance I've seen. I am not moving my vote.

As far as I can tell Kats was town in that game...so basically you're saying the play here is identical to Kats' town play and want people to vote Kats because of that?

-Scum screw up. That's how they get caught. Could it be you were too busy trying to look town and forgot the questions you ask people as you already know alignments...maybe...again, it's pointed out for future reference.

It wasn't pointed out for reference - you specifically asked me about it, as though my answer might mean something. Now you're trying to tell me I'd be less forgetful if I was town? Or am I misunderstanding the tell?

-Where is your vote? You have Aronis as scummy, AA as poor play so far as well as Kat yet you have not thrown down a vote or built an actual case for anyone. Lots of questions with no follow up. Tick tock, times at less than a week. Take a stance with a vote.

I think I've taken a fair amount of stances. I'm not sure where I want my vote at the moment. If I knew who my top scumread was I'd be voting them already.

Kthx: Slight town read

You had him as just straight town before - what changed?

[Squirrel Girl]

SG: tbh, 2/3 of what you post makes me think town scumhunting. The other 1/3 makes me think scum trying to defuse scum wagons. The fact you are focusing me while keeping your vote clear of the scummy posting of Aronis, Kat, and now Mnemonic looks like distancing.....but you came in and claimed Miller out the gate. I don't know what to think about you. I think I'm leaning town due to your posting here and your posting in Book of Shadows being similar. You replaced in that one so some things are different, but.....sigh, I don't know. Either way, you're on the back burner for today.

This doesn't actually say that much. Yes, wonderful, you suspect me for reasons and don't suspect me for other reasons, yippee!

I did ask you a specific question though, and you didn't answer it.
Just as added amusement, you also asked Mnemonic for an explanation of reads, and he dodged the question and you didn't notice or follow up...are you scum now in your own reads list?

Pwning over here!

What do you think of Mnemonic's 355 in reference to knowing d3x vig'ed and trying to communicate with the dead?

Why would scum him be aware of a dayvig and also talk to dead town whereas town him wouldn't?
Obviously he did what you're talking about, and obviously that came about because he was quick skimming isos to get reads. Does he not do that as town? If he doesn't, I'd happily vote him with you, but if he does then I don't get how it's remotely scummy at all.

Hmm... Well that is interesting. One post missed about dayvig target and suddenly I am scum.

Yes vonflare, my read did go full circle. I read you as town to begin with, but re-read and decided that you were more scummy.

You also missed my question to you about the shift on Kthx - could you clarify that please and thank you?

[Squirrel Girl]

Scum has reason to pretend they didn't read the dayvigging, and make comments about the scumminess of the dayvigged; town really doesn't. He was caught acting.

But he admitted awareness of the Dayvig...so... I'm really not getting this. So, he wanted to fake a read on a player who got dayvigged, knew he had actually been dayvigged, but wanted to pretend like he hadn't read well enough to know there was a dayvig and posted earlier in the same post about that dayvig.

That's the scumtell? Please, walk me through this, because I feel like I'm the crazy one here because everyone else is loving this thing and I'm just shrugging my shoulders at it.

@Squirrel My shift on kthx was because of my re-read through his iso. He seemed to be not doing anything, blaming everything on his v/la, even after it was over, like he didn't want us to pay much attention to him.

Why did you solid town read him prior to that?

[Squirrel Girl]

I'd prefer to just let d3x nom and have that be the call on who we vote.
I'd be willing to group nom LLD if no one else is willing to back the d3x plan.

[Squirrel Girl]

-What specific question?

The specific question was for my scum motivation in the ask a question, don't get an answer, avoid pointing out the lack of answer moment. I'm trying to understand what situation you see, where I am scum, and would choose to do that for scum game via lying about it. You haven't answered that.

-As for your added amusement, check again. I asked in p339, he answered in his very next post with a reads list...so.....uh....misrep much?

I'm going to shorten these down to one question just to make my point.
Here's you asking a question and his answer.

Kthx is town to me now.

Why?

Kthx: Slight town read

You're telling me that's a good answer for what you asked?

OK, SG, how bout this, walk me through how mnemonic's play has been town and specifically, how him referencing d3x's dayvig to get his read on d3x and then trying to pressure the dead to post more is a town tell or even null?

I never said it was a town tell. I think I have advanced that it's null - I think it's null because I don't see the scum benefit in doing what he did and having to lie about it and that is why I'm asking to have the pro-scum advantage explained to me. Since I don't see it. I mean, what's the value? He's trying to intentionally look like he's not reading or something? I don't get it - I have openly admitted to not getting it. I have asked people to explain it to see if I can get it enough to agree or disagree.

Can you explain it now, please and thank you?

[Squirrel Girl]

Hey guys, she promised, we can totes trust her now!

[Squirrel Girl]

-I did in fact answer this

-Scum screw up. That's how they get caught. Could it be you were too busy trying to look town and forgot the questions you ask people as you already know alignments

There is no scum-motivation to be had. It's messing up and not following up on things you're pretending to care about that is the scum-tell. Seeing scum-motivation in posts isn't the only thing that finds scum.

Wouldn't "forgetting" be...literally equally applicable as either alignment - making this null, right? Why would I be more forgetful of a push that I made as scum than a push I made as town?

-As for you shortening things down on his read on me, no, it wasn't a good answer...but guess what, you asked the question about it before I even posted again. I'm sorry, was I supposed to ask the same question you had just asked?

So you liked all his other answers to your questions? You asked a couple, you liked them all except that one?

Is it possible town-MD forgot his read on d3x went to prob town due to the Monkey kill and then didn't look over his post before posting....maybe, but add in other posts such as

Hmm... Well that is interesting. One post missed about dayvig target and suddenly I am scum.

Which is a lie as he clearly didn't MISS that d3x dayvig'ed Monkey

I actually like this explanation, and it is actually something I can see as scummy.

I believe the point of 373 is not to deny knowledge that the dayvig occurred, but to explain the slip as "I knew there was a dayvig, but I had forgotten who the target was," which is itself damning, as it seems very unlikely to be true.

But he didn't try to do that. Even his defense doesn't go down that route.

[Squirrel Girl]

-Glad you like the explanation....now please vote him....or someone.

I'm trying to sort how I feel about you, then I'll be able to make a better feel for the Mnemonic wagon. I'm frustrated because I feel you're tossing something entirely awkward at me as a case, yet I like some of the work you're doing on Mnemonic (once you finally explained it) and even like your question to Kagami (though I think she's town regardless, but it's a decent angle to explore). The boggle I have is that you're seeming to try to be inscrutable. Like, the MD thing, I did need to bang at you a bit to get the tell expressed (and I'll admit it bugs me how many people leaped at it *prior* to him committing the actual scummy part of the infraction). And you're doing the same with the thing with me - bascially you're telling me that if I was town I'd remember all my questions perfectly, but if I was scum I'd forget about them...and that literally makes no sense to me and seems a wickedly false presumption to make, and I'm really trying to understand how you justify it as functional to yourself, and you're being darn obstinate about just giving a clear answer for some reason - even to the point of calling it circular (when I feel all I'm doing is asking you where the circle ruddy is) and that you desire to abandon the conversation (which also drives me nuts, because it's rude, dismissive, and not very helpful)

So, could you just explain the circle again? Like, seriously?

[Squirrel Girl]

Please pinpoint the hangup if I'm missing what you are trying to figure out with the above.

Can't really pinpoint a hangup if you admit to paranoia and hypocrisy as potential things in your play, because that pretty much covers that.

I can agree about Aronis, MD, and AA.

Do you not have an issue with Kats or Displaced? Or are they just lesser reads on the scale?

[Squirrel Girl]

I've got a town read on ArcAngel now. Odd but true.

I'd also really like it if she and Lady Lambda would stop ripping into each other unless either of them is doing the above as a scumhunting tool.

[Squirrel Girl]

They're both calling each other dumb. I'll agree Lambda started it...but...I don't know what that does to my basic goal of not having to read two ladies telling each other how dumb they think the other one is. I'm also pretty sure none of it will help me find scum.

[Squirrel Girl]

I'll jump on the LLD bandwagon.

ArcAngel
Kthxbye
vonflare
The Goodfather
Katsuki

The above should weigh in with agreement or vile opposition and a counter suggestion.

[Squirrel Girl]

Didn't fix MD for Goodfather. ...but then, MD is probably dead in any case, so no one cares who he'll vote.

[Squirrel Girl]

I feel like you're trying to give it to town reads, which somewhat defeats the purpose of the thing.

I'm okay with giving it to Lambda because I don't particularly have a town read on her.

[Squirrel Girl]

I can appear human without using vitae

Like, this is an actual power you have? Like you have the option to appear as human? Does it explain the pro-town ramifications of that to you? Because apparently I'm like that 24/7 and I think that makes me a miller, so either you're claiming the power to appear as a Miller, or there should be a town reason to wish to appear human. What have you got?

[Squirrel Girl]

I want to hear him answer my question before I theorize too much. I agree with you that his claim, as stands, still equates to lynching him - so we need more claim.

[Squirrel Girl]

Town, with two different powers. I can appear human without using vitae, and the other one I don't want to post until after night one, but will if forced.

I'm not sure it's really a change from what he originally claimed though.

The only thing that bugs me is the language he used for his targeted effect. He said 'watch one vampire' when I would generally expect it to be 'watch one player/target' unless the power was a ghoul power, in which case it would make sense to target a vampire...though shouldn't you be able to use it on a ghoul buddy? Eh, I think I talked myself out of my issue even as I'm writing it.

Double potential Millers seems a little weird though...

13 players.
7 core clans
3 presumed ghoul scum
That leaves 3 extra...we've had a Vykos (!?) claim, and me...and now a Caitiff claim.

If all the claims are true something is a little wonky I feel.

Okay, I have a thought. I will clarify that my character name, like MN's is a made up character. To my mind that actually makes the Vykos claim feel a little out of wack since, well, Vykos is not a made up character. Would it be worthwhile to do up a list of other notable Kindred and just ask people to claim if they have one of the officially named Vampires? The drawback is we let the scum know, theoretically, a stronger player. The positive is, if there is another named character, then I tend to believe the Vykos claim more and disbelieve the double miller setup (which doesn't make a lot of sense, but his role is not out of sorts with what I might expect a role to look like)

I will admit this whole theory actually hinges on the question of fake claims being mod provided.
Does anyone have any mod meta on that point? If he provides fakeclaims I'd drop this whole conversation pretty much, but if he doesn't then I think it's worth it.

[Squirrel Girl]

to all vampire senses

As a point.

My situation of detecting as human (and I looked, I didn't say this in my claim) specifically uses the word senses. That makes me believe that this is more likely true unless Ghouls were alerted that they would detect as human to vampire senses. Which, I'll admit, seems unlikely unless it was part of a mod provided fakeclaim.

[Squirrel Girl]

So you're saying Grey definitely gives fakeclaims?

[Squirrel Girl]

I tried to look up some games of his, and mostly just found a bunch of Micros, an Open, and a weird mechanic one where it wasn't clear if they got fakeclaims...but it didn't look like there was really roles to fake regardless.

Where are you getting your info from? Could I get a link?

[Squirrel Girl]

I had fun for the period I was alive in