Open 588 Pick Your Poison -- Game Over

[House]

croboss

Needs to die. Lets see what his replacement has to say.

What makes his posts scum play instead of bad town play?

[SIR CYANIDE]

croboss

Needs to die. Lets see what his replacement has to say.

What makes his posts scum play instead of bad town play?

What makes anyone's posts scum play instead of bad town play? Serious question.

[VictorDeAngelo]

croboss

Needs to die. Lets see what his replacement has to say.

What makes his posts scum play instead of bad town play?

What makes anyone's posts scum play instead of bad town play? Serious question.

Motivation. Scum will usually have an agenda with all their posts. Bad!town posts will look scummy but won't have any actual scum motivation behind them.

[House]

2 points to the Vic-meister.

[VictorDeAngelo]

It would seem intuitive that scum have a higher level of lurking than town, but I have no hard evidence for that. That said, without going into detail for fear of talking about other games, I completely agree with acryon here.
VOTE: cyanide

I have found that simply lurkiness equalling scum is a common misconception. Scum are perfectly capable of being active, just as town are capable of keeping their heads (in fact there are several reasons why a player could be town in two games, and yet active in one and lurky in another).

I do like that Riabi looked at Crosbos posting rather than take Dooku's word for it.

@Victor
When we are closer to deadline, and nobody else does scummier things.

I don't think town's benefit from holding off a lynch when they have a scummy player. And if you think he's obvscum, why exactly wait and see if someone scummier emerges? That doesn't really make sense.

Why? Even you said, that the deadline is far away: It would be a silly mistake to lynch somoene, even when he is obvscum, because we have two weeks, and maybe he can "clarify" himself, or someone claims scum, etc. You know what doesn't really make sense? These three sentences from you.

1

When did I say that you, Victor, said that he is a newbie, so he cannot be scum. I said town, generally. For example Drezi.

You brought it up in 426 so I commented on it. I don't think anyone actually said he couldn't be scum because he's a newbie, unless I missed something.

No, of course nobody said that he cannot be scum, because he is a newbie. But the only thing that Drezi could say why doesn't he think croboss is scum, was "yes, he made a bunch of scummy things, BUT since he is a newbie I am not willing to scumread him, because all these things can come from newbtown" So he is pretty much not scumreading him only because he is a newbie. (See

2

Seems sitewide? Did you take a look at his profile?

Yes. You should take a look too.

I took. And it was obvious that he was avoiding specifically this game. Now, I see that there are some rl stuff (because I took a look at him again, when I saw that he replaces out).

3

1

Just because we have a three week Day 1 (and seriously, why three week days, NS, a game this size should really be two week days at most IMO) doesn't mean we have to use every second. And lynching scum is never silly. If you really did think he was obvscum I would expect you to pushing the lynch hard, instead hoping he 'clarifies' himself or someone acts scummier out of nowhere. But that's pretty much what I said before, and other than saying that my points apparently didn't make sense you didn't really address it at all.

2

Drezi pretty much already explains before, there is a clear difference between what was said, and what your implying was said. No one is against scumreading Croboss because he's newbie; it simply the fact none of your points against actually point to him being scum. I really dislike the way you keep trying to make it out as though people are outright refusing to scumread him on principal, when it must be clear to you that is not what is going on.

3

I know I have to tread the line carefully here, but if anyone else has doubts about whether Croboss was specifically avoiding this game, I urge you to look at his profile and his posting in all games. In addition his replace should be a pretty big hint that Dooku is talking shit here.

[VictorDeAngelo]

My last defensive post was 469. And that isn't that defensive either. Riabi's vote is the most ridiculous thing that happened in this game so far.

I literally loled at this. How can Dooku be defensive when it's been 19 posts since his last defensive post.

[acryon]

Town: Lynch Count Dooku today, and if he flips town lynch me tomorrow because I've been campaigning hard for his lynch.

I hate when people say things like this. Town gains zero from this kind of statement. Just stand by your reads and let the town decide things for themselves tomorrow. Do these kind of ultimatums actually ever convince anyone to follow you anyway?

House

It's difficult to read someone who doesn't know what he's doing himself. Had a weak town read earlier but that swapped over to a weak scum read. Just posts a lot of weird shit, for example, 248 and 241 together in such quick succession is softclaiming IC to me which seems incredibly anti-town especially because there was no real immediate threat of him getting lynched. [post]503[/b] is also fucked up, everyone with half a brain and a little bit of mafia experience knows that you can't be that certain... now why would he put his own life on the line like that...? Yeah. He also thinks nearly everyone is suspicious, it's not really setting up a healthy town environment by FoSing everyone in the game and swapping votes around like crazy. Once again as stated at the beginning I'm pretty sure he's insane and I am approaching this in a sane manner, so I can't really read him scum. At first I thought he was drawing in the NK by softclaiming IC but his #503 is way too subtle for drawing in the NK.

If you thought he was softclaiming IC, why in the world would you point that out?

Motivation. Scum will usually have an agenda with all their posts. Bad!town posts will look scummy but won't have any actual scum motivation behind them.

This is the perfect summary of croboss up to this point IMO.

[Riabi]

Motivation. Scum will usually have an agenda with all their posts. Bad!town posts will look scummy but won't have any actual scum motivation behind them.

This is the perfect summary of croboss up to this point IMO.

Which is? Are you saying that croboss' posts had motivation?

[acryon]

Motivation. Scum will usually have an agenda with all their posts.

Bad!town posts will look scummy but won't have any actual scum motivation behind them.

This is the perfect summary of croboss up to this point IMO.

Which is? Are you saying that croboss' posts had motivation?

No, the second part of Victor's post in bold. I should have been more clear.

[SIR CYANIDE]

Contrary to a lot of people here I don't think scum needs to have (or will have) an agenda.

Also, I no longer believe he was soft-claiming IC. I did at first, which is why I did not point it out then.

[acryon]

Contrary to a lot of people here I don't think scum needs to have (or will have) an agenda.

I also don't think they necessarily need to. But if we are going to indict someone based on their posting alone, absent apparent scum agenda, then you need to have more than a few posts to back that up.

Also, I no longer believe he was soft-claiming IC. I did at first, which is why I did not point it out then.

What made you change your mind?

[SIR CYANIDE]

Contrary to a lot of people here I don't think scum needs to have (or will have) an agenda.

I also don't think they necessarily need to. But if we are going to indict someone based on their posting alone, absent apparent scum agenda, then you need to have more than a few posts to back that up.

Also, I no longer believe he was soft-claiming IC. I did at first, which is why I did not point it out then.

What made you change your mind?

I thought there was reasoning behind his posting at first but now it is apparent that he is clearly insane. If this set-up had a village idiot...

[pisskop]

I thought there was reasoning behind his posting at first but now it is apparent that he is clearly insane. If this set-up had a village idiot...

Hmmm. I don't quite agree. House isn't playing like I would ever consider, but its far from VI material. It certainly relies upon gambits and shallow pushes though.

. I haven't been on the site much in the past year. I went over to the wiki to skim through the theory articles when I did. Many of the more aggressive players contribute by offering their play tips as both townies and scummies. House seems to have combined both for whatever reason.

. Articles such as how to praise other players who post things that further your wincon (i.e. House praising Victor) or ignoring pushes on you that don't require addressing (my push on him. I didn't ask any questions so he ignored it).
. Unwillingness to address your own case when not actively pushing it (his case on me) sets up vague suspicion now that he can easily enough weasel out of should it not continue to be in his interest.
. While not specifically stated in the wiki, it is also roundaboutly implied that the one lines buff your post count while also allowing you to skim the null-line and interact. You can't say he isn't contributing, only that he isn't doing it well or in a towny way.

What I'm saying, is that he is not abrasive in the aggressive way, although he is passive-aggressive. His play is suspicious as a towny and that contributes to his meta as it helps him be mobile as scum.
. I think reading House is more about his motivations behind his posts, not what he says per se. I think he is slightly more town-motivated than scum-motivated, but that by no means makes him town. It's fairly subjective, after all.

---

Onto me.

I would argue that while I haven't contributed the most in terms of raw content, I've been here for several pivotal moments, and have displayed my stake in the game with decisive opinions. I was amoung the first to read Lal as town and publicly say so. I've stated my opinion that Dooku is town quite adamantly. And I've engaged enough with you and the whole 'setup discussion' to say I have my suspicions of the motivations behind everyone in it.
I can ask as many questions as I like, and until you start asking them back I will continue. It looks fairly pedantic to accuse me of asking too many questions when I'm simply following through with my statement here.

Although I admit that I did ask too many questions at once to too many lurkers in 301

[Count Dooku]

What is your issue with the timing?

I didn't like that he's warning us about Rach's (or anyone else's) potential catch up before the post is even there.

I don't agree with you. Saying that catch up posts are easier to make look towny after someone made a catch up and people called that towny is scummy, and not what I did.

What kind of reaction would you expect instead from town!Dooku?

A reasoned argument would have made me more likely to think he's town. Instead, he seems to just be getting angrier and angrier. His reaction felt to me as if when I suggested his post was a scum slip that I was right.

Tons of posts have been made by me containing reasoned arguments, before I got angry

[Count Dooku]

And what? It is ridiculous. Everything I say in one post have to be related?!

I mean generally, if the post is completely lacking in any sort of segue? YES. I don't buy your "It's so silly to assume that I meant JUST her" logic, this (and several subsequent posts) sounds like some serious backpedaling to me.

That is your problem. That was the truth. I meant her, and others. And actually I have never done anything that would prove the opposite. It is only you trying to make me look like a scum.

Mmmm...kay.

I want to stop this pointless discussion. I don't have anything more to say about it. Vote me, lynch me, stop it.

This, to me, clearly says he's giving up on arguing his point and is just going for the righteous-indignation stance instead of articulating his reasoning.

I have answered those silly questions sveral times, but they kept askig and asking them. It is pointless to spam pages with the same questions and answeres. But, it looks like you like to talk about the same topic again and agin and again, so if you want, I will answer all your questions about that topic. Ask them. If you want to spend more hours with that pointless discussion, then go ahead, and ask me.

This is actually the first I've said about it, but thank you for the blanket generalization.

You are welcome.

How about c)
. His comment meant nothing to Rach.

Whether it meant something to her or not is largely irrelevant, it's more about whether he INTENDED it to mean something to her.

Yes, I intended to refer to Rach. But (I hate that I have to say the same things again and again, because you are asking the same bad and pointless questions again and again) not only to her, to others too, for example deathfisaro or croboss. And I told you it several times, but it looks like there is a problem with your grasp.

Again, this is the first time I've pointed it out - the problem is less with our grasp of your reasoning, and more with your inability to a) grasp our reasoning or b) defend your views with reason and logic, rather than just getting super-huffy and insulting.

Nope, the problem is not with my reasoning, it is more with you don't understand it OR don't want to understand it. I think the latter.

LOL

Again...seemingly out of arguments.

My respond to House's post was explained just like the post and the scumread was explained itself.

I'm actually not sure what this means so I'm going to leave it alone, I will be happy to address it if you want to clarify.

434 = shitposting

And again.

Thank you for showing us that you didn't even read the thread. Had you read post 439, you would have known that I was going to explain it today.

Oh I read it, but I didn't agree that it was shitposting, and I'm not a huge fan of "I don't like this and neither should you but I'm not going to explain why until later" posts.

I will tell you a secret. I am living in Europe. UTC + 1. If I hadn't said anything about it, Victor would have thought (or I think it is more likely that he would have said that he thought, but not really, he only would have wanted to make me scummy with that, just like he did that earlier) that I am running away, so I said that I didn't like it, but I was going to tell you the next day, because it was late in my timezone.

VOTE: Count Dooku

Nice scummy jump on the most recent wagon without stating anything real/genuine/original.

Pretty sure I laid out my reasoning above, but it seems that there is a problem with your grasp.

Yes, you laid that out. But those are not real/original/genuine reasons.

[pisskop]

Dooku. Can you make an effort to separate you responses into other posts?

Code: Select all

[quote]
and
[/quote]

will let you say things if you frame the other person's quotes as such. I find it sometimes hard to follow what is you and what isn't despite your coloration of your text. Red is scummy and blue is towny?

[Count Dooku]

I don't think Dooku is a good lynch. I really get the vibe of a pressured townie out of him.

Where did Death go? OR NJAC?

You defending him just makes me that much more certain he needs to die today.

Bad logic. Maybe he is scum, trying to WK me. I don't think he is, but since you are scumreading him, you should have considered it.

[Count Dooku]

Dooku. Can you make an effort to separate you responses into other posts?

Code: Select all

[quote]
and
[/quote]

will let you say things if you frame the other person's quotes as such. I find it sometimes hard to follow what is you and what isn't despite your coloration of your text. Red is scummy and blue is towny?

Normal text and underlined text is from Lal, red and blue came form me, in this sequence: normal - red - underlined - blue.
I am sorry. I thought it is easier to understand what am I referring to, if you see Lalendra's posts, too.

[Count Dooku]

1 Just because we have a three week Day 1 (and seriously, why three week days, NS, a game this size should really be two week days at most IMO) doesn't mean we have to use every second. And lynching scum is never silly. If you really did think he was obvscum I would expect you to pushing the lynch hard, instead hoping he 'clarifies' himself or someone acts scummier out of nowhere. But that's pretty much what I said before, and other than saying that my points apparently didn't make sense you didn't really address it at all.
2 Drezi pretty much already explains before, there is a clear difference between what was said, and what your implying was said. No one is against scumreading Croboss because he's newbie; it simply the fact none of your points against actually point to him being scum. I really dislike the way you keep trying to make it out as though people are outright refusing to scumread him on principal, when it must be clear to you that is not what is going on.
3 I know I have to tread the line carefully here, but if anyone else has doubts about whether Croboss was specifically avoiding this game, I urge you to look at his profile and his posting in all games. In addition his replace should be a pretty big hint that Dooku is talking shit here.

1. We don't have to use every second. But the more content we do, the easier we can catch scum. I don't understand you.
2. Lie. I have pointed out scumtells about him, and Drezi said that he found those things scummy too, but because he is a newbie, he doesn't think he is scum. So (and I hate that I have to repeat my words all the time, because you don't understand me) the only reason he didn't scumread him was because he is a newbie. I really dislike that you are asking the same things again and again, no matter how many times I answered them.
3.Before he replaced out, he was avoiding this game specifically, or at least it looked like it. After he replaced out, I unvoted, and said, that from then on I didn't think it anymore. A suggestion: before you try to make me look scummy, and state that I am talking shit at least read my posts, because people wont buy your arctifical scumreads like this.
So... do you know who is talking shit? You.

[Riabi]

What is your issue with the timing?

I didn't like that he's warning us about Rach's (or anyone else's) potential catch up before the post is even there.

I don't agree with you. Saying that catch up posts are easier to make look towny after someone made a catch up and people called that towny is scummy, and not what I did.

So, you don't agree with me, you've said this before. What is your point in responding to my answer to someone else's question? This started when I said I agreed with others. You've stated your disagreement with us in the past. Do you have new content?

What kind of reaction would you expect instead from town!Dooku?

A reasoned argument would have made me more likely to think he's town. Instead, he seems to just be getting angrier and angrier. His reaction felt to me as if when I suggested his post was a scum slip that I was right.

Tons of posts have been made by me containing reasoned arguments, before I got angry

Why get angry at all if you aren't feeling threatened by being called out? If you go back through our interactions, you'll see that I never asked you to restate your position. All I did was say "btw, I agree with some of the others about you", then you went off. There was no reason to do that, you could have ignored it and moved on. To me, it seems like you brought out your same old tired arguments against me because you REALLY didn't want me/us to think you were scum. Incidentally, you commenting on my response to Drezi's question above only solidifies my point here.

[Count Dooku]

Okay Guys. You must not respond/state your thoughts about a post that a player said to another player, unless you are that player. Warning, Riabi will use it against you, if you still do it.

[Count Dooku]

Why get angry at all if you aren't feeling threatened by being called out?

Because this game supposed to be entertaining. When people ask you the same stupid questions, even when you answered them, it is not fun anymore.

[SIR CYANIDE]

Blue is the mod color. You want to get modkilled?

[Riabi]

Why get angry at all if you aren't feeling threatened by being called out?

Because this game supposed to be entertaining. When people ask you the same stupid questions, even when you answered them, it is not fun anymore.

But, I didn't ASK you a question when this started. All I did was say "hey, I agree." You could have just left it alone and ignored it. In fact, here is my exact quote:

@Dukoo, for the record, I agree with people who claim your 354 is suspect. Whether you meant it that way or not, your post came across as applying at least MOSTLY to Rach.

If you really wanted to stop talking about this, why did you respond to that at all? Why didn't you just leave it alone?

[acryon]

Blue is the mod color. You want to get modkilled?

TBF,

bolded

blue is his color.