13p Normal [TM2015]

[pieguyn]

Limited Access until Sunday (4/5)

I should still post, but it'll be very sporadic. I may or may not be able to catch up tonight depending on the fact that I'm about to pass out any second now.

[pieguyn]

town: STD, SK, maybe Fenchurch, maybe Boon

scum: Mala, jason

don't like jason, primarily for reasons everyone else explained already. there's not much effort here to actually extract information from, or push any of his reads - there was no follow-up on the Micc push and the only really pointed question is him poking at SK for not explaining himself, which isn't intrinsically scummy.

getting a similar vibe from Mala. most of what she's posting comes off really neutral and I think her stance on Micc (50) is hypocritical - she calls him out for taking jabs but not interacting, when he for the most part was and she explicitly unvotes in that post (her vote was supposed to be on Micc) without making much of a hard push on him. I also think "you've never played with me before" (56) is a really easy throwaway excuse for scum to use when they want an easy way out of pressure.

Mara has a scum read on Thor. I don't particularly agree at this point, but I'll work it out later.

[pieguyn]

Re: vote thing read above. I was interacting with players, whereas, Micc wasn't IMO.

so you thought this:

STD, what is the point/goal/reason we do RVS in your opinion?

I'm a little put of by the fact that Dragons is excited to play the game but isnt willing to help move us into the actual game.

was something other than him directly interacting with STD? at the very least, I know you saw the second post bc you outright quoted it.

First off nice misrep Pie. I didn't have any "pressure" on me when I posted "You've never played with me before" I was trying to interact with STD in regards to a comment that he made about Micc and regarding SK-RVS. So I don't see how I was using that as an excuse out of anything. My comment about never playing with me before was I wasn't RVS to just chain RVS or because of his dice roll, but I RVS'd SK because he was a player I enjoyed talking too outside of ms. I tend to RVS in that mindset than random RVS etc.

OK, I reread and I misread that exchange. blame me being awake at 4 AM -.-

now with that out of the way, why do you think I'm supposedly misrep'ing you here? even if it was clear that's what happened (it's not), I don't understand what you think scum-me has to gain by doing this.

you also ignored the remainder of what I pointed out: that you're making a whole bunch of neutral sounding posts but not making any sort of hard push on anyone. you supposedly think Micc is scum. why haven't you done anything in your most recent posts to push him, question him, or try and convince people to vote him along with you? I'm seeing more weak pokes/jabs at a bunch of people, but no follow through on the Micc push.

[pieguyn]

Can you summerise why Mara has the scum read?

Mara thinks he's being more obtuse than normal and not *actually* doing anything legitimately town motivated. I agree with the point about being obtuse to some extent, but most of the stuff that made me think that was from page 1/2 and I could potentially see it as town trying to spin content out of thin air in order to move the game forward.

pieguyn, Tammy wants you to explain your Jason-scumread some more.

I'll go through it in detail later tonight. does Tammy have a town read on him?

[pieguyn]

vote: Mala

[pieguyn]

yeah, but I'm about 99% sure 21 at least did. 27 is also the kind of post I'd make to a scum read expecting the person in question to respond to it, hence interacting, but regardless.

do you disagree with my assessment of the rest of her play?

[pieguyn]

I already called out Micc for these jabs.

yes, and you haven't seen anything in his 2 or 3 posts since then worth questioning to solidify the read?

it's as I said before. I don't see any effort in your recent posts to question him or try to get anyone else to see what you're seeing. I generally think you could be a hell of a lot more proactive with regard to your read on him; it feels more like you're sitting on the sidelines trying to avoid making too many waves early in the game.

You're misrepping me saying I was trying to wiggle out of pressure when there was no pressure to wiggle out from. like I was trying to hide when in fact I wasn't, but interacting with STD over something that was said. It's a basic misrep. I didn't say anything about alignment, did I? Why are you trying to play the "Scum-me" has nothing to gain from this card so early here. I don't really have a huge read on you yet I'm just calling bullshit out when I see it.

the obvious implication from "misrep" - as well as the question at the end of this paragraph - would be that I'm scum. hence me asking what you think me-scum would have to gain by deliberately misrep'ing you over something relatively minor.

[pieguyn]

pieguyn, Tammy wants you to explain your Jason-scumread some more.

Spoiler:

49 consisted of a bunch of leading questions that don't really go anywhere and weak stances. all of these:

I don't really see any problem with SK not posting a vote in his first post. I don't think it is telling in any way of alignment.IF you are to reach, and I mean reallllllly reach it could be seen as a little cautious. But right now I do think Thor is maybe extremely trying to over justify things in his posts.

RVS is useful for reactions etc... but too much stock is being put on it right now.

came off more like he was trying to appear like he was being logical and consider all possibilities, without actually committing to a firm stance either way or doing anything to make a hard push on anyone. the question to TH:

I agree with you on this, but in the first few posts? Would it not be better to see down the line what he does instead of basing an entire case of him not posting a vote and just saying greetings?

felt similar in that actually doing this would be entirely counterproductive. it didn't strike me as the type of thing a town player would focus on; it felt, again, more like scum trying to appear to be as neutral and logical as possible.

@SK - What has picked your interest right now? I think this should be a better line of questioning as to trying to over-justify his non vote greetings post. Instead of going around in circles, is there anything that has stood out since your 'greetings' post that you would like to comment on?

I did think this question was kind of town. it is consistent with him later thinking that SK was posting a bunch of stuff to appear useful without actually being useful.

60 was similar. I didn't like the SK push - although it looks really really bad objectively, not responding to questions asking you for reads isn't smth that's intrinsically scum motivated by itself, which, again, made it seem like an easy throwaway question for scum to pick on. moving onto 84, I didn't like his switch onto SK there either, for the same reasons as before; in addition to the fact he's picking on something that isn't actually alignment indicative to come from scum, he flip flops on it *again* in that exact same post. I also didn't really like that after this he appears to forget all about the Micc read, which reinforced my idea that he was just going with the flow and taking neutral stances that didn't serve to make any waves in the game, but given what's going on with Mala I'm considering the possibility I'm being way too harsh about this.

I don't think you're scummy as such, but I do think you are over trying and drawing attention to yourself.

this was another statement I thought felt more like scum trying way too hard to be neutral and appear like they were being as logical as possible.

I thought the first question in 107 was a good thing to pick up on and I liked that he was among the first (afaict?) to pressure sthar. I liked 108 for similar reasons, in that he's again among the first to take an interest in Mara's Thor read after I posted it.

I didn't like 111 bc it again felt like an easy statement for scum to make, and there was no follow through behind it. he's just claiming SK is pretending to be useful without actually explaining why he thinks this. I would expect a town player would place more focus on showing everyone exactly *why* all of SK's posting is fake/attempting to be useful without actually being useful/etc. than he is doing here - the way he's going about this feels really shallow and reads more like scum trying to discredit the person pushing them by pushing back at them.

disclaimer, a lot of this is stuff other people had pointed out already and I'm not convinced some of it isn't playstyle (mostly with all of his posts sounding neutral). given Tammy knows how he plays better than me I'd like her opinion here.

[pieguyn]

I keep coming back to this, perhaps I believe in the sanctity of RVS, a happy place where you can come in and throw your vote down while you're getting your bearings in the game without fear of being harangued...okay I'm being overly dramatic, but I suppose I fail to see how one person RVSing is going to successfully draw us back into the RVS.

this was one of the things that initially pinged me and led me to think she was just taking easy stances. calling someone out for "RVS'ing" after RVS is supposedly over is a really easy thing to comment on as scum in order to look like you're scum hunting.

The problem is Micc did sheep Thor in the opening post. After talking with Micc I am confident he holds a similar stance so it makes more sense but at the time there was nothing really to indicate why he sheeped. At the time of her post, yeah, he asked me a question, then 27 which actually is rather open ended, but I'm not certain that I would say he was interacting enough for her accusation not to be justified. The unvote seems like a mistake.

fair enough. the unvote was a mistake; my original point was that, given a perfectly valid opportunity to vote Micc in turn pushing him further, she actively chose not to (while at the same time pushing him for not pushing his reads strongly enough).

This actually feels a bit more town to me.

I need to go to bed I will try to confirm when I wake.

while I don't think it makes her town, I agree her explanation here is fine.

[pieguyn]

Again he hasn't posted. I already commented on his said posts that I disagreed with. I mean I would be more proactive if he actually posted...? Your chainsaw defense is noted though Pie.

Town can misrep AND scum can misrep. If I see a misrep I point it out. I'm not really sure if you are town or scum at this point, but your general posts so far aren't the greatest. You are sitting here defending the shit out of Micc, while attacking his attacker.

:/

I think Micc had a fair amount of content in between the post where you pushed him and your later posts. however, I admit I may be being too harsh there.

my aim is moreso to attack your logic than defend Micc per se; I don't have a read on Micc. either way, I don't feel as strongly as I did before about you being scum. soooooooo

where are you currently at with Fen and Thor?

[pieguyn]

p-edit oh blarg that case. pie just jumped into the 'persons of interest' group for me.

what didn't you like about it?

@sthr - Pie and I have never had a game where one of us weren't scum. We've been partners even before. I tunnel her hard. Everytime. She can catch me out as scum like a [insert ridiculous comparison here]. This is just a page 6 read for me, so not too much merit to it, but it is worth paying attention to.

do you have any scum reads? I'm also somewhat surprised you'd be willing to say I wouldn't town read you as scum without so much as asking why I was town reading you first.

Oh pie, is Mara an expert on reading you online too? I may ask her to explain why you're town later.

I don't really know, we've only played one game online in the last year. I was a mason and she was in a hydra. /shrug

[pieguyn]

...could you ask her, please?

sure

[pieguyn]

/prodded while LA

the good news is I'm back today so I should be able to catch up later \o/

[pieguyn]

Yes. it's page 12. How are you possibly town reading all of those?

how is this any different from me having 4 town reads on page 5?

(I'm almost caught up, but saw this in the interim.)

[pieguyn]

OK

first off, the jason wagon is fucking terrible. I'm reading his recent posts as strong town. everything about them. from the way he's interacting with his scum reads, to the way he's getting pissed off at people pushing him without adequately backing it up, to the conviction in his pushes (notably Boon). I don't particularly agree with all of his conclusions, but all of what he's doing makes sense to me.

I think that a lot of the reasons he is being scum read in this game are either flat-out nonexistent (there are several votes that are either sheeping or just placeholder votes), or could be attributed to playstyle. there is a bit more to this - for example, the last time I played with him my hydra partner had meta'd him and came to the conclusion that strong posts are a part of his town meta - and I think that a lot of my reasons for scum reading him before could also be easily enough explained via playstyle.

I think that a large number of people who are active proponents of this wagon (THOR), or softly pushing/encouraging it from the sidelines without committing to a firm stance on jason either way (Mala, DW, sthar, maybe Micc/SK) are likely scum.

I have notsci telling me that this is Mala's town game. I still don't see it, but that's good enough for me to want her off the table for now.

I have mixed feelings about DW. the logic behind the STD read makes sense, even though I disagree with the conclusion. however, I thought his catchup wall looked more like he was just coming up with things to comment on as opposed to believing what he was saying - there are a few things that specifically made me think this, namely him saying he supports jason's pressure of me when jason had explicitly said he wasn't actually pressuring me and was just confused as to the meaning of my post.

I think in general, most of sthar's pushes have been rather weak. it feels like he's kind of poking at people here and there, but not actually doing anything that has town motivation. the push on Egg in particular came off forced and more like he was attempting to create noise in order to distract - namely the last line in 237 which feels more like an overjustification and not like something a town player would think.

I don't like anything Thor is doing. I'm not seeing a town thought process in his posts. I'm seeing him posting a bunch of stuff directed to STD/jason, but I don't get the impression he's making any effort to game solve with any of it. there is no proactive effort here to divine the alignment or form a read on whoever he's pushing, and there's no effort here to go out of his way to form reads or convince anyone else to see his POV on either of his scum reads. it feels more like he feels that he's expected to "respond" to his "scum reads", so that's where the majority of his focus while he is here lies. the way he's responding to people here feels almost robotic, really. I also think the jason push is rather shallow and not indicative of what jason is doing - he calls him out for a lack of scum hunting, without explaining why, specifically, he thinks this, and despite the fact that there is a fair amount of scum hunting in jason's ISO.

[pieguyn]

I'm going back now and responding to individual posts directed to me I skipped over/elaborating on these reads in more detail. for now:

VOTE: THOR

if anyone wants to know anything specific, ask.

[pieguyn]

This is what confuses me, if I am coming off as Logical and considering all circumstances, shouldn't that show as town not scum? Scum don't need to apply logic or consider possibilities, they know who is scum. It is town that needs to be considerate of all options and be logical about them?

yeah, the point was I thought you were making too much of an effort to *appear* like you were being logical in order to appear town, while most of the stuff you were saying was in actuality silly/unnecessary for town to say.

in case it's not obvious based on my most recent post, I don't think it holds water anymore

He didn't say much in regards to Thor and I hold Thor on a pedestal.
.
.
.
I'd be okay with a Jason vote too maybe. It seems like Jason is going after what I feel is more of a policy lynch rather than feeling someone is scum. It's giving me this horrible vibe. He's done it directly with SK, while ignoring Delta, and now he's doing it with Boonskiies. I'm having a hard time he's believing what he's actually saying IMO.

where are you at with the Thor read now?

do you still think this about jason after seeing his recent posts? I saw you posted you disliked his wagon but didn't find if you had an updated opinion based on play.

[pieguyn]

This is almost as bad as Fenchurch post I pointed out. Either I am lacking in hunting or pushing?

Sure?
Not sure what you're saying, really.

I am going after my scum reads, and who I think is scum. Not who I think is weakest.

Question: who do you think is the weakest player here and why?

The token thing was decided by the team. Not overly bothered either way.

Refusing to discuss it tends to strongly suggest that at least one of you went scum though.

If you will read back my reasons for voting boon are more than just playstyle.

Like which?

What exactly was 'over aware RVS'

What I voted you for initially - the unvote and immediate reactions thereafter.

this post is, put bluntly, completely pointless. none of these questions are particularly good, nor make that much sense for town pushing on a scum read to even ask.

the 2nd question. you're asking jason who he thinks the weakest player in the game is. what exactly is the point of this? how will jason answering *insert any answer here* tell you anything at all about his alignment? this doesn't have anything to do with what jason's angle actually is - which is that he is pushing people without regard to how weak or strong they are, not that he's going to magically avoid pushing a player just because he thinks they're weak.

re: 3rd question: why would scum jason need to be facetious about this? yes, it says one of the people may have went scum. OK. are you actually pushing this as a reason for thinking jason is scum? he would say that regardless of what his alignment in this game actually is.

I don't understand what the point of the 4th question is either. first off, I think it's pretty apparent jason has reasons for Boon being scum that aren't based on playstyle - ex. the part where he jumps on the jason wagon after declaring he had no scum reads before - but regardless, are you actually going to argue that jason providing good, non-playstyle reasons for Boon being scum here would in any way affect your read on him? this question isn't relevant to anything. you would not be nitpicking on details like this if you were town here. if you were town, you would actually give a shit about getting an answer from him on why he supposedly has "no hunting", or breaking apart the reasoning behind the Boon push and explaining *why* it's bad instead of just calling all of it "playstyle", as opposed to spending all your time commenting on random bullshit like this.

I don't see you actually asking jason about anything that's alignment-relevant here, or any of your other posts, really. none of what you're asking here adds anything to the game. they are questions designed to look like you're scum hunting, when you are, in fact, just sitting around doing fuck all. all I'm getting from this is that you're creating noise that distracts and hoping the jason lynch goes through without anyone noticing your reasoning for him being scum is weak at best.

and yes, before anyone asks, I am more than aware of Thor's reputation for writing massive walls and getting into debates over specifics. I think Thor is scum specifically because of *what* he is asking about here.

It's a few little things, really, but the concise description would be; overaware RVS, paired with lack of hunting, paired with sudden push on whom I perceive as the weakest player available to push in the game, paired with no actual argument for that case beyond playstyle, paired with the token thing.

this is essentially a tl;dr of your jason read.

first off, you're still calling jason scum for something he did in RVS on page fucking ......... 19? and there isn't a compelling reason it couldn't have been awkward-town instead of awkward-scum, either.

second off, this, again, betrays a contradictory mindset in your posts. these are your reasons for scum reading him. so,

WHY HAVE NONE OF THE QUESTIONS YOU'VE ASKED HIM THIS GAME HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH ANY OF THESE THINGS?

the only time I saw a question that was actually relevant here was the one about Boon in the previous post, but you didn't go out of your way to ask it (instead asking it in response to jason directly calling you on it) and still have not explained specifically *why* you actually think jason's Boon push is bad.

all the questions you're asking here are out of place for someone who supposedly believes their reasons for thinking someone is scum. I would expect a town player to spend more effort specifically breaking down jason's posts here and asking questions that are directly relevant to what jason is actually doing, as opposed to this.

the STD push is more of the same. Thor is asking a bunch of questions that don't serve to accomplish anything or are otherwise entirely irrelevant, without doing anything that actually has town motivation. his STD read at the end of all this is - as far as I can tell, because it's fucking impossible to tell exactly what he thinks is scummy here - essentially still that STD is scum because his push didn't actually point out anything scum indicative and was entirely playstyle, but again, he doesn't elaborate on specifically *why* STD's push is bad and most of the questions he asks read more like he's just commenting on stuff for the sake of it. ex, in 381 he starts going on a tangent on STD's DW read and it's tedious to read/follow because it's not relevant to anything, nor does it have anything to do with what the reasoning behind his read on STD actually is.

I could keep breaking down Thor's posts and explaining why the rest of his posts are more of the same, but I think this is a pretty good indication of why I'm at where I'm at with him and it'd be pretty pointless for me to just repeat the same thing over and over.

[pieguyn]

re: sthar

Lookit that. I got home and it's technically before midnight.

142 was a weak post. most of the questions here are meh, and it feels like he's primarily just interjecting himself here and there and wanting to look like he's accomplishing things, without actually making any kind of hard push on anyone.

Really? I have given exactly one stance and given the other expressed opinions it was far from obvious. I have not given an opinion on delta lurking. I did not ask fen for a new reads list, that is not what 'expound' means.

this post struck me as awkward because it felt more like scum attempting to posture/discredit, namely the last line. I don't think a town player would be so focused on specifics - what "expound" means - when Egg's general point was that sthar asking Fen for elaboration on reads was an easy stance to take regardless.

the other thing I didn't like is that there was really no follow-up on anything he asked in 142 (namely the Boon and Fen questions, the others are fine as they hadn't posted up until then), which makes me continue thinking that was just him asking questions for the sake of looking like he was busy as opposed to actively believing what he was saying. I don't think he actually cared about getting answers to the questions he asked there.

the push on Egg was eh; I didn't agree with his arguments, but it didn't come off as scum indicative. what I didn't like was that a lot of it felt more like he was trying to posture/discredit than someone actually believing what they were saying, namely these 2 posts:

Wrt Thor/STD, if you needed more explanation, you could have asked. A laconic post does not indicate a lack of justification, especially when I also explicitly indicated that I wanted to be asleep. As it is, I think your hasty conclusion indicates that you're fitting evidence to your suspicion, and not the other way around. Same with the factual inaccuracies that you insist are somehow relevant and the incorrect plural in your reasoning.

He's not looking for scum, he's looking for an easy case to push and he's trying to scare me off scumhunting.

I didn't really think the first quote was justified given the arguments they were pushing on each other. comments like that are fine sometimes, but in this particular instance it felt out of place given Egg had only made like 1 or 2 posts pushing him - usually when town posts smth like this it's in response to being constantly pushed for what they perceive as bad arguments, and not a first-instinct snap-reaction in response to one post like we're seeing here. it makes more sense as scum posturing.

the second one in particular struck me as very unnatural for a town player to think - the alternative here is that he's town and somehow believes he's that much of a special snowflake that Egg (someone he claims has never played with him before) would actually be scared enough of him to not be able to handle a few posts where sthar pressures him. seriously? I think the more likely explanation is, again, that he trying to posture here by giving off the impression that he's onto something.

the other issue I really had is that his only strong scum read - Egg - came directly as a result of Egg pushing him, but this in itself isn't telling. I'd like to see what his updated reads/thoughts on the game are.

[pieguyn]

What do people think about my phat case on STD?

I think STD's read on you is reasonable - I could easily enough see someone thinking there was scum motivation in the way you were pushing him. when I first read through your posts, I got the impression you were feigning confidence/conviction in order to get town read and just searching for easy material to comment on, for pretty much the same reason (you not explaining in-depth why you actually thought he was scum). so I don't have a problem with him calling you out for basically the same posts and for a similar reason.

I also don't think someone going from null to scum based on what they perceive as a bad push is alignment indicative. it's a player looking (or pretending to look) at why someone is making a push on them and deciding they weren't happy with it, which is something I do all the time. I'm not sure why you find this scummy.

I don't agree with the way he started arguing semantics after you elaborated in detail, but I don't think this is scummy either. some people just argue like that for whatever reason, especially if they think someone is scum a priori.

I'm wondering which other reads besides you/Thor you think he's fabricating.

Thor push feels decent, but thats mostly me looking at the Jason wagon and thinking this is how scum Thor pushes mislynches and knowing that i always find myself on scum-Thor lead mislynches. Tbh i barely even skimmed through most of pie's posts at the end because i wanted to get to writting instead of reading.

:>

in your experience with scum-Thor, have you seen him do the "create a bunch of noise to distract" strategy before? the tl;dr of my read is that all of the questions/pushes he's making on people are designed to look useful, but are not actually relevant to anything and have nothing to do with the stated reasoning for his reads.

[pieguyn]

Nacho agree with me that your case is playstyle based.

my internet is down and I'm posting this at a Starbucks. it might take me a bit to respond to your other post, but one thing really quick. can you tell Nacho to look through jason's ISO again, in particular these posts:

Spoiler:

Alright, I get to finally legitimately town read Pie for once. I don't think she would have put me as possible town as scum. Ever.

Unvote

Are you HONESTLY and legit reading someone as town, because she thinks you are town, not scum?

jesus....

@jason- why did you comment on my activity, but not delta's?

A mistake, I should have. Since he had not posted, I never even took notice of him.

came off more like he was trying to appear like he was being logical and consider all possibilities, without actually committing to a firm stance either way or doing anything to make a hard push on anyone. the question to TH:

This is what confuses me, if I am coming off as Logical and considering all circumstances, shouldn't that show as town not scum? Scum don't need to apply logic or consider possibilities, they know who is scum. It is town that needs to be considerate of all options and be logical about them?

More later, I am just home and going to make some stew

Alright, the more I think about 139, the more I call bullshit.

VOTE: Boonskiies

Jason, are you concluding that you are town reading someone based off of 1 post said in the first 3 pages of the game?

The Irony in this post is delightful, given you are town reading someone based on one post of them saying they think you are not scum

Jason, I think you are misrepping Pie's stance. But, again, I'll let him answer first.

It's not Pis stance I am questioning, it is Boonskii's read of Pi I am wary of.

Again, hi. Jason...My name is Boonskiies. I'm known to hammer my biggest town read on occasion without letting them claim in a moment's notice. Mainly when I'm town! Me OMGUS'ing is nothing.

Would you have voted me, if I had not brought up I think you are scum??

If so, why had you already not voted me?

Your post about 'slipping through the cracks' seemed like you thought I was scum, but voted elsewhere. Why?

Why would you hammer your strongest town reads?

Also, as for my top scum read, it's obviously Jason. Even before he went and started being ignorant and making flawed cases. This just confirms it even more for me. He's posting things that are ridiculous towards me. Like my RVS when I was confused about why people were unvoting everything? COME ON! I'm the Boonskiies here! Look me up. I'm the craziest person out here. Like I always say...usually it's scum who isn't familiar with me who automatically pushes towards me.


VOTE: Jason

I call complete and utter bullshit on this, you made NO mention of me being scum or showed any intention to vote me until I started looking into your behaviour. The only slight post you made on it was me 'slipping through the cracks' which you have yet to follow up on as to why you felt I was slipping through the cracks, without committing to a vote until after I voted you.

Your case is jack shit bollocks and full of OMGUS. In fact, I would go as far as saying you have nothing other than I think you are scum, and therefore you are voting me.

and then get back to me? I know there's no fucking way in hell town Nacho just writes all this off as "lol playstyle", although maybe I'm being too harsh given he is not actually in this game.

[pieguyn]

You think he's actually poking anyone? I have him as active lurk.

I don't think he's legitimately pushing anyone, I think he's just asking filler questions in order to look like he trying to poke at people without actually doing so. it looks like we agree here, but are just thinking about it in different terms.

are you open to lynching sthar today?

He is clearly not being facetious about this - it was a choice of his team.
By extension logic, why refuse to claim town tokens? It does make a *lot* of sense to refuse to discuss tokens to protect scum token use - ergo, I submit this was a scummy action.
Also - it isn't and never was a question. I was stating a belief.

the obvious conclusion here is that his team has a mutual agreement to not discuss how they spent their tokens in *any* of their games. jason would respect this regardless of what his alignment in *this particular* game is.

which is why I think you actually using this as a reason for thinking he's scum is a load of shit

Second off - there isn't actually a rule that says all questions have to directly relate to tells. You ask questions to generate tells, sometimes you question tells, but you do not, by definition, question every tell you have.

OK

so my issue with this is, it doesn't look like you're actually factoring his responses to the questions you're asking into your read on him. nothing you're doing gives any indication that you have ever considered the possibility that jason is anything but scum - it feels like you're just going through the motions with all the questions you're asking and continuing to push him as scum regardless of what he answers.

the fact that none of the questions you asked had anything to do with your original reason for scum reading him supports this. it doesn't feel like you're doing anything to actually confirm or deny your read on him here. I agree asking questions to generate tells is a valid strategy; my issue with your play lies in the fact that you're *appearing* like you're doing this, while not doing actually so.

Like what...specifically?
Just the above? Or something else?

most of your posts, really

this is your stated reasoning for jason being scum:

It's a few little things, really, but the concise description would be; overaware RVS, paired with lack of hunting, paired with sudden push on whom I perceive as the weakest player available to push in the game, paired with no actual argument for that case beyond playstyle, paired with the token thing.

most of the questions you're asking him are in response to posts he made, but they don't have anything to do with your reasoning here for him being scum. taking the questions from your recent posts, you're asking him about whether he believes RVS, who he thinks the weakest player in the game is, pushing him for not answering how they used their tokens, why he thinks you should be looking at alternate options besides him, etc. (the post I quoted was only one example of this.)

I don't really have a problem with this. what I have a problem with is the fact that you have not asked him anything along the lines of:

- "why is Boon doing *insert action here* scummy, as opposed to playstyle?" (re: Boon case being playstyle - what you're doing is just assuming he's scum for pushing something you think is playstyle, without making any effort to understand what his thought process behind it is)
- "who are your other scum reads besides me?" (re: you not thinking he's scum hunting)

it's as I said. you're asking him a lot of things about minor points, but you are completely failing at engaging with him over the major, relevant points that have primarily been making you think he was scum this whole time. this is why I think you're just asking questions in order to look busy here.

the other problem I have is that, as I said before, I don't really see you taking in his answers and reevaluating. I have, to this point, seen absolutely 0 indication that you have seen anything he's said and thought he was less likely to be scum as a result of it. this isn't particularly scummy, but it is consistent with what I usually expect scum to do when attempting to outargue someone.

I think that addresses most of the points. if I missed something in particular you wanted me to answer let me know

[pieguyn]

Eh, let's see what Jason flips and then we can debate that. Nacho agrees with you though, so, meh.

I also don't buy that, if your strategy here was to sort him via pushing on him, that you'd make a post like this when you did. you pretty obviously are convinced he's scum at this point, while as I was saying in the last paragraph of the last post still haven't directly engaged him over what makes you think he's scum. this is why I don't think you're actually trying to sort him here

[pieguyn]

i don't know why people think jason's posts on this/the previous page come from scum

i don't know why people think Thor cherry picking 2 posts where jason calls Boon terrible, while ignoring posts like 160/162 and 222 which have nothing to do with playstyle, comes from town

[pieguyn]

Agh, pie...I really don't want to read your posts...I'll put some time away tomorrow to read the last page.

:>

2 down, 10 to go

[pieguyn]

That's nonsensical. If egg had pushed me more or pressured me or done literally anything in the way of trying to figure me out, it WOULD NOT indicate that he was grasping to fit his evidence to his case, given that the evidence
was 'you didn't justify your page 6 town read at midnight in your first game-relevant post.'

so tell me this:

you make a post giving some initial thoughts, not elaborating in detail because you were busy/wanted to sleep. Egg notices you not elaborating on any of your reads, and draws a conclusion from it (that you were just going with the flow instead of scum hunting).

...

what exactly is wrong here? you were saying this angle is disingenuous and that he was coming to a "hasty conclusion". so, for what reason does town-Egg have to necessarily draw a different conclusion from it?

it's a player noticing someone not giving any thoughts on the game and thinking there was something off about it. there is nothing wrong here. your angle essentially amounted to Egg being scum because he came out the gate pushing you immediately instead of giving you space. and yes, you're claiming it's because of your real-life situation - but there is no reason town-Egg would even be aware of that, let alone keep it in mind when pushing you if it was aware of it - if someone thinks someone is scum, they don't have any reason to hold back over it.

on top of that, this is all entirely discounting the fact that what you're saying isn't actually what Egg's case on you was. Egg's "evidence" was more than just you not explaining reads - it was based around the stances you took in general and the questions you asked.

I'm rereading the interactions between you two in detail atm to make sure I'm not missing something here, and nothing I'm finding is changing my opinion. I can break it down in depth sometime later if you want, but in short, your push here comes off misguided at best and completely contrived at worst.

Oooh dismissive strawman. You can take that shit right back to wherever you bought it. Actually, it is just good scumplay to foster apathy and inactivity in the town. By attacking my immediate entrance into the game and painting my attempts to figure people out as scummy, Egg puts me on the defensive. I'll have trouble engaging if I'm spending time defending my first impressions, it makes getting into the game an uphill battle, and since I wind up spending time not generating game content it might make me into a viable mislynch.

this at least makes some sense, but I don't find it compelling because it's not the type of thing I'd ever do as scum. the obvious counter to it is to not bother wasting all your time responding to said accusations and continue scum hunting normally without regard to their read on you.

I still think the tone of your post read more like scum posturing (although I can't exactly expect you to defend this, so meh). I'm also wondering why your instinct here was to call this a strongman - what do you think me-scum has to gain by strawman'ing you here when it'd be obvious the angle I'm pushing is wrong after you explained it? the more likely scenario is that I misinterpreted your post, regardless of alignment.

[pieguyn]

also I'm wondering why you're pushing this:

It was super hedgy. I came out of it with no clear feeling how much you suspect jason. And outsourcing reads to people outside the thread seems valuable to scum.

as a reason for me being scum, while later saying you might outsource your Thor read.

if you have the time, I'd also appreciate gun-to-the-head reads on jason and Thor (yes, you said you might defer it to someone else, but I'm interested in what *you* specifically are thinking here).

[pieguyn]

oh, and re: this:

I find it interesting that pie is willing to collaborate with what is ostensibly her biggest scumread to try lynching me. Also that I jumped into her suspicions after pushing egg while her case seems to be 'don't like the case on egg.'

hint: that's not what I'm trying to do there. I posted it for a different reason but I can't explain it at this point. try to think about alternate motivations for asking someone their read on a player.

[pieguyn]

Do you agree with jason that Boon seems scummy for the reasons given in these posts? Presumably not, because you had Boon as town shortly after that in #104.

I look sideways at Boon's jason vote every time I see it. I don't like the fact that he waited until he was prompted for a scum read to act on it; it felt like he was coming up with it after the fact. however, I'm not sure in his case this is necessarily coming from scum - if I squint, I could see it coming from town who just wasn't thinking about it, especially for someone like Boon who's generally plays in an erratic way.

I thought Boon's explanation for his town read on me was fine enough, but I don't have a problem with jason calling him out on it. it essentially amounts to whether you believe Boon's reasoning or not.

(also 104 was before that series of posts; Boon voting jason in the way he did knocked him back down to null and I haven't read him either way since then)

[pieguyn]

also I realized I forgot to respond to this

I don't see my name here, even though I've been pushing a jason-lynch for a while now. Is that because you don't think I'm scum because of it, or did you just miss me off the list?

I haven't had a problem with your push on him, plus I think you're town for other reasons. (iirc I left TH off the list as well for the same reason.) I'd go back and look through it again if jason ends up flipping town at some point and most of the other people pushing jason end up flipping town/otherwise having reason to think they were town later.

I hope you'll understand if I don't put too much faith in notsci, as this was my last experience of him town-reading Mala.

Personally, I find Mala's play kinda wishy-washy, and that's why she's still in my possible-scum pile. I don't see that she's taken a strong stance on anyone yet or made especially incisive observations.

that's basically where I'm at with Mala as well

notsci and Mala are BFFs outside of mafia and that game was over a year ago, so I have a bit more faith in his ability to catch her. I'm not ruling her out as scum bc of it, just saying I'd rather lynch elsewhere for the time being unless I have compelling reason not to

[pieguyn]

also I don't think jason actually ignored Boon pointing out town games where he self-meta'd. that was 262 (I think?) and I don't see him pushing this after that post. I'm not sure him not doing as much to further the Boon case is indicative either - to be fair, he's been occupied with this whole shitstorm with Thor and he did have one post (422) directed towards Boon.

might go through and explain in detail what I find town about him later, when it's not 4 AM

[pieguyn]

that was 262

241

looking back it there was one post where jason keeps pushing the self-meta angle after this, but meh. he probably just didn't read much into it

[pieguyn]

pdodge will post tomorrow

[pieguyn]

I don't understand why a townie wouldn't just admit to being wrong or at least partially admit to being partially wrong.

BIG HINT:

this is wrong. in jason's case, this is happening because he feels strongly that Boon is scum, he can't get anyone to see what he's seeing, and he's indignated that he's being pushed for what he perceives as a shit reason and refuses to give up on his angle for Boon being scum as a result of that.

stuff like this, when done in the way jason is doing it here, I've found to be way more a sign of town indignation than anything scum-motivated. I think a lot of the arguments put forth for jason scum have essentially amounted to this and a lot of it just isn't compelling.

quick question, what exactly does scum jason have to gain by being persistent about the Boon read here? he has basically no one following him. do you think scum jason is incapable of feigning reevaluation when presented with evidence that suggests his argument is wrong?

(btw, protip: Nacho supposedly not realizing this is a large part of why I think Thor, as well as everyone else in that slot, is just BS'ing here. I am about 99% sure town Nacho should not be ignoring this - the only explanation, which I do find plausible so I want to hear an explanation first, is that he isn't engaged with this game and so hasn't read enough in depth.

@THOR:

do you have any update in response to 454?)

I'll respond to other stuff and elaborate in more detail on why I find jason town later, I'm posting this from a school library.

[pieguyn]

oh, Cheetory asked for my read on Boon. I currently have him as null, but I haven't put much effort into reading him in-depth. I don't find the wagon on him particularly compelling at this point, either.

[pieguyn]

I don't really have a problem with him town reading Boon (and as I said, I haven't found most of the current scum reads on him compelling). him not town reading jason, on the other hand, is cause for concern because jason's reaction to being pushed was town as shit, for reasons he, specifically, would pick up on if his slot was town here and he was reading the game, and it looks like he's just ignoring it and pushing him as scum anyway.

the latter part of the last sentence is why I'm poking you over this instead of coming out full force over it, since I'm fairly busy myself and I know his RL is busy and I can understand if he just hasn't had any time to give any thoughts about the game - which appears to be the case. so, meh. I wanna see Nacho's response here.

[pieguyn]

so Nacho has a town read on jason?

I was taking him agreeing with you saying his case on playstyle to mean he agreed with your scum read on him; that, and you appear to be factoring your team's reads into account already (or at least the town read on me).

[pieguyn]

I still disagree the case is playstyle based - I'm half occupied with a HW assignment so I can't go through and explain it right at this second but I didn't think 160/162 were playstyle and you agreed the other post I brought up wasn't playstyle, among some other things. /shrug

Nacho *didn't* have any kind of opinion on jason's reactions to you pushing him after that post was made? it's the exact same thing as the reaction to Boon he supposedly town read him for, but it doesn't look like he's factoring it in (his current approach leaving jason open as a potential scum read instead if he continues acting the way he's currently acting).

[pieguyn]

I did agree that the OMGUS thing could be squinted at and called...well, a case based on OMGUS as scummy - but, frankly, i don't think OMGUS is that great to hinge a case on, and if that's your best example of 'not playstyle' then I think you and I have *MASSIVELY* different bars to leap over to make a case not playstyle based.

it's not, but saying that his case is solely based on OMGUS is in itself an oversimplification. it was the *way* Boon did it, in no small part the timing of it and the fact that he did not make any mention of jason being scum before he was prompted about it, that was scummy.

there are some other things that I didn't think were playstyle. I'll explain it in-depth once I finish working on HW -.-

I don't follow this question, and it appears to be asking me to answer a value call for a read Nacho offered - all I can tell you is what Nacho offered to me.
I don't particularly like either read, myself, and have been ignoring both, if that makes you happy.

essentially, what I'm saying is that Nacho's read on jason is not what it should be.

1. he town reads jason based on conviction from Boon push. OK.
2. jason continues making strong town posts in reaction to being pushed after Nacho's initial stated read.
3. Nacho responds by calling jason less strongly town than before for other reasons.
4. Nacho does not continue town reading jason in the same way he was before, despite jason exhibiting the same behavior.

there's a slight disconnect here. I would expect that Nacho should be treating jason as strong town right now, not as ambivalent could-go-either way town.

yes, it's not that much of a disconnect, but it's enough to set off alarm bells. why? I think the most compelling explanation for this is that if Nacho has strong town on jason, he would be actively defending him, or otherwise attempting to definitively override your read on him such that you'd stop trying to lynch him over it. however, as it currently stands, this kind of defense that I would expect from him isn't here. this makes me think that what we're seeing here is you working to lynch jason, while Nacho kind-of-sort-of sits on the sidelines going "jason might be town" so that your slot looks slightly better if jason gets lynched, as opposed to putting any effort into it (which would result in him not being lynched).

it's the same thing you 2 have done as scum before in a game, except the other way around: you lead, while Nacho offers reads that are the opposite of yours, and neither of you have to take any responsibility for it because Nacho isn't actively engaged in the game.

essentially, what I'm saying is Nacho should be thinking there is no way jason is scum here, but he's not. the other thing (although minor) is that I'd expect at least one of you to take some interest in Tammy's town read on him, but I haven't seen that from either of you yet.

[pieguyn]

basically, the way jason reacted practically makes him almost as conftown as an IC my eyes. it should have for Nacho as well, but it didn't. this is where my issue lies.

[pieguyn]

OMGUS is not a case, regardless, and even if it is it fails to make the rest of the case non-playstyle and a negative reaction to a playstyle based case doesn't feel weird to me regardless.

you continue to handwave jason's angle as "OMGUS" when there is a lot more to it than that.

it's as I said. there is a distinction between OMGUS'ing someone, and objectively analyzing a push and finding issues with it. I doubt jason would have pushed Boon over it so strongly if he had stated jason was scum before he was actually prompted for a scum read, nor if he had any reasons for jason being scum that were particularly good.

Nacho is trying to override my read I flat out said as much - do you seriously think he has the level of sway and control to do so though? You seem to be basing the issue on the fact Nacho isn't controlling me.

if someone on my team has an exceedingly strong read on someone, especially a town read, then I would absolutely make use of it, yes. see: me thinking Mala might be scum but notsci being relatively sure she's town (even discounting RL factors).

my issue is that I would have expected a similar dynamic here - but even discounting factors such as how your team is playing it, it amounts to Nacho missing something I would have expected him to see if he was town. but, meh. we're not really getting anywhere with this so I'll just wait for what Nacho says

[pieguyn]

@pie- wanna play a question game? You ask me one, I ask you one, repeat until we're satisfied. No agenda, no baiting, just help me figure out where you're coming from.

sure, but I still haven't read the last few pages in detail so I probably won't have anything specific if it has to do with the last few pages

[pieguyn]

it can be useful, except you have to do it right or it doesn't work

most of the time you can't just say stuff like "xxx posts more as town" - you should always form reads based off motivation. the correct kind of meta is when you see a body of evidence and realize that someone usually does stuff with the same/similar motivation in most of their games. you still read them based on motivation, but you know what to look for as town vs. scum. obviously you have to take other factors into account and figure out how/if what they're doing fits in with the kind of stuff they usually do, and see how it makes sense, and it's a bit more complicated when someone is aware of their meta since you have to think about if they're faking it.

sometimes someone will play entirely off what you've seen of them before. in that case you might as well just try to read them normally (since if it means anything, you should be able to figure it out anyway).

it's also useful if you're reading someone and you need to figure out if a certain aspect of their play is just playstyle-based or if it actually means something. usually if I ever cold-meta someone, that's why I'm doing it.

I can't really think of anything to ask since most of the standing questions I have for you are about game-related content (and I haven't had much of a chance to go back and respond to your posts in-depth). do you generally consider attempting to withhold suspicion of, and work with, scum reads as town a valid strategy?

p-edit: @sthar

[pieguyn]

don't lynch jason until I'm able to catch up and elaborate in detail on why I find him town. I'm considering any hammer on him at this point to be a scum claim, and I recommend everyone else do the same.

the other problem I'm having is that I think both Thor and sthar are scum, but I don't think they make sense as scum together

[pieguyn]

I am a town bodyguard.

shit, I didn't even see this.

WE DO NOT LYNCH JASON TODAY.

his role is a death sentence if scum. if jason happens to be alive on D4, then we can reconsider it, but this is one of those roles that naturally works itself out either way.

(also I really wish people wouldn't use bodyguards in games because it's a shit role)

[pieguyn]

I'm not spoilering this because (in my opinion) you all are missing a lot of obvious shit here, and I still don't understand how this wagon is still going. plus, I'm keeping track of how many people get tired of reading my walls in this game and is my goal to get 12/12, which we all know is the most important reason.

Also, as for my top scum read, it's obviously Jason. Even before he went and started being ignorant and making flawed cases. This just confirms it even more for me. He's posting things that are ridiculous towards me. Like my RVS when I was confused about why people were unvoting everything? COME ON! I'm the Boonskiies here! Look me up. I'm the craziest person out here. Like I always say...usually it's scum who isn't familiar with me who automatically pushes towards me.


VOTE: Jason

I call complete and utter bullshit on this, you made NO mention of me being scum or showed any intention to vote me until I started looking into your behaviour. The only slight post you made on it was me 'slipping through the cracks' which you have yet to follow up on as to why you felt I was slipping through the cracks, without committing to a vote until after I voted you.

Your case is jack shit bollocks and full of OMGUS. In fact, I would go as far as saying you have nothing other than I think you are scum, and therefore you are voting me.

this angle continues to be good, and I don't know why people (THOR) are attempting to write this off as "playstyle" when it quite obviously is not.

the logic here is sound. Boon shouldn't have voted in the way that he did if he actually had jason as a scum read. there were other things that made me think Boon's post there came off as forced, ex. him saying "obviously" when he made no mention of jason being scum before this nor commented on any of the reasons for jason being scum - but either way, you usually don't wait until prompted to act on your scum reads. the only reason I would not be writing this off as a scum tell is that it's Boon and I can see him playing in a chaotic enough way to just not think about it.

Spoiler:

Also they say they think I'm playing towards my scum meta

yet are bringing up me using self meta, which is a very town meta thing I do

. My team doesn't agree with me voting Jason. I like causing commotion for the sake of reactions. I believe that should be obvious at this point.

Unvote

BINGO DING DING DING WE HAVE A SCUMMER

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

Lots of self meta here, from scum Boon.

And lots of the 'this is what I do as town not scum'

And lookie here from that game

It's self meta. Like how I say that I hammer people at L-1 on Day 1 without much resent when I'm town

And look at this.. exactly the same

Again, hi. Jason...My name is Boonskiies. I'm known to hammer my biggest town read on occasion without letting them claim in a moment's notice. Mainly when I'm town! Me OMGUS'ing is nothing.

Same exact argument used as scum

Eat the fucking noose ASAP. This guy is scum. 100%

Well, not exact same, but very similar. This guy is scum. Eat the noose ASAP. Boasting about how he will hammer town in scum game, and boasting about it here.

thats how I see it as exact same (in scum meta boon)

you're scum, eat noose

Why would I ever say that as scum? Damn...

jesus tap dancing crust....

add MIFOM to self meta and OMGUS

I liked everything about this exchange. I like the conviction here, and I like the excitement at him finding what he perceives as a 100% tell for Boon being scum.

the second quote in particular is also relevant for a reason I will get into later.

Trojan - earlier you mentioned that Tammy expected to be able to get a good read on jason. Has she read the game recently, and if so, what are her current thoughts?

She's following the game. She's still trying to figure Jason out.

It's weird you are still trying to work me out, and the fact you are hanging on for Tammy's opinion seems like you are stalling not wanting to say anything incase it derails the lynch, also if Tammy has experience with me, I (and this is backed up by Zach) would expect her to have something already this deep into the game or even something to say at least.

I brought up the point earlier of no viable counter wagon (at the time) It would heavily suggest 1) scum is already on it or 2) they are happy to just sit back and relax without anyone having to provide alternative options as to them, and others it would seem the lynch is a cert and nothing else has to be done.

I liked this post a lot, more or less for one basic reason. Tammy is the relevant person who probably has the most experience with and can be trusted the most to read jason, compared to anyone else here. this post thus has the effect of isolating jason from the one person (and by extension, the one slot) who could probably be trusted to read him no matter what.

if it's coming from scum, it's a very unnatural move since it would essentially shoot down any potential chance of Tammy blowing the whistle and telling everyone to get off him - you could argue that this wouldn't necessarily be the case, but I think it would make it at the least more likely and so this maneuver feels awkward from scum. on the other hand, it makes more sense as town - it's a town player expecting the person who knows him the best to read him correctly and being paranoid that they appear to be leaving him open as a lynch candidate.

Nacho agree with me that your case is playstyle based.
No, he didn't sudden speed read something I saw in a preview post - that doesn't prevent him from having assessed your case though.
You are literally quoting me playstyle based attacks and acting like they are somehow not. Are you serious that comments along the lines of "he's so terrible" somehow are *not* playstyle based? Because that's what you're handing me.

If you believe any of the crap you are spewing, you're deluded. But then again your 'case' on me is pretty deluded too, so I would expect that from you. You're so hard on for my lynch you will distort anything to fit your deluded 'case'

I've quoted everything I have said on Boon, and if it took you less than 2 mins to respond, I call bullshit you even bothered to read it.

My posts against him are based on things he has done in game, most are quoted and responded to.

I never actually said he is terrible

...

And I challenge you to show me exactly where I said those words.

Go on, I bet you can not find them. Show me where I said he is terrible, because this is yet more bullshit you are throwing to buff your 'case'

this in particular I liked bc it takes a lot of balls to pull off the "I CHALLENGE YOU TO DO THIS" as scum. it reminds me of the kinds of posts I used to make as town a lot.

Again so you have meta on Boon doing what he does this as both alignments, but you are still trying to push a policy lynch via saying he's a liability. I have seen him just hammer people at will AND BE TOWN. I have seen him self-meta AND BE TOWN. So him doing everything above is null.

In then end you are trying to chalk up a null-read as a policy lynch, end of story.

Rubbish. It is not a policy lynch.

The Meta is him

boasting as scum about doing it, he did it as scum in Pokemon, he did it here.

The action of hammering town

is not the meta issue

, its the boasting about doing so is the meta issue. Can you show me examples of him posting 'I hammer town reads' when he is town in a game? If so I will retract my comments on it. But right now, he boasted about it as scum in Pokemon, and has boasted here about it too. It is a match to scum boon unless you can show me otherwise him posting about hammering town reads when he is town (Note - not the action of hammering but the boasting about doing so like he has here and in pokemon)

My comments about him being a liability were because I expected to wake up to be lynched. Can't quite remember now why though I thought I was waking up to noose. IF Boon is town (which I highly doubt) that is someone you do not want around towards end game as he could cost town. That is the point I was making there

Understand now?

Good, I am not going around in circles again on this.

One last time

The meta is him boasting as scum about doing it. NOT the action of doing it as town.

everyone who is pushing that jason is scum for pushing a weak meta case should look at this.

if you go back through his ISO and cross reference this, what he is saying here is consistent. he is not pushing that Boon is scum for self-meta'ing. he is pushing that Boon is scum for explicitly *boasting about* his self-meta of hammering town reads and that this is not something he has done as town.

now, this obviously isn't a town tell. it makes as much sense coming from either town or scum. the reason I think this makes him town is that, when you look at it from this POV, his frustration and indignation the entire game makes a lot more sense. it's a town player who is annoyed at having to constantly repeat what he's saying, while not realizing what he's saying isn't actually clear.

I don't give a shit if you think "frustration at being misinterpreted isn't alignment indicative". when done to the extent here, it is. there's a difference between feigning frustration at a few posts and being pissed off at having to content with a wagon on you for what you perceive as shit reasons throughout the entire game. this situation falls into the latter.

Spoiler:

Again so you have meta on Boon doing what he does this as both alignments, but you are still trying to push a policy lynch via saying he's a liability. I have seen him just hammer people at will AND BE TOWN. I have seen him self-meta AND BE TOWN. So him doing everything above is null.

In then end you are trying to chalk up a null-read as a policy lynch, end of story.

Rubbish. It is not a policy lynch.

The Meta is him

boasting as scum about doing it, he did it as scum in Pokemon, he did it here.

The action of hammering town

is not the meta issue

, its the boasting about doing so is the meta issue. Can you show me examples of him posting 'I hammer town reads' when he is town in a game? If so I will retract my comments on it. But right now, he boasted about it as scum in Pokemon, and has boasted here about it too. It is a match to scum boon unless you can show me otherwise him posting about hammering town reads when he is town (Note - not the action of hammering but the boasting about doing so like he has here and in pokemon)

My comments about him being a liability were because I expected to wake up to be lynched. Can't quite remember now why though I thought I was waking up to noose. IF Boon is town (which I highly doubt) that is someone you do not want around towards end game as he could cost town. That is the point I was making there

Understand now?

Good, I am not going around in circles again on this.

One last time

The meta is him boasting as scum about doing it. NOT the action of doing it as town.

Boon - you can claim all the BS you want, the fact is, you boasted about it (hammering town reads) as scum in Pokemon, and you've boasted about it here. The Meta matches, you're scum. Regardless of how you spin it. Despite asking, you have yet to show me a town game where you boast about hammering your town reads.

Reluctantly though, you will not be the lynch today. And that pains me.

I have been on the fence about Thor, I tried to see his actions as 'too loud to be scum' but the truth is, he is a cheerleader, trying to get lynches and out roles (in his own words) without doing the work. He is quite happy to sit back and get a lynch without considering other options. He should be the lynch today. He only wants to serve as a distraction to town with his attitude towards others.

All 3 of my team agree the vote is wasted on Boon today and think it should go on Thor, I am sure he is scum (Boon). But that won't sail today. With only a few days to deadline I will move to the cheerleader who wants to out roles. Thor today, and I will push for Boon tomorrow. 2 lynches, 2 scum.

vote:Thor

Back to my bed I go.

Oh look at the oh shit deadline posts...lets jump on. Including one, not fully caught up in the game so go with the easy lynch lol.


Well done Thor, you've outted a role as I said you wanted to do. (which you then admitted to)

I am a town power role, a protective role at that.

I am a town bodyguard.

Now, lets see if this forces those on my wagon who have sat there easily all day, do something. Instead of cheering on the sidelines like has been pointed out.

I also want to note... the last 2 people on my wagon.

HAVE NOT EVEN READ THE GAME FULLY

Unvote, Vote Jason

I'm not caught up

but saw that deadline is coming and prefer a Jason lynch to a Thor lynch

UNVOTE:

I really need to read this fucking game.

Like, there's a very real chance that jason is just being

bad

. And his teammates are letting him get away with it.

Any reason why you both, without reading the game fully, and not being caught up.. are willing to force through a lynch for the sake of it being close to deadline and not knowing what to do because... like said.. neither of you are caught up.

aaaaaaand more conviction I liked.

---

so yeah. I'm town reading the shit out of this ISO. this reflects my current read and not the one I had early game bc I came to the conclusion that his neutral sounding posts are entirely playstyle. this is also the case for the way he tends to tunnel on one person at a time, and his "meta" case is a huge misunderstanding. combined with the claim (it is a theoretically unsound play to lynch a BG claim, regardless of whatever read you might have), and we're not lynching him today.

[pieguyn]

@sthar:

whatever happened to our Q/A session? I'm also wondering if you're town reading me now (and if you are, what in that exchange made you read me as town) or for specifically what reason you've stopped pushing me, notably given the fact that I still haven't responded to your last set of questions re: me from a while back.

[pieguyn]

this is ultra tl;dr bc I'm nowhere near as engaged with this game as I'd like to be. I should be around on-and-off tomorrow.

TOWN(S->W):

jasonT1981 [The Kliq]

<gap>

Save The Dragons [Sickeningly Sweet] - body of work. can explain, but not particularly relevant ATM.
Trojan Horse [The Captains] - I don't have any play-based reason for this, I'm just willing to trust the assessment that he was obvious scum in the last game.

<gap>

SleepyKrew [The Cockettes] - this is more a BS meta read than anything. I don't see SK's scum game here; his attitude towards the game is usually different when scum (he's a lot more active and engaged and it's clear that he puts a lot of effort into attempting to appear pro-town), here I'm seeing him disengaged and not knowing what to do and it doesn't come off faked on a gut level. it is possible what I'm seeing is just him playing differently or him deliberately playing off his meta.
Deltawave * [TBD] - gut. essentially, he reminds me of how I often play town. he's not concerned with the general consensus, his focus relies entirely on trying to sort out/lynch STD and moving on only when it becomes obvious he won't get anywhere with it. I don't get the impression he's pushing an agenda or trying to curry favor with anyone here. this could just as easily be playstyle.
Boonskiies [TEAM WITH NO NAME] - I liked the earlier-than-consensus town reads on Fen and me. I dislike his original jason vote for reasons already stated. more recently, I like his recent interaction with jason (starting from 510), namely the way he tries to correct him on what he perceives as incorrect behavior - this attitude usually makes more sense coming from a town player, especially when he as scum doesn't have much of a reason to bother given the only reason he even thinks this is his teammates convincing him.

<gap>

Egg [Peruvian Flute Band] - not as town as I originally thought before I started collecting all my reads. I think more likely to be town, but need to go and reread this slot in-depth (probably tomorrow), especially since I doubt Thor and sthar are both scum.
Fenchurch [God Save the Black Goo] - ^
Micc * [The Athenians] - has done fucking nothing. I want to see actual content here.
Malakittens [The Unviggable Vegetables] - I still say scum (or at least has done nothing town), both GIF and notsci appear to think she's town. either way, off the table for now.

<gap>

sthar8 [Marshmallow Pillow Fort]
Thor665 [Gestalt]

[pieguyn]

OK hold on - when I say I wish bodyguard wouldn't be used, that is not me saying bodyguard is an uncommon role or unlikely to actually be in the game. the last mini normal I played had a bodyguard in it as well. it's a perfectly common role, I just don't like it.

anyway, we're lynching Thor today. and if jason somehow gets lynched, we're speedlynching Thor tomorrow

[pieguyn]

Pie I know you have mentioned that Notty is reading this game, but how much has Mara and Mastin read? Whats their take on things?

I don't think either of them are reading this game. notsci hasn't really read much of it, either, the only read he gave me was that you were town.

pie - your extended reads list has an asterisk next to Micc and Delta. What did this mean? Sorry if the reason is obvious but I missed it.

I literally just copied the OP's player list and didn't bother to remove the asterisks. :p

[pieguyn]

The real suggestion is keeping him alive up until massclaim time/another defensive role, yeah?

yes

and part of the reason you're scum is because town-you would realize how fucking basic this is instead of ignoring it

[pieguyn]

well this is a shitfest. I'll figure out who I want to vote later today once I finish writing this paper and can reread some.

[pieguyn]

Then look at those and see who made the easiest jumps onto the wagons.

sthar's jump onto Thor came off as really odd to me. will probably go back and check this later

either way, I want to see what he does at this point, especially given he said before he can't post as much as he'd like

[pieguyn]

it is true that bodyguard is a much harder fakeclaim to maintain as scum than hider

hider is actually really easy to get away with as scum - and actually doesn't give town any info at all. it sets up a lot of WIFOM re: whether you clear a partner or not and can just as easily be used to fake a guilty sometime down the road.

I continue to believe Thor is likely scum and the best lynch right now.

[pieguyn]

although now that I say that, I'm OK with Thor hiding behind jason tonight given both of them being scum here would be completely ridiculous.

vote: sthar

I don't feel optimistic about this, but eh. the only thing I have against it is that I don't think he's scum with Thor -.-

[pieguyn]

so

quick search through all mini games Nexus modded shows he's never used a hider before (unless I'm just blatantly missing it). if he put one here, it's the first time he's done it. I don't know how unreasonable this is given he's also used stuff like super-saint, global-roleblocking IC, and siblings, though.

[pieguyn]

I'm actually really not happy with Egg on reread. I'm seeing a lot of safe stances, leading questions based around past posts (which I don't like bc stuff like that usually winds up being irrelevant by the time you catch up) and it feels more like he's just trying to go with the flow of the game as opposed to producing relevant content.

the majority of the game, he pushes both Boon and jason as scum and outright claims they might be bussing. I don't buy this at all. it feels more like he's trying to take advantage of the massive shitstorm that was going on the whole time by trying to push one of them as scum.

Boon, my team wants to know some of your reads. They feel you are playing to your scum meta and they don't like that you defended yourself with self meta.
...
Boon, I kind of agree with my team here. You seem to overdo the "I'm a VI" thing as scum and just kind of roll with it as town. Here, I feel like you are overdoing it.

Boon, Cheet and Tier said your stuff about telling everyone you hammer your strongest town read and stuff is an attempt to look like VI. Not sure why you think I said they know more than I do about your meta? I'm relaying what they said and I asked you what they wanted me to ask you.

here you're claiming you agree with the meta read on Boon. then here

Based on Page 10, I think at least one of Boon/Jason is scum. I don't like how Boon came in all "lol I'm so bad" and Jason seems to have made up his mind far too early that Boon is obvscum. I could see it being a bus. But at the very least, one of these guys is scum.

you call jason scum for calling Boon obvious scum "too early", and this is the first reason you had for jason being scum. the problem I have with this is:

1. jason was pushing Boon ever since early game (160). what makes "page 10" "far too early" for this when jason was pushing him for a good portion of the game up until this point?
2. why the hell is jason making up his mind that Boon is obvious scum indicative of him being scum when you share his scum read on Boon? your angle here essentially amounts to calling jason scum entirely for the strength of his read, which is an actual playstyle-related reason.

I get the feeling Boon is intentionally avoiding voting Delta at the bottom of Page 14. Top of the next page doesn't convince me otherwise.

this is referring to 346 ~ 354. why exactly do you have a problem with Boon not voting Delta here? there's nothing scummy about it and I feel like this is just you stretching for an angle to comment on.

I personally think Thor is town. If he's not, he'll have to either bus or claim an innocent on a buddy at some point which helps town anyway. But basically, I trust him to sort Jason for us and we don't have to risk lynching a power role that way.

what makes you think Thor is town, given everything you've posted up to this point indicates you're suspicious of him?

I also don't believe you really think him claiming an inno on a buddy at whatever point helps town (it doesn't, it just opens the door for a shitton of WIFOM) and I don't believe you believe that last sentence given you just said here

I don't feel great about a new wagon popping up and getting yet another power role claim and I still think Jason is scum anyway.

you don't want a new wagon popping up after seeing Thor's claim - it makes me think this post was just a bullshit throwaway reason for throwing suspicion at jason's claim.

the last point in particular has me really paranoid here. I'm seeing a lot of weak questions directed to Thor (it's pretty apparent if you skim through it), but he never follows through with any of them and instead calls him town near the end of the day, despite not stating any reason at all for town reading read him before. I realize it's shit to point out potential associatives before flips, but regardless, this is more a point towards Egg scum either way.

---

The real suggestion is keeping him alive up until massclaim time/another defensive role, yeah?

yes

and part of the reason you're scum is because town-you would realize how fucking basic this is instead of ignoring it

You're ignoring the more pertinent information I discussed with you to debate meaningless gak.

this post also comes off disingenuous as fuck. he's essentially attempting to discredit my argument just because "lol you ignored the rest of my wall" - especially when what he's saying isn't even true, the rest was just all specifics re: jason and it's theoretically sound to not lynch jason

regardless

of what your read on him is after bodyguard claim.

[pieguyn]

I feel mostly ok with Fenchurch on reread. I have some paranoia over the jason push and bc I always get paranoid when people have me as their strongest town read, but I generally think her reasoning for it was at least reasonable. besides that a lot of her thoughts have been similar to mine over the course of the game (Mala scum in particular) and I have gut-town on the way she's been consistently attempting to shut down suspicion on her town reads. also I'm going to hazard a guess that scum tried to force the jason lynch through even despite him claiming bodyguard, which makes her immediately backing off a point in her favor.

Thor claiming hider actually makes a lot of sense I think from him-scum - it'd open the door to a potential 3rd (possibly investigative) CC and then scum are in a good position with 2 claims on the table. on another note I realized my statement about using hider to fake a guilty is dumb. yay for it being 4 AM -.-

[pieguyn]

most of these wagons are really bad. I don't like Egg's TH vote in particular, he spent a fuckton of time this day phase calling sthar scum and didn't appear to have much of a strong read on TH - I think he's afraid to commit to a scum read on sthar bc he'd look worse off it when sthar flips town.

vote: Thor

I really really really wanna do this. if not, someone come up with an acceptable compromise. I should be around tomorrow.

[pieguyn]

Prior to claim I definitely found Jason's play scummy, although I do concede it's possible this is down to wildly different playstyles. I've read pie's counter argument but it doesn't really compensate for the things I find suspect. His push on Boon rests mainly on a thing Boon said once in a scum game and said again here. This is a fairly weak case in my opinion, and doesn't merit the weight jason gave it.

even discounting the claim I'm about 90% sure this is more of a playstyle issue

him railing on Boon despite not having a 100% solid case is bc he's pissed off and indignated that Boon is pushing him for what, from his POV, he is perceiving as complete bullshit (and if you think about it that way, it makes even more sense bc he thinks Boon is outright making stuff up here). I don't think he as scum has any reason to go out of his way to do this - he could just as easily fake a calmer/more rational response as scum.

If I was going to lynch either claimant now it would be Thor, because I think the claim itself, the circumstances surrounding it, and his subsequent absence all seem scummy. But I think we are in a much better position if we lynch elsewhere today, as we have the chance to gain more information about both Thor and Jason from the Night.

I'd agree with this (the alternative being a sthar lynch), except I have massively bad gut vibes about the way the wagons are right now. :/

I think that if Thor is scum scum are all just going to bloc vote whatever easy wagon(s) comes up and we'll be stuck in the ass with not enough time to get a correct lynch. see: the large number of people who have been sitting on their ass wrt votes instead of trying to put effort into making someone a viable lynch target.

[pieguyn]

Heya, guys! I'm running off to work right now, so let's keep this simple. Who do I vote? Why?

@MOD: _now_ can we get a deadline extension? or was this an error?

[pieguyn]

This is a horrible choice. I would still like more people to consider Mala-scum, or else explain to me why Trojan is more likely scum.

there really isn't much of a case on TH

I have no idea why SK is voting him, jason is voting him bc he doesn't want to lynch a PR and bc he doesn't like how TH pushed him after his claim. I have no idea what Boon's reasoning is.

Egg (in addition to what you said) appears to be voting him bc he doesn't like his reaction to jason's claim - he believes TH feels way too strongly it's false - and he thinks this despite supposedly not believing jason's claim himself is true. this is also conditional around jason being town, again while he doesn't appear to believe the claim. this is a part of why I'm getting bad gut pings from the way the wagons are right now.

soooooo /shrug

[pieguyn]

Pie, why is hider easier to fake? It's essentially confirming a townie every day

and if you confirm a buddy and one of you dies, the other is auto lynch

. Bodyguard can just say "I tried to protect X and failed" every day which works until there is an obvious protect.

the bolded isn't strictly true. if you fake claim hider as scum and clear a partner, and then get lynched yourself, the other isn't in any way an auto lynch. it's just a shitton of WIFOM regardless of how you attempt to look at it.

the only way it's an auto lynch is if the person who gets "cleared" is lynched, and if you're going to clear a scum partner you'd likely clear one who was not in danger of being lynched and you'd likely do it closer to endgame (ex. N2 or N3, although N1 isn't strictly impossible) - but again, it's just a shitton of WIFOM

the only thing that really makes it difficult is that you have to justify your continued survival, but this isn't that difficult either and even if someone does figure it out, it again opens the door for a shitton of WIFOM. this is even more so the case when you can go back sometime later and say "I was x-shot, didn't feel like claiming it, herp derp".

Also, I wasn't calling sthar scum for very long if you look at my ISO.

you were sure as hell calling him scum for longer than TH, and you appeared to feel strongly about it. this in particular

LMAO. So you think I voted you just to make you not care about the game and easy to lynch? Sorry, but it's a huge stretch to think that I'd think along those lines and even if I did you aren't the player I'd fear most if I was scum. That's not at all how I play anyway.

looked like you were at the very least skeptical of him, even if you weren't outright scum reading him.

Thor's posts since my second to last catchup look like his town meta. The way he argues with Jason and STD, specifically. And it's not that scum faking innocents on buddies "helps town". It's that the second one of them flips scum, the other is auto lynched which is risky. It's not impossible that this is what Thor is doing. It's just that calling it easy is just straight wrong.

OK

so what made the way he argued with jason/STD since your _second-to-last_ catchup any different than the way he was arguing with them _the entire fucking game before that_? in your second to last catchup there's direct questioning that indicates you're suspicious of him.

How do you feel about establishing townreads and catching scum through POE?

it's literally my primary strategy as both town and scum

in most of my games, I get a few scum reads but my major focus is usually on trying to form solid town reads and POE the game. usually I get somewhat solid results with it. I also tend to not get paranoid of my more solid town reads after I form them - the end goal being to hopefully be thinking about as many players as close to cleared as possible so that I don't have to worry about going wrong anywhere.

I tend to use a lot of circumstantial evidence in a way that something makes no sense if someone is scum. ex: in a recent scum game, I cleared a town player because of how one of my partners voted (he didn't attempt to save him despite previously posturing to get on the wagon that would have saved him), and I likely would have picked up on the same thing as town and pushed it harder than I did in that game.

[pieguyn]

Tammy thinks Thor is making up reads from his teammates; he put me down as a Nacho scumread here:

I endorse the fuck out of this, fwiw.

(incidentally, it ties into the point I originally made on Thor a while back: there isn't any way town Nacho if he was actually reading this game has jason as anything but strong town at the point where I started townreading him.)

[pieguyn]

OK

care to actually explain why it's wrong, then? hint:

if he was actually reading this game

this is not irrelevant. it's not really a 100% strong "omg must be scum" point, but I endorse it regardless. either way, I'll take this opportunity and remind everyone that there are a hell of a lot stronger reasons for Thor being scum here.

[pieguyn]

also I'm waiting to see if you have any more points or if that's it

[pieguyn]

Oh piguy I wasn't saying "fuck that Nacho stuff it sucks", I was saying "fuck, I forgot about that Nacho read stuff while I was making my panicky shitcase on Trojan".
And right now my brain can seriously not tell me whether that inconsistency is worth a vote, or if it was possibly just a mistake by a town Thor. It also cannot tell me how I should feel about Trojan not presenting his finding in anything remotely close to how I'd expect a townie in his position to present it.

o, fair enough

just keep calm and lynch Thor! we can celebrate later.

(if you want my probably biased opinion, I don't think most of the points you brought up hold much water and generally think a lot of it could just as easily be attributed to not playing in a while, and I don't agree with saying 3-year-old meta isn't steal just bc they haven't played in 3+ years. same thing with the Thor read: I think him not putting his entire weight behind it is more playstyle, and Tammy prob didn't come up with it until recently. #walkingintolinesofquestioning)

[pieguyn]

*stale

[pieguyn]

<3

[pieguyn]

now is about the time where it'd be really nice if some people who aren't really doing anything with their vote (Vyse, Boon, Mala) would vote Thor or otherwise take some kind of stance here. plz and thx

[pieguyn]

Im not done catching up yet pie, but do you have a new question for me?

I can't really think of many. this isn't how I usually go about asking questions, I usually just ask direct questions about stuff related to the game; regardless if Thor flips scum I'd highly doubt you were scum in the first place.

what is your usual strategy when attempting to make a push on someone?

[pieguyn]

I'd just like to point out that the new people who were voting me [jason; egg] are now voting for the same person who I've been on for the entirety of the game basically. I'll let that sink in.

I should probably go V/LA. I'm in dress rehearsal for my show, opening this weekend, and after we open, it should be much easier. I'm going to V/LA until 4/17. My hectic life will be becoming less hectic soon.

vote Thor, or otherwise vote one of the 2 main wagons

we're not having a no lynch today

[pieguyn]

Who in this game do you have prior experience with? Whose teammates do you know well?

I actually don't know very many people in this game. I've played 2 games with Boon, 1 game with jason, 1 game with SK, a reasonable number of games with Mala, 1 game with Thor a loong time ago (and he was in a hydra) and never played with anyone else :<

I have a shitton of games with ffery, Nacho, Tammy, and GIF (my record at reading Nacho is probably one of the best on site, I've only missed him as scum once and never missed him as town in 11 games. this is why I feel confident saying "town Nacho wouldn't do xxx" like I am here, but obviously it's kind of an obscure point and only applies if he's even reading this game so I'm not putting much stock in it), as well as assorted games with some other people (Cheetory and GreyICE come to mind). I've also played a fair amount with Anti and Marquis, but it doesn't seem like either of them are reading this game.

soooooooo

how would you say your scum play is different from your town play?

[pieguyn]

[pieguyn]

one thing really quick before I do anything:

@STD:

mastin wanted me to tell you that she shares Ceph's suspicion of SK.

[pieguyn]

mastin and I both hate the Egg wagon. ftr:

I'm having trouble seeing his vote as "gotta bus my partner for town cred." I'm probably not going to be interested in Egg today, or rather the case of "that vote looked suspicious" isn't going to do it for me.

IAWTP. regardless of what you think, it, objectively, makes no sense for Egg to hammer his partner with (in all seriousness) 6 seconds remaining to a no lynch.

I suppose I could see it as scum thinking they'd get town cred off it, but that's not compelling enough to make me interested in lynching him today.

[pieguyn]

Oh piguy I wasn't saying "fuck that Nacho stuff it sucks", I was saying "fuck, I forgot about that Nacho read stuff while I was making my panicky shitcase on Trojan".
And right now my brain can seriously not tell me whether that inconsistency is worth a vote, or if it was possibly just a mistake by a town Thor. It also cannot tell me how I should feel about Trojan not presenting his finding in anything remotely close to how I'd expect a townie in his position to present it.

Oh piguy I wasn't saying "fuck that Nacho stuff it sucks", I was saying "fuck, I forgot about that Nacho read stuff while I was making my panicky shitcase on Trojan".
And right now my brain can seriously not tell me whether that inconsistency is worth a vote, or if it was possibly just a mistake by a town Thor. It also cannot tell me how I should feel about Trojan not presenting his finding in anything remotely close to how I'd expect a townie in his position to present it.

o, fair enough

just keep calm and lynch Thor! we can celebrate later.

(if you want my probably biased opinion, I don't think most of the points you brought up hold much water and generally think a lot of it could just as easily be attributed to not playing in a while, and I don't agree with saying 3-year-old meta isn't steal just bc they haven't played in 3+ years. same thing with the Thor read: I think him not putting his entire weight behind it is more playstyle, and Tammy prob didn't come up with it until recently. #walkingintolinesofquestioning)

Alright, unless my team talks me out of it, I'm probably going to vote Thor before I go to sleep.
So if he's town, this is everyone's fault except mine.

this felt like a really weird way to bus if it was scum bussing.

"keep calm and lynch thor!"
"OK! *vote: Thor*"

maybe it's just me, though

[pieguyn]

Thor665 (7 - LYNCH)- sthar8, pieguyn, Trojan Horse, Save The Dragons, SleepyKrew, Fenchurch, Egg,

it would not surprise me if everyone on here was town. I'm almost positive scum tried to save Thor at the end of the day here. mastin has a different opinion from me on this.

part of me thinks if we just lynched all the people off the wagon save jason we'd win the game immediately. I doubt it was a coincidence that Boon was here and FAILED to move his vote despite him having no fucking reason for actually being on TH, nor that we had a bunch of people conveniently vote TH at the end for what, IMO, were weak reasons or "don't want to lynch a PR". but eh

[pieguyn]

oh also

@Egg:

mastin wants to you know that she is giving you a very strong face for thinking I could possibly be scum here.

mastin also isn't feeling Boon as scum, leaving Vyse, Delta, and Mala.

[pieguyn]

I'll ask her. at the moment she just told me that she "wasn't feeling Boon as scum, for what it's worth".

[pieguyn]

(also, not hammering there and then a later Thor scumflip would've been pretty damning)

this is one of the reasons she thinks Boon is town, since Boon is known for lolquickhammering in most of his games; ergo, Boon-scum NOT hammering would be stupid. he wouldn't be able to get away with not hammering since everyone would figure it out and place him under scrutiny for it. on the other hand, Boon-town does whatever the hell he wants, so it makes more sense.

it's the opposite of Egg, who she thinks is town specifically bc he's the type of player who she thinks could get away with letting it go to a no lynch as scum.

she also thinks Boon is acting a lot like late game in Drawn on Arrival, so there's meta reasons behind it.

[pieguyn]

So what im saying is between your team, mastin should be the one with the moe influencal one with a read.

yeah, about that.

guess what mastin's read on you is? she feels preeeetty fucking strongly about it, and I agree.

[pieguyn]

What I was asking has she read the game fully or is she just reading off of my end game of D1?

she's reading from the end of D1, correct.

Also Pie seriously your tunnel on me pretty much all game is crap. You didn't consult with mara or Mastin when I reached out to you before, but now it's pretty clear Mastin has a read that deciding to fit your bill to a T.

HAHA

I actually lol'd when I read this. first mastin should be the best one on our team at reading you, now that she's scum reading you you're claiming she's just following whatever my read was?

you know why mastin is reading you as scum? it's posts like this. tell me, exactly what about the way I approached the read on you D1 could be considered "tunneling"? I wasn't even fucking pushing you and was instead

actively trying to convince people not to lynch you

, explicitly because I was factoring notsci's read on you into account.

what you're saying here is the exact opposite of the truth. I, nor mastin, don't see you-town thinking this actually makes sense. we don't see a town approach in how you're handling the read on you here; all both of us are seeing is that you're just creating noise here and trying to discredit. like, seriously, I was supposedly tunneling specifically because I didn't ask Mara or mastin, despite the fact that I HAD asked notsci, he had given me a town read on you, and I was satisfied with it?

soooooo yeah

[pieguyn]

vote: Mala

[pieguyn]

btw, we also feel that Egg and DW's reactions to Thor at the end of D1 are highly town and will not consider anything resembling a lynch on either of them at this juncture.

[pieguyn]

Pie was also hedging his read on me d1. Granted it was because he was trying to reign it in due to notty, but still he kept his option to vote me which was hedging. So tunneling at the start and then hedging towards the end.

hedging towards the end...... when you didn't have a wagon on you and were in no danger of being lynched.

yeah, nice hedge there

(not to mention I had specifically said I wasn't interested in lynching you D1, so this is a load of shit.)

[pieguyn]

I want Mastin to read from The start of D1 and not just the end of D1 pie. That a way to gain a flawed read and not an accurate one.

didn't you just say it was just her fitting her read to my read?

regardless, I'll ask her, but she feels you are "certainly scum" just based on your posts today/at the end of D1, so I don't particularly understand why you think her read on you would be different if she read the whole game.

(this is another post I don't see a town approach in, btw. you're essentially claiming that mastin's read is invalid bc she hasn't read the game - again, trying to discredit. /shrug)

[pieguyn]

Fench was trying to call for a wagon on me at the end of D2. There was also support from it by someone other than you and her if I recall right.

yes, Fen was calling for a wagon on you. I was totally willing to put all my weight behind said wagon of nobility and justice.

that's basically where I'm at with Mala as well

notsci and Mala are BFFs outside of mafia and that game was over a year ago, so I have a bit more faith in his ability to catch her. I'm not ruling her out as scum bc of it, just saying I'd rather lynch elsewhere for the time being unless I have compelling reason not to

Malakittens [The Unviggable Vegetables] - I still say scum (or at least has done nothing town), both GIF and notsci appear to think she's town. either way, off the table for now.

oh wait.

STOP BS'ING THE ARGUMENT YOU WANT TO PUSH HOPING NO ONE ACTUALLY GOES BACK AND READS IT.

I'm not trying to discredit her. I'm trying to get her to gain a more accurate read than she has currently. Her read is in fact wrong, but that's because she's scum reading me because of my unwillingness to hammer Thor, which it's unreasonable for her to believe that my beliefs got in the way to not wanting to hammer.

no she fucking isn't, and if you were reading my posts, you would know this. she is (and I am) scum reading you because she does not see a town approach in your play this day phase/the last day phase. she doesn't see you attempting to figure anything out, she thinks you're just creating a bunch of noise hoping to distract. it is in no way solely because of your unwillingness to hammer Thor - it ties into it, but saying that's her whole reason for scum reading you is false and a huge oversimplification. she thinks you're scum because the WAY you're doing it was scummy, and you're doing the same thing today.

saying that you're trying to help her "gain a more accurate read on you" has the effect of establishing that her read on you is somehow invalid because she hasn't read the game, or that someone needs to read the whole game in order to have a read on you. it's, again, pointless noise aimed to misdirect.

[pieguyn]

everyone should read the BS Mala has been pushing here.

I have now counted at least 3 arguments coming from her that have

objectively wrong

, and should be obviously so to anyone who is reading the game. she's not actually trying to work with me, or putting any legitimate effort into trying to convince me that she's town. she's supposedly trying to get me to "fix" my read on her, but has elaborated

literally 0

on why I should be finding her town here - rather, she's ignoring the reasons I have for her being scum and creating noise in order to distract (for instance, insisting that mastin read the full game and pulling this up whenever mastin calls her scum in order to discredit her). she's just making shit up in order to misdirect/downplay my read on her and hoping no one actually verifies what she's saying.

please don't make me spam this until this gets addressed, bc I will fucking do it. you thought I led the lynch on Thor? I'm capable of strong arming a lynch a thousand times harder than I strong armed that one.

[pieguyn]

SK, you just pointed out the exact thing that makes Mala's play this game day coming from scum instead of town. please vote her.

p-edit: oh nvm. thanks <3

[pieguyn]

...........

when I get to a computer I'll explain why you're spouting bullshit here

[pieguyn]

post

so instead of trying to point me towards actual stuff I should be looking for in order to town read you, you spend all your effort making sure everyone in this game knows that I supposedly can't read you for shit - despite (as you said in that post) me not actually having to read you in like 7 of those games.

the only game where I really had to form a read on you was TH 3, and, as you said, your RL went to shit that game and affected your play to the point where other people who were familiar with your play had also read you as scum. trying to claim I'm complete shit at reading you as a result of that is disingenuous - sure, I read you incorrectly, but it'd be like calling me scum in a game for lurking when I just have RL factors that make me unable to post. using me "dismissing" you in a rude way to claim I can't read you is also disingenuous, because you completely ignore the context - I had an ultra strong town read on one of the scum in that game that I would not reevaluate. keeping that in mind, it is reasonable to stop you from going and attempting to shoot her. so, what exactly is the problem here?

you also continue to ignore that mastin's scum read on you is not solely based on the fact that you voted TH, but your general play starting from there - and that it's not just the fact you avoided Thor but the WAY you did it. this is a large part of why I think you're just BS'ing here.

*if* you want to show me why I should read you as town here, I'll analyze it, but it's as I said. you're not, and instead making even more noise so that people don't realize you don't actually have a point here.

The way you started D1 was tunneling, but you substantially got better when you realized that notty was townreading me. You never once stopped scumreading me, granted you stopped pushing me. So actively tunneling me yes, actively tunneling-pushing me no. I would have thought you would have asked your whole team for a read on me. Notty isn't the only one on your team that has experience with playing with me.

so, I'm apparently "tunneling" because I didn't go out of my way to ask my entire team for a read on you. are you actually serious? even if I was aware mastin and Mara supposedly know how to read you, you outright fucking claimed in the game thread (actually now that I think about it it might not have been this game specifically, but I know you said this at one point, and I know it's true) that notsci and you were BFFs offsite. after he gave me a town read, I dropped my read in favor of his.

. . .

how exactly is that tunneling? it's exactly the opposite: I'm willing to drop my read when told by someone with more experience with me that I was wrong. and again, you're using the fact I continued thinking you were scum as an excuse to claim I'm tunneling, when my behavior in the game thread quite clearly indicated I did not want you lynched at that point in the game.

I don't believe for two seconds you think that makes sense. I think you're trying to claim I'm "tunneling" you as an excuse to discredit my/mastin's scum read on you, since you expect people not to listen to those who are labeled as "tunneling". even despite the fact that I am scum reading you, I am not tunneling: I am attempting to analyze your posts objectively, and I am finding that none of them make much sense from a town player.

/shrug

I didn't say her read is invalid. I want her to read from D1 start to now and see if it changes. She's wrong, you are wrong. You both need to stop and face the music.

you didn't directly say her read is invalid, no. it's specifically HOW you're doing it here that makes me think you're attempting to discredit over actually reach out here.

you're making a huge point of making sure that everyone in the game knows that mastin had only read from the end of D1. I think you're doing this because you think people will be less likely to listen to a read coming from someone who hasn't fully read the game, so you make a huge point of this in order to discredit her read on you.

and even if this was the case, I don't believe you legitimately think this makes sense. I think you're aware that mastin's RL situation is fairly busy, that she's V/LA on weekends, and that she at several points does not have enough time to contribute fully to games. I think you're suggesting this, knowing full well that there is a relatively good chance mastin won't be able to actually read the full game - which will put her in a position where you can just claim "lol, you haven't read the game" and tell her to read it whenever she wants to push you as scum.

both of these are fairly typical scum manoeuvres in order to make someone attacking you look worse than you. it's all posturing, really - and this is why I do not see a town approach in the way you're playing this game day.

I don't do the 'tell me why you are town shit'. I don't like that shit at all that anyone pulls in a game. If you don't think I'm town by an ISO then tough shit. Give me a point by point reason why i'm scum and I'll try to refute a case. People telling someone to point out why I'm town is scummy as fuck, I'm sorry.

are you actually serious? you're claiming I'm wrong and asking me to reread you and YOU DON'T EVEN TELL ME WHAT I SHOULD BE LOOKING FOR THAT I'M MISSING. serious question: I'm supposedly misreading you. why exactly would you expect me to read you any differently if I look at your ISO in the current gamestate?

*you* are the one claiming I should not be misreading you here. the burden of proof is on *you* to explain why this is the case.

you're just repeating that I'm reading you wrong and hoping people believe it without thinking critically - as opposed to, for instance, starting off by actually engaging me on why I actually think you're scum. and I could potentially see this, except YOU KEEP SAYING THAT MASTIN WAS SCUM READING YOU EXCLUSIVELY BASED AROUND YOUR END-OF-D1 PLAY, AND IMMEDIATELY ASSUMED AS MUCH WHEN I FIRST ANNOUNCED SHE HAD A SCUM READ ON YOU. this is, again, why I'm not seeing a town approach here.

the last sentence is also amusing, given you appear to believe I'm town.

[pieguyn]

VOTE: DW.

I don't like the whole let's flashwagon Boon. He tried to derail both the TH and the Thor lynch, granted he was in the same boat as me for not wanting to lynch Thor, but there was no reason for him to try derail the TH lynch either like he did. The only reason why he would derail the TH was because he had a higher scumread on Boon. Boon went V/LA, didn't claim. Why was there a sudden push for wanting Boon lynched like ~hours~ before the deadline.

here Mala is claiming DW is scum and saying that "there is no reason for him to derail the TH lynch like he did". this is, again, objectively false. DW said this _in the game thread_:

I've been on the fence about Trojan for a while, but I'll give my team some credit on this one. Plus, I'm not about to lynch a D1 PR claim.

DW made it pretty clear what his motivation was: he was on the fence about TH and wasn't sold on the wagon. this is a perfectly valid reason for not wanting to vote someone and make a last-ditch attempt to lynch elsewhere.

this is typical scum behavior. Mala is not attempting to form a read here, or critically think about what happened in the game. rather, she is taking something that DW already explained, and inventing some alternative cosmic motivation in order to justify using it as a scum read. but, OK. suppose she was right about this and that is why DW voted Boon. why is this scummy? what does DW-scum have to gain by doing this? why *couldn't* DW do it as town? this isn't a good reason for reading DW as scum, and she's not thinking about this because she doesn't *have* to fucking think about it - she wants to push DW as scum and is making the evidence fit her conclusion.

I was apologizing to TH because I didn't like the thought of lynching him. Towards the end of the day I was getting a bit of a townread on Trojan for the way he was expressing his last reads from his team. It felt town-motivated like he was trying to give his last will. That's what made me believe that Trojan was flipping town and I apologized because I didn't want to lynch town, but at the same time I didn't want to lynch Thor, who claimed a PR. I was conflicted and I knew that I couldn't wagon anyone else.

but now Mala claims that she didn't have particularly strong feelings about TH being scum either. so, if she _herself_ didn't have a strong read on TH, exactly what is wrong with DW doing the _exact same fucking thing_?

she knows it's not a scum tell, but is pushing it anyway. this is highly disingenuous and likely scum.

[pieguyn]

@sthar: look at the timestamps. there were literally 6 fucking seconds left until the deadline hit and we'd get a no lynch. you might jump on at the last minute in order to not look bad off it, yes, but not in a situation like that where not doing so would literally not cause Thor to even get lynched. /shrug

[pieguyn]

Pie was literally like a beacon of hope for me, multiple times parting the seas and leading the way towards Thor as a valid lynch, her posts like a flaming sword to cut through the verbose, timewasting arguments to expose the scummy intent beneath for all to see.

just saw this

if this is real, I'm sig'ing this postgame. this is one of the most beautiful things I've ever read.

<3

[pieguyn]

yo jason, are you open to a Mala lynch today? what do you make of her recent behavior?

[pieguyn]

.......

that's a really bad reason for reading her as town. GIF in particular should know this because of how Mala essentially rolled over and died in TH upick 3 where she was town and not in a position to do anything bc her RL went to shit, which is essentially the same scenario we have here. I would think she'd put *more* effort into defending herself as scum here bc she'd care more about her survival, not less.

I'm not saying her effort here is necessarily a scum tell, but it's a really shit reason to town read her.

[pieguyn]

(and no, my argument is not that she's scum for supposedly playing off her town game

it's that it's really easy to fake extra bursts of effort like she's doing here, and so that it's a shit reason to town read her. this is even more so the case when if you attempt to look at it objectively, none of it is town and instead she's spending all of it doing things like writing walls with the sole purpose of discrediting other people)

[pieguyn]

I wasn't gonna be able to argue out of a lynch so yes i gave up towards the end, but not before I tried fighting the lynch off the day before.

... ok. so, what?

if you read my post, you'd realize what I'm primarily saying there is that Boon is incorrect to town read you for "effort".

not fully caught up (Sorry, been seriously slacking this weekend, no real excuses, I have just been bloody lazy and enjoyed time away from computer) Mala came across townish day 1 to me. Not high up on the town read, but nothing pinging serious enough to pick up as scum.

k. I recommend you read her posts today (and my posts re: her) very carefully when you get to them.

[pieguyn]

we feel that Delta is strongly town off, among other things, this exchange:

I talked it over with my team and there's a strong preference for a sthar8 lynch, even though this guy has been flying largely under my radar. They do seem supportive of Trojan as a next-best-lynch. I've been on the fence about Trojan for a while, but I'll give my team some credit on this one. Plus, I'm not about to lynch a D1 PR claim.

UNVOTE: Boon
VOTE: Trojan

L-1

Horrible, horrible idea to lynch a PR claim D1. There is no excuse for this wagon.

his attitude here is "it's fucking terrible to lynch a PR D1, you all have no excuse for this". this is a town mindset, even though it (in this case) wound up being incorrect. it's him getting frustrated and disagreeing with it bc he can't see why everyone has gone insane and is lynching a PR on D1. we do not see scum attempting to use this specific situation to their advantage here or going out of their way to make up reasons to derail the Thor wagon.

we think Egg is probably town for the same reason, as well as the hammer yesterday. either way, DW is a really bad lynch right now.

[pieguyn]

yo Egg, are you open to a Mala lynch today? I'm basically in a similar position to you, except I have it rearranged a bit: Mala as scum + one of {Boon, Vyse with an outside chance of SK}.

I do think that Boon makes the most sense as a Mala partner here, just based on how today has played out, but I don't feel particularly strongly about it at this point.

I would like to see more content from Vyse, but I'm not about to lynch him just based around the way he voted. essentially, I think Mala is a lot more likely to be scum based around play as opposed to Vyse at this point.

[pieguyn]

sure. here's what I'm thinking about atm:

Yeah, mala and I have like dead similar reads. Scum is most definitely going at her wagon. Time to rethink it. Also, Sthar's read's are very similar, I believe.

this feels more like a weak attempt to misdirect off Mala than a town player actually believing what they're saying. the first problem here is obvious. look at this and then look at his reads list:

jasonT1981
Save The Dragons

Malakittens
sthar8
Trojan Horse
Pieguyn

SleepyKrew

VysePresident

Deltawave
Egg

Votecount 2.2:

Malakittens (3)- Save The Dragons, pieguyn, SleepyKrew
VysePresident (2)- Trojan Horse,

Egg

DeltaWave (2)- Boonskiies, Malakittens
Egg (1)- sthar8

Not voting (3)- jasonT1981, VysePresident,

DeltaWave

but, OK. I could maybe see a town player thinking this and choosing to reevaluate. but that brings us to the second problem: he's saying this without naming any names on the wagon he doesn't like, or putting any follow-through into this thought at all. he's not actually reevaluating here. he supposedly thinks this, but as far as I can tell, the only indication he's factoring this in to his reads _at all_ was 991 where he switches to DW, which hardly means shit given he had DW as scum anyway.

he's not critically analyzing the scum reads on Mala here. it's nothing more than a throwaway statement.

/shrug

My team feels that Mala wouldn't put the effort into defending herself as she is if she was scum. Way too much effort. This is town mala. This was from Ika's perspective mainly, but GuyInFreezer still believes Mala is town for similar reasons.

this reasoning for town reading Mala is completely ass-backwards. suppose we've lynched scum on D1, as we've done here. scum now only has 2 members remaining and town has the upper hand.

so: who cares more about their survival? scum, who need to last 4 more days with one of their partners gone and if dying today would result in a near certain loss for their team, or town, who is under a hell of a lot less pressure after a D1 scum lynch?

as I said, I hardly think Mala is scum for her effort here, but it's a really shit reason to town read her. and I hardly believe GIF in particular would buy something like this, although it sets off alarm bells regardless. this is even more so the case when none of the "effort" she's doing is objectively town and instead appears to be coming from a scum agenda (discrediting scum reads on you and bringing up a lot of irrelevant shit in order to distract).

this isn't really very strong and my team (or rather, the one person on my team helping me here) still thinks Boon might be town, but it could easily be a possibility. I'm not really getting why you were ruling it out earlier.

[pieguyn]

there's also the fact that he stayed on the TH wagon on D1 after it got serious despite NOT GIVING ANY REASON AT ALL FOR READING TH AS SCUM THE WHOLE TIME. but I suppose this in particular could make as much sense coming from town as opposed to scum. the other 2 points are more telling imo.

[pieguyn]

what is making you rule them out as a team, then?

and even if they weren't a plausible team, I'd still prefer lynching Mala today as she's a stronger scum read over attempting to guess the entire team today.

[pieguyn]

eh, I could easily see it coming from partners - and, in fact, have seen it coming from partners on at least one occasion. "too obvious to be scum together" really isn't a good argument

I might also just be completely wrong about one of my town reads. either way, I don't really think it's a good idea to try and guess the entire team at this point.

[pieguyn]

also, if it matters to anyone, this is the first time mastin and I have ever synced reads this well since this game from more than a year ago - and when mastin and I have the same view of the game, it's generally a pretty good indicator that we're on the right track. (BROseidon, Psychlone, and zmuffin were scum in that game - and sometime around D2, mastin and I had both identified BRO's fake guilty as a scum claim, identified a majority of the players as town, and were correctly suspecting Psychlone and zmuffin via POE.)

[pieguyn]

me?

mastin wanted me to

[pieguyn]

except for the fact that you're fully aware of your own meta as bussing, and had outright said in the scum QT in the game where we were partners that you think town reading partners with reasoning can be stronger than avoiding or weakly bussing them. so unless you're going to argue you'd hard bus your last scum partner on D2, in turn more likely than not screwing yourself over, buddying up to your partner in this scenario makes sense

key point here is that we shouldn't attempt to figure out the entire scum team in one shot and instead lynch the person with the greatest certainty to be scum

[pieguyn]

Pie my major problem with you at the moment is im dammned if I do or dammned if I don't. I'm defending myself so i must be trying to survive which makes me more like scum! If I decided to roll up and die you would still think I'm scum. It's freaking dumb.

............

i literally just said i don't think you're scum for trying to survive

[pieguyn]

@Pie - Unless you can link more than one game where that proves to be true for ScumMala, then our read is perfectly justifiable and you are just bs and confbiasing. Don't care if it's activity reasons, that's how a lot of people town read me, based off of my activity.

and this is also fucking hilarious

let me write it in capital letters. I DON'T THINK YOU ARE MORE LIKELY SCUM FOR YOUR READS ALIGNING WITH MALA'S. my point was simply that your interactions with her could easily enough be scum x scum, and thus that ruling you/her out as a team is dumb. and regardless, I don't need to fucking cite meta to back up every single reason I use for a scum read. you're literally claiming here that I can't push you as scum over this unless I cite meta to back it up. are you fucking kidding me?

[pieguyn]

for the record, my explanation re: Egg was just a quick explanation of why I'm currently thinking Boon's interactions with Mala might make sense as scum x scum, but I haven't put much thought into it nor do I think it makes him explicitly more likely to be scum. if Mala flips scum, I would go back and check all the interactions in-depth.

me/my team are disagreeing slightly over who her partner is. mastin thought it was SK last time we talked about this, I don't really have a good guess (this was before SK voted Mala, so......)

[pieguyn]

I gotta say that my primary deterrent on the Mala wagon is how it feels like everybody is talking about wanting to be on it except obvtown Boon. Couple that with not getting the case and my top scumread being on the wagon and I'm not really inclined to push it much.

the tl;dr of it is that her play this game day just isn't coming from town. none of it.

she's spent a large majority of this game day trying to make sure everyone in this game is aware that my read on her is untrustworthy bc I don't have enough experience reading her correctly. instead of an actual town approach, like, for example, actually addressing the reasons for her being scum, or actually *scumhunting*, we're seeing her do the "create as much noise as possible and hope no one realizes that's what I'm doing" routine.

but, OK. let's move onto her actual play. the first problem is that a majority of the arguments she's pushing are *objectively wrong*, and are done so in a way that it's explicitly scum motivated. the textbook example is that writing someone's push off as "tunneling" is one of the easiest ways for scum to discredit pushes made on them (hint: I'm not tunneling). the other one is that she keeps saying that mastin is scum reading her *solely* because she voted TH at the end of D1 when that is incorrect (mastin's scum read on her, similarly to mine, is based on her approach this game day and near the end of the last game day - which includes the vote on TH, but it's not about the fact she had voted TH as opposed to the way it was actually done, but regardless, that isn't a major point in my read on her). when I told her as much, her response was to........ completely ignore me and continue pushing that mastin's was scum reading her solely because she voted TH at the end of D1.

/golfclap

this is *another* way in which I don't see her approach today coming from town. instead of an actual town reaction, like actually engaging me on my/mastin's reasons for her being scum or trying to walk me through in-depth why I'm wrong about her, what we're seeing here is scum just repeating the same bullshit argument over and over despite it being blatantly wrong and hoping people accept it as truth without thinking critically.

when someone pushes shit that's objectively wrong, and SHOULD BE SO to anyone who is reading the game, and then blatantly ignores people who tell them they're objectively wrong, it's a pretty good sign said arguments are not coming from a town place. basically all of her posting falls into this. she's not critically analyzing the game because she doesn't have to fucking critically analyze the game: she knows what conclusions she wants to push and is making the evidence fit her conclusion, as opposed to critically thinking about what *actually* happened in the game.

there's also the problem of her Delta read, which is extremely hypocritical. she should know her reason for reading him as scum (pushing a 3rd wagon near the end of the day) isn't a good reason for reading him as scum, yet pushes it anyway. hmmmm...... I WONDER WHY?

AFAICT Egg is still a fantastic lynch. The only argument I've seen for him being town amounts to WIFOM.

it's not WIFOM, it's basic common sense

if you see a L-1 wagon on your scum partner, and there's less than a minute until deadline runs out and a no lynch occurs, what do you do? even discounting some of the nuances behind it - no lynch on D1 (or, specifically, the first no lynch in the game) is functionally the same for scum as a mislynch as it still takes them to 3 more mislynches required to win instead of 4, barring PR shenanigans, and it's also strategically better as town gains fuck all when it comes to useful information rather than a scum flip (which is pretty fucking good in terms of information) - you just don't fucking needlessly hammer your scum partner.

it's bad play if he was scum, and I'm not ruling it out entirely, but at this point I'm working under the assumption that Egg isn't a fucking idiot who'd shoot himself in the foot. if it becomes relevant again later, I'd consider it again.

[pieguyn]

I gave my reasons why I feel that Pie's read on me shouldn't be trusted completely because she's so confident that I'll flip scum that she's strongarming my lynch and not doubting the fact that she can be wrong in it.

except I told you that I was analyzing your posts objectively and just not seeing how they could make sense from a town POV - and that I'd be open to discussion if you tried to actually TELL me why I was wrong or what I was missing here.

STOP BS'ING THE ARGUMENT YOU WANT TO PUSH HOPING NO ONE ACTUALLY GOES BACK AND READS IT

[pieguyn]

Because her teammates have a better track record than her in reading me. The one who used to be bad in the past was Mara, but I think she's improved since then, but not too certain. There's at least two people out of four on her team who can read me. Notscience is one and the other is Mastin. So her as town I would think she would rely on all of her team mates reads on me instead of just one, but it turns out timely enough that Mastin decides to shine her read is after the whole D1 stuff goes down.

you seem to be completely ignoring my response to this, btw

again, you're just repeating the same bullshit argument hoping people accept it as truth without reading or analyzing the game objectively

IT'S NOT BECAUSE HE WAS EXPLORING HIS OPTION FOR ANOTHER LYNCH.

IT'S THE TIMING AND THE WAY HE WENT ABOUT IT.

the problem with this is, you just said as much: it was a flashwagon that happened at the 11th hour before the deadline. why do you think DW would really care about getting a claim from/reevaluate his read on Boon when the Boon wagon was an attempt at a last-minute swap?

it really just amounts to DW attempting to lynch outside of {TH, Thor} bc he didn't think either were scum, which isn't really scummy, and you should know as much. the lack of being able to get a claim is moreso due to outside factors than anything DW did.

[pieguyn]

oh, the other thing I'm getting out of this is that Boon is likely not scum with Mala. actually, I doubt Boon is scum at all at this point (even if Mala flips town), but I don't feel strongly about it

[pieguyn]

I hope everyone realizes that there's like no fucking resistance to my wagon at all. If I put this FoS as a vote I'd be at L-1, with Jason, Vyse & Delta not giving a stance on how they feel. The only people really opposing my lynch right now is Boons and to an extent Sthar. So either there's major fucking bussing going on right now or this is just a bullshit fucking wagon that's on town.

mastin wanted me to point out that this is wrong as well

she says the reason Mala's wagon even got to 4 votes is bc I've been fighting really hard to *get* it that large in the first place. and that, in actuality, there is a lot of resistance to the Mala wagon - most of the people on it are ambivalent and Boon, among other people, are defending her. I personally would point more towards the counterwagon on Delta as evidence that there is indeed resistance towards a Mala wagon here.

[pieguyn]

quarter-prod dodge

[pieguyn]

Looking back over today's events, it looks like I must have been asleep at the start of the day. Boon was attacked by STD and SK for not interacting with Thor, and apparently, I didn't pay any attention to that. (And this is something I really should have paid attention to; apparently, Boon didn't mention Thor at all during Day 1.)

I've seen this before (including a game where I was the final vote in 3P LYLO, factored it in to my final vote, and voted wrong. the only time I've ever been in 3p LYLO ) and I'm fairly sure it doesn't actually have a greater-than-average chance of coming from scum. the most recent example of this is the game Boon mentioned earlier where he and I were scum and a random town player (eektor) wound up having no interactions at all with Boon until like D4. it usually winds up being completely random who people have no interactions with

I think he didn't interact with you (or Micc) at all, either, save for one read given in 262, although I might be wrong given I just looked in ISO. and to be fair, Boon was V/LA for the last part of D1 when one would generally be expected to comment on Thor if they had anything to say.

[pieguyn]

what do you think of 1164?

*IF* Mala is scum here, this doesn't look like something someone says about a partner I think. it looks more like scum going out of their way to put effort into a town read on a town player in order to buddy/manipulate them than scum inventing reasons to town read a partner.

[pieguyn]

You said this about me yesterday so...

How much of your reads are coming from mastin?

I'm....... pretty sure I didn't? my read on you was mostly bc I thought your push on Egg was forced. it sure as hell isn't the same as this, nor was it anywhere near as strong.

the Mala read is my read, but mastin shares basically the exact same read for the exact same reasons. besides that if anything comes from mastin (or anywhere else, but mastin is the only other person on my team reading this game) I say as much.

So under pressure with a minute left on the clock, you find it impossible that he didnt consider day phase math. Kay.

are you fucking serious? you're essentially saying Egg hammering is WIFOM and backing it up by saying Egg might happen to be be completely naive and clueless as scum, so it might as well just be WIFOM - rather than considering the simple explanation (that Egg might actually happen to have just been misguided town!). if you think Egg actually didn't take any time at all when Thor was, you know, actually being ran up, or in the long period where TH and Thor were both equally viable and it was uncertain who would get lynched, to determine how to handle it, you're playing the wrong game.

I don't think you're scum, but I do think you're biased here because of the way Egg was pushing you earlier and because of how bad his soft defense of Thor looks, and as a result you aren't objectively looking at the whole picture with respect to how the end of D1 played out. him hammering isn't WIFOM, and it will never be.

[pieguyn]

I'm just fucking done at this point. Apparently I can't be town that's putting effort into trying to find townreads. I guess that is NOT an option.

if you were actually reading my posts, you would see that I didn't actually call you scum for your post about Boon - rather, I'm just saying that *IF* you're scum here, that post would look more like scum buddying town than scum defending a partner.

here's the thing. I've been telling you stuff like this over and over: I am fucking trying to see your posts as town. and every time you called me out for "confbiasing" or "tunneling" or whatever, I've always elaborated on how I'm not tunneling you here, what I want to see from you if you're town, and/or clarifying posts such as this one. and every time, you continue to ignore it and instead continue making assertions that are false.

look at it objectively. you claim I'm tunneling you because of a post that YOU MISREAD, and appear to not give a shit when I correct you on it and continue claiming I'm tunneling you anyway. you ask me to elaborate more on why I think you're scum, I elaborate on why I don't see your play here coming from town, and you proceed to completely ignore it. the only thing that leaves me with is that you just don't care and are continuing to spin this narrative that you have going here because you're scum. why am I supposed to think you actually cared about working with me to get me to fix my read on you there?

all I can say is, again, that if you want me to reconsider my read on you, there needs to be a good reason for it

[pieguyn]

@Pie - people who have played with ScumMala and TownMala a lot more, like Ika, is not a good enough case? You are ignoring people who have more experience with her. How is that not being "conf biased"?

likewise, you're ignoring basically everything I'm posting about her, so we're at an impasse

(although I've attempted to engage you over it - I elaborated why I don't think "effort" is a good reason for town reading her, and afaict you didn't engage me any further - so... yay?)

[pieguyn]

in fact, if you were reading carefully, you'd notice my last post directed to Mala was exactly that: trying (for the 6th or 7th time) to explain to her where I'm coming from and why I'm pushing her in the way that I am, the end result hopefully being to get something from her to make me reconsider

just because I push people aggressively doesn't mean I'm not thinking critically about it

[pieguyn]

If you had to bullet point the key points... why is this a better lynch than DW.

1160 (first quote) is a somewhat tl;dr version of it

plus I think DW is somewhat likely to be town for a few reasons (most recently, 1089)

[pieguyn]

who does Tammy think is scum if it's not Mala?

(also fair warning, if this has anything to do with "genuine frustration", I've thought about that already and I don't really think it's a good reason for town reading her. to the extent it's done here, I maintain it's really really easy to fake as scum - and, in fact, I have faked similar amounts of frustration in my last scum game in response to multiple people pushing me, although I suppose it's not exactly the same bc their reasons were pretty awful and they actually *were* tunneling on it without critically thinking, but regardless, I knew it'd get people to read me as town. and no, before Boon/Mala say anything over this, I'm not claiming Mala is scum for getting frustrated, just that she's not town for it and that if I town read her it'd be for other reasons.)

[pieguyn]

My point is, yesterday you told me that my actions were just not town motivated, and my reaction was to think you were nuts. I'm not gonna take that as a scumtell since I know that as of last day phase, it wasn't.

as I said, my reasoning for scum reading you on D1 was completely different than my reasoning for scum reading Mala here. in your case, I thought you were attempting to coast while taking weak jabs at people in order to look like you were scum hunting, and I thought your push on Egg was forced. in Mala's case, she is pushing copious amounts of arguments that are objectively wrong, despite the evidence in the game thread clearly indicating as much, not giving a shit when corrected on it, and doing so in a way that has explicit scum motivation - and on top of that, the only scum hunting she's done recently AT ALL (distinct from you - you had scum hunting, but I found most of it weak. in her case, it literally just isn't there) has been the push on DW and the reasoning she used for it was hypocritical.

/golfclap

key point here is that if you examine the reasoning, it's not the same thing at all, even if the overall conclusion is the same (and you'll notice that my - correct - scum read on Thor drew a similar conclusion. the way he was pushing people and asking questions here wasn't fucking coming from town, especially after jason claimed bodyguard and he kept pushing him anyway)

Sure. Maybe I'm biased because of how scummy egg was day1. But I'm not the only one seeing this, so it's probably not personal bias. And both you and he have made the point that it doesn't look like a planned bus. I agree with that. It looks like a snap decision under pressure.

I think egg's actually anti-town day1 coupled with his thor associatives are more solid than anything else on the table.

as I said, Egg had a large amount of time to figure out what he should do in a situation like that - iirc, there were at least 48 hours or so from the time Thor claimed and we started wagoning him again until the time he got lynched, plus there was a pretty long period where Thor and TH were both at L-2/L-1 or so and either could have been lynched

pushing that Egg made a snap decision under pressure relies on the assumption that he didn't take any time at all when all this was happening to consider what he'd actually do. I'm mostly interested in why you think he wouldn't actually do this.

[pieguyn]

Right, that's not my point. I agree with a lot of that, but thing like being wrong about in-thread events and being defensive are not explicitly scummy. What I was responding to was your argument that mala's response to your case was inherently scummy.

you're missing the fucking point

Mala: "mastin is scum reading me because I voted TH D1, tell her to reread plz"
me: "no, mastin is scum reading you because of your play in general"
Mala: "mastin is scum reading me because I voted TH D1, tell her to reread plz"
me: "no, I just fucking told you mastin is scum reading you because of your play in general"
Mala: "...... DERP DERP NOPE"

that is..... basically the gist of what happened. so, tell me what the fuck is town about that thought process. I literally told her she was wrong about this, and she blatantly ignored it and continued pushing it anyway. she doesn't actually fucking believe she's saying. she's just repeating that mastin's scum read on her comes entirely from her voting TH on D1 and hoping people accept it as truth without actually rereading the game. and the thing with this is, this is explicitly scum motivated: by downplaying mastin's read on her, she's hoping people find it less compelling than they would normally.

and she does it again:

Mala: "you're tunneling me, you're taking effort and using it as a scum tell"
me: "I'm not tunneling you, I don't think you're scum for your effort. I just will town read you for other reasons if I town read you here, since I think effort is fairly null."
Mala: "OMG nope, you're tunneling me, you don't consider that I might just fucking be town trying to read Boon correctly."
me: "I literally fucking said I don't think you're scum for your read on Boon - rather, what I said only applies *IF* you actually *ARE* scum."
Mala: "NOPE"

it's fucking intentional, and it's a fairly textbook scum tactic. that's not a fucking town method of thought, and how it's not obvious this is what she's doing here is beyond me. these are not the only two instances where she's done this, and if you read through my posts, you'll see that all of it does, indeed, have explicit scum motivation behind it. she absolutely has reasons to pull this shit as scum.

I'm sure he did have a plan. But he comes back into the thread to try to get Fen to hammer trojan and get his scumbuddy off the hook for the day and/or look like he was trying to prevent a no-lynch for towncred, Fen responds with a logical argument that he didn't anticipate, and then he's under pressure from me and Fen with very little time left on the clock, and he decides to hammer his scumbuddy to look like town. It's not a long logical leap.

On the other hand "you're biased because egg's day 1 is scummy; I'm ignoring that because he was the last second hammer" is blowing my mind. All I can say in response is that I don't think a lawnmower blade can generate enough lift to get the whole bookcase off the ground.

like, here

you're assuming Egg didn't stop to consider that people might actually make actual *arguments* in order to back up what lynch they want. why? how the fuck do you think he thinks mafia is played? and you're also assuming Egg "looking like town" is more important than outright saving his scum partner Thor, when he had basically no reason to hammer. again, why?

I generally feel your reasoning here relies on the assumption that Egg is a shit player as scum who doesn't think. /shrug

[pieguyn]

TH, why's Tammy townreading Mala?

Okay, Tammy says she thinks Mala is town based on this post...

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

I can finally flesh out my townread more on Boons because the game I was carefully watching just ended.

So the reason why I was against the push in Jason's D1 play and why my townread on Boons strengthened was due to this game. If you read his ISO he was attacked early D1 because of his play. Lurking, not contributing much etc and then later on used for mislynch bait. His reactions that game reminded me of how he reacted here.

... and based on Mala's frustration in general. But again, she says she hasn't been reading this game as closely as she would like.

please don't buy that shit. again - the last scum game I had, I deliberately went out of my way to meta dive someone who was being universally scum read and I came to a genuine conclusion that their town meta was a lot different from their scum meta, and thus that they were obviously town in that game bc they weren't playing in any way to their scum meta. and I spent the majority of the game defending a town player with arguments that were pretty fucking solid, and under normal circumstances (read: that town not being derp) should have outright derailed the lynch if anyone was so much as thinking about the game.

being genuine about town reads as scum isn't difficult to fake.

[pieguyn]

I already proved that Mastin has not read the whole game. You kept saying she was reading me as scum from my play in general so I was asking you when/what post that was. Which you never answered. All you kept saying was general play in general which is non-specific answer.

I got frustrated with you so I was trying to narrow that down. you kept shoving she's scumreading you due to general play down my fucking throat. That's why I'm basically ignoring you because I'm just not wanting to be bothered to work with someone who doesn't want to take the bloody time to understand me.

no, no this is not what you did

you asked me for mastin's read on you and then immediately assumed it came entirely from the fact you voted TH instead of Thor at the end of D1. and you didn't ask mastin exactly why she was scum reading you, either - rather, you used the fact that she didn't read the whole game as an excuse to get out of it.

like

this is everything you said about mastin's read on you:

Spoiler:

I haven't fully read up, but I will when I get home tonight. I'm about to go out to dinner.

Pie -- now you have said that Mastin is following/reading the game. Can I get an updated read on me? Mastin is probably one of the few on the site that can read me flawlessly without error. (Well maybe one or two games she's read me wrong) in regards to your team i would suggest getting her full read on me. That means she's should be reading my ISO/interactions and D1 play. I'm not sure if she's just reading the end of D1 or where she was read from and too. Between you, notty and Mara each of you hve had games that read me wrong full stop. Pie you seem to read me wrong, you ended up dayvigging last game and I think there's been another game that you were off base. Notty also misread me during that game and Mara used to be wrong at reading me. So what im saying is between your team, mastin should be the one with the moe influencal one with a read.

So what im saying is between your team, mastin should be the one with the moe influencal one with a read.

yeah, about that.

guess what mastin's read on you is? she feels preeeetty fucking strongly about it, and I agree.

What I was asking has she read the game fully or is she just reading off of my end game of D1?

Also Pie seriously your tunnel on me pretty much all game is crap. You didn't consult with mara or Mastin when I reached out to you before, but now it's pretty clear Mastin has a read that deciding to fit your bill to a T.

I want Mastin to read from The start of D1 and not just the end of D1 pie. That a way to gain a flawed read and not an accurate one.

I want Mastin to read from The start of D1 and not just the end of D1 pie. That a way to gain a flawed read and not an accurate one.

didn't you just say it was just her fitting her read to my read?

regardless, I'll ask her, but she feels you are "certainly scum" just based on your posts today/at the end of D1, so I don't particularly understand why you think her read on you would be different if she read the whole game.

(this is another post I don't see a town approach in, btw. you're essentially claiming that mastin's read is invalid bc she hasn't read the game - again, trying to discredit. /shrug)

I'm not trying to discredit her. I'm trying to get her to gain a more accurate read than she has currently. Her read is in fact wrong, but that's because she's scum reading me because of my unwillingness to hammer Thor, which it's unreasonable for her to believe that my beliefs got in the way to not wanting to hammer.

I'm trying to interact with you so I can engage you and try to help you where you are reading me wrong. I couldn't figure out why you were scum reading me in FakeGod's game nor did I have the time/enegery/willpower to care to that game after the attacks during it. That game state WASNT fun for me, however, this game I still have the opportunity to see where you are astray.

Whereas I would like Mastin to read from the start of D1. I think just basing off the fact my actions at the end of D1 is a way to get an incorrect read. So what I'm saying IS you need to reset and so does Mastin.

I didn't say her read is invalid. I want her to read from D1 start to now and see if it changes. She's wrong, you are wrong. You both need to stop and face the music.

there is no engagement here. you just kept claiming her scum read on you was based entirely around the end of D1 despite the fact I was telling you to the contrary - and you never did specifically ask her precisely where her scum read on you came from. I also see you trying to claim that her read was "biased" because I was reading you as scum, again not engaging her over it but searching for reasons to discredit it.

so.... yay?

[pieguyn]

like, in that entire series of posts, you NEVER attempted to actually ask her specifically where her read on you was coming from.

you just kept claiming it was based around the end of D1 and telling her to read the whole game. I don't see you asking her this or attempting to figure out exactly where her scum read on you came from, even after I explicitly told you you were wrong. like, I could maybe see this if you had asked her a bunch of stuff and you just happened not to specifically ask that question, but there really is no solid engagement at all there.

[pieguyn]

so tl;dr you're fucking lying

[pieguyn]

@sthar:

I really don't see the point in arguing any further over this, but if you're going to attempt to deconstruct my argument, and you completely miss what my argument actually is, don't fucking act surprised/indignated when I correct you on it. regardless, I still don't agree with what you're saying, and I don't see either of us convincing the other over this at this rate either.

[pieguyn]

yes

I answered that

then you proceeded to assume it was entirely based around the fact you voted TH instead of Thor at the end of D1

and when I claimed that this was, in fact, not the case, you completely ignored me and instead continued claiming it was entirely based around the fact you voted TH instead of Thor at the end of D1

if you actually wanted to engage mastin over her your read on you, you'd actually do it instead of trying to make everyone in the game believe that was all she had on you.

[pieguyn]

except mastin wasn't reading the game, let alone scum reading you, at that point, and notsci (the only person who had read any part of this game at that point) had told me you were town - and I had explicitly said I was not interested in pushing you that day because of notsci's read on you.

so how exactly is that relevant here?

[pieguyn]

you can't be this dense

mastin
was
not
scum
reading
you
at
that
point
in
the
game

so you claiming this was you reaching out to me in response to me/mastin reading you incorrectly is bullshit

[pieguyn]

.......

this entire argument was about mastin's scum read on you and the way you reacted to it. you claimed you were specifically asking mastin about HER SCUM READ ON YOU. so what does a post you made asking her for reads _before_ she was scum reading you have to do with anything?

[pieguyn]

so mastin wanted me to convey that she agrees with me that Mala is really really obviously scum

she also wanted me to tell you

@BOON

that ika town reading Mala doesn't mean anything - because Mala _admitted herself_ that she has a lot of experience reading her, and she most decidedly is not. soooo

[pieguyn]

o also, I don't think DW's stance towards Thor is inconsistent but I'll let him explain it instead of doing it myself.

[pieguyn]

I'm pondering a Delta vote now...

no don't do this please. as he said in his response, it was moreso about his teammates collectively thinking Thor wasn't the correct lynch (which he alluded to when he first voted TH) - GreyICE town reading him isn't inconsistent with this.

and besides, I really do believe (as he said) him commenting on it was more a throwaway comment than anything

[pieguyn]

On the thor wagon there is:

Me who I know is town
Fen who was town
Pie who appears really townie and I cannot fathom at this point bussing
sthar8 who picked a really odd time to bus his partner if he's scum
SK is meh
Egg who seemed to be reading the game critically D1
Trojan who was the counter wagon

Off there's
Jason who could be a bus target by thor but probably isn't
Delta who seems town but also hasn't done much
Vyse who's done like nothing
Mala who I have discussed already
Boon who keeps poking in to take random potshots and deflect attacks due to meta but who really isn't actually doing anything

For me, the decision to townread the players on the Thor wagon wasn't arbitrary or simply because they voted thor. If you get lynched and are town it's not like we're going to ignore that fact. For now, though, I legit haven't seen a case on Egg that I liked, nor a case on anyone else on the Thor wagon. I've seen reasons to scumread you and Boon, I'm wary of Vyse kind of fluttering about (for all I know he walked into the game, saw two wagons and voted on the one that wasn't his scum buddy), I'm kind of reading Delta as town but I'm also unsure.

ftr, I agree with almost everything here. this is pretty much exactly where I'm at with reads except I think Boon is probably town.

it really doesn't make sense for a lot of the people on Thor D1 to be scum, and I think Delta off the wagon is likely town for reasons I've been explaining elsewhere. leaving: {Mala, Vyse, with an outside chance of SKrew}.

[pieguyn]

hey Mala

step up and respond to 1309 instead of walking away. I dare you. you're caught, and you know it.

[pieguyn]

Still wavering between Delta and Mala. Long work day today, but I'll try to make a decision tonight.

I'll

bind myself and submit to your will

do anything if it'll get you to vote Mala here. ~

I really, really, really, really don't think Delta is scum. compared to Mala who, in addition to everything else this game day, just blatantly lied and is hoping she can skate by without anyone calling her on it.

[pieguyn]

<3

[pieguyn]

I'll compromise on a mala vote if it means pie's not in crazy tunnel land tomorrow.

if Mala flips town, I'm more than happy to step back and reevaluate

I'm very very cautious about strong arming reads in games where I've been proven to be wrong. plus the only reason I really pushed so hard today was bc I feel really really strongly about this (and I don't have any other scum reads I feel strongly about).

[pieguyn]

What? 'Any case that isn't mine is stupid, and I will justify that with mindblowing leaps of badlogic and shoutlouder' is really annoying to play with, and it's making me doubt my townread on you and challenging my ability to engage with the game. Tell mastin that you're channeling her from Sabotage and she can tell you how that worked out.

you were the one who kept ignoring what the reasoning behind my Mala read actually was and instead handwaved it because my conclusion at the end of all of it was that she wasn't playing like town - which essentially amounts to you saying my read is invalid bc I incorrectly scum read you at one point D1 - so, yay?

/shrug

and your line of reasoning re: Egg wasn't any better than all the previous iterations of it where it all worked on the assumption that Egg wouldn't have been thinking critically as scum. I get that you think this is possible, but I usually rely on the assumption scum players have a pretty good idea of what they're doing most of the time (thus giving me cause to question scum plays that, in my opinion, look "too obvious" and/or could just as easily come from misguided town), so I don't find it convincing - and since this is more us disagreeing on playstyle-related issues, I don't see either of us convincing the other about it either way.

either way, as I said, I won't do this tomorrow *if* it turns out I'm wrong here

[pieguyn]

jason not being CC'ed points to him-town, imo. unless it turns out there's just no protective role in this setup, in which case we'll likely figure it out when massclaim happens

[pieguyn]

that claim is bullshit. for several reasons including the fact that she didn't even appear to have a scum read on SK at that point in the game.

lynch it with fire. under usual circumstances I'd consider leaving a vig claim alive, but that won't work here for reasons which I'll explain in my next post, wanted to get this out immediately

[pieguyn]

So. Mala's claim. Hmm. In a normal setup where there can't be a SK, that's actually a very provable claim. That is, unless scum keep RBing her or she claims as much. I dunno. Pie, what do you think?

first off, I don't think there's any universe where scum would RB Mala here - I could maybe see it, but her main scum read D1 was Fen who is known to be town.

but, OK. suppose Mala actually is town and scum did RB Mala here. now that she claimed, what exactly is going to happen? they'll just RB her again and we'll be stuck in the ass tomorrow with no additional knowledge of whether Mala's claim is actually legit or not. this will likely continue happening as long as the RB is alive. so I don't really think leaving her alive would do anything. this is the case even if we lynch scum today (since if Mala is scum here there almost assuredly isn't a scum roleblocker) unless Mala is town and we do manage to hit the RB (which I'm not really counting on).

there's also the issue of shooting SK. she apparently: didn't declare a read on him D1, then saw it fit to shoot him N1. I'm OK with that. but the thing is, after that she apparently figured she got RB'ed and... decided SK WASN'T scum anymore for whatever reason... on D2? (972)

you usually wouldn't shoot someone unless you thought they were scum, and you wouldn't think someone is LESS likely scum after getting fucking roleblocked. the progression here doesn't make any sense. if she actually had the reads she had, she likely should have shot Egg or Delta instead. I'm meh on the crumb; I could see it going either way. it's either coming from scum who just posted that bc they thought they would as town, and then went back and chose their vig target bc they saw it as a viable fake-crumb, or it's legit, so I'm not reading much into it.

[pieguyn]

actually reading SK's post it turns out I'm wrong about Mala not giving a read on him D1, she had him as town.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[pieguyn]

also, if you're a town roleblocker and blocked Mala, claim. tia

[pieguyn]

yeah, it's even worse than I thought it was knwoing she had him as town

she went from town reading him D1 -> thinking he was likely enough scum to vig him N1 -> NOT thinking he was scum anymore after being RB'ed D2. ???

[pieguyn]

also I'd like to reiterate that "x-shot vig, failed every night" is one of the easiest throwaway claims for scum and not an auto-town claim like a lot of people generally think. not saying this makes her scum, although I do think she's scum for other claim-related reasons (namely it not fitting with her reads and scum conveniently RB'ing her N1 despite it making no sense)

[pieguyn]

If there's a roleblocker involved, it's a town RB; there was no reason for scum to RB mala.

hence why *if* it's a town RB they need to claim right the fuck now instead of staying silent for *insert shit reason here*

[pieguyn]

OK so at this point, everyone alive has either claimed VT or posted without claiming the block on Mala. so it wasn't a town RB who would have blocked her here. (and fair warning, I will PL the fuck out of anyone who attempts to claim RB sometime later down the road as opposed to claiming it now - claiming it now is the theoretically correct play)

[pieguyn]

indeed

[pieguyn]

Pie, that is a disappointing course of action. It seems to me that outing a power role if it exists D2 seems like a bad idea when it is not necessary that we do so. It would neither confirm nor deny Mala's guilt, while her vigging would.

the problem is, the entire assumption that her role is confirmable relies on it actually being town who blocked her here. if she's town and scum RB'ed her, then we're essentially stuck because they will almost certainly chain RB her every night after this, at which point we have no way of confirming it either way.

I'm pretty sure town RB claiming is the theoretically correct play here. we'd wind up with {whoever it is + Mala} as likely town if it's the case.

[pieguyn]

are you actually serious? if town claims it then Mala is practically guaranteed to be able to confirm her claim tonight.

obviously, if she *doesn't*, then lynch it with fire

[pieguyn]

@pie: we can still wait one night though to see if that is the case. Tomorrow I'm more open for the RB claiming, and we can go from there.

who do you want to lynch at this point if not Mala?

it is true that waiting another day is another way to figure out whether town or scum RB'ed her here. I completely disagree with the viewpoint that early claims = antitown, though (in fact I think claiming earlier than most people usually claim is generally pro-town as opposed to anti-town), and I would rather have sorted it out ASAP.

add to that I don't really have any other strong scum reads and I'm fairly sure Delta is town. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[pieguyn]

So boon, really. I'm up in the air about SK but wouldn't really feel bad about him dying. other than that I agree, I'm kind of not sure. Bins kind of due to PoE would also be a thing.

hmmm

the problem I'm running into with my reads is that the person I think makes the most sense as scum with Mala is Bins, and I kind of wanted to see her catch up first before trying to read her. I suppose that's where I'd want to lynch, though (especially considering that's basically the same argument for leaving Mala alive).

give me a bit to look over Boon again

[pieguyn]

@STD: imo Boon's defense of Mala makes him likely to be town here. I alluded to it earlier, but I don't really think he makes sense as scum with Mala based on the way Mala was treating him before - it read more like scum trying to put effort into buddying/manipulating town *if* Mala is scum here.

if Mala is town I don't really see him going about defending her in the way that he did, but it's mostly gut. I think he'd be slightly more likely at the least to take advantage of it instead of WK'ing her if he was scum in that scenario.

plus I generally think most of the angles he pushed this game actually make sense. as one example, I liked his paranoia of me earlier (if you parse through it, it essentially amounts to "you know my scum game, how the fuck do you read me as scum here?" which I usually find town), it didn't really feel like he was setting up to discredit me as opposed to legitimately forming a read on me.

meh. bullet case on Boon-scum?

[pieguyn]

actually nvm I might be up for a Boon lynch today after all

[pieguyn]

I was pretty sure of Mala's guilt until the claim I actually did think Boon's defense of mala was due to them both potentially being scum. I haven't really updated that in my reads. I'm still not exactly sure where the town read on Mala comes from other than his team. I original thought his decision to defer to his team's reads to not lynch thor made him look town, considering he's doing it again wrt mala gives me a little pause.

I pretty much agree the way Boon played this is optimal for scum-Mala. I still haven't figured out if it's bc he's scum or if it's bc he's misguided.

I think his read flops on Mala and DW were really sudden, namely DW where it looked like he started pushing him based on one post that he thought was too wishy-washy. the only real reason I have for them not both being scum is Mala's posts, but I suppose it's possible she would put that much effort into town reading a partner. it could also just be her deliberately putting a false interaction

this kind of sucks bc I only have the one strong scum read on Mala and now I'm thinking I might have too many town reads. what do you make of how Mala's claim fits into her reads?

[pieguyn]

her counterargument is 'because i said so.'

no, my counterargument is that town RB should out because town RB outing is theoretically better - and *if* no town RB outs, we have a basically guaranteed scum lynch today as opposed to fucking around for a day. and you can say "lol, prs shouldn't out" all you want, but the thing is, it really is not that much of a loss - especially if it's something weak like a roleblocker and especially if it belongs to someone who isn't widely regarded as town. it is usually more useful to have the extra information on the table earlier rather than attempting to hold out with it

I don't really care to argue theory with you when you're probably going to disagree with everything I say regardless.

[pieguyn]

like, literally the only reason it might be better for town RB not to out is that if we *do* lynch scum today RB becomes op as shit with only 1 scum left

but even then you have the issue of how far it can get while still getting useful results, and what happens if it randomly gets killed without outing them (you can say "crumb" all you want, but scum are as likely to see it as town are, so it will likely to go shit after getting the first result anyway) - and since we have a bodyguard in the game, we can still do pretty well with it even if it claims

and I'd bet a fair amount that Mala is just lying here and it's all a moot point regardless

the only reason I'm not outright forcing this is bc it looks like a majority of players don't agree with me on principle on this. so, meh

[pieguyn]

there's also play reasons that factor into it due to how Thor happened D1 (ex: I'd probably quit this game if STD winds up being scum, I feel similarly about TH. I'm not quite at such a high level with jason, but I similarly feel jason is strongly town) - if you have a bunch of people who are strongly town already, you don't need to clear as many extra people on top of that in order to win.

and as I said I realize there's not much point in spending time talking about this, but the point is: it's not really as "anti-town" as you think and I'm not just ignoring you/SK talking about it

[pieguyn]

like, I don't intend to argue with you over this or anything

just please don't feel like I'm blatantly ignoring your posts. I'm not.

[pieguyn]

GJ STD

[pieguyn]

pie, you can't say that you don't care what my opinion is and then tell me to not feel like you're ignoring me. And I'm terrified that we're going into tomorrow with you having basically no scumreads but still not agreeing to reexamine your play even if you're right.

for the last time

I
don't
hard
push
reads
that
I
don't
feel
strongly
about

the only reason I fucking pushed this was so hard was because I was relatively sure she was scum. and hey, I was right?

you're the one who kept IGNORING my actual reasoning for Mala being scum and handwaving it all because my conclusion was that she was scum, and I had incorrectly read you as scum on D1. that was.... quite literally your entire response to my read despite me laying it out several fucking times: that "not playing like town" isn't a good reason for reading someone as scum because I drew the same conclusion about your play back on D1. I didn't take your read into account because you weren't fucking defending it or actually attempting to reason out why, specifically, it was wrong.

it's laughable that you're criticizing me for not taking your opinion into account when YOU are the one who was wrong here

[pieguyn]

I'm ok with that.

[pieguyn]

so my guess is on Bins for the last scum, but I'm waiting for everyone to check in first

[pieguyn]

o btw

@STHAR8:

Tell mastin that you're channeling her from Sabotage and she can tell you how that worked out.

I didn't think it was fit to post this at that point in the game, but mastin had asked me to tell you in response to this that you can "go [expletive] yourself for resisting the Mala wagon" and that "the appropriate metaphor is *you* in Sabotage for *Cephrir*". she also, more recently, said in response to Mala flipping scum: "[expletive] you, sthar8, sincerely from a rather ticked off mastin" and that "you are an absolute asshole, so shut the fuck up and listen to pie".

:3

[pieguyn]

now with that out of the way

Am I too paranoid? Regardless, if we do have a roleblocker, I think they should remain silent for now.

I don't think it's very likely scum did this. there's a huge chance they'd risk actually being roleblocked at some point in the game. plus we still have jason alive so 1. they couldn't kill him even if they wanted to (unless it's just jason, which I still find very unlikely) 2. as such, they don't gain that much by actually outing the RB.

as before, I'm all for a potential RB claiming today if a majority of people agree to ti

[pieguyn]

*it

[pieguyn]

I didn't copy-paste it. the wording is almost the same, but not copy-pasted.

[pieguyn]

yes

(unrelated to the game, in one of my modded games a while back someone copy-pasted part of their role PM and I had to modkill them over it. >.> it was even worse than it'd usually be bc he was scum and town got an extra lynch off it which almost allowed them to win the game. I sat there with my mouth open for at least a minute when he did that.)

[pieguyn]

welp

vote: Bins

[pieguyn]

eeeeeeeow

RIP perfect game.

[pieguyn]

in case it's not obvious already, jason target STD

[pieguyn]

are you fucking kidding me

[pieguyn]

no one lynch anyone until I get a chance to reread

we're having a disagreement on the last scum. I think Boon, mastin says SK. I don't really think jason is scum here, but I wanna reread/think about it more.

[pieguyn]

I don't recall town reading Boon recently? our Boon town read was primarily mastin's.

(on phone right now so can't talk in depth)

[pieguyn]

yeah but after thinking about it more I didn't feel aa good about it as I did before. there were also other things that made me think it could be Boon. and POE

I'm not sure at this point - as I said I need to reread and solidify it one way or the other after the semester ends

[pieguyn]

vote: SK

[pieguyn]

Scumslip?

yeah, uhhh

I usually don't find scum slips compelling but yeah. wanna see what jason says here

(although, full disclosure, this is really the only thing making me think he might be scum atm)

[pieguyn]

stuff like that is moreso why I think bodyguard is a terrible role than anything else. *if* jason is town here, he's essentially in a position where he's fucked if he does (protecting a scum read) and fucked if he doesn't (what's happening to him now).

and I'm really not sure if most people bother thinking about what happens if they die and then can't push their top scum read

again it's moreso why bodyguard is a shit role: you get punished for using it effectively

[pieguyn]

plus *if* he is town here I find it unlikely he really gave a shit about who he targeted, given it appears he'd be under the impression he'd get blocked anyway

[pieguyn]

k

jason's town and we're not lynching him today

[pieguyn]

1. jason's recent posts are strongly town. including the obvious reason that, duh, jason-scum killing STD would just claim he was blocked and leave it at that instead of...... what we're seeing here. it's fairly obvious his actions here would not have come from scum, and I think pushing him just because he didn't protect STD is a naive course of action.

2. this setup would be unbalanced as fuck if jason isn't town here. even discounting the fact that he didn't get CC'ed, 2-3 roles is standard in a mini normal. with jason town, we have

roleblocker + bodyguard + *unclaimed role*

with jason scum, we have

roleblocker + ???

it would be pretty much impossible to balance this at this point if jason isn't town here. there's basically no town power (I'm assuming that any relevant PR would have claimed by now, but no one has. thus I feel pretty confident there's only one unclaimed PR out there, *at most* - but even discounting this, it'd be difficult to balance this without jason as town) mastin agrees with me on this - she also says this AS A MINI NORMAL reviewer and points out that bodyguard is the go-to protective role in normal setups.

also, I want

TROJAN HORSE

to ask Tammy if she thinks jason's recent posting is anything but town. and then ask her why if she thinks jason could possibly be scum here.

[pieguyn]

His protection choices are suspect because he missed the obvious choice. I think we deserve to know how he's acted so far.

sure, I'm for this, but I think there's about a 0% chance that him not telling us how he's acting makes him scum. I just think it'd help clear things up. (as I said, I think it's fairly obvious the way he did this would not have come from scum and makes a hell of a lot more sense coming from town than it does scum.)

@pie how do you feel about this? I find it compelling.

it's not compelling bc Mala knew she was RB'ed. RB'ed actions don't show up on tracker/watcher reports, hence she can claim she targeted whoever she wants.

[pieguyn]

o also, Boon's reads list is town. it doesn't really make sense coming from scum: jason is (assuming I'm right about him being town) a really beneficial mislynch for scum, and he's sitting there going "nope" and passing up on it. he also avoids both of the other easy-ish targets (Egg and DW) to push TH of all people.

I suppose I could see it, but it's not what I would have expected scum in this position to do at all.

[pieguyn]

do you think Boon would play scum predictably or logically

except what I've seen of Boon's scum play is actually pretty straightforward. in both of his scum games I've seen, he generally pushed easy targets and it was obvious he was just following along with whoever he thought would be easy to lynch.

and even if you take the meta into account, I'm really not sure what he's trying to do if he is scum here

- Tammy thinks STD might have blocked Boon last night, given this post:

that's who I'd guess as well, but I don't know if I feel comfortable betting on it

[pieguyn]

the rest of the last 2-3 pages is all entirely semantic. TH, DW, and jason/Zach are all town, and *if* they are scum here, it's likely not for anything anyone has been accusing them of doing.

I haven't looked through sthar's Egg case yet, but at this point, SK is the only one who I don't have any kind of town read on. under usual circumstances, I'd support a massclaim, but I don't think I do here.

[pieguyn]

@pie- Do you have any kind of case on Skrew other than 'I have a townread on everyone else?' Because your townread on Egg is silly. 'I don't care to read anyone else's posts' is not a convincing case, sorry.

"your argument is invalid because you called me scum on D1" isn't a convincing case either. so, yeah. :3

my reads have shifted around. Egg is actually my backup candidate for scum if it's not SK. there were some weird interactions SK had with Thor and Mala that mastin pointed out a whiiiiiile back in our PT but I didn't post here - once I finish responding to stuff elsewhere I'll go back and pull them up

Pie, so you don't think STD legitimately blocked Mala's action on Sleepykrew? I really like the point that she didn't like about her target in case of a watcher/tracker which makes Sleepykrew, who was also near the middle of the Thor wagon, pretty obvtown.

1. Mala targeted <someone> with rolecop on N1.
2. Mala receives: no result
3. Mala knows she was RB'ed.
4. RB'ed actions don't show up on tracker or watcher reports.
5. Mala knows she wouldn't have shown up on any tracker or watcher reports N1.
6. thus, Mala can just make up whoever target she wants knowing she can't get called on it

do you disagree?

[pieguyn]

Mala claimed she vig'd SK on N1 and got roleblocked. people are saying that makes SK town, which I disagree with bc she would know she was roleblocked and so could claim she targeted whoever she wants.

[pieguyn]

don't really know, but I don't think it matters either? she claimed x-shot vig, targeted SK and it failed on N1. regardless of if she actually rolecop'd SK or not, she could just as easily lie and claim she targeted anyone in the game, given there's no retribution for doing so.

[pieguyn]

essentially it doesn't matter bc she just claimed she was blocked anyway

[pieguyn]

the tracker wouldn't have gotten that she visited nowhere if they tracked her...mala said she targeted sleepykrew, but got RB'd....the tracker couldn't have seen any of it....

^ this

1. Mala targeted <someone> with rolecop on N1.
2. Mala receives: no result
3. Mala knows she was RB'ed.
4. RB'ed actions don't show up on tracker or watcher reports.

5. Mala knows she wouldn't have shown up on any tracker or watcher reports N1.

6. thus, Mala can just make up whoever target she wants knowing she can't get called on it

bolded the bad link in the chain.

mala got caught on her fakeclaim because she claimed something untrue according to the wiki. Assuming that she checked role interactions is not safe.

I realized, however, that she was trying to get town power to claim and get value out of her death, so she might have lied about her target to try to force uhhhhh no. it's not incorrect

[pieguyn]

EBWOP

the tracker wouldn't have gotten that she visited nowhere if they tracked her...mala said she targeted sleepykrew, but got RB'd....the tracker couldn't have seen any of it....

^ this

1. Mala targeted <someone> with rolecop on N1.
2. Mala receives: no result
3. Mala knows she was RB'ed.
4. RB'ed actions don't show up on tracker or watcher reports.

5. Mala knows she wouldn't have shown up on any tracker or watcher reports N1.

6. thus, Mala can just make up whoever target she wants knowing she can't get called on it

bolded the bad link in the chain.

mala got caught on her fakeclaim because she claimed something untrue according to the wiki. Assuming that she checked role interactions is not safe.

I realized, however, that she was trying to get town power to claim and get value out of her death, so she might have lied about her target to try to force the tracker claim if any existed. So my conclusion is the same.

uhhhhh no. it's not incorrect

[pieguyn]

if Mala knows she was RB'ed, and RB'ed actions don't show up on tracker/watcher reports, she would fucking know she didn't show up on any tracker/watcher reports N1

[pieguyn]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Roleblocker

In practice, roleblocked abilities are simply considered to have never happened. Thus, roles such as Tracker, Watcher, and Paranoid Gun Owner do not work if they Track/Watch/are targeted by Roleblocked actions.