Open 566: Murder on the Oriental Express (Game Over)

[Belisarius]

Beli, please tone down the sarcasm just a tad as it's not necessary and does nothing to aid the conversation.

I'm afraid I'm going to go ahead and reject that unfounded stipulation -- and, by the transitive property, the demand premised by it.

[TobyLoby]

UNVOTE:

Your question looks pointless when I'm reading the thread and see a reason other then calling out a player because of a self vote.

My question for a singular individual is pointless because you see reason other than to call out a player because of a self-vote (their reasoning their own vote)? This doesn't make sense. All it does is try and make me feel bad.

Amy

, what are your thoughts on farside?

[TobyLoby]

VOTE: acryon

I'm going to disagree with some of Amy's thoughts on Acryon. Although he may be making original analysis, a lot of it is said when asked and a chunk of his posting has been quotes from the wiki or himself from another game. His rather quick response to Amy means he's following the thread but he's not actively contributing to it. We've also long past the RVS stage.

[TobyLoby]

Some people think Astinus may be a troll alt account, so I don't know how serious to take them or whether you can apply newb-tells to them.

[Baezu]

Vote Count 1.02

acryon: (1) TobyLoby
Mr_Blonde: (3) Farside22, Snugglyduckling, RoyalApe
Farside22: (3) Dry-fit, Belisarius, Chaoslord54
Astinus: (1) Astinus
Belisarius: (1) Amy Farrah Fowler
TobyLoby: (2) cerberus48, NakedJogger

Not Voting: acryon, Mr_Blonde, Skelda

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.

Deadline: (expired on 2014-09-09 18:18:00)

Mod Notes:
None

[cerberus48]

Unvote: TobyLoby

Belisarius's jump onto that wagon seemed scummy to me at first, but I also know that scum don't like to break silence like that. Adds up to a very slight scum read on him right now but other than that lynches should be going elsewhere today.

I think that the mini argument between Mr_Blonde and Farside was just silly, null read on both of them still.

Toby still peaks my town list, but again, these are all page four reads so take them with a truckload of salt.

[Dry-fit]

Do you think the bw on Amy caused much reaction?

Some. I have some ideas about it but I want to keep them to myself for now.

That's fair. So now that Farside has explained a bit - what do you think of her response?

It was okay. I think it's pretty clear that the reason Hiraki replaced out is because the game took so long to start though.

Vote:farside22

Your way of claiming is scummy, rather or not someone replaced out is not a read on their role and to argue as such is ridiculous. Also, your case against Mr.Blonde has no real evidence against it and I do not understand why a wagon is building on him so early because of a post where he said "let's dance."

Don't like this. The tone is overexaggerating the situation as the wagon on Mr Blonde is hardly major. This post looks like an attempt by chaos to position himself on the wagon rather than genuine concerns about farside's play or the Mr Blonde wagon.

Unvote. Vote: chaoslord54.

[Astinus]

Since my vote was a mistake, I will

Unvote

for now.

Some people think Astinus may be a troll alt account, so I don't know how serious to take them or whether you can apply newb-tells to them.

For the last time, I am not a troll alt. I just made some bad decisions. Now can we not mention that any more please? Thank you.

[Mr_Blonde]

Had a long day at school/work today... glad it's finally over.

I think the Farside thing has generated some good discussion. I'm in agreement with Acryon and Skelda regarding Farside's logic here, although perhaps to a lesser degree. I can

sort of

see where a Townie would think something like this, which is why I'm reticent of voting there. At the moment I am more interested in seeing her reads develop from this. She was questioned about it earlier by Toby iirc as to whether she felt her vote was still warranted and I have yet to see any follow up on that.

THAT is a bad sign imo.

I have no clue where meta came into this conversation. Nor where I even expect mr. Blond to defend my comment.
This is pretty simple people. 2 games I was in a player asked for replacement and both times those players were scum.
For me this better then average experience. Does this mea 100% lmets lynch mr. Blond. No
Did I tell people this is something that needs to happen. No
I stated a fact I have experienced.

You aren't outright saying that I should be lynched for it - no. But you used it as your reason for voting me and have since left it there despite the progression of the thread. Do you think that my play is congruent with your idea that I must be scum due to your experience? I think I have added enough content by now that you should be able to at least get SOME kind of read on me, and yet your vote remains.

So I ask plainly - do you think I am scum?

VOTE: Mr Blonde, sorry I missed your birthday. Have a belated b-day vote.

Thanks?

Any opinion on what's happened thus far?

If I were to pick out my two strongest townreads at this point (yes, it is exceptionally early in the game, but just from the little data we have so far), they would be acryon and Skelda. Both have posted fairly thorough posts which have a good amount of analysis and opinion in there, both of which have contained some original (i.e. not re-worded off someone else) analysis.

I can see how you'd have these two are your top townreads. I would consider Acryon one of mine as well for his earlier post stating his opinion on the current content as well as his statement regarding RVS votes - which I likewise agree with.

I like Skelda's commentary regarding Farside and the votes by Beli and Chaos.

I personally have Acryon, DF, and Duckling all as town leans atm.

Do you have any player(s) that you're leaning scum on currently besides Beli?

Unvote: TobyLoby

...

Toby still peaks my town list, but again, these are all page four reads so take them with a truckload of salt.

Toby is your #1 town read? Can you explain the vote/unvote?

Some people think Astinus may be a troll alt account, so I don't know how serious to take them or whether you can apply newb-tells to them.

Is this really a thing that happens here? lol

[Mr_Blonde]

Oh, and VOTE: Chaos

While I'm not ready to clear Farside as derptown, I can see how

maybe

she is. Until I see more to give me a better read, I think some pressure would be good in this direction considering the ease in which he jumped onto the wagon.

[Mr_Blonde]

@MOD - I'll be V/LA through the weekend. Have some family coming into town although I *should* be able to post at least once a day.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Amy

, what are your thoughts on farside?

I can see that farside isn't simply pushing her replacement tell (I'll call it that for now). She's also involved in other elements of the game, commenting and asking question, so townpoints to her in that respect, as I've noticed that sometimes scum looking to lynch town tend to spend all their time focusing on their lynch target of choice.
As for her replacement tell, whatever my personal thoughts on it may be, it looks like she genuinely believes in it. Scum using it ONLY to lynch someone would've probably dropped the case much earlier without bothering to do things like bringing up evidence. She is also analyzing Mr Blonde's reactions, adding to the fact that it's genuine.
So I'd say I can classify farside as Null/Town.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Do you have any player(s) that you're leaning scum on currently besides Beli?

Chaos, for reasons that I can see other people have mentioned before, in addition to the fact that, when ISO'ing him, I noticed that his only serious post was the hop onto the wagon. No other opinions, no questioning, just that. It adds to the scumminess of the wagon jump.

[farside22]

Finally have more then 5 minutes to do some reading.

I have no clue where meta came into this conversation. Nor where I even expect mr. Blond to defend my comment.
This is pretty simple people. 2 games I was in a player asked for replacement and both times those players were scum.
For me this better then average experience. Does this mea 100% lmets lynch mr. Blond. No
Did I tell people this is something that needs to happen. No
I stated a fact I have experienced.

Oh, well 2 is certainly a scientifically rigorous sample size. Can't argue with science!

I'd still rather lynch you because the faeries told me to.

Let me ask you, because this is specific and rare.
How many games do you see people request replacement pregame and still active on site?
The reason my number is small is it very rarely happens.
Either you have some newb that requested replacement for a game do to some reason or mass replacement request.
This is a rare only seen it happen twice and both where scum events.

Vote:farside22

Your way of claiming is scummy, rather or not someone replaced out is not a read on their role and to argue as such is ridiculous. Also, your case against Mr.Blonde has no real evidence against it and I do not understand why a wagon is building on him so early because of a post where he said "let's dance."

There is no wagon.
Also wonder if you read what I stated.
One thing I said was I don't expect people to agree.
So already I'm aware that the point doesn't hold much water.
Now why is this scummy to you?

[farside22]

UNVOTE:

Your question looks pointless when I'm reading the thread and see a reason other then calling out a player because of a self vote.

My question for a singular individual is pointless because you see reason other than to call out a player because of a self-vote (their reasoning their own vote)? This doesn't make sense. All it does is try and make me feel bad.

Amy

, what are your thoughts on farside?

Is there a reason you keep dodging my questions?
I gave my thoughts and I was looking for yours.

Unvote: TobyLoby

Belisarius's jump onto that wagon seemed scummy to me at first, but I also know that scum don't like to break silence like that. Adds up to a very slight scum read on him right now but other than that lynches should be going elsewhere today.

I think that the mini argument between Mr_Blonde and Farside was just silly, null read on both of them still.

Toby still peaks my town list, but again, these are all page four reads so take them with a truckload of salt.

Please explain the vote and now town read on Toby?


@mr. Blond: I'm working in my reads at this point.
At this point I didn't like bel or chaos. I feel both jumped to false conclusions based on my statement.
1 (bel) acts like I was pushing my case in a scummy way but I don't see where a null tell in his view = scum tell.
2 (chaos) does not explain what makes anything I said scummy and then lies about a supposed wagon.

I really feel like Toby is dodging questions he can't answer. I've asked 3 times for her to tell me her thoughts but continues to side step the question and I don't see why a simple question continues to be dodged repeatedly.
It's not even my first question I care about, which is obviously snarky it was the other two.

Again questions were

What was your view of astinus self vote after asking if it was okay? Does it really help or do anything to switch rvs to oneself?

Vote: Toby

[farside22]

VOTE: acryon

I'm going to disagree with some of Amy's thoughts on Acryon. Although he may be making original analysis, a lot of it is said when asked and a chunk of his posting has been quotes from the wiki or himself from another game. His rather quick response to Amy means he's following the thread but he's not actively contributing to it. We've also long past the RVS stage.

Wait I missed this.

How do you know his comments are from other games? Like exact words that he quoted?

[farside22]

Sorry for the multi posting. I phone post and I read, react, read more, react.

Toby: where you referencing post 66 from acryon?
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p6158372
This post?

[Belisarius]

Let me ask you, because this is specific and rare.

Rare? This game required

four

replacements pregame. In a mini. Wow, that's a lot of scum for a mini. Better lynch all of the pregame replacements. Let's start with you. If you flip town, I'll volunteer to go next.

So, here's my list of pre-game replacement list without [citation needed] tags:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4600081 - Blueberry requested replacement pregame. Replacement flipped town.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=29453 - Xdaamno replaced Moon; Replacement won with the town (NB: It's not explicitly stated that Moon requested replacement, but there was no large delay during confirmation/draft phase that would result from a player failing to pick up their role PM or communicate with the mod)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=31072 - Sakura Hana requested replacement pregame. Replacement was town, and delicious.

Conclusion: Similar sample size to yours, because yes, I'll concede it's rare. I, however, arrived at exactly the opposite result as you, which is why

miniscule sample sizes are not statistically relevant

.

[Belisarius]

Wow, that was confusing; first paragraph was referring to pre-game replacements in general, the rest to player-requested pre-game replacements.

[acryon]

VOTE: acryon

I'm going to disagree with some of Amy's thoughts on Acryon. Although he may be making original analysis, a lot of it is said when asked and a chunk of his posting has been quotes from the wiki or himself from another game. His rather quick response to Amy means he's following the thread but he's not actively contributing to it. We've also long past the RVS stage.

That's fair. For what it's worth, I was still putting together things to add to the thread, but when Amy asked, I figured it was good a time as any to just post what I had.

VOTE: acryon

I'm going to disagree with some of Amy's thoughts on Acryon. Although he may be making original analysis, a lot of it is said when asked and a chunk of his posting has been quotes from the wiki or himself from another game. His rather quick response to Amy means he's following the thread but he's not actively contributing to it. We've also long past the RVS stage.

Wait I missed this.

How do you know his comments are from other games? Like exact words that he quoted?

She is probably referring to this:

I'll just quote myself from another game for the short answer for why I haven't voted:
"If you look at my filter, you'll see that I tend to not vote in RVS. I think that a handful of RVS votes is good to start things up, but I also think that too many can reduce the impact and responses we could get from just a handful. Scum can hide well when it's too noisy, so I prefer to not add to the noise."

Oh, and VOTE: Chaos

While I'm not ready to clear Farside as derptown, I can see how

maybe

she is. Until I see more to give me a better read, I think some pressure would be good in this direction considering the ease in which he jumped onto the wagon.

Re-reading through, I like Chaos's strawman even less now than I did before.
VOTE: Chaos

[farside22]

Let me ask you, because this is specific and rare.

Rare? This game required

four

replacements pregame. In a mini. Wow, that's a lot of scum for a mini. Better lynch all of the pregame replacements. Let's start with you. If you flip town, I'll volunteer to go next.

So, here's my list of pre-game replacement list without [citation needed] tags:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p4600081 - Blueberry requested replacement pregame. Replacement flipped town.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=29453 - Xdaamno replaced Moon; Replacement won with the town (NB: It's not explicitly stated that Moon requested replacement, but there was no large delay during confirmation/draft phase that would result from a player failing to pick up their role PM or communicate with the mod)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=31072 - Sakura Hana requested replacement pregame. Replacement was town, and delicious.

Conclusion: Similar sample size to yours, because yes, I'll concede it's rare. I, however, arrived at exactly the opposite result as you, which is why

miniscule sample sizes are not statistically relevant

.

I check 2 of these and I'm pretty sure based on what you showed me on those 2 alone you did not read the specific signs that are not normal
The one you missed with moon and blueberry is they were not active elsewhere.
Moon http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?k ... mit=Search
Blackberry
http://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php?k ... mit=Search

Why are you wasting my time showing that what I specified is wrong if you supply misleading info?

[farside22]

Bel since you snipped it, this is my question.

How many games do you see people request replacement pregame and still active on site?

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Let me ask you, because this is specific and rare.

Rare? This game required

four

replacements pregame. In a mini. Wow, that's a lot of scum for a mini. Better lynch all of the pregame replacements. Let's start with you. If you flip town, I'll volunteer to go next.

I don't know whether you're an idiot or just scum trying to push something that's a 'good reason for a lynch'.

That's not what farside is saying. Farside said that typically requesting to be replaced while being active elsewhere on the site is a tell indicative of a scum slot. I haven't had enough direct experience with cases like that to push for either side of the argument myself, but I get the theory.

Why are you turning this into argumentum ad absurdum by changing the argument to involve all replacements, requested or not? Stop inflating something to a ridiculous level and then criticizing the outcome, because that's dumb and won't give you any towncred whatsoever.

[farside22]

@acyron: I figured she was but I was trying to understand why she focused on one part of the post and not the rest
I get the impression Toby is not reading things in full.

[Amy Farrah Fowler]

Also, Beli, do you have any thoughts on anyone else playing in this game? All you've done so far is repeated yourself and tunnelled farside.