Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Oversoul]

It looked kinda bad to me that TSO was like "everyone hop on board the ADtrain!" while his teammate was telling him that he thought AD was town. It looked off that he at least wouldn't at least address that inconsistency and instead chose to focus on complaining about how bad his wagon was.

Why is it necessarily scummy that TSO went against his teammates' opinions?

I was actively going against Tammy's opinion about UT when I had that major push against him earlier in this game. Does that make me scummy?

[Cheetory6]

It wasn't necessarily scummy, but I was distinctly under the impression that he wasn't particularly well caught up in the game, so for him to champion the ADlynch in a state of ignorance while Kagami or whoever it was, was saying that AD was coming across as town just seemed like it was weird and I wanted him to explain why he was doing that in more detail.

I also didn't really like him dancing around any reasoning that people had for wanting to lynch him, and him yelling at singer and other people seemed somewhat consistent with what I know about TSO's scumgame where he likes to shout people down. I think if there was infinite time in the day cycle and infinite patience from the playerbase, I wouldn't have been okay with my vote on TSO. But it was at the point where if TSOlynch didn't happen, we would have needed another wagon and I think everyone was just kind of like fuck it at that point.

I'm not trying to pretend like I was against him being lynched because I did feel like there was a slightly decent chance of him being scum at the time, but I was admittedly kind of sheeping ffery and I've been kind of pissed at myself and the general playerbase for that moreso than the TSOlynch in itself for a while now. My teammates have also been calling me dumb for voting TSO, but they weren't here to call me dumb when it mattered and haven't been giving me much support so they can stuff it

[Titus]

Can you direct me to where you thought it was universally understood/believed that GiF was unlynchable? Or where it was obvious that everyone knew you knew his role? Who would be framing you from the town block and why do believe it's likely a frame targetting you?

Can you direct me to where you thought it was universally understood/believed that GiF was unlynchable?

My first reaction to that statement was "whuh?" but, actually, I totally believe that town-Titus would think GiF unlynchable by that logic. While that

might

also sound like a reason for scum-Titus to kill GiF, that post feels like it's coming from a town perspective (if Titus thinks this would be the obvious consequence of how she interacted with GiF, I don't know why she'd align herself so closely with him as scum, both to make him more "lynchable" in her head and to mean that a GiF kill doesn't immediately point to her).

something I meant to say in that post but forgot is that Titus would believably think that

everyone

would see GiF as unlynchable as she does even if I don't think it could be more obvious that a bunch of people think very very differently to her about a lot of things.

I know she hasn't responded to this point yet, but something just seriously feels off about Titus having this serious insight as to why GiF died 'to set her up' despite not really having any reason to believe that, and then not being able to offer how anyone would've known that only she would be able to pick up his breadcrumb? I get that I'm reading bleeding scum from everything she posts now, but even through rose colored glasses that's shady.

@Titus...can you also comment on my assertion about our misunderstanding with regards to meta, and elaborate on the point above as much as possible?

@Cheetory...you're right, it is! Womp womp.

@Singer, Really, it feels off that I don't immediately respond sometimes. I had work to do. I felt the thread for all of two seconds. The fact you cannot understand that I use meta for personality but not tactics is clear. So I don't get what you feel is so unclear nor how I can clarify.

As for GiF being unlynchable, I said that people would lynch me before GiF, I meant it. For all intents, GiF was unlynchable. I also outright stated we knew each others roles, so yes everyone knew I thought I knew GiF's role.

[Titus]

@Oversoul, TSO was a deadline wagon. We wanted two lynches. It was never going to happen if FFery and Mastina did not agree. They happened to agree on TSO who was a scumread of mine at the time. So I hopped on.

[singersigner]

So 1. I didn't say it felt off that you didn't respond, I was actually giving you the benefit of the doubt by admitting the fact that you hadn't yet had the opportunity to explain yourself more thoroughly, but if you read too much into it, then...I guess I can see how you might be overly defensive about it??

and 2. Your ISO is about a gajillion posts right now but since you wouldn't find it yourself, I did your due diligence. Here is where I found your declaration that GiF claimed his role to you. And here is where I found you claim you knew GiF's role and he knew yours, which no one really seemed to pay any attention to. What I DON'T understand that you have yet to answer is how you think that made a difference in scum's choices last night and what gave you the impression that GiF was unlynchable just because you said you wouldn't lynch him. Mastin was equally townread by you yet he seems perfectly capable of gaining heat, and you by Mastin. Tammy/Oversoul were also declared town in an unlynchable way by you, with virtually no heat on them, but you consider them less town than GiF?

What also bothers me about you claiming to have known GiF's role and then asserting that scum is trying to "set you up" is that 1. it's the biggest piece of wifom shit I've seen in a long time, and 2. why not kill you so you couldn't corroborate a claim from GiF or use your stubborn townread to defend him? That seems like killing two birds with one stone as well, yet you seem to pretty confidently suggest

this

was clearly the plan, when no one brought it up but you. Literally. No one. But you. Suggested it had anything to do with you.

[ChannelDelibird]

@CDB...did you ask hito what a track would return as a result to any actions that didn't go through because of sign shenanigans? No result? Or no response?

If you mean 'what would happen if my target submitted an incorrect sign?' then no, I actually haven't. I'd sort of assumed that a failure to match sign means you technically don't use an action, but you bringing it up makes me realise that I don't have a particular reason for that to be true instead of any other possible interpretation. I will ask hito about it.

Confirmed: I get the result even if my target incorrectly matched sign.

[singersigner]

Ok.
So.

With regards to DeasVeil

-He seems to be pretty interactive and questioning in his early ISO, which I tend to like as town because that tends to be my tendency as well (tendstendstends).
-He engages mostly with a few people (Tammy, Titus, and Zar/Empire) but that's not really alignment indicative. His interactions hover around his town reads and not so much his scum reads, though, which I'm not sure how I feel about.
-I think his solicitation of an explanation for Empire's meta townread of him seemed scummy at first because it's like "convince others I'm town!" but then he pressures him more for not really being able to explain it well, which reads as genuinely trying to ascertain Empire motivation in townreading him.
-I didn't quite follow his jump from TTH being one of his strongest scumreads to not wanting to lynch her.
-Because of this I noticed he stopped paying as much attention to the game
-I noticed how he said that cops "better not waste their time doing that" in 1833 which is a pretty weird thing to say if you're town!
-In the same post he says it's pretty easy for scum to be inconsistent and I highly disagree. I think it's a lot easier for scum to commit to reads for the better part of the game, whereas town are constantly evolving their reads to allow for more calculations. The statement isn't scummy, but if that's how he feels, then it's something I'm going to watch out for.
-OH OK IN THE SAME POST HE ALSO EXPLAIN HIS TTH PREFERENCE TO NOT GET LYNCHED WHICH IS SUPER FUCKING BAD. So he's deliberately trying to keep a scumread alive in order to let scum agonize over whether or not to kill him?? He recognizes her claim to be confirmed D2 which he comments could make her town but unlikely! Later he says he clearly explains why he wants to not lynch her but this post is full of flippy floppy wifomy womph womph that doesn't really make sense? I can get why you might not what to Bane your biggest scumread because you want to leave them for a lynch, but I don't get why you wouldn't want to push for your biggest scumread. Like...you and Titus both are like "well, my biggest scumread, etc...but we can keep you guys alive for now..." I don't understand the town motivation in that. At all.

That's about 2/3s of the way through his ISO...the rest is comments on the Esp wagon and end of day pandering that doesn't make sense out of context, and then some more "too busy right now" posts. I'd say he's somewhere within the 10-person scum team we have in this game.

Preview Edit:
Ooooooh. That probably means good things for Aronis. I don't really know how stacked a scum team of four would be since my sense of balance in mafia is WAY OFF, but since there seems to be a decent amount of soft-claiming/PR potential, I'd say it's not unlikely that each scum would have some sort of ability, even if it's lite.

[Titus]

I don't know for certain. I have two theories. One is GiF was unlynchable because I would never let him be lynched. I said as much. It wasn't a "gee GiF's really town". It was a, me volunteering to be lynched in place of GiF. Mastina was not equally townread by me. Mastina was town by play but GiF was unquestionable town to me. Both are really town but GiF was moreso.

Conftown= Ffery, Town but for mod confirmation = GiF, Very Town, No plans to lynch = Tammy/Oversoul, Mastina

^^^^ That clear enough.

The other is scum setting me up. Also, why in god's name would scum kill me? I had a very long wagon that scum got on with little no consequence. Why would they kill me? Why do you think I'm confident? I'm not. You asked me why I thought scum would kill GiF. I gave possibilities. To pass that off as confidence is asinine. When I'm confident, most people tend to know that.

Repeatedly, you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of my personality at best. So if you are actually trying to read me, pick any two games I have been in and survived awhile (one town and one scum) so you can get an idea of my personality and what I am like. I cannot explain how I think. No one can explain how they think. I know my thinking is different than others, so if you want a baseline (well frankly you need one), you should look at games where you know my alignment because this is the second time today that you have presumed things that are blatantly untrue (first, that I didn't push my own scumreads and second that I'm actually confident in why scum killed GiF over anyone else rather than responding to your questions). Until you do that, I don't see any further reason for us to talk, because you aren't hunting. You have your mind made up and you're just pushing.

If you want to talk, I'm here but that's not a one way where you just think I'm scum.

[Titus]

10-person scum team? What the heck Singer?

[Gammagooey]

METAPHORS

[singersigner]

Zar, would it be possible to elaborate a bit on Empire's meta townread of me?

He's around now, he says that off the top of his head, you're self conscious and a lot more stiff and awkward when you're scum; basically your care a lot more about your image; when you're town you're more relaxed and don't really have a filter (he's going off the top of his head, he hasn't played with you in like a year).

Why does he have a confident read in me then if it's off the top of his head?

It's a joke with my team that everyone is scum because everyone sucks. I was implying that he's in the scum 50% of the game.

Anyway, you want me to look at your games and look at your personality as both town and scum? Fuck no. If you post nearly as much in any other game as you do here, it's not worth it. I think your logick train sucks, I think you've been hypocritical, and I think you're double-talking just so you don't have to outright answer incorrectly the first time.

I don't have a fundamental misunderstanding of your personality, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of logick. If that makes you town then...like...I seriously don't know how anyone ever town reads you for it.

I do have my mind made up because I'm as confident about you being scum as Mastin claims she is about me. If you think that makes me scum then vote me for it, otherwise, stop complaining that I need to do my work to "meta" you and actually prove to me that I'm wrong about you.

Why did you bring up GiF's role before anyone else did? Why did you suggest it was scum setting you up before anyone else did? Why do you feel so strongly (see how I didn't use the word confident there??) that his death has anything to do with you?

[ChannelDelibird]

Ooooooh. That probably means good things for Aronis. I don't really know how stacked a scum team of four would be since my sense of balance in mafia is WAY OFF, but since there seems to be a decent amount of soft-claiming/PR potential, I'd say it's not unlikely that each scum would have some sort of ability, even if it's lite.

My team and I are talking about how likely it is that I might have been blocked. We certainly haven't decided that it's

likely

, because several things have to happen like there actually being a scum roleblocker and scum either getting my sign on Minor Night 1 or guessing really well last Night (though none of those things are individually particularly implausible), but it's certainly possible. But I'm certainly inclined to leave Aronis alone Today.

PEDIT: Titus, "scum would kill GiF because they knew he was unlynchable because I'd die to save GiF" isn't a reason for scum to kill GiF if you're town. It's a reason to leave him alive and then push him at Day so that you actually do die to save him. The fact that you're suggesting that GiF died specifically because of his relationship to you doesn't sound like a reason for people other than you to have killed him. This is why I'm trying to ask things like if anyone else would have picked up on his crumb, etc etc, because the fact that he's dead is pretty much the only thing at the moment that makes me feel like you could be scum.

[singersigner]

Oops, ignore that quote, that was when I was doing DV's ISO. >_>

Preview Edit:
CDB YES THAT. Geezus fuck.

[Titus]

I brought up GiF's role solely because people wanted to know why I was reading GiF so hard. I don't believe in lying so that was why. I suggested scum setting me up because I was asked why scum would kill GiF. I don't feel strongly. I was speculating as to possible reasons.

It is a reason to kill GiF CDB. Burning mislynches is NOT something scum like to do early. Plus, if they try and fail, they have two unkillable townies, which isn't good. I'll admit, maybe I could have played it better as I'm not subtle when I'm blocking off mislynches but I did and scum killed an unlynchable townie.

[Titus]

@Singer, I am voting to bane you, but that doesn't mean I've given up trying. I'm giving you every courtesy solely because FFery thought you were town, but if you're not even going to try, then there's no point in me honoring what FFery wanted. I don't have a fundamental problem with logic this game. I have a fundamental problem with conveying it to you.

[ChannelDelibird]

It is a reason to kill GiF CDB. Burning mislynches is NOT something scum like to do early. Plus, if they try and fail, they have two unkillable townies, which isn't good. I'll admit, maybe I could have played it better as I'm not subtle when I'm blocking off mislynches but I did and scum killed an unlynchable townie.

Yes, but you seem to be the only one with anywhere near the total 100% confidence that GiF was completely utterly obvtown (given that people had some different reads, also several thought you were scum) so the question isn't so much whether or not GiF would ever get lynched as much as it is whether scum would come to the conclusion that he would never get lynched and thus had to die. The fact that you appear to the be only one so totally convinced that he would never be lynched makes you look more like somebody who might have argued in a scum PT to kill GiF.

Is there anyone else who might have picked up on GiF's crumb? I still think it's possible that scum (possibly scum who Detected GiF on Minor Night 1) might have picked up on him having a power role - I don't think the kill points undisputably to Titus as scum, but it does put it on the table despite the fact that I otherwise had a very strong townread on Titus and don't want to go back on that if there's not a really good reason - but I was definitely surprised by his death so I'd like to have an idea of why it happened.

[ChannelDelibird]

Bane: Espeonage

I've definitely come to the conclusion that these Minor Days are a real impediment to progress. I don't want them to take any longer than they absolutely have to so that we can enjoy some actual momentum. Votes for things that aren't lynches are much, much less fruitful for analysis and I really want to get to that part again. Espeonage is the simplest way to do that without risking outing more power roles, and has enough of a chance to be scum that it'll do for me.

[ChannelDelibird]

Like, this

really

shouldn't take long on account of wanting to wring out some more content because we have 173 pages of content and only two flips to show for it. Let's get to lynchin'.

[Oversoul]

CDB, you're baning someone you think is town?

VOTE: Bane: Mastin

[ChannelDelibird]

I think he could plausibly be what he says he is; I still need to reread him a bit for a clearer view in the same way as I said about him Yesterday. But I've been thinking about it and I'm not sure the risk of outting power roles when, as you say, we should be trying to put a tertiary scumread into the crosshairs for this, is worth moving the Bane away from someone who won't be hurt if they're town and could be hurt if they're scum, which remains possible.

And mastin is someone for whom I could see myself voting to lynch so I dunno if I want to Bane her anyway, as far as the other current contenders go.

[Oversoul]

I mean, I guess that makes sense? In one breath you're wasting the bane, and the other you're trying to not waste the bane.

Compromise with me then? How about we agree to settle the first lynch of the day during this current phase so we don't waste the bane on someone we are going to lynch. I didn't realistically see Mastin being as someone who would get lynched today.

Also I will repeat. Unclaimed power roles shouldn't be a concern, they SHOULD NOT CLAIM IF BANED.

[ChannelDelibird]

Compromise with me then? How about we agree to settle the first lynch of the day during this current phase so we don't waste the bane on someone we are going to lynch.

I like this in theory as a thing to occupy the time more usefully, but I'd really really like to see where votes are going while I decide who I want to lynch. Which is why I hate these Minor Days. I feel like any conclusion to which we came could be changed very quickly depending on how the Major Day starts. I don't feel like we can realistically settle on the first lynch before the event.

If we were allowed to vote right now, I'd be voting UT, of that I'm sure. I haven't decided whether or not I think he's scum yet, but I think he could be, I like that Gestalt came down scum on him at the end, and I'd like to see what would happen if a wagon happened there. That would help me make up my mind.

Also I will repeat. Unclaimed power roles shouldn't be a concern, they SHOULD NOT CLAIM IF BANED.

That's fair, actually, I hadn't thought about that. It would suck, but yeah. Better to suck it up.

[Oversoul]

That's fair, actually, I hadn't thought about that. It would suck, but yeah. Better to suck it up.

Then would you please bane Mastin?

Also,

Singer, Gamma, Reck (via UT)

, could you all please explain the "kitchen scene" or whatever it was that Singer was talking about earlier?

[Oversoul]

Also, could the people who are voting their first choice for lynch please move their bane votes? Thanks.

[ChannelDelibird]

Unbane
Bane: mastin