Mini 1623

[mykonian]

I can't randomly vote because there are too many people with stupid nicknames. They couldn't all be scum.

[mykonian]

VOTE: mykonian for not random voting

Neither are you...

[mykonian]

sup myko, nat, flubbs, boon, ft, boon

hi anatole.

VOTE: mykonian for not random voting

Neither are you...

what's your point?

That I would be very surprised if nobody voted me for that post. Question was more when it happened. Which was really quick, you really liked that opportunity.

Hence, hardly random. You took the mainstream approach, hence you are lame.

Thoughts on Flubber?

well, aren't you a brilliant shitposter.

[mykonian]

Lol, too bad if I'm lame but if a play is mainstream as you call it, there usually is a reason why. So why did you chose to make a post you knew would be potentially seen as scummy, starting the WIFOM game early?

Oh, yes, there's a reason. It has nothing to do with scumminess. Good luck explaining how that post is scummy.

[mykonian]

So you are just a hypocrit then. Voting me for not voting randomly, but neither are you.

Also, "is generally accepted" should give you a hint you were making a bullshit argument. You avoid having to give a reasoning because you don't have it. And you were aware. Why argue for something you don't even know is true, copper?

[mykonian]

Mafia is a complex game, there is no one truth about how to play and I am willing to accept different ways to go about it if the player using them brings something to the table, that's why I said generally accepted. Why should that mean it's a bullshit argument?

Because you are using an appeal to common knowledge to avoid having an actual basis for your argument.

[mykonian]

yes, but that's only because I'm pushing you now. You make up the argument as you go. So your vote is more important to you than having a reason for it, it's been build out a long way from where it was already.

Why are you trying to mislynch me?

[mykonian]

Doesn't seem like you are the one trying to get information. Somehow you are insistent on voting me, but you don't know why, since your reasons keep changing with every post.

[mykonian]

What do you mean, pressure. That's not how it works. I invited someone to vote me, you did, you now have tried to explain your vote a couple of times and still don't get that the only reason you are voting me is because I'm stroking against your grain. There's nothing particulary scummy about calling nonparticular names stupid, RVS is there to spawn discussion, that goal was made, I'd say, so all that's really left is that you were annoyed about someone not following your personal view of how a game should go.

So now I get to figure out if you simply were clueless or because you think it's a good idea to lock in and argue (and are scum consequently). What side are you leaning?

[mykonian]

Actually, don't really need that answer, do I. It's as good as I'm going to get page 3.

vote copper

Basically for building out the case as he went. Would be a little more damning if I knew the guy better, would also be a little more damning if it wasn't in the first 3 pages.

[mykonian]

Nah, I don't. On the other hand, I have a vague clue what is going to happen when I make a post like that. It has nothing to do with a decision, games go this way. 95% of the games I don't make a vote in the first post. Few people are so mindlessly interested in it though, which is a curiosity.

Also, I more or less gave you the option between clueless or scum, and that's always a fun way to return the case to the player

[mykonian]

Dude. It's been there all the time.

Hence, clueless or scum, what's it going to be?

[mykonian]

well, he's scum this game actually. So lets lynch him and deal with it.

vote flubber

[mykonian]

eh, not really. It didn't really spread which is a shame.

Why aren't you voting flubber with me? He's scum. Anyone can see that.

[mykonian]

you are weird.

why no flubber vote?

[mykonian]

It's because I fucked up your micro isn't it.

That's some odd logic. You were town there. We'd have to wait a couple of days for you to fuck up to use that tell.

Nah flubber, the difference is that you are scum here.

[mykonian]

dude, just read his posts... how can you not see? It's not that he's blunt, plenty of people are. He's scummy.

[mykonian]

nah, I've just had a game where I modded him and followed it from the top, a game where I was scum with him and followed his play all game, this isn't just flubber.

Why are you defending him so hard?

[mykonian]

I don't care about him changing his game. Either he does or he doesn't, but it's not my problem. All I have to do is to learn to read him. He's scum here.

[mykonian]

I'm just popping in with what little reads I've developed so far.

I see nothing bad in Copper and Mykonian's interaction earlier. They both seemed to want to get more information out and develop reads. Town points for both of them.

Flubber is looking more scummy than anyone at the moment, but it's too early for me to feel confident in that read, and I don't like that Myko seems so sure about it right now.

Playing mafia is like... swimming in a pool. You stand there in your speedo thinking "this water is going to be cold". brr. Already cooling down yourself there. If you dip your foot in, the water really isn't going to get warmer, and indeed, the water is cold. So you stand there. Are you going to use the ladder? Water gets to your calves. Cold cold cold. Up to your tighs. aaaah! Your torso is even warmer so dipping so far is cold again. The trick is to dive in. Your body will have to get used to the temperature anyway, no use in focussing on every single part doing it.

So what are you doing on that ladder anyway.

[mykonian]

That's a nice metaphor, but any sort of analysis, like a game of Mafia, relies on you keeping an open mind. Being so confident in what's basically a gut read at this point leads to tunneling, which is a bad thing. On top of that, the most likely explanation in my mind for someone being so confident in a read with this little content out there is because he's mafia, and therefore doesn't have to guess.

all you have to make sure is that you are tunneling on scum. I was voting copper, I'm not anymore. I don't think tunneling is the issue. Being decisive is.

I mean, this is ms, we are going to talk around for 7 days then the deadline comes close and we hope we end up on scum. Otherwise we get

nervous

. I'm bored of that. I see scum, I want him lynched, I'll tell you at any time of the day. You can wait a couple more days if you want.

[mykonian]

... I necessarily can't read him. That being said, I'm not going to vote Flubber because I can't read him. Not at this point of the game. We'd get absolutely no information either way. At this point I'd like to pursue some people who are currently voting Flubber.

Eww.

You can't read him, that prohibits you from voting him now (but that might change who knows???), you think information lynches are a thing, you want to vote people voting flubber because ???

There are so many things wrong with this post.

[mykonian]

or simply imply a limited choice if you want to go less evil mastermind more common scum.

[mykonian]

Flubber, I have never seen you issue a list of reads this confidently on day one.

I knew I liked you.

[mykonian]

And I don't know if the world is yet ready for my grand flubber/swag/?? conspiracy

I don't think it is, sorry.

[mykonian]

the effort is appreciated though.

[mykonian]

I'll watch this one.

[mykonian]

yes, lets talk about definitions.

actually, lets not. It sucks.

[mykonian]

ah, but that has little to do with finding scum. Though we pretend otherwise.

I'm happy you moved away from swag. That way lies trouble.

[mykonian]

ah, but that has little to do with finding scum. Though we pretend otherwise.

I'm happy you moved away from swag. That way lies trouble.

wouldn't you agree that even in the sparse posting he's done, that tonally flubber is completely different from Oman's game?

oh, yes. I tried to respond to the "liking you" part. I agree that he's scum.

[mykonian]

also fuduzn, I get what you are saying about copper. In my experience that can be a newb tell as well, for me it goes either way.

[mykonian]

Am I town now

heh.

no.

[mykonian]

One thing though myknonian we have to address.

Why were you fairly quick to point out that what copper is doing a newb and not a scum tell?

To the mykonian iso train we go!

Because I went along that train of thought myself and couldn't be bothered to figure out which it was a couple of pages in. Was a case of: been there, done that.

EDIT: could be doing a newb tell. I don't know and I can't find out as of now.

[mykonian]

Dude, this isn't close to flubber town, it ticks a lot of boxes of scum: conclusion, flubber is scum. I'm not voting him because he's useless, can't be bothered with that. You are useless to me, I'm not voting you, while historically I absolutely detest players like you.

I am not buddying with Flubber, just that my reads are better than most of yours.

Calling bullshit!

[mykonian]

I'm not quite sure where this illusion comes from that scum would want to powermislynch flubber day one. He's getting himself lynched if you do nothing. I'd know what I would do as scum. Hop on when the time has come, let the townies lead the mislynch.

[mykonian]

Now we wait for a couple of replacements, see if there's an extension in store, ask for your claim and then lynch you.

[mykonian]

yeah, I suspect Empking wouldn't like that very much.

[mykonian]

he could also skip some steps and prepare his fakeclaim now. I think the proper way of doing it nowadays is to softclaim a PR first then have people ask you after which you fully fakeclaim.

[mykonian]

I have no clue why you are so focussed on lurking or not.

You are scum here. You weren't there.

[mykonian]

If Boon's scum, flubber wasn't. You are town regardless. Theory I don't know about.

[mykonian]

Plus, you can't seriously trust boon as town with his uber defense of you out of nowhere.

Also last post was terrible.

UNVOTE: Flubber

Folks, I really need someone elses opinion on swag's thing, preferably someone with reasonable experience. His point is basically that everyone is full of shit regardless of anything and no one should bother to try to do anything useful 'cause they're bound to fail, even if he's applying it selectively. I only know that it moves something inside me, but I don't actually know if scum or town would post something like this and why. That's really a major part of this game imo, please help me out, let's have a few posts of theory discussion, however I'd hate that in other scenarios, please.

He sounds like a guy.
Comes with the package.

the Nati vote right from flubber right after me seems like a possible attempt to drag me down as scum if he is lynched. Town read decreasing a little bit

@Flubber, please give an explnation on why you voted Nati, and especially right after my vote.

PoE/Minimal content

4/10. You made the effort to make a post after all, lets credit you for that.

[mykonian]

boo

[mykonian]

or, you know, we could just lynch flubber.

[mykonian]

That seems like a bad plan. Lets not do it.

[mykonian]

he's shaking things up, I guess. He can sit with swag.

Also, I'm in a poor mood, who wants to talk with me?

[mykonian]

convince me you're town

You've already convinced yourself. You can be cool in your own thoughts.

I don't believe I was scum reading AK? I have been falling behind in this game lately, and I apologize for that. Been busy in real life.

I made a comment about how Anatole, as scum, would be able to pull off a gambit. I believe it was just commenting on Nati's reads of the player list as a whole.

Myko/swag/Dessew/copper/CT are the people I'm not town reading right now. No specific order, and if certain ones of them flip scum, it would definitely change my reads. Also, I believe I defended Flubber

before

swag, so I didn't jump on anything.

well, just when I thought you couldn't do worse.

god you are really trying.

[mykonian]

Mykonian wanting a noon lynch
Makes me want one less now

We don't negotiate with terrorists.

[mykonian]

it's not a riddle, it's a cliche.

[mykonian]

As a counter to this can we please not have an extension and just modkill any slots if they become to troublesome?

you ain't that old

despite the avi.

[mykonian]

This is why I fucking hate being a town PR, ignorance in people who vote people for pretty much no reason.

oooh, it's not flubber doing it, but you! This is so awesome. There's the fake softclaim so now we are supposed to ask what you really are and you have some time to think etc.

Boon's a good second best anyway. Shame flubber couldn't happen today. Should boon flip scum, I probably was wrong about flubber.

vote boon

[mykonian]

One more, please.

Lets prove copper wrong that this game is silly and lets grow some balls. We've had one serious wagon pre-deadline all because you wusses did nothing but play

against

wagons, needing more

time

. Result is that nothing happen till suddenly the deadline was upon us. What a surprise.

[mykonian]

@dessew

You can hardly be opposed to a boon lynch though, regardless of the connections. Don't think flubber will get killed tonight, you'll get your answer.

[mykonian]

Mine was the L-1 vote, I think.

But ty for the hammer. This day took too long as it was.

[mykonian]

WTF, sorry, myko did vote at the end of a line.

Oh come on. For once in your life you appeared to be decisive. It's a good vote. He softclaimed early when run up, he looked scummy in his defense of flubber, we could do worse day one.

[mykonian]

It was about doing nothing other than post against an extension, which is so anti town it's almost like your hammer on a PR claim without declaring intent, if Boon flips PR you should be auto-lynched just on general principle.

This is awful.

[mykonian]

You are awful for not putting L-1 on you L-1 vote.

shrug. Even if I don't adhere to your formalized mafia rules, it's pretty hard to miss that my next post asks for "one more vote".

This isn't a particulary hard game, but it invites you to think. It would be nice if you chose to do so, in stead of blindly following rules. Even if boon ends up being a pr, dessew couldn't know as either allignment, the softclaim looks shady. It'd be silly to automatically lynch him for that and deny any other responsibility, esspecially as you and many others including me really had no qualms with dessews play.

or in other words, I might be awful, but not as awful as you are

[mykonian]

My thoughts during the night:

ObvTown: Dessew (hammer), copper (silly and leading), Fuduzn (298, picks the scum out of swag/boon)
town: swag, CT (limited choice, later initiative against boon)

scum: anatole (avoidance boon -> swag, "soft defense" ridiculising)

post of mine:
"I'm not quite sure where this illusion comes from that scum would want to powermislynch flubber day one. He's getting himself lynched if you do nothing. I'd know what I would do as scum. Hop on when the time has come, let the townies lead the mislynch."

Next post is a votecount:

Flubbernugget (5) - Copper223, mykonian, Dessew, Anatole Kuragin, Natirasha

Guess what, you can debate about me all you want but the first three are town.

Nati hops off, stalls the flubber wagon there. I like nati for town for that.

End of the day, who's still on flubber? Boon's partner.

There are a couple other candidates for partners for boon, but anatole stands out to me.

vote anatole

[mykonian]

and seriously guys, after yesterday we are really not going to lynch flubber. He should probably have been in the town list above but as you can see I didn't actually keep track properly (because nati should be as well) of the neat statistics. Just wanted my thoughts saved when empking locked the game and I was still really into it.

[mykonian]

I don't think I'm repeating anything. I didn't post a word about you yesterday, apart from saying hi.

You are the only person staying away from boon awkwardly. The rest had much more natural interactions.

Also, after we lynched scum who's protecting someone too much, I think you can take the odds that he was protecting a townie and the defense looked too strong because the scum knew he was right. It's silly to lynch flubber. That is, even if you discard that on the moment that flubber sends off the deadline wagon, boon just has 3 votes, he himself on 2 and a couple of people sit on one. If they were scum together, he wouldn't take out his stronger partner. He can sit it out for free and doublecheck if we don't fuck up. Scum flubber has 0 incentive to become active at that point.

[mykonian]

good, you two are here. Could we have a discussion about my list of town players?

Fuduzn, Dessew, copper, swag, CT, nati and flubber. There's good reasons for all of them except copper and his play is simply natural enough around the boon wagon to not sound any alarms. That's a pretty sizable portion of the town and I'd like to get that out of the way today.

[mykonian]

I agree with the list sans Flubber and you can add yourself.

Even if you don't buy in why we lynched boon, could you have a quick look at where the boon lynch actually got locked in on the last day?

[mykonian]

I wanted to see how things played out but things are going quick.

I am a town roleblocker, there was no night kill. I blocked mykonian.

Discuss.

This one does not make sense to me.

There are two ways about this, massclaim or not. With a scum lynch day one, a guilty here, I think we should massclaim. It might pay to make sense out of this.

[mykonian]

urg, why am I talking to you.

we have 2 strong town powerroles with a guilty and a half and I know that fuduzn didn't stop a kill. Suppose we can make sense out of the game and fuduzn must have blocked the kill, you get the game, ezpz. But I don't trust what is going on here. I do trust fuduzn on my normal read, I'm not 100% sure about our cop anymore.

[mykonian]

ok, guys, 10 days. Lets get some work done. Massclaim today. Current theory I have is that it helps us.

[mykonian]

claims so far, fuduzn with RB, kafka with cop, swag with doctor. If we go with this, popcorn seems a decent option, kafka could start it off from my point of view. Later he could claim his result.

[mykonian]

You can find out when it's my turn. Lets figure out if everybody is on board, then you can pick me if you are impatient, or let someone else claim first.

[mykonian]

anatole knew that was the more sensible path.

[mykonian]

You are going to after the claims.

[mykonian]

Oh, it's going to look very pretty anyway. Even if I were fakeclaiming, coming out of the gates with a massclaim, I'd have an idea what I was going for

And yes, I think you are scum anatole. You are the best buddy for boon.

[mykonian]

an assertion that still has no grounding or evidence

don't even care. this game is practically over

for someone who doesn't care you post a lot about it.

Also, saying there's no evidence doesn't make it so

[mykonian]

your avi is so great with that statement.

[mykonian]

I can smell your claim anatole.

[mykonian]

doubt it.

[mykonian]

Eh, I guess I'll get my words in then.

I'm a doctor as well. Protected fuduzn first night, kafka second. Obviously blocked as per claims. What should make you curious about this game is that there's a claimed cop and a claimed doc who both lived, now there's a claimed doc who didn't do a thing and there are still no kills and there's a rb up, while we have seen no power from scum in the first two roles. Kafka still has to claim, but that helps us check whether there's any scum RB.

Empking is no silly, this game went through the NRG, they aren't sending out cop-double doc-rolecop-RB-scum universal backup just for funsies. That means something is up.

Now, between me having a huge town list from boon's lynch, an overpowered town, multiple protections and a universal scum backup when there's a cop in: this game reeks of multiball (9:2:2), where scum has been unfortunate. There's simply too many claims and too few kills to think all the claims are fake, maybe just one, but you can figure that out.

You know where my money is for boons partner: that's anatole. What's left for you guys is to find Droog's. If you think that's me, fine. Shame about the perfect town win which we might have gotten here, but that's just about vanity, lets be honest.

Make me proud guys. I'm pretty sure I was right with my post yesterday about boon's partners, I didn't manage to get a lead on droogs.

[mykonian]

There's going to be a day where I make a play knowing that I'll be investigated. It wasn't this one. This time I'm just happy. That lynch was not going to be stopped in any other way.

Wait. I retract my claim now. I claimed doctor just to get mafia to kill me in the night in case the rb does not work out.
I am a normal vt.

This was my first thought given the way the claim went. Does not surprise me that it was a fake. Kind of was nice given that I had sort of given away I was a confused powerrole when fuduzn claimed.

Still leaves the question why there wasn't a kill. MS as a whole is seriously careful about putting a cop and a doc in one game, and we did not see scum power. There's the off chance that they blocked swag and tried to kill kafka and that failed because x? I mean, it's empking, he's an experienced mod and might not go with the standard "give scum a roleblocker", but seriously guys, this does not add up. Copper can talk how it is balanced till the end of time, that's not a setup that sees play. Even if he puts in 4 scum, this is ms, they give scum a way to deal with cop-doc, and the GF has been in disfavour lately (is it even a normal role still?)

[mykonian]

yup, still is. Just controversial in MD, I guess.

[mykonian]

who still have to claim. Do it.

[mykonian]

Not claimed: Flubbernugget, Natirasha, Anatole Kuragin, Dessew

claimed: FuDuzn, Goblin, Whatisswag, mykonian, comradekafka, reinoe, Copper223

Want to take a guess at who the scum are in the not claimed department?

[mykonian]

nah, people seem more than happy to push through a result based on a roleblock over a result based on a cop. I don't think they want to NL, they've already discarded the cop result as being insignificant.

This could become interesting.

[mykonian]

know what really would be interesting. If suddenly tomorrow after a NL, kafka is dead, and fuduzn claims to not have blocked me. Wouldn't that be curious.

[mykonian]

not up for that plan.

[mykonian]

Because I really don't feel like protecting a rolecop with no previous results in a game that seems to have too many roles already. Kafka has proven himself.


Dessew, nati, anatole and flubber still need to claim.

[mykonian]

hmm, I don't think I agree with that if kafka in the same time lives and gets another result in. Suppose I'm a scum gf, I can't win. I'm not making lylo, lets get that straight here. If there's something else going on (and really, there is, just a gf and a universal backup on scum's side would not deal with cop doc rb rolecop, empking is not a silly), kafka is a problem scum has to deal with and they are on a clock.

But as per above, I'd be surprised if goblin died. So eh, sure, I guess?

[mykonian]

Explain the purpose of a scum universal back-up when there's a cop? Actually, I invite that question to anyone. What possible purpose could there be unless this game is designed badly.

eh, there's a tiny little sentence in the post where I claim that alludes to that but frankly I don't think that makes much sense either. Like, cop and doc make some sense in multiball as scumroles, but then, to balance that, you'd probably need another backup on the other team, nothing curves like that. IDK, otherwise you always leave something to complain about from either scumteam. "But they got that it's not fair".

Seriously, am I the only one using logical thinking here?

Looks like it. If I'm the last remaining scum, then you win regardless. What you do next is cover the cases where lynching me doesn't win, because suddenly you are a doc down You'd be a lot better off then with me, in stead of without me.

Why are you so invested in this lynch, dear.

How is lynching Myko logical, when I just gave you a plan that stochastically dominates it, I fail to see.

Lynch Myko vs NL:

- Myko is scum -> same outcome.

- Myko is doc -> clearly better to NL.

NL would be very useful for werewolves/cult?

it's a normal, there are no cults. If there are werewolves, they haven't killed yet.

[mykonian]

the way fuduzns play as of now makes sense if he's scum, is if he no killed as a gambit. That does qualify as "there's something awfully wrong this game so far", but it's rather out there. Also, he powerbussed boon then. It's two really forcefull moves for just one mislynch, seems awkward. If he's on a different scumteam than boon and that theory is correct, that still doesn't explain why there were no kills.

[mykonian]

Myko, you still haven't explained how I can block you two nights in a row and their have been no nightkills.

You said there may be multiball, do you really think that the mod gave no no night kill ability to two scum factions? Or even simpler, do you really think the single scum faction has no night kill ability?

See? Makes no sense, logical fallacy's equal you the last scum.

Pre edit: Than check me then, and no I did not say there is no chance that Myko isn't scum.......just that with everything that has transpired that it is logically super unlikely.

And you have played with people who have claimed scum as town? Really?

Pre edit 2: This is the desperation from Myko I was talking about......logical fallacy's.

If I knew why there were no kills, I'd tell you.

Your logic is just as bad, just the sad thing is that proving it requires you to lynch me.

Regardless, the logic continuation is as copper explains. If I'm the only scum, this a won game. If I'm not, you are currently hardcore arguing for a mislynch just because you targeted someone twice with your ability without scumhunting during it. As in, why the hell are anatole and nati not here, why aren't they claiming.

[mykonian]

Or just lynch nati, anatole, fuduzn for the win. Probably in that order.

Enjoy your game guys.