Open 596: Mega PopCorn Mafia - Over

[Heartless]

c'mon big man

come on out from behind your shitty pot shots and make a case. i'd love to see you try with that max flip.

[RedCoyote]

How is it possible to suck up to someone that is confirmed town? :/ Are you saying I'm being too trusting of him out something? Yeah, I'm going to talk to him like he's town because, uh, he is. What are you arguing here, vonflare? I've consistently supported Nacho's no kill list.

[pablito]

I just skimmed Suzunne's iso and I think there are a lot of associations there. I think a PN-flip will help in determining Suzunne's allignment more. Not convinced of her allignment but I liked her 1007.

I have reason to believe Titus is scum, and maybe even vengeful, but I can't elaborate because ongoing. Have to go in a bit but maybe I'll find some motivation to do a meta-dive on her later today.

I haven't taken the time yet to look back on Maxwell, am planning to do that but for now here are the people I'd want shot right now: Vonflare, PN, Titus. Vonflare and Titus because of actual scumreads and PN because of associations, I'm not sure if I'm really scumreading PN or just don't like their playingstyle, but they have been talked about by many players so it will be good info nonetheless.

Will try to actually do something later.

Sounds good - probably going to put in Suzune in the shortlist and take someone out or something. I'm still deciding who I want it for good.

@RC - I like your posts, so I have nothing against you, but you are pretty religious about this no kill list - and you were also the last one that was added to it pretty much.

[Heartless]

@Heartless, 832 looks more like an enomis associative to me. One of the pair is likely scum.

Even supposing that Maxwell's reasons didn't stand up to scrutiny meaning he's scum, he could have been buddying West. Those associatives you are arguing are not evidence.

:\
It's possible. I looked back at enomis' ISO and I see a repeated motif of townreading just Wanderer and Max. Max's read of enomis remained pretty hazy bu the pushed it pretty hard, especially in his last post (Post 990) where he made the appeals to popularity to double down on he vonflare and PN shots.

[Wanderer-nl]

@Heartless: I don't want to sound full of myself but I'm getting back to my earlier opinion that enomis was trying to scumpaint me and saw he couldn't win the argument against me and just gave up. If he really is town, he should address other people, like Suzunne has mentioned, not just me. And he hasn't. He also still not translated his other early game reads, and I already asked twice and was backed up by someone else (and I don't remember who it was and I cecked but couldn't find it as fast as I hoped so I gave up because wine and 43)


Sorry, missed this before.. (found it while looking for ^)

I'm also annoyed that people are suddenly seeing a scum!enomis while when I was still scumreading him it wasn't supported. I won't scream town on enomis (my townread isn't that strong) but wtf guys?

Why do you think he is town? You explained why you rescinded your scum read of him but you never explained your town read.

@CB: you already answered why town would lurk this game, do you remember?

Yep I remembered. I wanted to hear a new perceptive though.

Hm I thought I did explain..

enomis actually shifted to become a townread for me. His questions to me earlier felt like he was misrepping me but after reevaluating it's probably misscummunication. He also didn't actually call me scum during that questioning so I don't know how I got there. Because he explained he had an early townread on me I'm now seeing

his questioning as figuring me out instead of misrepping me

.
snipsnip

I thought he was trying to figure me out. (Just saw 891 in your iso so you already get it so it seems, but now you know)
Suzunne pointed out that enomis only really addressed me. I believe I was also really the only one to express a definite scumread on him. So that makes me go back leaning scum on him.

And ok. It felt more like making a push on someone to me than it felt like getting a new perspective. What is your Suzunne-read? (843 was a reply to 835 and the quote comes from Suzunne 826 and I would even appreciate short postlinks over quotes without name and postlink)

[Heartless]

kinda' rethinking my julien/suzune slot read

julien was one of max's lukewarm scum reads until suzune replaced in and did stuff when he gave the NOBODY SHOOT THIS SLOT post (Post 828). the subsequent backpedaling in Post 832 when he's called out on it is what kind of gets me because i don't necessarily see why he'd do that to a town slot.

[Wanderer-nl]

Or someone who knows they're not on their team.

[Wanderer-nl]

Oh that's awkward sentencing.
I meant that it can also point to Max knowing the slot is town because it isn't on his team. Back then I don't think there were any signs that he was going to be shot, and if Suzunne would evolve to a strong townread he'd have outed the correct read.

[Titus]

@West, I don't really do towncases. Someone's town if there's no reason to scumread them based on actions. I don't need to prove you town, you know it if you are. If you can't take my word for it, shoot me. I prove people down by tearing down shit cases, not by highlighting "this is a town post" unless the post is just inherently obviously town, or VCA clears someone. Since we aren't getting into VCA most likely (although I'll try to force the issue if I have the gun), then you're not likely to see strong town cases from me.

@Suzanne, I don't read when I sub in. Just a matter of policy, regardless of alignment.

@Heartless, there you go. A lot of the who is scum and who is town arguments are about perspectives.

[Heartless]

Oh, and Flubbie.

I'm going to repeat Anti's sentiment here.

Nut up or shut up.

We're not going to go back on our read on Red Coyote just because he said "good job" after a scum flip. There needs to be a lot better of a reason than that, especially given Max's loud bitching and moaning about Nacho/pabilto's suggested town block. At this point, you're being petty and anti-town at best and scummy at worst. pablito's not going to shoot us so the only purpose you're serving is pushing Anti's buttons.

You seriously think we're scum? You've seen each of us individually as scum in 2 games and this hydra as scum in one. I don't know how you could really think we're scum given what you've seen of our body of work. I'm even more perplexed given the face my

unique, original

scum read

just flipped scum as the direct result of our efforts

.

[RedCoyote]

Also Maxwell is the one that was the most vehement against the Nacho plan of not shooting CB, RC, wanderer, Heartless and pablito. As such, I strongly encourage the five of us to plan to not shoot any of the others at least until 6 total mafia are dead. I'd also strongly encourage all gunbearers to do the same. Maxwell was against the list because, I suspect, he knew all five of us are town.

This paragraph is golden, pab. This is exactly how I feel. I'm sorry if I have been disappointing you with my activity, but I am happy you got us our first good shot.

Suck-up

I agree here. vonflare - what's your read on RC. How about also, what's your read on Titus? Also, what's your read on anyone?

Is it my ego that's pointing out heartless made no note of this buddying

Y/N only if anyone desires to answer

I don't get this at all. We should all be "buddying" up to pablito. I was "buddying" up to him before he even got the gun. Victor's shot was ridiculous and went completely against anything I was preaching.

I don't mind people taking swipes at me for legitimate things, but this is really offbase. I don't see how Flubber or vonflare were acting genuine here. Possibly an argument made out of desperation? I think it's possible the scumteam is panicking a bit and are probably trying their damnedest to get pablito to discount the "don't shoot" list the way Victor did.

---

@RC - I like your posts, so I have nothing against you, but you are pretty religious about this no kill list - and you were also the last one that was added to it pretty much.

Yeah, I am. I'm not ashamed of that.

Further, the main reason I was the last one to be added to it was because it took me a week to psyche myself enough to go through the game.

I want to read over Max now, but vonflare's seemingly out of the blue attempt to bring heat on me has shot up some serious red flags. Especially given the fact the last and only time vonflare ever addressed me was to call me town in 382 (as an added bonus, he calls Max town in that post as well). As far as Flubber goes, I'm on record as calling him out for scum and nothing has changed that read.

[MonkeyMan576]

A quick readthrough of MP's iso says he was scumreading RedCoyote, deep city lights, PN, and Vonflare. That means that these people are most likely town, I know I'm town. We can POE from there.

I so, so don't think that this is true. Why do you think he wasn't bussing?

I'm not saying he wasn't bussing, but I don't think he was bussing EVERYONE, so POE does more good than harm at this point.

[Suzune]

A quick readthrough of MP's iso says he was scumreading RedCoyote, deep city lights, PN, and Vonflare. That means that these people are most likely town, I know I'm town. We can POE from there.

I so, so don't think that this is true. Why do you think he wasn't bussing?

I'm not saying he wasn't bussing, but I don't think he was bussing EVERYONE, so POE does more good than harm at this point.

Logically there needs to only be a couple of mafia on the list. The couple of mafia are enough to make us doubt the entire list and in that way we have given power away to the mafia.

[pablito]

I've been doing some thinking (sorry pablito, but since you're giving me so much time, this is what you get: my ramblings).

I think the game makes a

lot

more sense letting go of a Flubber scum read. I think this fits together better: vonflare, Perpetual Nonsense, Lucky2u, West9, Titus, MaxwellPuckett, millar13

So we have a new list. We have Nacho's "never shoot" list and now we have Heartless' "scum list".

Vote on whether to trust Heartless' "scum list"?
West alluded to "yea"
wanderer-nl pretty much said "yea"
Maxwell said "nay" - only PN and vonflare were scum.

So what do you think?


Also pablito's current shortlist is now: Suzune, Titus, vonflare, West9.

Please rank order those 4 from "most want to be shot" to "least want to be shot".

[Titus]

@pab, Vonflare.

The rest are horrible shots.

[pablito]

Oh, and Flubbie.

I'm going to repeat Anti's sentiment here.

Nut up or shut up.

We're not going to go back on our read on Red Coyote just because he said "good job" after a scum flip. There needs to be a lot better of a reason than that, especially given Max's loud bitching and moaning about Nacho/pabilto's suggested town block. At this point, you're being petty and anti-town at best and scummy at worst. pablito's not going to shoot us so the only purpose you're serving is pushing Anti's buttons.

You seriously think we're scum? You've seen each of us individually as scum in 2 games and this hydra as scum in one. I don't know how you could really think we're scum given what you've seen of our body of work. I'm even more perplexed given the face my

unique, original

scum read

just flipped scum as the direct result of our efforts

.

Before further speculation goes on that final sentence, I will admit that Heartless asking me to reconsider Maxwell did have an impact on me deciding to shoot Maxwell in the end.


@Titus, your effort level in this game is minimal. Therefore your persuasion power on me is nil. I'd be more likely to shoot you than vonflare at this moment.

[Heartless]

So what do you think?

we're going to be doing another group brainstorming session on this game tonight and putting together another reads list so you might want to hold your horses for a sec plz

[MonkeyMan576]

I could go for a Vonflare shoot. He townread MP and gave a reads list, and between MP and Vonflare we could get a nice blueprint for future shots.

[Titus]

Too much talking. We should shoot once a day unless we hit town. No letting scum regroup.

[pablito]

Too much talking. We should shoot once a day unless we hit town. No letting scum regroup.

That also doesn't let town regroup either. And considering that most scum are probably lurking into oblivion, I don't think that's a good idea. Titus - who are your scum reads who would likely use the time to regroup? What do you think of Lucky, millar/Monkey, and what did you think of Jeanne? Did you feel that all are town?

Also Titus per your own thread, you say that D1 is useless in the moment, but is a good scum hunting tool late in the game. If I were to make my shot of Titus right now, how would that help town later on know what were the mafia's reads on Titus at that time?

[West9]

prodge. currently sick and taking finals, so i might be a bit less active for the next couple of days. planning on commenting on pab's shotlist tomorrow.

[Titus]

Pablito, why does town need to regroup? We just shot scum. We don't need perfection, just accurate shots. The more scum talk, the easier it is for them to persuade us of something that is untrue. I love long days as scum. Just keep them talking.

My thread presumes a VCA can be performed. It can be reconstructed with your short list, presuming others did something similar but it would take time and more likely be less precise. Basically, the idea is you look back and see who favored shooting who else. Ignore the reason (at least at first). Look at the general voting pattern. Has someone always wanted town shot, while FoSing scum, neon sign of being scum. If someone consistently always wants to shoot town and is passionate about doing so for many times in a row, more than likely that person is dumb town.

[Titus]

P.S. Go ahead and shoot me.

[Heartless]

I was going to write a post.

Fuck it. I'm tired.

[Wanderer-nl]

I've gone over Maxwell's iso and the things that stood out to me most were his consistent townreading of me, his being null/town on enomis and his repeating that a millar-shot won't help us so shouldn't happen.
Looking at 325 I don't see leans/reads on dcl, Heartless, Lucky, Pablito, PN, RC, me and Flubber, Millar, Jeanne.
CB town, enomis null/town, Julien scum, Victor gut town, Vonflare null, West9 town motivated.

Other interactions I saw in the iso make me think that enomis can be scum with Max, dcl maybe, millar likely, and probably Vonflare.

millar is now Monkey
dcl is now Kari
Jeanne is now Titus
Julien is now Suzunne

I'm sure there's more to find but my cat distracted me by bringing a dead bird in the house so gonna take care of that now.