Mini 1651: One Flew Over The Monkey's Nest(Scum Wins!)

[mykonian]

Actually, I could even link you to it.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p6647588

[toolenduso]

But if I was scum, wouldn't I do precisely that in order to get you to think that?

I'm still catching up but I wanted to stop for a second and mark this post for future use, because I don't think I've ever seen a clearer example of WIFOM on this site than this post. I'm not saying this makes RC scum necessarily (there's much more to look at in his ISO), but this sentence like...belongs in a textbook.

[mykonian]

Ah, the blessing of internet in the train. Let see what I can put together in 50 min.

I don't think post by post analysis is very useful, nobody reads it anyway, but otoh I like posting when I read something, so bear with me.

First things first, I don't like RC. In general. A post like post 8 puts me off straight away anyway. I think the game would be better off without him, and knowing from the next pages, I'm going to keep thinking that.

My initial read of Eektor was his random vote as well. His explanation of "I got tagged, lets pass it on" is super awkward and scummy. You'd be fine without a reason, and shift of responsibility is just sucky.

page 2 is a giant waste of time. Oh, page three, I remember this one. Taly's unvote of eektor. I did not get this at all. We've really not reached escape velocity from the start of the game, given MC's random vote and subsequent inconsequental responses. Eektor had shown nothing positive yet. And somehow, this was taly's time to unvote and not make any positive move. Just to make sure you understand me, a positive move would be accusing someone, preferably without being prompted by someone else. Initiative would have been a more correct term. Taly shows none here. Which btw is going to come back. The moment Taly gets moving again is when I poke around with half posts (call it whatever you like, either laziness or "reaction tests" or w/e, I posted less than I could in the early game and that tends to annoy people). Anyway, that's the point that Taly gets moving against me, that was prompted. So there's that pattern there.

post 121 by toolenduso[/ur] is pushing taly on a good point. I can't help but like toolen for that, Lemons has voiced similar statements before and after but did less to act on it. In similar way, elyse has voice opinions I had in mind at that time. All can go on the town pile for thinking like I do though. Borders on tunneling from me, but I can afford that day one, I think. In response, 124 is horrible. That's as passive as you are going to get.

Hmm, I have lemons as a scumread at that point, lets see if I can retrace what post made me think that. (rereading, he was the first person to talk about dude and my claim being fake. That's a small blemish, really. But i'd expect scum to make such a post more easily. Something to keep in mind)

Page 8 converts my earlier promise of seeing scum in posts of taly into the real case when he finally bites and makes a vote again. As mentioned before, I don't want to call this initiative, it's very reactive to a vague post by me.

At which point RC goes off on idk what tangent, pushes practically policy lynch suddenly and idk, it's not as if we are playing with shotty here. I have no clue what goes on in RC's mind, but otoh it's probably better to keep it that way. Hell, if there was one player to policy lynch this game, I'd know who I would pick.

With that last part said VOTE: RadiantCowbells. RC makes me nervous, I don't really like the push on Odd then the switch over to Aqua. I see this as the best D1 lynch right now and the flip, either way, would provide us with the most information.

MC's vote is a bit strange. Not really seeing that.

MC's vote is a bit strange. Not really seeing that.

What's brothering you about it? I want to see if I can explain it better.

Ok, I missed this last question, my apologies.

I dislike RC too. Means that I really don't want to read him right now because I'm going to be biased anyway. Either way, this is not the way to reach a vote.

People who make you nervous aren't people who you think are scummy.
People who would "either way" provide you the most information aren't people who you think are scummy.

and these two thoughts aren't exclusive to me, there's a reason there's some hate on information lynches anyway. You should have known better.

And 2 stations still to go, post is done!

[mykonian]

oh bloody hell, I'd be very grateful if the mod could fix that link

also, tl;dr:

Toolen: town
Elyse: town
Lemons: town but something to keep an eye on.

eektor: scum
taly: d1 lynch
RC: annoying.

For the rest there is a sliding scale but I'll post about it when I figure out more.

[Taly]

hmm, no, don't think so taly. I don't think you get credit for putting me in the spotlight. I've made two whole posts about voting a townread, you'd really need to step up your game.

And coming clean isn't a thing in mafia. If you are scum at the start of the game, you are scum for the entirity of the game. You can't say "sorry" about a post that exposes you.

@aquanim, iso me for a case on Taly. It's one of the last posts.

You may have validity in your first sentence, and I know coming clean isn't exactly normal in mafia.

But I really doubt you'd see actual scum openly admitting to a mistake to others. Even if they would do that for town cred, I don't think you can just pass that off as me being scum either way. I've justified myself, and even though at this point that really doesn't seem to hold up a lot, that's my defense and I don't agree with all the reasons people are on my wagon. I'm pretty sure there are 1, maybe 2 people on my wagon that aren't even voting for alignment reasons. (RC specifically for 199 and 326)

Overall, it seems like the people who are town-reading me(or not voting against me) are as plentiful as the people who are on a wagon against me. So in terms of me being a D1 lynch, that seems very likely but I don't know what everyone elses thoughts are on about that yet. Nor does it matter much because I've said almost everything I possibly can to make a case, defend myself, give reasons for my thoughts on most everything else, and try to make it known that I am town. I have made mistakes, and that is to be expected since I'm a noob(I am not saying that this an excuse, just something I expected from playing several games on a forum at once.) I just knew this would happen in one of them.

Also, we are only in the first half of D1 and quite a few people seem confident in a lynch? That seems odd, but nevertheless. I know I haven't been as helpful as town to you guys as I could have been (since Elyses and part of your case is valid on me), but the mentality some people have displayed here really are inconsistent, and I feel like that contributes a lot to most D1 lynches being a townie, or someone who has made accurate predictions about someone.

This post kind of turned from me defending myself to me talking about logistics of the game. I know few people will actually listen to me now since they probably are happy they aren't getting lynched, I just hope people know the consequences that'd come from lynching someone. (Whether they are scum, a townie, etc. -- This is also why I weigh so heavily on trying to find alignment in posts as opposed to people messing up.)

Whatever, I'm rambling and I've put my point across.

[pisskop]

I think Pisskop posted his notes lol.

Yes. Well, most of them. I was too tired to expound on them or filter/sort them into finished product.

@Pisskop: if you consider Taly's #239 inherently lynchable in as of itself why is he not in your top three scumreads?

Because I have mixed feelings on the slot.
Because I'm interested in the wagon on the slot.
Because I'm noting potential associations for tomorrow.

[RadiantCowbells]

#354 while the logic is very questionable seems like a genuine stream of consciousness rant that is usually something that comes from town.

Still lean scum but I have bigger fish to fry so

VOTE: EvenMusic

[Metalcyanide]

Just did a quick little post:
Taly has a lot of UtE in 354 not sure how to feel about that.
RC - Did you mean Oddmusic? And I know you have explained it before but can I get a full reasoning behind your push for Odd

Also, @MOD I'm going to be V/LA this weekend. I'll try to check in but don't count on much from me

[pisskop]

@MOD I'm going to be V/LA this weekend. I'll try to check in but don't count on much from me

old it.

[RadiantCowbells]

Because the rest of the people on my wagon are coming across as derps, whereas he comes across as calculating.

[MonkeyMan576]

Boonskiies is replacing Aeronaut.

[pisskop]

Ohhh. Boons!
. Is IL your partner?

[MonkeyMan576]

Vote Count 1.07 - up to post #361.

Taly[5]: Toolenduso, Elyse, mykonian, RadiantCowbells, InsidiousLemons[L-2]
RadiantCowbells[3]: oddmusic, Metalcyanide, Taly[L-4]
oddmusic[2]: eektor, pisskop
Eektor[2]: Boonskies, Aquanim
InsdiousLemons[1]: TheDudeAbides

Not Voting: None

Mod notes: Boonskiies has replaced Aeronaut.

With 13 alive, it requires 7 votes to lynch.

Day ends on Monday, March 16th at 5:10 PM USA Mountain Time, or when a lynch occurs

[RadiantCowbells]

Boons?

ಠ_ಠ

[Aquanim]

Actually, I could even link you to it.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p6647588

I really don't understand how post 124 was to be seen as scum mykonian, I was openly receptive for people to ask questions

Actually, I can easily explain what's bothering me with this post, and in a similar way, post 124.

Asking people to ask you questions, esspecially at this early point of the game is a defense mechanism. Explaining what you did and why you did things tends to put people at ease. Since scum hasn't really bothered to make any moves, they haven't been in tight spots yet (hey, we just finished the RVS), this is "easy". Which is wrong with this post and post 124.

The second thing that is very wrong with this post in particular is the emphasis on "openly". This is a given when you are town. The emphasis doesn't make half as much sense when you are town (you are open anyway), but makes more sense from a scum mindset "I can still be honest about my gameplay so far, there's nothing to find".

So the way I see it, Taly is a prime candidate for scum.

I don't think this is really all that good.

At the time of #124 Taly had just been voted by toolenduso; responding to a vote with a "defence mechanism" seems entirely reasonable to me. I am perhaps biased because telling people to ask me questions about my reads and actions so as to understand them is one of my primary "defence mechanisms", as a townie. It is a thing I do when my reaction to a case is "Yes, those facts have been accurately reported; do you want to know why I did what I did as town?".

As for the second, laying emphasis on the choice of words of a player who does not appear to be particularly skilled at writing clearly, concisely and accurately (no offence ) seems rather unreliable to me.

I have two questions for you:
1) Do you think Taly is willingly revealing his own reasoning for his reads and motivation for his actions?
2) Do you think Taly is trying to draw information out of other players to further his own reads?

[Elyse]

I don't like the interaction between Aqua and RC. It seems fake.

Do you think you're seeing fake in the sense that RC is scum, I'm scum, or we're both scum?

I'm not sure yet. It's not something I'm interested in pursuing right now, but RC used horrible WIFOM (that someone pointed out later) to justify his actions and you agreed with him almost immediately. It's fishy.

@Elyse

: Can I get from you a one paragraph or so summary of why you think Taly is scum?

Sure.

Taly placed a vote on mykonian and said he unvoted because of mykonian's explanation of his reads. I pointed out that this was untrue because Taly posted three times after mykonian's explanation and only unvoted after pressure from me. He later admitted this to be true and apologized for being dishonest. However, earlier in the game I pressed him about honesty and asked if it was ever acceptable for town to be dishonest. He said no, but contradicted himself when he was openly dishonest for fear of looking bad. This has moved him from newbscum to newbtown in my opinion. He then talked about how he "came clean" and explained his true intentions. It just seems like he's trying to cover up his obviously scummy behavior by playing the newb card and hoping everyone will sweep it under the rug.

[pisskop]

School is closed due to weather, I have actually slept for a night the past few days, and I’m in a better mentality for putting my thoughts across.

You have a lot of townreads and only 1 scumread.
Who do you think are the best lynches today?

[oddmusic]

Because the rest of the people on my wagon are coming across as derps, whereas he comes across as calculating.

I don't think I've ever been called calculating before. And was my initial reaction to being called a waffle really calculated? I think it was more over the top pissed off.

[oddmusic]

School is closed due to weather, I have actually slept for a night the past few days, and I’m in a better mentality for putting my thoughts across.

You have a lot of townreads and only 1 scumread.
Who do you think are the best lynches today?

Seconded. I'd really like to hear the answer to this.

[Taly]

I don't like the interaction between Aqua and RC. It seems fake.

Do you think you're seeing fake in the sense that RC is scum, I'm scum, or we're both scum?

I'm not sure yet. It's not something I'm interested in pursuing right now, but RC used horrible WIFOM (that someone pointed out later) to justify his actions and you agreed with him almost immediately. It's fishy.

@Elyse

: Can I get from you a one paragraph or so summary of why you think Taly is scum?

Sure.

Taly placed a vote on mykonian and said he unvoted because of mykonian's explanation of his reads. I pointed out that this was untrue because Taly posted three times after mykonian's explanation and only unvoted after pressure from me. He later admitted this to be true and apologized for being dishonest. However, earlier in the game I pressed him about honesty and asked if it was ever acceptable for town to be dishonest. He said no, but contradicted himself when he was openly dishonest for fear of looking bad. This has moved him from newbscum to newbtown in my opinion. He then talked about how he "came clean" and explained his true intentions. It just seems like he's trying to cover up his obviously scummy behavior by playing the newb card and hoping everyone will sweep it under the rug.

OK, there's a few things I'm not understanding here.

1)

However, earlier in the game I pressed him about honesty and asked if it was ever acceptable for town to be dishonest. He said no,

When was this?

I don't remember a conversation between us directly Elyse, until you confronted me about mykonian. (At least not about honesty - Could you link the posts?) I don't think I explicitly said it was unacceptable for town to be dishonest. (It does render towns progress) It's just that I skimmed over the past few pages and I don't recall saying this.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Another thing about this - The only thing I've said was that I was being honest(and then not telling the full truth) - AKA, me not saying your pressure influenced me. I did contradict and wasn't fully honest about that, I admit.

2)

This has moved him from newbscum to newbtown in my opinion. He then talked about how he "came clean" and explained his true intentions. It just seems like he's trying to cover up his obviously scummy behavior by playing the newb card and hoping everyone will sweep it under the rug.

This is the first I've seen that you've given me a townread

,

but then you were talking about me covering up my shaky behavior with the newbie card?

354 I said me being a noobie didn't excuse the fact that I created an obstruction for the town anyhow. I just said that you normally wouldn't see scum openly admitting mistakes and then went on a mini-rant about the logistics of how the norm D1 goes, and how that incorporates in this game.

Plus, I said I had almost

little to nothing

to say to continue on for a defense on this.

Why would I expect people to just magically unvote(while being at L-2 at the time) me just for me saying: "I'm a noob and I did a mistake..."

And 3 and finally) What IS your read on me? Individually? I think you're saying I'm town, but you're giving reasons to possibly suspect I'm really scum? Sorry, this paragraph confused me.

>>>>>

School is closed due to weather, I have actually slept for a night the past few days, and I’m in a better mentality for putting my thoughts across.

You have a lot of townreads and only 1 scumread.
Who do you think are the best lynches today?

Well, I do have my vote on RC and that will be my default until I have stronger reason on someone else

(Wnich may change even in this post because typing this helps me sort priorities

). However, I have analyzed a bit on RC's posts..." I'm not liking them as much as anyone else, but :

356 gave me a gut feeling that she may just be inconsistent in her playstyle.

333 and 334 <<< Looking back at this, I liked how RC ultimately diffused the situation. (even though I don't know how it started really.) Even though her other statements in this back and forth concerned me, she did show that she had a better idea on who is who(she gave indirect reads on aqua and what she knew aqua knew of her), and ultimately said that the whole thing wasn't helping town and I liked to hear that motivation, she seemed willing to do good.

She's still on my scum list, just not as strong as before....

I think I'd be willing to not lynch her now because I want to see more before I'm certain she is crazy.... ;p (half-joking)

>>>> Other than her, Myko has really worried me. I didn't like his argument in:

349 <<< He came off as really confident to me. "And coming clean isn't a thing in mafia. If you are scum at the start of the game, you are scum for the entirity of the game. You can't say "sorry" about a post that exposes you."

1) The problem I have the MOST with this. "Coming clean isn't a thing in mafia." <<<< Sure coming clean can make people suspect scum, but this tells me you really wouldn't be honest to help the town if it meant making you look bad. You are correct about that, but generalizing that this "isn't a thing" gives me a bad gut feeling. It also makes me wonder if that's why you don't always share your reads and don't let your intentions known often.

2) Second sentence -

What?

What are you trying to tell me? That just so someone makes a mistake they are always going to be not useful and scum? Are you

THAT

confident in asserting someone did something alignment indicative over something you didn't like?

3) Well I did, even though there is now a valid case over me(also courtesy of you because you obviously think I'm mafia completely by the implications of your previous statements), does that mean that things are that

acute

if it doesn't seem right? It may be the middle of D1 but you could at least try to see other possibilities in this situation.

352 and 353 = 354 Not best argument to this, but this does explain myself a bit more.

>>> I don't know, the more Mykonian posts the more I'm not liking it. Also, in 353 he makes it known I'm going to be the D1 lynch, and gives only 5 other people reads that aren't even explained. I can get why he would want more info. but I don't think it goes well with him asserting his already validated argument, to someone who could have just been so easily lynched if people change at that point. I didn't see much help it did to others.

Mykonian may just be stronger vote than RC, but since everyone seems to be having changed reads, votes, and ideas lately.... People seem to think he isn't that bad of a read. (from what I've read)

And I don't even like saying "who should we lynch" when we still have at least a few days further in D1

.

But, I would say Mykonian(probably not, but maybe RC) is the lynch of D1, other than them... I would gladly boot a player who has not been very active or helpful in their thoughts lately. (Like eektor, for example.)

So, I'm unsure about RC, so she is second/third on my vote/thinking to lynch

I'd be good for a Mykonian lynch today.

If eektor was lynched, that wouldn't bother me. (I know I just brought him up but he is not convincing people of his position otherwise.) I will be receptive to questions concerning this statement if you feel this is weird.)

Yeah, thanks for asking odd/aqua. You guys helped me sort my thoughts indirectly.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: mykonian

[RadiantCowbells]

I think Scum!oddmusic would have thought it through and seen certain advantages to voting me as opposed to voting other players.

[InsidiousLemons]

^RC made the point before about stream of conciousness posts generally coming from town, which I agree with for the most part, and 369 is another example of one of these types of posts. I'm not entirely convinced Taly isn't scum but he's certainly gained points with me.

[eektor]

I investigated Mykonian in pre-game and he is scum:

Vote: Mykyonian

Is this supposed to be an RVS vote?

Well we are out of RVS so I'm going to unvote

UNVOTE:

Nope. but are you telling me that you know he's town?

That's a pretty big misrep and no I don't think he's town. So why did you take your vote off him, if you know he's scum?

How did I mis-rep you? I asked you a question.
Why did you assume that my claim was bs? I mean it was, but why did you assume that.

Because I never heard of a pre-game cop and if you were I doubt anyone would be dumb enough to out themselves first post. As for the misrep, it was a loaded question and it was what you were implying.

[eektor]

Some of the points did not make sense.

This is why I don't bother explaining my reads; people frequently say that my points don't make sense, not because they don't make sense but either because they don't understand them or I suck at putting it into words.

There's a difference, and discrediting my reads in general because of one game where I actually did better than the town in general besides my one read on Elbirn is not justified.

It bears noting that my push in Aqua is muddled because my read on Aqua is muddled, and while #172 remains total garbage (talking to someone as if they're confirmed town while professing a null read, trying to discredit the wagon by casting me as scum)

RC is all this in this post directed to me? In what way did I discredit your reads?

[eektor]

@Mod I'll be V/LA this weekend. I'll be able to get caught up on Monday.