13p Normal [TM2015]

[pieguyn]

I feel mostly ok with Fenchurch on reread. I have some paranoia over the jason push and bc I always get paranoid when people have me as their strongest town read, but I generally think her reasoning for it was at least reasonable. besides that a lot of her thoughts have been similar to mine over the course of the game (Mala scum in particular) and I have gut-town on the way she's been consistently attempting to shut down suspicion on her town reads. also I'm going to hazard a guess that scum tried to force the jason lynch through even despite him claiming bodyguard, which makes her immediately backing off a point in her favor.

Thor claiming hider actually makes a lot of sense I think from him-scum - it'd open the door to a potential 3rd (possibly investigative) CC and then scum are in a good position with 2 claims on the table. on another note I realized my statement about using hider to fake a guilty is dumb. yay for it being 4 AM -.-

[pieguyn]

most of these wagons are really bad. I don't like Egg's TH vote in particular, he spent a fuckton of time this day phase calling sthar scum and didn't appear to have much of a strong read on TH - I think he's afraid to commit to a scum read on sthar bc he'd look worse off it when sthar flips town.

vote: Thor

I really really really wanna do this. if not, someone come up with an acceptable compromise. I should be around tomorrow.

[Fenchurch]

I'm disappointed not to find more posts here this morning, with just 1 day to deadline, I think there are some who have not even commented on the claims yet. I'd also like Thor to confirm his planned night action, and clarify about his role.

Fenchurch, you don't have a single scum read?!?

I still think both of the claimants are scummy, but I want to give both a chance to confirm themselves (or give us info) before I would lynch them. Also, I re-read both sthar and Mala this morning, and sthar is still null for me, but more on Mala below.

Prior to claim I definitely found Jason's play scummy, although I do concede it's possible this is down to wildly different playstyles. I've read pie's counter argument but it doesn't really compensate for the things I find suspect. His push on Boon rests mainly on a thing Boon said once in a scum game and said again here. This is a fairly weak case in my opinion, and doesn't merit the weight jason gave it.

Prior to claim I found Thor potentially scummy for being needlessly antagonistic (a strategy I think he is likely to employ as scum), but I find him even more so post-claim.

My team talked again this morning about the Hider claim. My one issue with the plan of Thor hiding behind jason Tonight is, what if jason is scum, Thor-town, and the scum team have a roleblocker. Would they be able to roleblock Thor, he wouldn't die, and then we would think jason is confirmed town? CES says these are the kind of reasons why Hider was taken off the whitelist: it's interactions with other roles is unclear or unintuitive.

sthar, some of the other Nexus-mod games you checked are not Normals, is that right? CDB says the siblings were from a Harry Potter mini theme, although it was a fairly Normal theme, apparently. Not that it makes a big difference as I still think it is ~possible~ that Nexus would use a Hider.

If I was going to lynch either claimant now it would be Thor, because I think the claim itself, the circumstances surrounding it, and his subsequent absence all seem scummy. But I think we are in a much better position if we lynch elsewhere today, as we have the chance to gain more information about both Thor and Jason from the Night.

I'm not VLA anymore so if you want to push my lynch; I'd look forward to a case that doesn't relate to wicked and actually had some substance of this game so I can try to refute the case on me.

Well you hadn't commented much on the game since you came out of VLA so it didn't feel like you were.

And that feeds in to the essence of my case on Mala, which I did give once before. I've just re-read her ISO and I still see very little by way of substance; lots of vacillating on some players (notably Jason and Thor), some comments about things that 'bother' her, but no real pushes to get a lynch. Scum want to give reads (to look like their scum hunting) but don't have the same inherent desire to get a lynch, and they may even be hesitant to push as their reads will be put to the test. I thought her case on me had no real substance and the Iec thing is pretty weak considering she mentioned it twice beforehand as something she needed to think more about. She disagrees with my early-game read on SleepyKrew seeming town for his confidence, but provides no explanation about why saying this would make me scum.

And Mala, I think it's unreasonable of you to expect me to ignore Wicked in reading you, when that is our only previous game together, and you are also referencing Wicked in your read of me.

[Fenchurch]

Since pie has already switched away from sthar, and the re-read makes me more confident on Mala-scum, I'm moving my vote, although I'm willing to move again in order to get a lynch. But I'd much prefer not to lynch Thor or jason Today.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Malakittens

Sleepy - what is your read on Mala?

[pieguyn]

Prior to claim I definitely found Jason's play scummy, although I do concede it's possible this is down to wildly different playstyles. I've read pie's counter argument but it doesn't really compensate for the things I find suspect. His push on Boon rests mainly on a thing Boon said once in a scum game and said again here. This is a fairly weak case in my opinion, and doesn't merit the weight jason gave it.

even discounting the claim I'm about 90% sure this is more of a playstyle issue

him railing on Boon despite not having a 100% solid case is bc he's pissed off and indignated that Boon is pushing him for what, from his POV, he is perceiving as complete bullshit (and if you think about it that way, it makes even more sense bc he thinks Boon is outright making stuff up here). I don't think he as scum has any reason to go out of his way to do this - he could just as easily fake a calmer/more rational response as scum.

If I was going to lynch either claimant now it would be Thor, because I think the claim itself, the circumstances surrounding it, and his subsequent absence all seem scummy. But I think we are in a much better position if we lynch elsewhere today, as we have the chance to gain more information about both Thor and Jason from the Night.

I'd agree with this (the alternative being a sthar lynch), except I have massively bad gut vibes about the way the wagons are right now. :/

I think that if Thor is scum scum are all just going to bloc vote whatever easy wagon(s) comes up and we'll be stuck in the ass with not enough time to get a correct lynch. see: the large number of people who have been sitting on their ass wrt votes instead of trying to put effort into making someone a viable lynch target.

[Trojan Horse]

This is probably my last post for 12-13 hours. I'll try to make good use of it.

SK, no wall posts, please. I won't have time to respond to everything. Also: Tammy says she wants a chance to give one final set of reads, if it looks like I'm going to be lynched. So don't put the hammer on me yet.

so

quick search through all mini games Nexus modded shows he's never used a hider before (unless I'm just blatantly missing it). if he put one here, it's the first time he's done it. I don't know how unreasonable this is given he's also used stuff like super-saint, global-roleblocking IC, and siblings, though.

Interesting. Not something we can rely on, but this does mean that my reasons for disbelieving jason's claim now apply more strongly to Thor's claim. Hmm.

UNVOTE: jason
VOTE: Thor

Next: the idea of having Thor hide behind jason is an interesting one. Might be a good idea. I'll think about it. But I won't support it until Thor confirms that he will die if he hides behind scum. I don't want him to have a chance to back-pedal; he needs to confirm it now.

I think that if Thor is scum scum are all just going to bloc vote whatever easy wagon(s) comes up and we'll be stuck in the ass with not enough time to get a correct lynch. see: the large number of people who have been sitting on their ass wrt votes instead of trying to put effort into making someone a viable lynch target.

Or perhaps scum will just sit back and hope for a no-lynch.

[Egg]

Pie, why is hider easier to fake? It's essentially confirming a townie every day and if you confirm a buddy and one of you dies, the other is auto lynch. Bodyguard can just say "I tried to protect X and failed" every day which works until there is an obvious protect.

You are misunderstanding my earlier issues with Jason. It's similar to my latest point against Trojan. He didn't seem to be open to any possibility that he could be wrong which doesn't look like he's trying to figure things out.

I understand where you get "going with the flow" from my play. I've been V/LA almost all of Day 1. This should be better on Day 2.

On the Boon/Delta thing, it's noteworthy because I felt like Boon was dancing around a Delta scum read and then came in and defended Delta. If Boon flips scum, it's a good enough reason to look into Delta.

Thor's posts since my second to last catchup look like his town meta. The way he argues with Jason and STD, specifically. And it's not that scum faking innocents on buddies "helps town". It's that the second one of them flips scum, the other is auto lynched which is risky. It's not impossible that this is what Thor is doing. It's just that calling it easy is just straight wrong.

Also, I wasn't calling sthar scum for very long if you look at my ISO.

[Egg]

Fenchurch, the mala vote kind of sucks right now. We are in a deadline compromise situation and mala has no other votes if I'm not mistaken.

[SleepyKrew]

Sleepy - what is your read on Mala?

Don't have one. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Don't see why it would matter either.

I actually really like the case on Egg, but not going to change my vote until I clear my mind and get some feedback from teammates.

[Egg]

What did you like about it

[SleepyKrew]

I thought that the points were good and not bad and they made me think that you are scum. Also the first point in 756 is terrible but I wanna see pieguy respond to the rest.

[Save The Dragons]

VOTE: Thor

[Nexus]

Votecount 1.15:

jasonT1981 (1)-

Thor665,

Thor665 (4)-

sthar8, pieguyn, Trojan Horse, Save The Dragons,

Trojan Horse (3)-

Boonskiies, SleepyKrew, Egg

Fenchurch (1)-

Malakittens

Malakittens (1)-

Fenchurch,

Boonskiies (1)-

DeltaWave

Not Voting (2)-

VysePresident, jasonT1981,

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is at 6pm GMT on the 14th April - (expired on 2015-04-14 13:00:00)

Thor665 is v/la until 15th April
Fenchurch is semi-v/la until 18th April.

[jasonT1981]

vote: Trojan Horse

We should NOT be lynching a claimed power role today. There is no way now I can support a thor lynch. My team believe, and I agree Horse is best chance of hitting scum.

[SleepyKrew]

Hey jason I didn't find the stuff.

[jasonT1981]

this should answer your question.

Again so you have meta on Boon doing what he does this as both alignments, but you are still trying to push a policy lynch via saying he's a liability. I have seen him just hammer people at will AND BE TOWN. I have seen him self-meta AND BE TOWN. So him doing everything above is null.

In then end you are trying to chalk up a null-read as a policy lynch, end of story.

Rubbish. It is not a policy lynch.

The Meta is him

boasting as scum about doing it, he did it as scum in Pokemon, he did it here.

The action of hammering town

is not the meta issue

, its the boasting about doing so is the meta issue. Can you show me examples of him posting 'I hammer town reads' when he is town in a game? If so I will retract my comments on it. But right now, he boasted about it as scum in Pokemon, and has boasted here about it too. It is a match to scum boon unless you can show me otherwise him posting about hammering town reads when he is town (Note - not the action of hammering but the boasting about doing so like he has here and in pokemon)

My comments about him being a liability were because I expected to wake up to be lynched. Can't quite remember now why though I thought I was waking up to noose. IF Boon is town (which I highly doubt) that is someone you do not want around towards end game as he could cost town. That is the point I was making there

Understand now?

Good, I am not going around in circles again on this.

One last time

The meta is him boasting as scum about doing it. NOT the action of doing it as town.

[SleepyKrew]

It didn't at all. Additionally, "he did it once as scum" continues to be an awful case.

[SleepyKrew]

But I'm sure that quote from you was *not* based on calling him scummy for playstyle.

I said his mentality of hammering town reads is a liability and I stand by that.

Who has motive to hammer someone coming across as town?

I'll give you a hint, but its really not hard for anyone to work out? - It's not anyone on the town side of things.

It is not a play style attack, its an attack on actions I believe are scum and not of town.

If someone is willing to hammer someone coming across as town... that is scum right there.

This post continues to be completely different.

[jasonT1981]

I refuse to get any further into things I've explained it as best I can. No point beating a dead horse any further on this. Because it will just go around and around and is a waste of time explaining things further.

[Nexus]

Further to discussions with the rest of the team, it has been decided there will be no deadline extension.

Deadline remains as it originally was - 6pm on the 14th April - (expired on 2015-04-14 13:00:00)

[Malakittens]

I'm disappointed not to find more posts here this morning, with just 1 day to deadline, I think there are some who have not even commented on the claims yet. I'd also like Thor to confirm his planned night action, and clarify about his role.

Fenchurch, you don't have a single scum read?!?

I still think both of the claimants are scummy, but I want to give both a chance to confirm themselves (or give us info) before I would lynch them. Also, I re-read both sthar and Mala this morning, and sthar is still null for me, but more on Mala below.

Prior to claim I definitely found Jason's play scummy, although I do concede it's possible this is down to wildly different playstyles. I've read pie's counter argument but it doesn't really compensate for the things I find suspect. His push on Boon rests mainly on a thing Boon said once in a scum game and said again here. This is a fairly weak case in my opinion, and doesn't merit the weight jason gave it.

Prior to claim I found Thor potentially scummy for being needlessly antagonistic (a strategy I think he is likely to employ as scum), but I find him even more so post-claim.

My team talked again this morning about the Hider claim. My one issue with the plan of Thor hiding behind jason Tonight is, what if jason is scum, Thor-town, and the scum team have a roleblocker. Would they be able to roleblock Thor, he wouldn't die, and then we would think jason is confirmed town? CES says these are the kind of reasons why Hider was taken off the whitelist: it's interactions with other roles is unclear or unintuitive.

sthar, some of the other Nexus-mod games you checked are not Normals, is that right? CDB says the siblings were from a Harry Potter mini theme, although it was a fairly Normal theme, apparently. Not that it makes a big difference as I still think it is ~possible~ that Nexus would use a Hider.

If I was going to lynch either claimant now it would be Thor, because I think the claim itself, the circumstances surrounding it, and his subsequent absence all seem scummy. But I think we are in a much better position if we lynch elsewhere today, as we have the chance to gain more information about both Thor and Jason from the Night.

I'm not VLA anymore so if you want to push my lynch; I'd look forward to a case that doesn't relate to wicked and actually had some substance of this game so I can try to refute the case on me.

Well you hadn't commented much on the game since you came out of VLA so it didn't feel like you were.

And that feeds in to the essence of my case on Mala, which I did give once before. I've just re-read her ISO and I still see very little by way of substance; lots of vacillating on some players (notably Jason and Thor), some comments about things that 'bother' her, but no real pushes to get a lynch. Scum want to give reads (to look like their scum hunting) but don't have the same inherent desire to get a lynch, and they may even be hesitant to push as their reads will be put to the test. I thought her case on me had no real substance and the Iec thing is pretty weak considering she mentioned it twice beforehand as something she needed to think more about. She disagrees with my early-game read on SleepyKrew seeming town for his confidence, but provides no explanation about why saying this would make me scum.

And Mala, I think it's unreasonable of you to expect me to ignore Wicked in reading you, when that is our only previous game together, and you are also referencing Wicked in your read of me.

I have work in a few minutes so this will be short, but I will be back later after work, gym etc.

I have posted quite a bit on the last few days. I'm not yet up to the place I want to be at posting level wise, but it will come in time. I want to clear something up I didn't mean totally disregard Wicked as a whole, but I feel you are incorrectly placing a meta. You don't have firsthand knowledge of my town game and to a lesser extent to my scum game either. You're applying bad meta, end of story. I think you are using meta in a biased view rather than the way you should be using it. You are taking a year old (plus) scum game and trying to fabricate a scum read against me with it. You did this with Jason too, you took Team Mafia and you tried to fabricate that read against Jason with it. You're not taking the time out to see that you could be wrong, that my both my metas might have shifted in the last year or so.

I think you are playing a safe game. You have only pushed really

three

four people all game this game. You pushed Jason (things said above) and you voted Thor (which was Jason's counter) which essentially boils down to a safe vote etc. Then you voted Sthar who you had listed as a null-read in post 694 , but then voted him a few posts later in 726 because Patrick says to look for an alternative lynch. Afterwards you then started to push me after I clarified that I wasn't on VLA.

I also already said Fench that I was going to recheck Wicked because you were right I was looking at closer to endgame than I was early game when I was looking at your meta. Also I could swear I following another game of yours closely (not sure if it was a UK meet game), but w/e.

My read on you doesn't have a lot to do with Wicked, but a lot of things to do with your pushes here and the way you are playing here.

Also I don't really want to lynch either Thor or Jason, but I think Pie could be slightly townier due to the fact he was looking up mod meta. Although I have other things to talk to Pie about and will have to get to it later as I have work in about 5 mins~

The only other possible lynch is Trojan Horse which I'm kinda on a null because I haven't really remembered a lot of his posts and I'm surprised Tammy hasn't been more engaging with me about my alignment, which I find as odd. I'm used to Tammy and I going head to head in games so her not trying to sort me is meh =\

[Malakittens]

Sleepy - what is your read on Mala?

Don't have one. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Don't see why it would matter either.

I actually really like the case on Egg, but not going to change my vote until I clear my mind and get some feedback from teammates.

You're not trying either

;-;

[SleepyKrew]

I refuse to get any further into things I've explained it as best I can. No point beating a dead horse any further on this. Because it will just go around and around and is a waste of time explaining things further.

Nothing has been explained.

[Fenchurch]

I have posted quite a bit on the last few days. I'm not yet up to the place I want to be at posting level wise, but it will come in time. I want to clear something up I didn't mean totally disregard Wicked as a whole, but I feel you are incorrectly placing a meta. You don't have firsthand knowledge of my town game and to a lesser extent to my scum game either. You're applying bad meta, end of story. I think you are using meta in a biased view rather than the way you should be using it. You are taking a year old (plus) scum game and trying to fabricate a scum read against me with it. You did this with Jason too, you took Team Mafia and you tried to fabricate that read against Jason with it. You're not taking the time out to see that you could be wrong, that my both my metas might have shifted in the last year or so.

The points in my latest post don't actually relate to your Wicked meta though; they are things that I find inherently scummy. And can you explain in what way I 'tried to fabricate' a read on jason? Token speculation is perfectly valid as far as I'm concerned - it makes some players more likely to be scum than others - and I was sharing relevant information from jason's meta. That was hardly the basis for my scumread on him though, which I think is perfectly clear from the rest of the game.

Besides, Thor placed much more emphasis on the token thing than I did. Why weren't you bothered by that?

I think you are playing a safe game. You have only pushed really three four people all game this game. You pushed Jason (things said above) and you voted Thor (which was Jason's counter) which essentially boils down to a safe vote etc. Then you voted Sthar who you had listed as a null-read in post 694 , but then voted him a few posts later in 726 because Patrick says to look for an alternative lynch. Afterwards you then started to push me after I clarified that I wasn't on VLA.

I fail to see how pushing hard for the majority of Day 1 to get my main scumread lynched is a 'safe' game, or a scummy one. Nor how any of my subsequent pushes have been 'safe'. And I was the one looking for an alternative lynch after Thor's claim, I only mentioned Patrick because he suggested Mala/sthar who are our mutual scumreads. The other two on my team would have stuck with voting Thor for the bad claim.

Most of your quote is just summarising my votes. I still don't see any explanation from you about why any of my play makes you think I'm scum.

Fenchurch, the mala vote kind of sucks right now. We are in a deadline compromise situation and mala has no other votes if I'm not mistaken.

Mala is my current top scumread, and at the time of my vote there wasn't a clear competing wagon that wasn't on a PR-claim. I hadn't presented my full thoughts on Mala, and I hoped others of you would be persuaded once I did.

If that isn't the case, then it looks like my options are between Thor, who I am reading as scum but would like not to lynch because of the claim, and Trojan Horse, who I don't have a good read on. I will try and reread Trojan now, but can anyone summarise the case on him? The only remember as scummy was his weird switch to Delta because he 'couldn't decide between his top two scumreads'. Is there more than that?

[VysePresident]

Heya, guys! I'm running off to work right now, so let's keep this simple. Who do I vote? Why?