Mini 1628: Rick Santorum Saves Xmas - Gaybepocalypse

[T S O]

I disagree with my lynch, for starters, because I can see no reason for it. That,

and I know I'm town,

but you are literally voting me for nothing.

^that was the only time I mentioned the self-alignment-knowledge. once.

tsq you can stop pretending that "I know I'm town" is the crux of my annoyance any time now. because it's not, at all, and your attempts to make it seem so are weak.

[T S O]

I'll catch up tomorrow and post things other than TSQ-abuse.

[Shinobi]

Answer the question. You made a play that only makes sense from the perspective of shitty town or scum. Which one are you?

Neither answer gives you insight that helps you determine my alignment.

The fact that you're pushing for a lynch/shot on me based on the fact that I won't answer it is scummy.

Question circumvented. Suck it, nerd.

[T S O]

okay shinobi can be town

[Mathdino]

Right, okay, so I figured out what it was.

VOTE: Bert

Are we still rvsing? Well I am.

Guys, wisdom is obv town. Based off of his interaction with me re: the flip alignment. There is no way that wasn't genuine.

In other news,

serious VOTE: Shinobi

There is a whole FUCK ton of shit that has happened. Those who attempt to keep the game in a random state after there is plenty of information to begin actually playing a serious game are either lazy people playing town like shit or savvy scum trying to deny town information as long as possible.

Which one are you?

There is no such thing as a scum tell.

I talked about late RVSing not being a scumtell in response to TSQ implying it was, since he was basically suspecting based on a scumtell but presenting it as a read in context. Doesn't quite match up, his Shinobi suspicion still seems unfounded IMO.

can we not lynch me day 1
like at least after the next elephant phase

Why the hell should we wait for the next elephant phase?

Like what does that have to do with anything?

This is a suspicious post

This was a singular post that isn't followed up on nor is it preceded by anything else on Marquis. Statements not matching stated reads, seems like you're going with the general flow of Marquis suspicion but not backing it up with much.

[Thestatusquo]

like specifically, how does my

a) forcibly attempting to not allow people to hide in randomness longer than necessary.
b) attempting to figure out the setup wrt scum kills
c) pointing out that the orange was likely third party and not scum
d) attacking the high momentum wagon on wisdom when I didn't have to say anything at all about it

make sense from a scum perspective?

Note, d would probably make sense if wisdom were my buddy. Day one, however, coming out against that sort of wagon when I didn't even have to say a damn thing about it serves very little conceivable scum purpose.

@fuzz: No I didn't? There's nothing wrong with pointing out that you're town. What I attacked TSO for is completely different from that. Go back and reread my post. I SPECIFICALLY use the language "I know I am town argument." That language is not accidental. My argument is not "TSO SAID HE IS TOWN OMG" my argument is "TSO is making an argument that relies on him being town and FURTHERMORE relies on us and the people attacking him knowing he is town. Not only is that bullshit, but he KNOWS its bullshit, and he's using it BOTH to deflect a legitimate attack on him as well as make an attack against someone else."

Do you really think my point was as unnuanced as "herp derp he said hes town herp derp?"

Come on dude.

[Thestatusquo]

Math the only thing that matters in mafia is motivation behind post. My contention that there is no such thing as a scumtell is not new. I've pretty much been making this argument on this site for like 4 years now. YOU HAVE BEEN IN SITE CHAT WHEN I WAS MAKING THE SAME ARGUMENT. Was I scum there to?

The only thing that matters in mafia in this advanced of a meta is "what does the balance of probability with regards to alignment motivations say."

[Mathdino]

a. Because you're presenting it as suspicion rather than pressure or policy, which is essentially what it is. Either FuD or TSO stated it well when he said insincerity doesn't ring town.
b. Can be faked, I pull setup spec as scum.
c. Colours were in the role PMs, this doesn't really mean much.
d. Not like he was in serious danger of being lynched even at L-2. I can't really dole out townpoints for this sort of thing.

e (because adding an e). You're trying to prove yourself town with things I wasn't even talking about. Don't like that, and the very fact that you're bringing them up nullifies any towncred you would've gotten from them.

Edit: Naturally, naturally. I agree there is no such thing as a scum tell, I never fought this idea. My issue is when you suspect Shinobi for RVSing too late, that's basically saying "Late RVSing is a scumtell". I don't see Shinobi's RVS vote as inconsistent with town at all.

[Thestatusquo]

re: marquis I am wishy washy on how I feel about him. How is that inconsistent with anything I've said or done? Like, its not like having a wishy washy interaction with one person is unreasonable like barely into d1. Especially considering that the rest of my interaction has been anything BUT wishy washy.

[Mathdino]

Right, but you haven't talked about Marquis in any other context than pointing out one post that wasn't really suspicious in the first place (in my opinion). Again, it feels like you're going with the flow of Marquis suspicion without really participating in the discussion.

[Mathdino]

TSQ, as scum, would you

avoid

doing the things that you pointed out make you town? Because if so, that doesn't speak well about the quality of your scum game. Scum MUST do things that seem town motivated.

[Thestatusquo]

a) Math I can provide you like 4 town games where I've made the exact same argument. I even wrote an article about this.
(http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13710) come on dude. COME ON.

b) Can be faked is obviously a possibility. I was asking you if you really think its what's most likely. Do you think I'm really faking setup spec in order to bring it up when someone attacks me on gut later on? Again, check my meta. I'm not sure but I think you'll find I never do this.

c) What is the scum motivation for pointing it out?

d) I'M NOT ASKING FOR TOWN POINTS. I'm saying "is this action more likely to come from town or scum" if you say scum than you're an idiot, straight up.

Stop with the confirmation bias, pls.

Motivations are pure. You look to who the play helps in order to determine what it is more likely to be the alignment of the person doing it. You can "fake this" sure, but its hard because if you play against your win condition enough you lose the game.

[Thestatusquo]

You're accusing me of being "not genuine" on something I've literally been the champion on since before 90% of this game even knew what mafia was...

[Thestatusquo]

Answer the question. You made a play that only makes sense from the perspective of shitty town or scum. Which one are you?

Neither answer gives you insight that helps you determine my alignment.

The fact that you're pushing for a lynch/shot on me based on the fact that I won't answer it is scummy.

Question circumvented. Suck it, nerd.

Ok, so going with scum then.

Please kill this slot.

[Thestatusquo]

re: marquis you're attacking me for literally finding one post he made scummy and pointing it out? Isn't that just... how you interact with people when they say something noteworthy? I haven't found much else he's done to be noteworthy

[Mathdino]

a) Math I can provide you like 4 town games where I've made the exact same argument. I even wrote an article about this.
(http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13710) come on dude. COME ON.

b) Can be faked is obviously a possibility. I was asking you if you really think its what's most likely. Do you think I'm really faking setup spec in order to bring it up when someone attacks me on gut later on? Again, check my meta. I'm not sure but I think you'll find I never do this.

c) What is the scum motivation for pointing it out?

d) I'M NOT ASKING FOR TOWN POINTS. I'm saying "is this action more likely to come from town or scum" if you say scum than you're an idiot, straight up.

Stop with the confirmation bias, pls.

Motivations are pure. You look to who the play helps in order to determine what it is more likely to be the alignment of the person doing it. You can "fake this" sure, but its hard because if you play against your win condition enough you lose the game.

a. towncred, b. towncred, c. towncred (and also not really a novel finding), d. towncred.
Note that if I were straight up scumreading you, I'd be voting you or voting for Bert to shoot you. All of this is from me contesting the notion that you're "town as fuck" and supporting the fact that I haven't gotten any townvibes from you so far, which I found odd given your level of activity. Your actions haven't been inconsistent with either alignment, so right now my read is a frustrated null.

[Mathdino]

I do not agree with shooting marquis, as Aronis said it seems just like trolling and is not alignment indicative. I honestly would not mind shooting TWO or TSQ(damn those abbreviations are too similar). TSQ is just purely a gut read though.

Also wisdom, give me some credit. Your town play is fresh in my head but I think I could figure out your scum play.

I actually agree with FuD, I'm not getting townvibes from TSQ this game.

On a sidenote, I still don't see much worth voting in Shinobi.

Hum, I actually did confbias one thing, and that's that I thought FuD was thinking the same thing I am. Thought he was saying TSQ wasn't a townread since TSQ responded saying he was town as fuck.

[Thestatusquo]

frustrated null is different from a scumread.

[Mathdino]

frustrated null is different from a scumread.

Can confirm, haven't been scumreading you outside of light gut.

[Thestatusquo]

k.

Why don't you want to vote shinobi?

What do you think about TSO?

Who are your top 3 townreads?

[Shinobi]

Answer the question. You made a play that only makes sense from the perspective of shitty town or scum. Which one are you?

Neither answer gives you insight that helps you determine my alignment.

The fact that you're pushing for a lynch/shot on me based on the fact that I won't answer it is scummy.

Question circumvented. Suck it, nerd.

Ok, so going with scum then.

Please kill this slot.

There's no way for you to draw an accurate conclusion from that question.

There's no way for you to draw an accurate conclusion from me ignoring that question.

Anybody with eyeballs can see that your push is bad. For you to think I'm mafia based on this logic, you have to actually

be

mafia.

Are you mafia, TSQ?

[Mathdino]

1. No reason, I have scumreads, I have no need to start off the day with policy votes.

2. Leaning slightly scum. Seems overly defencive and has mostly talked about himself so far.

3. Wisdom, FuDuzn, and Konowa.
Wisdom for appearing genuine, engaged, and helpful (although I really have to keep an eye on him because he managed to get me to buddy him hard for 2 days when he was scum).
FuDuzn for having what seems to be a natural thought process.
Konowa for a combination of the above.

Bert and Aronis lean a bit town, not really much reasoning behind that except viiiiibes man. Everyone else needs to post more (Flames and CP1116).

[Thestatusquo]

1) it's not a policy vote. There is no town motivation to ignore relevant game information in order to keep the day "random." None. Zip. Zilch. I'm not voting him because I think the action is bad I'm voting him because I think the action is way more likely to come from scum than town. Not only is this just intuitively true, but I've sen this to be the case many many times. Further, I'm interested in how you view his reactions, because frankly they don't seem town to me either. Second part of this is fine. It makes sense to go with your reads over mine, but I object to you dismissing the attack as policy.

2) Do you think scum are more likely to be defensive than town? I haven't observed this to be true. I think TSO is town, probably.

3) I like this list.

Overall I quite like post 321.

[Thestatusquo]

@shinobi: Not this game, unfortunately.

[Thestatusquo]

For you to think I'm mafia based on this logic, you have to actually be mafia.

Please explain this. My nerd brain is too busy "sucking it" to understand what you mean by this.