Open 570: Making Friends and Enemies (Mafia Wins!)

[Shinobi]

You're acting like I should have solid reads on every single player in the game right now and I don't.

Mala isn't posting so I can't question her.
GM is hardly playing so I can't question her. I've already tried asking you about her and you're just like "nah I don't think stuff about that stuff." I thought she was scummy earlier but I guess that just kind of evaporated into nothingness because you wanted it to.
Heph isn't playing so I can't question him.
I've had a townread on BBT for a while now and I don't know how you missed that.
I think you're town and I've explained that read.
I've already discovered that uct is town.
I think Josh is scum and I've explained why.
I don't feel like the dave case is strong, and I have a slight gut townread on him but that's it.

Realistically the only players I don't really have reads on for whatever reason are Peabody and Huntress, and I think it's more-or-less a lack of interest in those players. I don't know what you're doing here.

[Shinobi]

By my own self-admitted meta analysis, me ignoring Peabody and Huntress probably makes both of them scum because they are boring.

Qed.

[Peabody]

Wisdom, if BBT and Shinobi are scum, which scum is on the NPAU wagon?

Or do you think NPAU wagon was entirely town?

I'm trying to decide on the answer myself. Huntress, Dave, or Uct I think has at least one scum in it. I have a strong town read on Mala and Wisdom.

[Wisdom]

You're acting like I should have solid reads on every single player in the game right now and I don't.

Solid maybe not. Some kind of read, yes.

[Wisdom]

Mala isn't posting so I can't question her.

And? She has posted plenty of content for you to have a read on her.

GM is hardly playing so I can't question her. I've already tried asking you about her and you're just like "nah I don't think stuff about that stuff." I thought she was scummy earlier but I guess that just kind of evaporated into nothingness because you wanted it to.

Same as Mala, and what? You asked me if I think something she did was scummy and I told you no. That was all. I more see that as a subtle way of you trying to make me scumread goodmorning than actually caring about reading goodmorning.

Heph isn't playing so I can't question him.

And that magically prevents you from having a read on him.

I've already discovered that uct is town.

Static read. After the 1v1, you should be questioning everything uct is doing, yet you don't care in the slightest. You labelled him town when it was convenient and left it at that.

Non-existent reads where you should have reads and the rest are weak and static.

[Shinobi]

I gave a townread on Mala - early - which you yourself commented on. I can't follow up on what she's doing now because she isn't doing anything.
Yes, Heph not playing magically prevents me from having a read on him. Magically.
Your comment on me subtly trying to get you to scumread GM is tinfoiling so hard that it's coming out of your nose. Maybe I just wanted your opinion on something I viewed as scummy. Apparently this isn't an acceptable answer to you.

I don't care about what uct is doing because I think he's town. It has nothing to do with "convenience;" it has everything to do with "I am wrong about uct and I see no reason to change my read." Again - what am I supposed to be suspicious of here? You keep dictating what I should/shouldn't be doing and it's ridiculous.

[Wisdom]

Wisdom, if BBT and Shinobi are scum, which scum is on the NPAU wagon?

Or do you think NPAU wagon was entirely town?

Don't particularly care about that wagon, seeing how it was a panicky last minute one and stuff. Plus practically everyone had expressed a scumread on npiau at some point, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was all town.

[davesaz]

I too would not be surprised if the whole NPAU wagon was town. There were plenty of people watching and ignoring what was going on there. And there were people who were on at one point and ended up off. Scum who can get off in lieu of town who are willing to push the mislynch end up looking townish, with the bonus ability to attack the town who stayed on the wagon.

This is a factor in the logic which had me thinking BBT's attack on me was scum motivated. He gets on the wagon, notices I'm waffling and therefore a future target, gets off the wagon and goes back to GM which is where he started. Today he attacks me, meets real resistance and backs off. IIRC (going by memory because I'm working and in a hurry) he jumps on Josh and backs off when he sees town leaving that wagon. Won't give a solid scum read now. He jumped back to the comfort zone of GM, and then unvoted again. What's with running back to the GM wagon every time a wagon starts to lose traction?

Not going to sheep onto Shinobi, but I do plan to review him after work, as well as some others.

[Wisdom]

This, yeah. It feels like goodmorning is his safe go-to when his tunnels on others don't get support.

[Shinobi]

Rofl.

Okay.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, finished my ISO of Wisdom. I may have more to add in at a later time/date after analyzing the VC's.

Can everybody read this please. I know it's long, but I would really value some input.

Right now, there is almost definitely one scum in Wisdom/Josh/Pea. Possibly two.

In Wisdom's first post, 1068, he states he is scum-reading Pea. This is a recurring theme throughout.

1077 - Still scum-reading Pea.

1089 - Still scum-reading Pea.

1105 - Presents reasons for Pea being scum.

1106 - Finally votes Pea.

Now, here he decides to start White-knighting Dave. He spends roughly the next 8 pages white-knighting Dave. Hard - 1108, 1122, 1125, 1132, 1139, 1142, 1148, 1150, 1156, 1161, 1167, 1169, 1194, 1281. This just feels wrong. If Dave was under threat of a lynch, I can understand him jumping to his defence, but it was just me pushing. Wisdom got himself hugely invested in something that had nothing to do with him, and I have to ask myself why? I think this was a great opportunity for Wisdom to gain himself some town-cred. He went to great lengths to discredit my case and even flat out answer questions that were directed at Dave.

1128 - Wisdom is still town-reading me.

1137 - Refused to explain town-read on Dave, who he had been heavily defending, but was happy to explain town-read on Uct. I never did get answer as to why this was the case? I've noticed that Wisdom can be fluffy with his reads, and he also later went on to explain his town-read once the situation had died down. More on that later.

1174 - Wisdom is still town-reading me. Despite my persistence on pushing Dave.

There is now a sudden change in his read. He goes from saying 'He promises I am most likely town' to;

1205 - Scum-reading me. I would like to know what happened between 1174 and 1205 that changed this read.

1319 & 1321 - Begins to scum-read Josh. Votes Pea...what? Well, I guess he has been scum-reading him the entire game whilst not actually pressing for his lynch.

1369 - Votes Josh. He moves off his biggest scum-read who he has been scum-reading the entire game onto a new target. Conveniently, Josh's wagon looks like it was in the ascendency at this point.

1393 - States why Pea is scum, but he's pushing whilst his vote is elsewhere. Why?

1428 - Yay, he finally explains his town-read on Dave. It's almost 300 posts late, but we got it in the end. The problem is, he tries to use reasons that didn't happen until AFTER he started town-reading Dave. This leads me to believe it was in fact an attempt at WK'ing to gain the town's trust and credit. He had no reason to involve himself and could not explain his town-read when first asked.

1477 - Explains his scum-read on Josh. So, everything he thought is still relevant at this point. Josh is at L-2 and he continues his argument.

1533 - Unvotes Josh - because he's scared of scum self-hammering...what? I'm thinking this was a bus from Wisdom, I really can't make my mind up though.

1559 - Completely retracts everything. Josh and Pea are now town. Seriously. He actually did that.

One of those three is scum, possibly two. I'm most confident about Wisdom, the fact he has been scum-reading Pea for the entirety of the game and never actually pushed it hard is a little concerning.

It's even more concerning when you consider that 'He tunnels harder than I do.' Really? Because I don't see it. It leads me to believe that Pea is scum as well, Wisdom has been soft-bussing all game and that Josh is actually town.

But if Josh is town, why did Wisdom unvote? Did he think his work was done? Josh's lynch would be pushed through now and he could absolve himself of any responsibility by jumping off. I don't know. This is where I really need input.

[Wisdom]

^tl;dr
Wisdom changes his reads a lot
Wisdom strongly defends his reads

[Josh_B]

Oh jeeze. Now it's my turn to sit back and throw stones while someone else does all the work, shinobi style.

Watching Wisdom question Shinobi is like watching my 5 year old dig out icecream with a plastic spoon. But hey look, a clear and clever contradiction.

You keep dictating what I should/shouldn't be doing and it's ridiculous.

Reminds me of a time not so long ago at the beginning of this DP. When a certain somebody was upset that somebody else didn't do enough to stop a wagon.

I support a Shinobi lynch

[Wisdom]

In Wisdom's first post, 1068, he states he is scum-reading Pea. This is a recurring theme throughout.

1077 - Still scum-reading Pea.

1089 - Still scum-reading Pea.

1105 - Presents reasons for Pea being scum.

1106 - Finally votes Pea.

This whole section contradicts your latter "He never pushed Pea".

Now, here he decides to start White-knighting Dave. He spends roughly the next 8 pages white-knighting Dave. Hard - 1108, 1122, 1125, 1132, 1139, 1142, 1148, 1150, 1156, 1161, 1167, 1169, 1194, 1281. This just feels wrong. If Dave was under threat of a lynch, I can understand him jumping to his defence, but it was just me pushing. Wisdom got himself hugely invested in something that had nothing to do with him, and I have to ask myself why? I think this was a great opportunity for Wisdom to gain himself some town-cred. He went to great lengths to discredit my case and even flat out answer questions that were directed at Dave.

Here is where I quite simply defended Dave from your terrible push. Which is what happens when I think someone is town. I thought you are also town and are tunneling on him, and tried making you realize you're tunneling and stop. You ignored me, and this started slowly raising flags regarding you.

1137 - Refused to explain town-read on Dave, who he had been heavily defending, but was happy to explain town-read on Uct. I never did get answer as to why this was the case? I've noticed that Wisdom can be fluffy with his reads, and he also later went on to explain his town-read once the situation had died down. More on that later.

There was no reason for me to explain anything to you because quite simply, you weren't listening. When Mala asked me about hephaestus (and not Uct), I answered to her.
Yup, I can be fluffy with my reads. I only explain them fully if I feel it's important.

1174 - Wisdom is still town-reading me. Despite my persistence on pushing Dave.

mhm. Still gave you the benefit of the doubt. You're a tunnely player like me so I wanted to believe that you're just being blind and not listening. I started dropping that as time passed and you still weren't moving an inch from your position.

There is now a sudden change in his read. He goes from saying 'He promises I am most likely town' to;

1205 - Scum-reading me. I would like to know what happened between 1174 and 1205 that changed this read.

I grew tired. You didn't want to listen to reason. Meant you didn't care about reason. Meant you might easily be scum.

1319 & 1321 - Begins to scum-read Josh. Votes Pea...what? Well, I guess he has been scum-reading him the entire game whilst not actually pressing for his lynch.

josh was a weaker scumread for D2, I voted him because I wanted to engage him and find out more. Pea was not around so I figured I can use the time to sort my other reads.

1369 - Votes Josh. He moves off his biggest scum-read who he has been scum-reading the entire game onto a new target. Conveniently, Josh's wagon looks like it was in the ascendency at this point.

It was, which helped putting pressure on him.

1393 - States why Pea is scum, but he's pushing whilst his vote is elsewhere. Why?

Because I have multiple scumreads. Pea was still scum for me, but at that moment I was still pressuring josh.

1428 - Yay, he finally explains his town-read on Dave. It's almost 300 posts late, but we got it in the end. The problem is, he tries to use reasons that didn't happen until AFTER he started town-reading Dave. This leads me to believe it was in fact an attempt at WK'ing to gain the town's trust and credit. He had no reason to involve himself and could not explain his town-read when first asked.

Yep, and I explain it because someone other than you wants to know. My reason was still that I liked his posts, which was the original reason I had given to begin with. The townslip was an extra referring to my then-current read.
Believe me, I'm skilled enough to explain my townreads when I want to WK as scum.

1533 - Unvotes Josh - because he's scared of scum self-hammering...what? I'm thinking this was a bus from Wisdom, I really can't make my mind up though.

I was still pretty sure Josh is scum and might self-hammer so halt discussion that could help in finding his buddies. Didn't need that happening.

1559 - Completely retracts everything. Josh and Pea are now town. Seriously. He actually did that.

Yep. Hard reset.

One of those three is scum, possibly two. I'm most confident about Wisdom, the fact he has been scum-reading Pea for the entirety of the game and never actually pushed it hard is a little concerning.

Blah blah. You're not voting me. And you're contradicting yourself as I already said. You yourself mentioned I was pushing and voting Pea in the first section of this post. As for why that didn't continue, as I already explained I tried sorting the rest of my reads while Pea wasn't around to answer to my questions.

It's even more concerning when you consider that 'He tunnels harder than I do.' Really? Because I don't see it. It leads me to believe that Pea is scum as well, Wisdom has been soft-bussing all game and that Josh is actually town.

Oh I'm notorious for my deathtunneling. I'm starting to fix it now though.

But if Josh is town, why did Wisdom unvote? Did he think his work was done? Josh's lynch would be pushed through now and he could absolve himself of any responsibility by jumping off. I don't know. This is where I really need input.

You already said why you think I did it in a previous post: To get a claim from Josh and move onto someone else, no?
You're not saying it here because you want people to think of it by themselves. Manipulation at its best.

As for why I really unvoted, already explained.

[Peabody]

Why would a scum!Wisdom change his reads from Josh when he was at L-1?

UNVOTE:

(^so nothing happens yet)

[Wisdom]

I support a Shinobi lynch

Not seeing your vote

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Wisdom

[Peabody]

Oh wow, ninja'd by like 3 people.

[Josh_B]

But if Josh is town, why did Wisdom unvote? Did he think his work was done? Josh's lynch would be pushed through now and he could absolve himself of any responsibility by jumping off. I don't know. This is where I really need input.

A Josh town flip would look really bad for him. Suspicious Josh gives him more town credit.

[Peabody]

BBT, did you decide Dave was town or not?

[Wisdom]

But if Josh is town, why did Wisdom unvote? Did he think his work was done? Josh's lynch would be pushed through now and he could absolve himself of any responsibility by jumping off. I don't know. This is where I really need input.

A Josh town flip would look really bad for him. Suspicious Josh gives him more town credit.

I've never cared about that. I'd argue you were a terrible townie (which you kinda are, if you are town, but more on that at endgame) and move on.

[Malakittens]

Why would a scum!Wisdom change his reads from Josh when he was at L-1?

UNVOTE:

(^so nothing happens yet)

Prob not

[Josh_B]

I've never cared about that. I'd argue you were a terrible townie (which you kinda are, if you are town, but more on that at endgame) and move on.

Speaking of terrible townie, I just /in'd for a game with Beck. If you and BlueBloodedToffee sign up, maybe we can get the mod to change the name of the game to HedgeHog mafia and get a memorable moment for "The one where everyone tunneled the crap out of each other." Or I may just /in to mod my own invitation only game for tunnelers only and call it a headache.

[Malakittens]

Ugh never.

[Josh_B]

Not voting(5):Malakittens, hephaestus, gooodmorning, Huntress

I don't want to pressure anyone into making a decision, but this vote count looks like we're in mylo.