Newbie 1497 (Game Over)

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Post Post #1125 (ISO) » Sat May 17, 2014 1:55 pm

Post by theelkspeaks »

In post 1123, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:
In post 1121, theelkspeaks wrote:I really don't like BBT's refusal to provide a read, nor his admission of ignoring a particular player. Both of those things sound kind of scummy. BBT, care to comment on why you're ignoring Aqua? There's no reason to ignore reading someone unless they're conftown, and you're clearly not willing to say you have a strong townread on Aqua, so you ought to be paying attention to him.
You don't think it's scummy that Knell is trying to find out how he is being read by other players?

How am I ignoring Aqua?
I meant to say Knell, not Aqua, there - I typed the wrong name.

As for my lynch list for today, I'd tend to say 1) Trick, 2) N_M, 3) Knell. Not sure about the order of the other 3.
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Post Post #1126 (ISO) » Sat May 17, 2014 2:17 pm

Post by Knell »

To put my last point more simply.
1. You agree with me that reads on yourself from other players can be useful (Or else why would you use them to evaluate Belisarius and N_M based on their read of you?)
2. You think it's scummy for me to ask for a read on myself.

You're saying it's wrong to ask for a read on yourself, but you don't deny that they're useful, but I think they're useful so, why shouldn't I ask? Because it's scummy? Why is it scummy? "Because only scum care what they're read as" Then does that mean you're scum BBT? Because your read on N_M, is expressly based on how he acted in relation to his read on you. If it's useful and people are withholding a read on you, I think it's a very good idea to ask. Or at least force an interaction on them. And you just asked the same thing anyway. You asked me why I was voting you, but that's just another way of asking me for my read on you. The reasons as to why, are important, so you ask why they have that read. And was inevitably going to be my next question, except you told me you didn't have one. :?
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Post Post #1127 (ISO) » Sat May 17, 2014 2:28 pm

Post by BlueBloodedToffee »

In post 1124, Knell wrote:
You know the answer to this. Why even ask it?
In the hopes of finally getting an answer?
In post 1118, Knell wrote:
1. Okay.
2. What are these reasons?
3. Because I can evaluate their legitimacy. Because scum sometimes don't like to provide reads on players and then have to transition, it makes things more difficult for them later.
4. Because it's an oddity, it's day 2 and I've posted enough for an impression. My understanding of your play based on your prior posts is that you do act on the information people have in relation to their reads on you.
5. Well, you're absolutely wrong on that, since I'm doing it. This is also a contradiction given that you've developed reads based on how people read you and what they did with these reads.
Trick is very confusing. He seems quite random and his thoughts come across like he is all over the place. It makes him difficult to read for me, a lot of the things he does come across as pro-town, I just don't feel like that's what the intention is from his side sometimes. His constant vote-switching and wagon-hopping is concerning though, and he does this all the time. I will be spending some time trying to figure Trick out if I get the opportunity, I don't feel that right now is the correct time to be switching my attention elsewhere.

NM is pretty obvious. I have stated why I am town-reading NM and unless something pretty drastic happens, my read on him won't be changing any time soon. I'm not wasting time/energy on somebody who I feel comfortable with my read on.

I feel I have been fairly open with how I am reading people in the game. I don't see how this is an issue, I don't like that you're trying to understand how you're being read by me and others. You're not on my lynch list for D2.

PEdit - I didn't ask NM for his read on me. I judged his reaction and posts to the situation that was ongoing to build a read on him. It is useful to understand how you're being read, of course it is; but coming out and flat-out asking 'How are you reading me?' just comes across as scummy to me.

I agree that I am contradicting myself a bit here. I have never seen it from the other point of view, it's normally me saying 'Why are you voting me?' or 'Why are you reading me this way?' This is the first time I have read it from the other perspective and it does come across as scummy. Although, I think 'why' and 'how' questions are slightly different. Why is more of a justification whereas how relates more to seeking information.
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Post Post #1128 (ISO) » Sat May 17, 2014 2:58 pm

Post by Thor665 »

In post 1050, Aquanim wrote:Thor: Stop asking, 'cos I'm not discussing this with you any more. If you're town it's a complete waste of your time and mine, and if you're scum it's a complete waste of my time to try to prove it to you.
:facepalm:

Later he will call me the anti-town one hurting ton's wincon...all without putting 2 + 2 together...
In post 1053, Not_Mafia wrote:How is this a logical progression of a conversation at all?
How is it not?
In post 1053, Not_Mafia wrote:Thor overstates his role in the Beli lynch,
I did not.
In post 1053, Not_Mafia wrote:Aqua points this out and then Thor makes it a conversation about what he should have done?
Actually, he didn't point that out - he complained that I came in and jumped that wagon with no purpose, arguing that I had no purpose in getting a flip. I countered with 'what should I have done?' and his answer became 'you should have kept hard tunneling the dead wagon you prefered' which I disagreed with as a smart play move.
In post 1053, Not_Mafia wrote:@Thor, What was the purpose of this?
You already quoted me explaining my purpose in Post 1027. What part of my answer confuses you?
In post 1053, Not_Mafia wrote:Irrespective of him being at L-1 or you knoeing this or not knowing this? What were you trying to do with this?
Get BBT lynched.
In post 1054, Not_Mafia wrote:
In post 1027, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1026, Aquanim wrote:Or that you're scum and you're not reading the thread or remembering what your professed attitude at certain points in the thread was. So that proves nothing.
:neutral:
And why did this warrant that emoticon?
He is deciding that I'm getting facts wrong because I'm not reading the thread...ignoring that I'm getting other facts dead on correct. For that to happen *and* for me to not be reading the thread, I'd have to somehow magically know stuff happened. So, at that point his issue with me is "you don't have perfect recall and don't go back to fact check yourself when you say things" which...doesn't actually suggest scum. He agreed with this, though disagreed with me that it was a town tell. Make sense?
In post 1067, theelkspeaks wrote:
@Thor
: I know you found the argument with Aqua frustrating and unproductive; the real question is, was Aqua persisting in the argument out of a scummy desire to hold back town, or was this argument made with town-intentions?
I have repeatedly called Aqua town. Me thinking he is being highly obtuse changes nothing in that regard. The only stronger read I have is Knell.
In post 1094, Knell wrote:Thor's read on Elk is weird, remembers his game with her, but not his game with Tr1ckster.
I do what in the where now?

I am amazed with BBt at L-1 NM is hard pushing for a compromise on the basis that we somehow need to get a wagon together...while ignoring the wagon that is already together.
If BBT flips scum and I don't make it to tomorrow - please lynch him next prior to Elk barring anything exciting.
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Post Post #1129 (ISO) » Sat May 17, 2014 3:01 pm

Post by Knell »

I meant Tynn.
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Post Post #1130 (ISO) » Sat May 17, 2014 3:06 pm

Post by Aquanim »

If anyone else thinks Thor's comments on our conversation above aren't complete tripe, ask and I'll explain it to you, but debating it for solely Thor's benefit is a complete waste of my time.
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Post Post #1131 (ISO) » Sat May 17, 2014 3:11 pm

Post by Aquanim »

I will reply to this though:
In post 1128, Thor665 wrote: I am amazed with BBt at L-1 NM is hard pushing for a compromise on the basis that we somehow need to get a wagon together...while ignoring the wagon that is already together.
If BBT flips scum and I don't make it to tomorrow - please lynch him next prior to Elk barring anything exciting.
Oh, I don't know... maybe Not_Mafia isn't happy with an L-1 wagon on the slot he's been hard town-reading all game or something? /sarcasm
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Post Post #1132 (ISO) » Sat May 17, 2014 3:14 pm

Post by Not_Mafia »

In post 1011, Aquanim wrote:And no, you didn't get town a lynch and a flip. I got town a lynch and a flip, on someone I was happy to lynch, by pushing the Belisarius wagon. You didn't contribute to that wagon, you came in and hammered it at the end having put no work into it and not even being accountable for it, since it was Beli or a no-lynch at that point.
In post 1128, Thor665 wrote:
In post 1053, Not_Mafia wrote:Aqua points this out and then Thor makes it a conversation about what he should have done?
Actually, he didn't point that out -
he complained that I came in and jumped that wagon with no purpose, arguing that I had no purpose in getting a flip.
I countered with 'what should I have done?' and his answer became 'you should have kept hard tunneling the dead wagon you prefered' which I disagreed with as a smart play move.
Where in his response is what you've said in bold?
In post 1128, Thor665 wrote:He is deciding that I'm getting facts wrong because I'm not reading the thread...ignoring that I'm getting other facts dead on correct. For that to happen *and* for me to not be reading the thread, I'd have to somehow magically know stuff happened. So, at that point his issue with me is "you don't have perfect recall and don't go back to fact check yourself when you say things" which...doesn't actually suggest scum. He agreed with this, though disagreed with me that it was a town tell. Make sense?
Or you're scum. Like he said.

The rest of your post is just "because I said so"
Also, what is NM doing? Worst play I’ve ever seen.
I can't remember the last N_M post that wasn't bland, unimaginative and lame. Some shitposters are at least somewhat funny. You are the epitomy of the type of poster that nobody would miss if you were to suddenly disappear. You never add anything of value.
I'm guessing you haven't read the game and probably never will? Why even sign up to play?
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Post Post #1133 (ISO) » Sat May 17, 2014 3:20 pm

Post by Knell »

In post 1127, BlueBloodedToffee wrote:
In the hopes of finally getting an answer? <-
I was thinking more along the lines of rhetoric.



Trick is very confusing. He seems quite random and his thoughts come across like he is all over the place. It makes him difficult to read for me, a lot of the things he does come across as pro-town, I just don't feel like that's what the intention is from his side sometimes. His constant vote-switching and wagon-hopping is concerning though, and he does this all the time. I will be spending some time trying to figure Trick out if I get the opportunity, I don't feel that right now is the correct time to be switching my attention elsewhere.
<- if you don't get lynched today you almost certainly will have time.


NM is pretty obvious. I have stated why I am town-reading NM and unless something pretty drastic happens, my read on him won't be changing any time soon. I'm not wasting time/energy on somebody who I feel comfortable with my read on.
<- But what about the rest of us who aren't comfortable with him? Would you just let him be lynched?


I feel I have been fairly open with how I am reading people in the game. I don't see how this is an issue, I don't like that you're trying to understand how you're being read by me and others. You're not on my lynch list for D2.
<- I don't care? Even if you were, it wouldn't happen. I'm wondering why on gods green earth is someone who is supposedly town not looking at someone's posts? you don't see how I could find this strange?


PEdit - I didn't ask NM for his read on me. I judged his reaction and posts to the situation that was ongoing to build a read on him. It is useful to understand how you're being read, of course it is; but coming out and flat-out asking 'How are you reading me?' just comes across as scummy to me.
<- Yeah, but you've failed to explain how it's anymore scummy than, you know, not asking and getting a read on yourself, players will still be held to these reads and questioned on them, they're not any less useful just because someone asked for a read, versus someone asking for a more generalized "what are your reads? or someone else asking, "what do you think of X?"


I agree that I am contradicting myself a bit here. I have never seen it from the other point of view, it's normally me saying 'Why are you voting me?' or 'Why are you reading me this way?' This is the first time I have read it from the other perspective and it does come across as scummy. Although, I think 'why' and 'how' questions are slightly different. Why is more of a justification whereas how relates more to seeking information.
<- What other point of view, how does it across as scummy? As for the last part, I don't really understand. I think of "how" as their actions in relation to the information they've provided (I.e., voting, defending, attacking, arguing) and "why" as their reasons for such action.
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Post Post #1134 (ISO) » Sat May 17, 2014 3:41 pm

Post by Aquanim »

@Knell
: There's about 36 hours to go in the day, and if I'm reading thread sentiment correctly you're holding the hammer. I'm staying out of your way while you question BBT, Elk, and whoever else; if you want my opinion on anything, ask.

Running this out to the last minute courts disaster so I think you should keep that in mind; that being said, do as you see fit.
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Post Post #1135 (ISO) » Sat May 17, 2014 3:42 pm

Post by Knell »

Elk, will you have the time necessary for BBT's question to be answered before dead line?
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Post Post #1136 (ISO) » Sat May 17, 2014 3:51 pm

Post by Knell »

In post 1134, Aquanim wrote:
@Knell
: There's about 36 hours to go in the day, and if I'm reading thread sentiment correctly you're holding the hammer. I'm staying out of your way while you question BBT, Elk, and whoever else; if you want my opinion on anything, ask.

Running this out to the last minute courts disaster so I think you should keep that in mind; that being said, do as you see fit.
the reasons I'm reading Thor as town is because his reads feel legit. I don't know how he is supposed to react to you given he's town reading you. Do you think someone could react the way he has reacted to you given your push on him and his stated town read of you? The meta reading help any in this regard?

The reasons I could see Thor scum is because of the holes in his arguments, his seeming self-fulfilling prophecy when it comes to liking dead line lynches as scum. He also has sometimes come across as fake. Not necessarily hyperbole, like when he usually exaggerates or makes fun of people's arguments but because of things like his dead line hammer or "If I die tonight" and the general insanity of waiting 5 days as an IC before jumping in. But, that's partially our fault too.
In post 1121, theelkspeaks wrote:I really don't like BBT's refusal to provide a read, nor his admission of ignoring a particular player. Both of those things sound kind of scummy. BBT, care to comment on why you're ignoring Knell? There's no reason to ignore reading someone unless they're conftown, and you're clearly not willing to say you have a strong townread on Knell, so you ought to be paying attention to him.
What do you think of this post by Elk?
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Post Post #1137 (ISO) » Sat May 17, 2014 3:52 pm

Post by Thor665 »

In post 1132, Not_Mafia wrote:Where in his response is what you've said in bold?
He said it multiple times. here's one of them;
In post 1008, Aquanim wrote:My problem here is that I view those last 24-48 hours as the critical part of the day - given that no lynch had been accomplished up to that point, that "miniscule slice" is where the outcome of the entire day is determined. It's the point in the day when maybe you could convince people to vote for BBT as a compromise lynch, for instance - Knell, Madonna and Belisarius might have been receptive to a "not Madonna" lynch if they couldn't get a Tr1ckster one. I just don't get the "well my lynch isn't happening so I'll just sit around and wait" mentality at such a critical time.
In post 1132, Not_Mafia wrote:Or you're scum. Like he said.
...you're the one who asked me to explain it to you...I'm guessing you didn't care? I don't get this.
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Post Post #1138 (ISO) » Sat May 17, 2014 3:53 pm

Post by Knell »

Sorry, not partially, It's entirely everyone's fault.
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Post Post #1139 (ISO) » Sat May 17, 2014 3:53 pm

Post by Thor665 »

In post 1136, Knell wrote:his seeming self-fulfilling prophecy when it comes to liking dead line lynches as scum. [snip] and the general insanity of waiting 5 days as an IC before jumping in. But, that's partially our fault too.
So close to grokking reality there. So close.
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Post Post #1140 (ISO) » Sat May 17, 2014 3:54 pm

Post by Thor665 »

In post 1138, Knell wrote:Sorry, not partially, It's entirely everyone's fault.
And edit saved reality!
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Post Post #1141 (ISO) » Sat May 17, 2014 3:55 pm

Post by Thor665 »

I'll also note that my wait still didn't prevent me from getting the wagon I wanted to L-1 again...though now people are being shady about it *again* and are going to pick a substandard alternate choice *again* and if I get bored by it and try to speed it up then I feed Aquanim's paranoia despite being on the record that going till deadline hurts town. Derpa-dee!
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Post Post #1142 (ISO) » Sat May 17, 2014 3:57 pm

Post by Knell »

Nope. Probably BBT, but I'd like Elk's thing first. Because I'd like to see BBT's reaction to it. I waited too long, Aqua was right in that, I was essentially, the only player who was capable of hopping around and putting people at L-1 and I waited too long. -_-).
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Post Post #1143 (ISO) » Sat May 17, 2014 3:58 pm

Post by Thor665 »

Everyone alwas does - because people get dumb about L-1 "too early".
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Post Post #1144 (ISO) » Sat May 17, 2014 3:59 pm

Post by Thor665 »

This is actually why I like an L-1 or two on Day 1-3. In games with more vets you'll see that happen more often.
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Post Post #1145 (ISO) » Sat May 17, 2014 4:01 pm

Post by Knell »

Why would Elk's lynch be substandard?
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Post Post #1146 (ISO) » Sat May 17, 2014 4:03 pm

Post by Aquanim »

In post 1136, Knell wrote:
In post 1134, Aquanim wrote:
@Knell
: There's about 36 hours to go in the day, and if I'm reading thread sentiment correctly you're holding the hammer. I'm staying out of your way while you question BBT, Elk, and whoever else; if you want my opinion on anything, ask.

Running this out to the last minute courts disaster so I think you should keep that in mind; that being said, do as you see fit.
the reasons I'm reading Thor as town is because his reads feel legit. I don't know how he is supposed to react to you given he's town reading you. Do you think someone could react the way he has reacted to you given your push on him and his stated town read of you? The meta reading help any in this regard?
If I have accurately shown that Thor is scum, but I'm so obviously town that he cannot OMGUS me and live, his
only
possible counter to that is to misconstrue my arguments and bury them in stupidity, as he has done.

And which reads feel legit? His only substantiative read is on BBT, afaik.
The reasons I could see Thor scum is because of the holes in his arguments, his seeming self-fulfilling prophecy when it comes to liking dead line lynches as scum. He also has sometimes come across as fake. Not necessarily hyperbole, like when he usually exaggerates or makes fun of people's arguments but because of things like his dead line hammer or "If I die tonight" and the general insanity of waiting 5 days as an IC before jumping in. But, that's partially our fault too.
Thor claiming that him choosing not to do anything for a week is all our faults is ludicrous. If we're not playing the game right, is it not the responsibility of an IC (or in fact, any townie) to guide us into playing better? He's just reaching at this point.
In post 1121, theelkspeaks wrote:I really don't like BBT's refusal to provide a read, nor his admission of ignoring a particular player. Both of those things sound kind of scummy. BBT, care to comment on why you're ignoring Knell? There's no reason to ignore reading someone unless they're conftown, and you're clearly not willing to say you have a strong townread on Knell, so you ought to be paying attention to him.
What do you think of this post by Elk?
I don't have so much of a problem with BBT not having a thought-out read on you; "clearly not a good lynch today" is sufficient as far as I'm concerned. I don't remember giving clear and justified reasons why I think you're town recently. However, this would be really easy fruit for a scum-Elk to grasp at.

I can understand a townie not wanting to completely rule out anyone being scum, but not seriously analysing their probable townreads.
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Post Post #1147 (ISO) » Sat May 17, 2014 4:05 pm

Post by Aquanim »

In post 1141, Thor665 wrote:I'll also note that my wait still didn't prevent me from getting the wagon I wanted to L-1 again...though now people are being shady about it *again* and are going to pick a substandard alternate choice *again* and if I get bored by it and try to speed it up then I feed Aquanim's paranoia despite being on the record that going till deadline hurts town. Derpa-dee!
Well, now you're just putting words in my mouth. If you had a case for BBT-scum which convinced me now, I'd be voting for him. Whether you choose to try to speed up the wagon or not doesn't change the fact that I think your case is bad, you're scum, and you should hang.
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Post Post #1148 (ISO) » Sat May 17, 2014 4:05 pm

Post by Knell »

That's kind of what I was thinking it felt like an opportunistic push. /:
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Post Post #1149 (ISO) » Sat May 17, 2014 4:07 pm

Post by Aquanim »

In post 1148, Knell wrote:That's kind of what I was thinking it felt like an opportunistic push. /:
At this point, if Elk's scum I think he has to be looking for some excuse to get on the BBT wagon so as not to be lynched today. So there would be a clear scum motivation, too.

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