Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[borkjerfkin]

Considering the only thing Newbie is being townread for is thinking Wisdom is a mason - this isn't any less 'fakeable' if you get into the mindset that someone may have been trying to earn towncred there.

I'm just not sure that was the mindset Newbie was in at the time, and the same can be said for why I'm townreading BMWS for what he said to Mala when he did.

[borkjerfkin]

In that regard, you and Mathdino become more attractive lynches than BMWS/Newbie.

That being said, someone killed not_mafia (a slot that had pretty much done nothing) and Mala (a slot that had posted nothing substantive since D1) over me (someone who has been continually engaged since my replace in).

That is likely not an accident and could actually point to one of BMWS/Newbie scum (the two slots I have defended the hardest).

[borkjerfkin]

Forgot to ask: have you played with Cheetory before?

[acryon]

Here is what I have on Newbie:

Day 1
-Claimed Newbie was suspicious of VDA in 137, but that his responses satisfied Newbie
-In 48, wgeurts unvoted and Newbie called him out for it. Then in 307, Newbie questions Wisdom for calling out wgeurts second unvote and turn-around, and this time Wisdom was scummy for calling it out? Newbie votes him here, making the 4th vote on the wagon, along with Finn who mentioned he thought Wisdom was scummy.
-In 389, Newbie says “Also, I assure you, if Wisdom does in fact flip mafia, then I'm not bussing him. I find it odd that you said that. It kind of puts me in a damned if you do, damned if you don't type of situation (if Wisdom flips town then I'm highly suspected as a mafia member pushing a town lynch, if Wisdom flips scum then I'm highly suspected for bussing him)”. Now this post is the killer for me. I can’t see this statement coming from anything but town or newb-scum, and I’m not sure that I’m ready to accept the latter.
-In 681, this could very easily be town genuinely surprised at the realization that Wisdom may be a mason or scum pushing the perceived, but not explicitly stated notion that Wisdom is a mason.
-I am actually quite skeptical of the way Newbie jumped onto the Victor wagon. He was mentioned in 137 by Newbie saying that his responses were satisfying. The next time he was mentioned by Newbie was 702, where his questioning of Mathdino is noted as being odd, but making good points, followed by a question to VDA on why it took so long to answer people’s questions on Wgeurts. In 825, once VDA is at L-3, Newbie expresses a willingness to lynch either VDA or Riddleton, and then votes Victor in 829. 897 shows Newbie driving the nail in on the VDA wagon. I would be wary of calling this genuine given the lynch was all but certain at that point.
-Mala seemed to express that she thought Newbie was scum with Victor, presumable due to the above progression.

Day 2
-Starts out of the gate with a vote on Wisdom. What I find especially interesting is that it is coupled with another comment about how ridiculous the bussing accusations are.
-In 1023 Newbie says the hammer from Mala seemed more like bussing than what Newbie did, which is (1) ridiculous, and (2) quickly ignored in 1028 just because Newbie agrees with the Wisdom vote.
-The interaction with Wisdom in 1147 honestly reads like TvS, but the concession in 1150 does the opposite, unvoting Wisdom and moving to hear from me.
-In 1267 the vote comes back on Wisdom, and I asked in 1268 about what in my posts made her put it back because Newbie initially removed it to hear from me. The answer was that “Straightforwardly, [Newbie] like[d] this post.” In my post, I asserted that Wisdom was most likely misguided town and that the Mala/Wisdom fight was almost definitely TvT. If Newbie liked the post, then why would the vote move back to Wisdom based on that conclusion of mine? Then, after wguerts posts, the vote is removed once again.
-Eventually it comes back in 1605 from what seems like a semi-natural progression.

I’m honestly quite torn on Newbie. The interaction with VDA I would say looking back was lean-scum, and the interaction with Wisdom is just incredibly hard to read because it is so back and forth. I think those town-reading Newbie for the mason-Wisdom thing are kind of crazy. I think the 389 post seems to be far more indicative of town than the mason-thing. I agree that it is a difficult sell to say that Newbie appeared to be in the mindset of faking the interaction with Wisdom re: masons, but at the same time, it's not impossible. I think overall that interaction does give Newbie some town-points, but certainly not enough for exoneration.

[acryon]

Forgot to ask: have you played with Cheetory before?

I played with Cheetory one time and he was quick-hammered on page 4 of the game before I even got a chance to read it, so I basically haven't played with him.

[blindmewithscience]

Whoops, fell asleep while looking through acryon's ISO
I'm a bit busy ATM, but got through about 2/3 of it all. I'll just point out a few things right now, and try to make a larger post later.
556: IF he were scum, then it would be really weird for him to directly point out his two scumbuddies, especially at this point in the game. For me, this leans him null-town.
560: Says that scum-Wisdom leading the wgeurts lynch is highly unlikely. I semi-agreed with this at the time, though it obviosuly turned out to be incorrect. This brings him back to null.
1221: Thinks Wisdom is misguided town, Constantine is scum, but with valid reasons (and both ended up incorrect).
I'll try to post something more substantial later.

Responding to 1840:
I think you're arguing that I'm scum for sitting back with my posts, buddying up with both scum and some things that Wis & VDA said in reference to me.
1. I really think that that's a kind of personality thing for me, sitting back on things and not really making black and white opinions. I'm not exactly an "aggressive" guy.
For the second, I'm going to point to what you said about my 310 and 325: Was it wrong for me to comment on the

main topic

at the time? And VDA and Wisdom weren't the only people talking about those wagons, or on these wagons IIRC. Basically everyone in the game was discussing that. I don't see this as buddying.
3. Eh, can't really make any comment about this. They said what they said about me, but we can never completely know their intent.
I'll try to comment some more on acryon's posts later.

[acryon]

Whoops, fell asleep while looking through acryon's ISO

I'm not

that

boring

[Newbie]

BWMS

He votes wgeurts here but adds "only so that he can create a good defense to Mathdino." The way it's worded is really weird, as if he knows that wgeurts is town and is just looking for an easy avenue to back out of wgeurts' lynch or an easy avenue to stay on it.

Next, he decides to jump on and hound SilverWolf (this is before Riddleton replaced her) along with Mathdino, Wisdom, Acryon, and VD (which is funny because all three mafia are amongst the five ) for her over emotional response to Mathdino's questioning. Mathdino even calls attention to his buddying.

His next vote is on Constantine. Constantine was a pretty easy target at the time because of his obnoxious behavior. Also note that Constantine was one of the alternate lynches to VD.

He mentions not finding Wisdom scum. He also makes a show of getting on Constantine's case and asks him what exactly makes Wisdom town when he never explained why he himself doesn't think Wisdom isn't scum. Still doesn't vote for Wisdom ever after this post.

All in all, I think he jumped on easy town lynches while avoiding Wisdom's and VD's.

Vote: blindmewithscience

[borkjerfkin]

hmm.

[Mathdino]

The BMWS wagon is making me really uncomfortable. I've got some games to look at and I'll come back and read this in more depth.

[Mathdino]

If I have one problem with Mathdino is that he pushed town literally all game until my Wisdom thing.

The problem here is we're literally left with Newbie, and the 3 people who were pretty much pushing Wisdom-sponsored lynches. This applies to all of us.

[Mathdino]

but to me it was ultimately a null/lean scum-motivation.

You think that particular interaction with Mala leans scum? Why

It's not that I necessarily think it leans scum on its own or very strongly. More-so that I think it more leans-scum to me than leans-town if that makes sense. I think it is mostly a null, but if the choices are between: (A) Town genuinely annoyed/curious about why the quickhammer and (B) Scum using twilight to feign townie frustration, then in the case of BMWS, I choose (B).

To expound on that, the only way I really see that being scummy from BMWS is if he were scum trying to fake that exact interaction so that I'd townread him for it.

Which is something he would have no idea I'd do at that point.

The alternative is that he was actually really worried about Mala after that hammer, which did not involve hedging on Vic's alignment. That makes this more about Mala than Vic, and the only reason that would be the case was him trying to figure Mala out.

So it doesn't look like bmws was genuinely trying to read mala there?

See, it's that section that really solidified BMWS-town for me. And no, I don't think he was trying to read Mala. Like I said D1, I know BMWS personally, and that is literally exactly how I'd have expected him to react to a situation like that. A "WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT" type thing, just hoping that the answer was a good one. I just don't know if that's something he'd try to do for towncred.

Mathdino in particular has been getting almost no pressure from anyone due to how townleader-y he's been the whole game. You just wrote him off as well - just wondering where your head is there.

He did a similar thing to Newbie (even going so far as to suggest voting Newbie is a scumclaim). That seems like a really silly thing to say.

I said it was that or someone could write up a bunch of reasons it's not Newbie, or reasons it could still be. The fact of the matter is, the setup stuff that happened in the past few days almost completely clears her.
If this comes down to LyLo and you die, bork, then it's going to be between 2 of {me, acryon, BMWS} and Newbie. That's not going to be pretty if we still have paranoia about her slot.

[Newbie]

Here is what I have on Newbie:
If Newbie liked the post, then why would the vote move back to Wisdom based on that conclusion of mine? Then, after wguerts posts, the vote is removed once again.

Just because I didn't agree with some things in the post doesn't mean I didn't like it.

[Mathdino]

In that regard, you and Mathdino become more attractive lynches than BMWS/Newbie.

That being said, someone killed not_mafia (a slot that had pretty much done nothing) and Mala (a slot that had posted nothing substantive since D1) over me (someone who has been continually engaged since my replace in).

That is likely not an accident and could actually point to one of BMWS/Newbie scum (the two slots I have defended the hardest).

That's what's making me a little iffy about acryon being scum. Based on your reads, you could've been predicted to go after him immediately, and it'd be game over for him.
I'm going to have to look over Newbie myself then.

[Mathdino]

But at the same time, look at BMWS right now. He literally says he'd be more willing to vote acryon over me, and then he writes a case where everything leans null-town. Wouldn't optimal play here be to get me and bork to jump on acryon, enter tomorrow and try to survive LyLo?

Really do have to look over Newbie again.

[Mathdino]

Newbie,

why are you not voting me? Your reasoning for voting BMWS would make me think you'd be more willing to vote me on those points.

[Newbie]

Newbie,

why are you not voting me? Your reasoning for voting BMWS would make me think you'd be more willing to vote me on those points.

Huh? Because I think you're town. In terms of being scum: bmws and acryon>>>>you. Plus, you've played differently from bmws, so I wouldn't vote you on those points. Like it was said, if you're not town then GG.

[Mathdino]

He votes wgeurts

here but adds "only so that he can create a good defense to Mathdino." The way it's worded is really weird, as if he knows that wgeurts is town and is just looking for an easy avenue to back out of wgeurts' lynch or an easy avenue to stay on it.

Next,

he decides to jump on and hound SilverWolf

(this is before Riddleton replaced her) along with Mathdino, Wisdom, Acryon, and VD (

which is funny because all three mafia are amongst the five

) for her over emotional response to Mathdino's questioning. Mathdino even calls attention to his buddying.

His next vote is on Constantine

. Constantine was a pretty easy target at the time because of his obnoxious behavior. Also note that Constantine was one of the alternate lynches to VD.

He mentions not finding Wisdom scum

. He also makes a show of getting on Constantine's case and asks him what exactly makes Wisdom town when he never explained why he himself doesn't think Wisdom isn't scum. Still doesn't vote for Wisdom ever after this post.

All in all, I think he jumped on easy town lynches while avoiding Wisdom's and VD's

.

Vote: blindmewithscience

You've gotta be kidding me, Newbie. I bolded things that BMWS has done that are exactly what I've done.

You need to explain what makes my play and BMWS's play different, because I'm seriously getting the idea that you're hopping on an easier lynch.

[Newbie]

You've gotta be kidding me, Newbie. I bolded things that BMWS has done that are exactly what I've done.

You need to explain what makes my play and BMWS's play different, because I'm seriously getting the idea that you're hopping on an easier lynch.

Because you've been way more extremely townish than bmws. Point blank.

[Newbie]

I really don't understand how you can't see it.

[Mathdino]

Newbie, I can see it because from my standpoint I've been more townish than BMWS from the moment I got my PM.
That's not what I'm trying to establish.

I'm trying to see what it is that sets BMWS apart from me in your eyes. Because at the end of the day, you're scumreading BMWS for doing

exactly

what I've done and you need to expand on that a bit. Does my townishness outweigh the fact that I've done those things, or is doing those things just not scummy for me?

Basically what I'm saying is "Try again" when it comes to that BMWS case.

[borkjerfkin]

This is a really weird line of questioning.

[Mathdino]

bork, Newbie's case sucks, I'll just leave it at that. acryon's is alright, but Newbie is making me think she's going after BMWS solely because he's an easier lynch target.

So yeah, I'm going to ask why she's townreading me, because based on her BMWS case, she shouldn't be.

[Newbie]

Newbie, I can see it because from my standpoint I've been more townish than BMWS from the moment I got my PM.
That's not what I'm trying to establish.

I'm trying to see what it is that sets BMWS apart from me in your eyes

. Because at the end of the day, you're scumreading BMWS for doing

exactly

what I've done and you need to expand on that a bit. Does my townishness outweigh the fact that I've done those things, or is doing those things just not scummy for me?

Basically what I'm saying is "Try again" when it comes to that BMWS case.

You've done

way

more townish things than BMWS. I don't think that you jumped on easy lynches, just that you were a misguided townie. That's the difference. Why would I vote the one that seems extremely town?

And lol, no. I'm not dropping my bmws case. It's either him or Acryon, so if it aint him, it's Acryon.

Like it was said, if you're not town, then GG.

[Mathdino]

So just to be clear, you find my jumping on bad lynches outweighed by the more townish things I've done? Because your post also doesn't illustrate why BMWS is jumping on easy lynches and I'm just misguided.