Micro 444 molliegeddon [OVER]

[Varsoon]

Like, regardless of your align, TSO, you want to read me as scum (or at least that's how it feels to me), so appealing to you and playing to your tune and shit is a waste of effort. I'd rather focus my energy and posts into actual scum-hunting and shit.

That said, I've thought it over and given mods' reply, Kaboose lynch is best lynch unless we want to face shit down the road.
VOTE: Kaboose

[Varsoon]

That took me fucking 20 minutes, man.
That's 20 minutes of spending time justifying myself to your ass.
I don't -need- to do that. That doesn't forward gamestate at all. Sure, maybe you'll read me as town for it, but I don't give a fuck what you read me as so long as the lynches hit scum.

[Varsoon]

TSO, I figure you're likely third-level town trying to trick second-level scum with that strat, but Occam's Razor would beg to differ and your play-by-play is very first level oriented, so I've got to figure you can't be more than second-level with that means of engagement.

[T S O]

I like your reads post, actually!

But, and this is truly killing me to say this - as of now the post is nearly worthless. But - but! - all you have to do to give it worth is supplement each point with two quotes from DL's ISO. That's 3 mins work. You can do it, my boy.

[Varsoon]

Uggggghghhhh
It'll take all this time and effort and the stuff -is- there.
Why can't -you- dig his ISO and be like, "Oh, Varsoon isn't full of shit, huh."
Why do I have to do it?
Humrph.
I'll be back with stupid links for dumb things that don't matter. Kaboose lynch is today's best lynch anyway (outside of 100% scum lynch).

[Lying Cat]

That is exactly the wrong state of mind to be in, Varsoon. Town wins if they can correctly identify each other, and explaining reads is an important part of that. Thank you for humoring T.

T, I'm doubting my read on ETL. Not because of the ATE, because yeah, she get's mad as both alignments (She is genuinely mad though. I can tell because I called her Titus ) But a couple of different things that don't add up to her scum.

1. Sthar8 told me last night that her play, both what he read and what I described to him, reminds him of Chosen. Where he was super wrong about her being scum. (If you could look at that with an unbiased eye, I'd be grateful.)
2. ETL claiming a confirmable D2 role doesn't make sense when she's not getting lynched today. Like, there is no sequence of events short of a N0 cop result or a scumclaim that is gonna make me stop pushing correct play, and correct play is to lynch Kaboose. (More on that in a moment.)
3. This behavior looks to me like ETL's trying to pull a nightkill. It won't happen, because if she's town scum is more than happy letting me (and probably TSO) clutter the thread with our tunnel.

The ONE big hesitation right now on reevaluating is that I don't believe ETL's assertion that she trusts mastin more now. I think that is a bold-faced lie. I'm not gonna explain that any further.

Kaboose, despite being probably town, should be the lynch today. In order to demonstrate this, I'll build some hypotheticals.

Best Case Scenario

We lynch scum today. We head into tomorrow with 6v1, which is a really good position, especially if scum doesn't kill a relevant PR. This is easily the best situation, and the one ETL is trying to reach, but it's unlikely, and it still puts us right into the mode of Kaboose getting lynched the day after tomorrow.

Kaboose Lynch[/area

We go into tomorrow with a flipped Kaboose and one other town, then we have a day 1 with whatever investigations went off and two dayphases worth of scumhunting. Scum make their kill with minimal information, and we make our lynch with as much informations. Strictly by a numbers game, we're more likely to hit scum tomorrow, and adding in the added Night actions and the added scumhunting is just a bonus.

Not quite the worst

We lynch town today. Scum have a prepared mislynch that takes 0 arguing on their part to push through, and we have a dead day that has no real benefits. We shoot right into LYLO on the back of 1 mislynch, and scum virtually have 2 consecutive nightkills. We have no chance to claim or evaluate claims before LYLO.

The Worst Case Scenario[/area

We lynch town today. Either a vig or an SK kills someone who is not kaboose. We enter MYLO. Alternatively, some other role, like, say DGB's means we can't lynch kaboose. Or someone (probably scum) fakes a guilty. If we don't lynch kaboose today, we have the capacity to autolose. That is not acceptable to me.

Given that post, and my previous theory post. Anyone who doesn't want to lynch kaboose today needs to justify their position.

I'm inclined to ask DGB to gladiate kaboose today, then prove she really is a gladiator, then lynch him. Mostly because Gladiator is an awful role and entirely negative town utility.

~Jingle

[Lying Cat]

Also, ETL, if your only reason for not following the plan is that you think I'm scum, BOTH T and Mastin can support that I've come up with optimal strategies for town as scum for towncred.

Just trust me on this being the best move today.

[Varsoon]

In the end, it becomes a waste of time for me to play to your tune, but, y'know, fuck it. Here goes:

-Engaged

DL is actively interacting with other players and his reads seem to be an organic response to both how other people have responded to him and how they've treated the game. He asks questions, he makes plays, and he is willing to wall up against your ass. That's called engagement. It's not necessarily town and can be very null, but in this case I don't see anything that rings as false or forced.

-Votes follow logical progression

Explained in part above. His first vote/suggested vote on Kaboose is town-oriented given Kaboose's claim and ask for votes. His Konowa vote comes from Konowa playing questionable and vague-like and the hesitance to vote there because of his read on LC rings true to me. The vote on you comes out of what seems to be a mixture of general frustration as well as you poorly handling your responses to him, insulting him, and misappropriating what he's written. ISO LINKS: 120 for Kaboose vote, gets further explained in 209 for why he moves past it. Konowa vote is in 407 and grows out of 315. Vote on LC, which I didn't talk about is also informed by interactions like those around 201 and 340. Vote on you makes sense given your own back-and-forth, especially around 554.

-Hydra interaction rings town

He was very straightforward about the ETL half being more engaged and the other side being kinda meh. If I rolled scum, I'd be excited as fuck as both ends of the hydra. The general apologetic stance and clear investigative interest from ETL with Guyett weighing in from time to time (it seems) feels like two town players engaging on different levels and being straightforward about that rather than scum players in a hydra trying to confuse/disorient town while trying to seem town. It feels organic. It -rings- town. 315 and 200, and I swear there's one where he says Guyett doesn't feel to engaged but I can't find it and may be trippin and thinking of another hydra in this game

-I like the earlier reads list

DGB and Kaboose reads are spot-on and explained via claim. He didn't doubt-out the claims, and his 'buying' them feels truthful. His Flubber read didn't make sense to me originally but re:his conversation with me about how Flubber engages the game fits really well in regards to his town-Flubber read. 422 and 317, respectively It feels really sensible and, so, if Flubber is scum then he's either got DL fooled easily or they are partners that have good reasons for townreading the other. The Mastin read is weak, but the read on me feels quite explained and sensible. The honesty in his scum reads comes from both his interaction with those players as well as what was shared there. The fact he's willing to be dedicated to his town reads and kinda hesitant of his scum reads in places feels like town trying to sort shit out a lot more than scum being opportunistic, mostly because I can see the natural progression and trajectory informing those reads up to that point.

-Answered me when asked stuff

This shit is important. It means he's being game-aware rather than just advancing an agenda and tunneling on that.

-Actually was really town in his response wrt Flubber interaction (suggested helpful pro-town interaction rather than stirring up shit)

This is fucking self-evident. His explanation reads to me as town understanding Flubber's play, coming from a very sensible place wrt to earlier Flubber reads from him, and paints a whole picture of a townie trying to justify both his town read while giving thoughtful ways for others to see Flubber's play as town. He could have very well turned the tables and said I was scum for not understanding Flubber/pushing Flubber, but he did not. This shows that he's not quick to scumpaint people. That's town to me.

-Townshot on you, if faked, is exactly what I have done as town several times and I don't see scum motivation to fakedayvig there

The fact that

you (I think)

Lying Cat

tried to insist he does that as scum when he's done it as both aligns is fucked up. Also, the way it was played through was handled in a way to try to get you to commit to info. That's town. He wasn't trying to make you scramble or scumslip, imo.

-Townshot on you, if real, is town confirmation. :3

Mollie actually said she's been in more games with scum day-shots than town ones, so maybe I'm just meta-biased on this. Regardless, this is a non-point now.

Ugh-mc-gug, this is more than 3 minutes, I'm so blah done, fuck this, it's there, braah.

[Kaboose]

VOTE: Kaboose

[Varsoon]

That was twelve minutes! Four times three!
Most the posts I link there actually fit for the later stuff too, btw.

@Lying Cat: It bugs me a lot that you said Guyett pulls fake dayvig as -scum- rather than just saying fake dayvig as -any alignment-.
I guess I get that you guys have been butting heads for like the last ~14 pages of the game but it really seems like that was an attempt to get folks to side with you hardcore. I dunno. :/
I figure people can sort me out if I just play straightforward. I feel like having to justify stuff and 'cover tracks' is the sort of shit scum needs to do. All I need to do is find scum. I guess, in that case, I scumhunt rather than townhunt? Whatever, either way, I don't really like having to justify myself to people. I feel like, as town, my actions are justified because I am town, you know? Sure, other people can't see that, but no amount of typing up justification sets me apart from scum in their eyes, I feel. So it's wasteful.

[Flubbernugget]

VOTE: DL

Did not check VC. Here's hoping I derphammered

[Lying Cat]

That was twelve minutes! Four times three!
Most the posts I link there actually fit for the later stuff too, btw.

@Lying Cat: It bugs me a lot that you said Guyett pulls fake dayvig as -scum- rather than just saying fake dayvig as -any alignment-.
I guess I get that you guys have been butting heads for like the last ~14 pages of the game but it really seems like that was an attempt to get folks to side with you hardcore. I dunno. :/
I figure people can sort me out if I just play straightforward. I feel like having to justify stuff and 'cover tracks' is the sort of shit scum needs to do. All I need to do is find scum. I guess, in that case, I scumhunt rather than townhunt? Whatever, either way, I don't really like having to justify myself to people. I feel like, as town, my actions are justified because I am town, you know? Sure, other people can't see that, but no amount of typing up justification sets me apart from scum in their eyes, I feel. So it's wasteful.

Yes. Me pointing out that guyett pulls that shit as scum

too

despite it being almost completely useless after you said he was conftown for it was scummy.


Anyways, ETL, you get a stay of execution on the basis of you confirming yourself. Be aware that we will lynch the shit out of you for lying if you can't actually confirm yourself.

Also, Kaboose, if you haven't already confirmed Varsoon's question with Anti then you should do so. He may be able to answer it by PM, even if he can't answer through the thread.

And flubber, don't eat the paint chips. Also, you just leapfrogged two places on our scumlist.

~Jingle

[T S O]

Thank you for humoring T.

Can you explain how Varsoon was humouring me?

T, I'm doubting my read on ETL. Not because of the ATE, because yeah, she get's mad as both alignments (She is genuinely mad though. I can tell because I called her Titus ) But a couple of different things that don't add up to her scum.

1. Sthar8 told me last night that her play, both what he read and what I described to him, reminds him of Chosen. Where he was super wrong about her being scum. (If you could look at that with an unbiased eye, I'd be grateful.)

Sure.

2. ETL claiming a confirmable D2 role doesn't make sense when she's not getting lynched today. Like, there is no sequence of events short of a N0 cop result or a scumclaim that is gonna make me stop pushing correct play, and correct play is to lynch Kaboose. (More on that in a moment.)

But she didn't know that - to her, I was scumreading her, you were scumreading her, no-one else was... she was a real lynch option, at least in her own eyes.

But, I know softclaiming will get her a day of grace - all I'm saying is it better be fucking good.

3. This behavior looks to me like ETL's trying to pull a nightkill. It won't happen, because if she's town scum is more than happy letting me (and probably TSO) clutter the thread with our tunnel.

I heavily disagree.

[Lying Cat]

VOTE: kaboose

[T S O]

ebwop: no-one else was vocally townreading her except Varsoon.

[Varsoon]

Daymurder: AK

Die you scum fuck

Guyett, in an Antihero game that I HAVE ALREADY LINKED TO IN THIS GAME, faking a daykill as scum.

Varsoon, STFU.

This doesn't really seem to say "Guyett does it as scum, too" nearly as much as it's like, "Here's him doing it as scum. I linked this before. He does this as scum. Varsoon, shut the fuck up about faking dayvig's being a town thing."

But eh
Rhetoric!

[Lying Cat]

The actually answering your questions bit, T. I would honestly not be surprised to see him just not. I agree with you that the questions are useful, though, if that's what your concern is.

And we appear to be on the same page as ETL. Although Flubber is gross right now.

[Lying Cat]

Yeah, both Guy and ETL have a history of faking dayvigs. Like, holy shit, it means absolutely nothing and them doing it on a player like TSO is functionally retarded. It's like trusting sthar8's reaction to a fakehammer. And the rest of your list is laughable.

This kind of implies it being null, although I had thought I made that explicit.

[T S O]

The actually answering your questions bit, T. I would honestly not be surprised to see him just not. I agree with you that the questions are useful, though, if that's what your concern is.

That's cool. I thought you were saying the questions -weren't- useful, and I was all ready to be like "nigga these questions serve a purpose."

And we appear to be on the same page as ETL. Although Flubber is gross right now.

I haven't noticed much about Flubber - talk me through your problems?

[Varsoon]

T S O, you're a pretty cool guy, actual-factual.

[Drunken Lies]

HEY SO LIKE, CAN WE NOT LYNCH TOWN TODAY?

LC: "There's no chance of hitting scum, so lynching town is the best idea."

No. Fuck you.

[Drunken Lies]

This is ETL by the way. Still tired. Still hungry. Still pissed. Just letting you know that now before TSO comes in and tries to say my mood is somehow alignment indicative.

[Drunken Lies]

Like, if we can't figure shit out at deadline, fine, I'm on board with the Kaboose lynch, but not fucking now???

[Varsoon]

I think the idea was:
Lynching Kaboose gives us maximum use of our PRs.
Lynching Kaboose early denies scum info for their kill.
Lynching Kaboose keeps us from getting bent over as LYLO approaches.

[T S O]

T S O, you're a pretty cool guy, actual-factual.

I'd like to think so - and though I don't know you that well, you appear to be so too.

Me pushing you as scum here is entirely game-related, as with ETL.