Mini 1578: Lord of the Rings!! - GaME OVeR

[Bulbazak]

/confirm and stuff

[Bulbazak]

Vote Freja

Sheeping Mastin here. I have an idea about Guyett, but I'm not going to tell just yet.

Toog's town.

[Bulbazak]

If you're sheeping me, Bulbazak, why vote Freja instead of reinoe?
(Now done with accuracy! )

Because I don't see why Reinoe is scummy, and I liked your Guyett/Freja association. And since I don't think Guyett is scum...

Whats your idea? What does it relate to? Flavour???

Not telling. It has to do with something you said.

[Bulbazak]

So Bulbuzak, your vote wasn't RVS?

It's somewhat RVS. I'm just using Mastin's reasoning.

[Bulbazak]

I declare RVS officially over!

UNVOTE:

So unvote or post legit reasoning for your vote.

What if I don't want RVS to be over?

[Bulbazak]

I declare RVS officially over!

UNVOTE:

So unvote or post legit reasoning for your vote.

What if I don't want RVS to be over?

You get lynched.

I'll take my chances.

[Bulbazak]

Aronis, I like it. Helps differentiate between fluff and serious stuff...

This is the only thing making me doubt my Aronis scumread.

I also think the questions are more attempts to look like he's doing something, rather than actually doing something.

The common rule is that your scum list should have as many people as there are scum.

No, your scum list should consist of the people you are reading as scum. Arbitrarily assigning a certain amount of people to the scum list just so that it matches the actual amount of scum is fake scumhunting.

Do You Vote without a reason in order to gauge reactions or do you like giving a reason for your votes?

Not telling. That would ruin any attempts at pressure in the future.

I've stumbled across people here and there saying "consistency" is scummy but there is no way I can see hypocrisy as acceptable from town.

I've seen hypocrisy from town. It all comes down to judging intent.

Leaning Town on The Three Amangos and Bulba. Leaning scum on reinoe, and thinking FailHydra is his partner at the moment.

Why is FH scum?

I'm in no mood to fight a flashwagon that consists of:

a vote based on confirming that the game is starting,
an RVS vote,
a possible misinterpretation of the English Language,
and I don't even know what Toogeloos vote is about but whatev

Claiming now.

Frodo baggins
Town Aligned Hobbit Ringbearer
1x unkillable

If I'm killed the ring falls into the hands of sauron and the town faces a penalty.

This smells like BS.

Unvote

Vote Reinoe

[Bulbazak]

seriously reinoe. and I was about to come shout these idiots down.

whatever. anyways, I was waiting for my other head to awaken so we could converse about this, but:

a) frodo's in the freaking game, obviously
b) frodo has to be town

so why the hell would anyone vote someone who claimed frodo? all that would be needed is a counter claim, and it wouldn't even require outing PR's or anything

There are things called fake claims.

[Bulbazak]

Read the thread. I was being scumread because I typed "Confirmed" to start the game.

That wasn't why we were scumreading you.

Reinoe wagon is AAAAAAWWWWWWWFULLLLLLLLLL. Even if he is scum. Which I hope he is not.

Why do you hope he is not scum?

Proto is scum, btw.

And look at Aronis' comments. That's scum right there.

Why?

[Bulbazak]

Why do you hope he is not scum?

Because it would give me near-orgasmic pleasure to witness the town realizing that rash behavior has consequences.

I wouldn't call the town's behavior rash. After all, Reinoe was the one who self voted.

Weren't you the one who was scumreading me because you think Frodo Baggins wouldn't be in a game called "Lord Of The Rings"?

No, I was scumreading you for your attempting to look town via the questions, for your premature claim, for your claim of unkillable, which amounts to "kill it with fire", and for your Appeal to Fear of "if you kill me, bad things will happen guys".

I'm not fighting a derpwagon. I've said so several times. People quickhammer way too often. How is this hard to understand?

Quick hammers don't happen as often as you'd think. The day phase is our most precious resource, and quick hammers cut information short. Plus, I for one would PL the crap out of anyone who quick hammered.

So the theory was that scum would take their chances at L-4 and claim a role that's almost definitely in the game?

Mods generally provide fake claims in theme games, which means that scum know that their fake claim is not in the game. And mods go to great lengths to ensure that their game cannot be broken by flavor. An example would be Fire Emblem: Awakening, where the main character was a scum fake claim.

Once a person hits L-1 there's not stopping it.

Sure there is. I once walked away from L-1 twice in a game. Add in the fact that short days are not good for town, and it was unlikely that you would have been lynched too quickly.

[Bulbazak]

What the bloody fuckin hell happened.

Reinoe went pants on head stupid.

FTFY

Both heads feel this strongly. The vote on Reinoe was unwarranted even as a pressure vote, with 4 votes on him and him claiming there were plenty of ways to pressure the claim without running the risk of voting out someone who claimed a role that helps scum if they get lynched. Plus, both Bulba and Aronis can't say there votes were for anything other than voting out Reinoe since they ran him to L-1 and L-2 respectively, since he already claimed a quickhammer was something they knew was a possibility.

Reinoe claimed at L-4 under little pressure, claimed unkillable (a claim so fake that it should always be lynched), yelled "Don't kill me guys! It would be really bad for town if I died!" (A mantra screamed by every dying scum ever. Not to mention that there is no evidence that this claim is real, meaning it was a genuinely scummy AtF.), and then he proceeded to hide behind his flavor claim. 9 times out of 10 that is scum, and I will proceed to lynch that crap all day every day. Instead of looking at those who recognized that as a scum move, I'd be more concerned over who strongly defended town acting that scummy, as there is definitely scum doing so for towncred. And the only reason why I'm not going to throw you in that category is because you actually towntold extremely hard during twilight, otherwise I'd be wanting your head on a pike for misrepping me as hard as you did before the thread closed.

you are responsible for putting a PRish claim to L-1 knowing a quickhammer was a definite possibility. Don't hide under the fact that Reinoe was derpy and quickhammered.

His claim was fake

and while a quickhammer may have been possible, he likely wouldn't have been quickhammered if he hadn't quickhammered himself.

How did you know at the time?

Seriously? That claim had "fake" written all over it. The only claim I have ever seen more fake than that was Yates's claim of Secret Nurse in a normal game.

Even under pressure scum doesn't fake claim until they have to, it locks them into a set role which can be counter-claimed.

You obviously have never seen newbie scum collapse under the pressure, which looks exactly like Reinoe did yesterday.

Vote Protogonos

Obvious WK was obvious.

[Bulbazak]

counter argument for you:

as scum, a player you know to be town claims early for god knows what reason and says they're lynch gives scum an advantage. If you were already voting this player, you'd keep your vote their and let them get run out of town. If your vote was elsewhere, you'd vote for that person and hope that they got lynched.

In essence, poor town play by Reinoe gives scum a cover for getting him run out so quickly. Yeah town might bite as well since its bad play, but scum would be jumping at the bit to get on a wagon like that.

That sounds good in theory, but it rarely works in practice. Scum could also recognize the wagon as a sure thing and have allowed town to push it through, which has a high chance of happening given the way he claimed.

Why are you suspicious of people who defended Reinoe?

Because they only came forward to defend him AFTER the fact. And they were defending him HARD, which doesn't make sense given the nature of his claim and actions. Town at this point would either be berating Reinoe, or anxiously waiting the flip. Some of them would maybe even be trying to get some discussion in twilight. Defending Reinoe as town at that point, especially given his strong anti-town actions, comes across as an attempt to gain towncred after a town flip.

Do you really think his wagon was all town and the scum were all white-knighting?

I think his wagon was mostly town. If there was any scum on the wagon, I would say there was no more than one. Again, that's a wagon that scum would want to avoid once it started rolling, as town would do the work for them. I do think that at least one of Reinoe's heavy defenders are scum, and since I have a townread on you, that leaves Proto. It should be noted that scum rarely all do a certain action.

Also, what do you think of Aronis's answers today? Same situation as you, but he hasn't articulated his rational anywhere near as well.

I think they're mostly born from frustration, similar to what we saw in twilight yesterday. Actually, it's because of that reaction that I'm leaning town.

[Bulbazak]

I'd like to open another avenue of discussion, which is what prompted my vote for Rach earlier. The Night Kill.

ProHawk's kill almost certainly seems ambiguous enough to assume that he was killed out of fear. Opinions?

Given the shortened day phase, it's hard to tell. I'd rather not speculate until we have more information that could lead to a pattern.

And Bulb, your argument against me is really, really bad. For one, I only checked this game and posted after the hammer, so it is not as if I stayed off the wagon.

That was never my argument for you being scum.

Second, the reinoe wagon was TERRIBLE and any competent player could see that.

It really was not, and I outlined why several times.

I was hardly WKing him because his behavior was so obviously irreconcilable with scum alignment that the possibility was not even worth considering in the first place.

Again, I outlined exactly why his behavior seemed indicative of scum, and 9 times out of 10 I'd have been right. You could have disagreed with the quicklynch, but then you'd have to assign blame to Reinoe, but that didn't gel with your agenda to venerate him.

Abject horror gave way to an Arya Stark-esque cackling as I witnessed his self-hammer.

This is not a town reaction.

If there is a correlating poster who stuck off Rein

and

defended him after the fact, then I would support a lynch on that basis.

Look at Proto.

I don't find the impulse to drive up Reinoe after his claim to L-1 to be particularly town motivated,

especially

given that not many people even had a chance to comment on what happened after this was done. Reinoe had enough pressure on him already.

Except it was

because

of his claim that he got those votes. As I've said multiple times, the claim was scummy on multiple levels and looked like caught scum. And L-1 would have been perfectly fine pressure-wise if Reinoe hadn't self-hammered and cut the day short.

2) I'm sorry, but when someone claims FRODO w/ a potential "I give scum power if killed" thing (something pretty typical in LOTR games--ordinarily you would be right that this is someone flailing,

but not in a LOTR game

), you stop and think about the options.

Except he didn't just say that non-chalantly. He first claimed that he was unkillable, and then he gave the classic "Don't lynch me guys or bad things will happen and the scums will win!", which is more an appeal to fear to keep from being lynched. Both of those things together meant "lynch with fire".

3) anti-town does not equal scum

I understand that. I was using the knowledge I have now to refer to Reinoe's actions. At the time they looked incredibly scummy.

4) You seem to be making the case that Reinoe was sooooo obvscum that any town would be voting him. That is a subjective belief. As far as I'm concerned, not even a scum claim should result in a quicklynch on like...page 5.

Again, the quicklynch was the fault of Reinoe and Reinoe only. If he didn't self-vote, he wouldn't have been lynched any time soon. And look at the build up of the wagon and note how many experienced players pointed to the claim as the reason. That claim really was that scummy.

5) Both of us have played with Reinoe before and derpiness is something you come to expect from his town game.

Good for you. I'm not you.

6) Bottom line, you and Aronis, just like Reinoe, reacted on impulse. He'd be an easy lynch. You can say "how scummy" Reinoe was as much as you want, but that doesn't change the fact that scum tend to be pretty greedy. They'll jump on as soon as they have the opportunity on a wagon like Reinoe's. Why? They can claim he was "so scummy lolz" and that we should just "forget about D1 entirely because of him!!!!" (thanks for that one, Aronis. +10 more scumpoints for you).

Here's a secret: When somebody makes a conf. scum claim, you lynch it. Otherwise you end up with this.

What distinguishes our defense of Reinoe from Proto's?

Proto's was stronger and only came after the hammer. You also towntold when you genuinely didn't know that scum tend to get fake claims in theme games.

I think they're mostly born from frustration, similar to what we saw in twilight yesterday. Actually, it's because of that reaction that I'm leaning town.

I've got a better idea. Instead of pestering the hell out of that stupid wagon. We pretend we're restarting the game without that idiotic fool?

you really think load of horse manure is simply "born from frustration?"

Yes.

On Reinoe's claim: Again, there have been LOTR games with ring mechanics before. I think I even played a game when the Ring won by itself somehow. I do not think town Reinoe would lie about the fact that he had a ring that could potentially give power to the scum team. I don't think it be such a far stretch that the Ring could be something a player can possess. meh, I'll stop with the flavour theorizing.

Reinoe lied about many things. Until the mod says otherwise, I'm just going to assume that he was talking out of his rectum.

[Bulbazak]

Havent read any of this page yet but dear lord, I will kill the next person to post a wall of text.

At least I'm not Dragon.

Youre digging yourself into a hole just fine in my opinion. My vote is mostly because you just used a wall but also because right now youre either ignorant town or scum.

Why would you be voting ignorant town?

Btw, Bulbazak what do you think/know about Guyett that you hinted at yesterday?

Not saying. If you role fish again, you're back on my crap list.

Bulba, you claimed to be slightly scum reading me D1, what changed?

Mostly your reactions in twilight. I found your anger and frustration in twilight to be genuine and indicative of town, since scum would be laying low imo.

I'd almost think Three Amangos was the scum[if any] on the wagon. They voted first on it, then seemed content to watch him get lynched.

I'm really not following you here.

And Bulb, your argument against me is really, really bad. For one, I only checked this game and posted after the hammer, so it is not as if I stayed off the wagon.

That was never my argument for you being scum.

Mind restating it very succinctly, so there is no confusion?

You came in and hard defended Reinoe as town AFTER he was already hammered. During this time you espoused Reinoe as town during a time when that wasn't known and the evidence provided didn't seem likely. You also set up enough lynches to get a 3 person scum team to Lylo, even though there was no indication that Reinoe would flip town. You essentially took it as a certainty when that knowledge hadn't been provided yet, and it looked more like an attempt to garner towncred and manipulate the town more than anything town motivated.

Clear enough for you now?

It really was not, and I outlined why several times.

And none of your outlines was in the least bit compelling, since they relied on associating particular actions with scum for no reason whatsoever. The wagon was shit and the reasoning was shit. I have not even played that many games, and I have never had a reinoe-esque breakdown come from scum. Furthermore, I have never seen someone lynched after an "obvious fakeclaim" flip scum.

I'm so sorry that no one consulted you Mr. Expert with zero on-site games of experience. The reasoning for the lynch was sound. Reinoe had claimed Unkillable, which is not just a rare role, but a bastard one, which makes it almost impossible to appear in the game. He then followed it up with an appeal to fear of "Don't kill me guys or something bad will happen to the town!" which is the type of statement flailing scum make when desperate to avoid death. Furthermore, that statement doesn't gel with the unkillable claim he had just made. You know what else doesn't mesh with that claim? The self-hammer. If Reinoe's role was what he had claimed it to be, he'd at least be trying to fight the lynch as hard as he could, or at the very least, he'd be asking for our protective role to be on him during the night. We didn't get any of that from him. Instead he self-hammered and then acted all self-righteous, something that doesn't make sense coming from town. True, he was town, but he certainly didn't look like it at the time.

And just because you haven't seen it with only your handful of games as experience, don't dismiss it as never happening, especially when those that pointed out the tell have at least several year's worth of experience on-site.

Again, I outlined exactly why his behavior seemed indicative of scum, and 9 times out of 10 I'd have been right.

Not in my experience. In my experience, any halfway decent player would have leaped off that wagon as soon as they claim occurred.

And I'm sure that worked fine on the trading card forums you are from, but this is Mafiascum. You're playing in the big leagues now.

Reinoe did not put himself at L-1. Putting of the blame on him is a transparent attempt at revisionist history. That wagon was hella scummy, not only because someone was at a serious L-1 when some of the players had not even posted yet.

And he was at L-1 for good reason. And as I've said multiple times, he was in no danger of getting any further votes, because cutting the day short is anti-town. He probably would have sat at L-1 to L-2 for at least a week and a half before we would even think about hammering, providing that our pressure of him didn't actually reveal that he was town. And even if someone did quickhammer, we'd most likely be lynching that person today. The fact of the matter is that Reinoe was not in danger of a quicklynch when he hammered, which is why your attempt at putting the blame elsewhere is extremely scummy, since again, you are trying to exalt Reinoe in an effort to paint yourself as more town.

P-edit: If Proto is an Aegor alt, he needs to be lynched with fire. Aegor knows better.

[Bulbazak]

@Freja: Is your vote on me due to my part in the Reinoe wagon? Y/N.

[Bulbazak]

You came in and hard defended Reinoe as town AFTER he was already hammered.

Which happens to be when I came into the thread. How is that a problem, exactly?

Because not only did you WK Reinoe hard, but you did so at a time when that action would have zero effect on the Reinoe wagon. There was no other point to the action than to come back later and go "See! See! I called him town!" and get towncred.

During this time you espoused Reinoe as town during a time when that wasn't known and the evidence provided didn't seem likely.

Your incompetence is really not my problem. I have at most the same knowledge you have, and it was inconceivable to me that he was scum. Sorry I can tell when players are town.

You don't have the same knowledge I have, because all the evidence indicated that Reinoe was scum. And if I really am scum, like you say, how could you be calling me incompetent in regards to my Reinoe read? Wouldn't I have been pushing him purposely if I was scum as you claim?

You also set up enough lynches to get a 3 person scum team to Lylo, even though there was no indication that Reinoe would flip town.

There was plenty of indication to me.

It really must be nice having knowledge concerning everyone's alignments prior to the start of the game.

I am obviously an alt.

All the more reason to lynch you. You should know better than to be spouting what you are.

The reasoning for the lynch was sound. Reinoe had claimed Unkillable, which is not just a rare role, but a bastard one, which makes it almost impossible to appear in the game. He then followed it up with an appeal to fear of "Don't kill me guys or something bad will happen to the town!" which is the type of statement flailing scum make when desperate to avoid death.

Or frustrated, panicky town make. Have you played with poor pieguy?

Yes, multiple times, and he's never done anything like this.

And his self-hammer should have been an obvious marker of his towniness.

I've seen enough scum quickhammer to know that this is not the case.

Frequently. And anyone still voting someone at L-1 has no basis for opposing a lynch of that person.

I never said I opposed the lynch. I just didn't want it to happen so fast.

He probably would have sat at L-1 to L-2 for at least a week and a half before we would even think about hammering,

In what alternate universe do you live?

The one not ran by trolls and fairies.

I am not attempting to put the blame elsewhere.

Yes you have, multiple times. In fact, that's the whole basis of your play today.

I am just saying that it is ridiculous to suggest that putting someone at L-1 and then complaining when the person gets hammered is absurd.

I think it's natural to complain when the first day ends only after 24 hours of play. And I think it's ridiculous not to look at the person who self-hammered as responsible when ridiculing the speed.

I sware to god this town is so fucking stupid. So is the goal to get as many mislynches as possible as fast as possible? Because I must say, you're doing pretty good.

Why are you referring to town in the third person, somewhat indicating you aren't part of them?

Also, Fail Hydra moves fully into my town pile.

And I forgot about this before, but did anyone get the message from ProHawk?

[Bulbazak]

Hey Freja, I asked you a question. Answer it.

[Bulbazak]

the scum read on you is due to your boneheadedly stupid decision to vote Reinoe

I disagree. I thought my case was very good, and I outlined it several times, which you ignored.

and your rational that the best place to look for scum is off the Reinoe wagon.

Given the claim and behavior of Reinoe, I have no problem believing the wagon was town driven and likely has very little scum. Meanwhile, we have some delicious WKing coming from Proto, so I'm looking there.

What I'm seeing from you however, is aggressive and smug behavior.

How is that scummy and not playstyle?

Your posts have enough one liners to fill a small book.

Again, how is that scummy?

[Bulbazak]

Everything about what you are saying sounds rotten. You have such certainty in your cases. The game is black and white for you.

I've learned it's best to have certainty in my pushes, otherwise no pressure is exerted, and I lose any ability I have to sort things. I'll take certainty in my reads over being wishy-washy any day.

Players who didn't fuck up are the only scum candidates?

I didn't say that. This is a massive misrep of my points.

It was reasonable for Reinoe's wagon to be entirely town driven?

Yes. See this game for why.

I'll make this point again since you've conveniently forgotten it: a town claims PR and acts all kinds of stupid. As scum, how do you not go for that?

By realizing that town are going to look at that wagon the next day. If town is going to do your job for you, why join?

For you to suggest that the wagon was town driven is absurdly stupid, and convenient for you.

It's not convenient, just based off experience.

Even if you thought Reinoe's play was bad enough to get town on his wagon, knowing that he claimed a PR why would you assume scum stayed away?

Because scum don't like to lynch PR claims. They like to NK them. PR claims scare scum away from wagons, because they know that person is town and know how much scrutiny that wagon is going to be under. It'd be way easier to use that wagon to line up mislynches, rather than to be on it themselves.

That's a strong statement to make and you have no evidence to back it up.

Read Indie Game and pay attention to the Who wagon.

Because not only did you WK Reinoe hard, but you did so at a time when that action would have zero effect on the Reinoe wagon.

There was no other point

to the action than to come back later and go "See! See! I called him town!" and get towncred.

This argument is total bollocks. You are simply asserting that my motivation was X and then saying I am scummy because X is scummy. My point in posting was to point out a bad wagon. You are mixing up necessary and sufficient conditions here. You can read scum intent into most things; that does not mean it is actually there.

A lot of good it did if that person was already a dead man walking...

You don't have the same knowledge I have, because all the evidence indicated that Reinoe was scum.

This is simply not true.

Really? Let's ignore hindsight. What evidence was there that showed Reinoe being town that couldn't also be explained by him being panicky newb scum?

And if I really am scum, like you say, how could you be calling me incompetent in regards to my Reinoe read? Wouldn't I have been pushing him purposely if I was scum as you claim?

Yes, and your push was blatantly horrible. For either alignment, your actions betrayed incompetence.

Again, there's a massive amount of cognitive dissonance here. If I was scum, then I was doing my job by pushing that wagon. The only way I could be incompetent was if I was town, and even then, I'm having a hard time seeing it, as in most cases, those actions are more likely to come from scum than town.

All the more reason to lynch you. You should know better than to be spouting what you are.

Actually, it should be no surprise that I'm spouting what I am, and any experienced player in my place would be saying the same. That's part of why I'm thinking you're scum: The WKing and ignoring of why Reinoe looked so scummy to begin with. You want to make excuses for him and absolve him of any responsibility he had in his own lynch and push it elsewhere, all so you can score some mislynches.

I've seen enough scum quickhammer to know that this is not the case.

See, our experiences differ yet again! I have never, ever seen scum do what reinoe did. At least out of panic.

Fuzzybutternut.

I never said I opposed the lynch. I just didn't want it to happen so fast.

Now you know not to increase the speed of a wagon after a claim until others have at least posted if you do not actually want to take the risk of your vote contributing to a fast lynch.

I thought you were saying I was scum? How then are you rebuking me as if I was town?

To put a number on it, half of my games current games have had quickhammers or even hammers without claims.

Stop playing in Newbies.

Blame =/= responsibility. I blame reinoe for his self-hammer. Anyone who voted after his claim is partially responsible for his lynch.

Maybe, but that still doesn't mean that they didn't have good reason for voting Reinoe or that they wanted the day to end that quickly.

I'll start from page 12 onward when I have more time later tonight.

[Bulbazak]

@Bulbazak: I think one of the scummiest things you have done after the wagon is your attempts to discredit people who disagreed with the Reinoe lynch. For example, you go after Proto for his "lack of experience" and insist he listen to the "more experienced" players who know how obvscum Reinoe's claim was.

So, I have 3 statements/questions for you:
1) I have WAY more experience than most of this playerlist, and yet I see the wagon as incredibly shitty. Additionally, I think town would admit that they fucked up, and try to move on from it, rather than do their utmost to prove to people that "you were in the right," so to speak. Anyone who was actually right about Reinoe becomes suspicious (which is idiotic for numerous reasons), and anyone who was wrong is "justified."

2) Who the hell are you to dictate what a player ought to think? Who the hell is Guyett to try to get me to move onto a vote I disagree with? Trying to convince someone of the value of a lynch through case work is fine, but not when it becomes a

demand.

3) Since when has just listening to people with "experience" been a good strategy? Seriously, its like newbie game 101 to challenge people and their beliefs regardless of their alleged skill.

All I see is you being butt hurt. But I also have to admit that I got carried away in my zeal of pursuing Proto. When I have an intense scumread on a slot, like I do now, I sometimes go for the jugular. It's an aspect of my play I'm trying to change, but there are times when I slip right back into it, as Mastin can attest.

I sware to god this town is so fucking stupid. So is the goal to get as many mislynches as possible as fast as possible? Because I must say, you're doing pretty good.

Why are you referring to town in the third person, somewhat indicating you aren't part of them?

Why the face palm?

I'll explain after Aronis responds.

I haven't yet felt that Proto is scummy. His behavior about WKing Reinoe seems fine enough given the time frame at which it happened, after Reinoe self hammered,
I also haven't yet seen the case on Bulba being scum. I feel like it's basically town v. town here, especially considering how stale the rest of the content seems to be.

How was his WKing of Reinoe fine?

Instead of trying to prove your reads, you and Bulba are both being manipulative.

I'm sorry that you find evidence and logic to be manipulative.

Ok if the mod says its accurate, it is accurate, let's move on peeps.

Uh...no. I have no desire to move on. I think it is worth investigating why I have four votes. There is no reason for a town doublevoter or hidden voter not to disclose that fact.

Why is it that both you and Sns are so concerned over a double voter?

none of you is a double voter. quick vca from yesterday confirms this.
one option Toast mentioned to me was we might have a motivator. this would explain the extra vote, if someone was actually a dv they'd have to be stupid to put themselves in such a small wagon so early in the game.

A motivator will only allow a player to perform an extra night action, not vote twice the next day.

[Bulbazak]

And so Bulba continues to be dismissive.

I don't see how it's being dismissive. I've explained things thoroughly several times. You're just so far into conf. bias territory that you're not listening.

The same role exists where a player can give another an extra vote, I've played with one before, so what's your point?

It was probably a custom role then. I'm just saying what Motivators tend to do. I doubt Shos would be using a custom version of that role in this game.

[Bulbazak]

How was his WKing of Reinoe fine?

Because it came off more like "hurr durr this is funny" rather than "you guys are morons, he was obvious town."

We're obviously reading different games, because that's exactly what he did, only in this case he tried to venerate Reinoe and started lining up lynches based on the wagon before the flip even went through.

[Bulbazak]

Really? Let's ignore hindsight. What evidence was there that showed Reinoe being town that couldn't also be explained by him being panicky newb scum?

Again, just because he could be explained by his being newb scum does not mean that it is equally plausible that he was scum. My unequivocal impression was that he was town.

Not going to answer. Just like I thought.

Again, there's a massive amount of cognitive dissonance here. If I was scum, then I was doing my job by pushing that wagon.

Competent scum generally do not push terrible wagons that will lead to suspicion of its members.

A point that I've already made. So are you calling me incompetent scum? Or are you just floundering because you ended up backing yourself into a corner with that original statement?

You are obviously grossly unqualified to state that there is some objectively correct interpretation of reinoe's actions.

Maybe, but I know what it looked like at the time, and I have no idea how you magically got the opposite impression but yet can't be bothered to explain. Heck, I spelled out point for point why I thought he was scum. The only answer you could be bothered to give for your oh so strong townread was gut.

I never excused him of any responsibility. I simply acknowledged that the responsibility was not solely his.

For someone who is not excusing him of any responsibility, you sure do like to talk about how it's not his fault and everyone else's.

And given that your track record in this game is a clusterfuck mislynch of an

obvtown player

, maybe you should be more reserved in your predictions of what my actions will produce.

Please do go on about how Reinoe was obv. town.

I want to know whether that vote is controlled by scum (likely through the Ring) or town. That seems like useful info to me.

Double voters tend to be town, so that seems like rolefishing to me.

[Bulbazak]

And now you know why I face palmed.

I really haven't had a beef with Proto's posting. I just didn't see the WKing everyone said he was doing, and his posts today haven't terribad compared to others.

Read twilight of d1. That's all he did.

[Bulbazak]

And the game that is the equivalent of Mr. Magoo vs. The

Three

Two Stooges is over. Scum suffered from not being able to think before they acted, and town benefited by having all their competent players killed off so that they couldn't make the ideal town plays. I'm done. Screw this game!

[Bulbazak]

I would have pushed Reinoe and Proto as either alignment. Just saying.

[Bulbazak]

Reinoe's claim was exactly the problem, as I pointed out. If someone ever freaks out and claims under very little pressure, says that they're unkillable, and follows that up with "Don't lynch me guys or the scum will win!", then I will lynch them with fire, because 9 times out of 10 that's a scum claim due to the bastard role claim, the flailing, and the AtE. Not to mention the fact that if he's really unkillable, why is he 1.) claiming and putting a target on his back under little pressure and 2.) WORRYING ABOUT BEING KILLED? The speed lynch was bad. Aronis's vote was actually opportunistic. But in the end, it was Reinoe's fault, because not only did he make an obv. scum claim, but then he followed it up with a freaking self hammer! Every single competent player saw it. It was the derps who were left in charge of the town after Mastin's lynch that continued to stumble around in the dark and ignore how bad of a claim that was.

[Bulbazak]

@Toast: I was actually in the process of voting Reinoe when he made that claim. As soon as I saw that claim, the town voice in the back of my head went "Oh, heck no!".

[Bulbazak]

My original plan was to kill Guyett before Mylo/Lylo.