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Post Post #450 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:10 pm

Post by vezokpiraka »

In post 448, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:
In post 447, vezokpiraka wrote:Wow. That reads list is awful, but at least zakk is town.


So what makes it awful, and why is he town? that's a bold statement to say, can you back it up?

Also, why does your reads list differ then, since his is bad?


Because it has absolutely no relations between reads. He's town because scum would never make a readlist like that.
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Post Post #451 (ISO) » Tue Jun 30, 2015 11:55 pm

Post by Vi »

In post 430, Salamence20 wrote:Vi are you town?
It's pretty obvious tbh.

Jazzmyn 431 wrote:You keep saying
[that I, Jazzmyn, am an easy target]
, but I do not understand it. What do you mean?
Your play thus far is largely based on saying "everyone is scummy" and yelling at people who accuse you. Finding logical errors to nitpick is pretty easy to do, and one person has even voted you out of sheer annoyance. In other words, if someone wanted to vote you, they could find reasons to do it without trying very hard or catching much blame.

vezokpiraka 443 wrote:Wtf Vi?

You've played with me before. You are very good at scumhunting. So why the vote on me? This happens every game where I'm town. Scum pile up on me.

The thing is I know I'm town. It doesn't make sense for Vi to vote me at all.
So to clarify, "Vi is scum because Vi would not vote for me as Town".

Have we met?

zakk 445 wrote:VI
zakk 445 wrote:VI
zakk 445 wrote:VI
zakk 445 wrote:VI
zakk 445 wrote:VI
zakk 445 wrote:VI
zakk 445 wrote:VI
zakk 445 wrote:VI


I... actually have to echo vezokpiraka 447. That reads list is a work of modern art, and there are so many things wrong with it, but... it's... trying.

LLD, I have to call you back. What do you think of my previous scumlist of {Master Zik, Juls, Plum}?

Unvote: vezokpiraka
until I get back in.
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Post Post #452 (ISO) » Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:16 am

Post by Master Zik »

In post 440, Plum wrote:How do you read the Jazzmyn wagon (participants, development)?


I read the Jazzmyn wagon as a shameful embarrassment that should never have happened. Jazzmyn is solidly town for me, I'm townreading her frustration because it feels genuine; something that seems that she is trying to keep in check thanks to her good manners.

I'm townreading all three players on the wagon: Albert B. Rampage, vezokpiraka* and Quaroath. vezokpiraka's vote on Jazzmyn was bad, but it was not
scummy
. I am of the opinion that none of them were voting Jazzmyn for good or valid reasons.

By that, I'm getting a scumread on Vi. She appears to be insinuating that the Jazzmyn wagon has scum on it, when it is not necessarily the case. Her actions are clearly attempting to plant seeds of doubt in others' minds (notably Lady Lambdadelta's) regarding the players voting for Jazzmyn.

*If you're confused about my townread on vezokpiraka, read #403. The caution or apprehension demonstrated in this post is unlikely to come from a scum player.




I strongly believe that the vezokpiraka wagon is foul.

The most recent votecount occurred in #407. Two players have votes on vezokpiraka: zakk and Salamence20.

zakk's recent reads post gives me town vibes. I will not consider him scum for now.

Salamence20 could possibly be scum.

...

Shortly after, Lady Lambdadelta initiates a pressure vote on vezokpiraka in #425.

Immediately, Vi hopped on in #427. With the following comment: "See, when I read "pressure" I interpret it to refer to the tension of a rope against someone's neck."

Vi means to seriously lynch vezokpiraka. The only reason for her vote was really, really,
really
shitty VCA/Wagon analysis earlier in #419. Oh, and that's basically the only time she professes a scumread on vezokpiraka. It's a rapid readiness shift.

Quaroath's sheep was bad, but he did have a trajectory on vezokpiraka which he used to justify his vote.


In sum, on the vezokpiraka wagon I'm looking at Vi for scum, and with a lesser possibility Salamence20.
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Post Post #453 (ISO) » Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:04 am

Post by Albert B. Rampage »

I don't see what's so town about Jazz at all. I think it's the best wagon in the game. I don't understand why there are votes for vezok.
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Post Post #454 (ISO) » Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:16 am

Post by Master Zik »

In post 441, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:The goal of any town player is to find scum and try to do this through different methods. The key to this is that all methods have a similarity in their intent. They're all looking for things that scum would DO.


That's not necessarily true. There's a hundred-and-one things scum can do, and it's not easy for a town player to divine what they are actually thinking,
especially
when one does not have information regarding who the partners are, their gameplan, and team dynamics.

I'm sure you have heard of the term "townhunting", which is essentially a form of scumhunting (ironic, I know) that is a counterexample to your statement. So, I don't think so.

In post 441, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:Your post on the other hand has the unfortunate quality of not doing this. The intent behind the post was not backed up with any attempt at finding scum, but rather at potshotting someone's credibility for later, and keeping yourself under the radar, without having to commit anywhere.


Is this the case? You're casting four accusations against me:

1. Not scumhunting
2. Potshotting someone's credibility
3. Keeping myself under the radar
4. Without committing anywhere

Are you going to provide evidence and explanation to justify all these claims? Because, I, for one, can already rule out number 3 as false -- I think my walls vs RedCoyote which take up a full screen's length is the opposite of "keeping myself under the radar".

In post 441, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:This kind of posting is perfect for scum, because it makes people consider other players beyond yourself and gives you some ground to stand on in the terms of content.


Once again, you should justify your point of where it "makes people consider other players beyond [my]self".

I'm making people consider Vi because her post pinged a scumtell. Do explain how this action is not town-motivated.

In post 441, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:The fact is, attempting to claim that post is coming from a scum perspective without elaborating on it (because once I elaborated on it, it became clear you were cherry picking a tree and avoiding the forest) has more scum intent than anything Vi has said so far.


Interesting.

Well, let me tell you about the forest.

The forest includes Vi throwing shade upon your Jazzmyn townread, and asking leading questions that suggest to you that 'at least one scum is on the Jazzmyn wagon', which is simply not a valid conclusion to make at this point in time.

Her "I'll have my own thoughts, but I'll wait for yours" can be construed as being malleable to whatever of your responses suit the motivations of her hypothetical scum faction, yet able to persuade you into having an ultimately anti-town opinion if you had responded with something that would be pro-town.

#420 is also another potshot on the Jazzmyn wagon. You want to talk about "makes people consider other players besides yourself", then you should talk about Vi throwing shade on the Jazzmyn wagon. She wants you to consider three other players besides herself.

Way more deadly than my "consider only Vi", isn't it?
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Post Post #455 (ISO) » Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:17 am

Post by Master Zik »

In post 442, Lady Lambdadelta wrote:Also, I'm renowned as a master of scum?

I mean, I'm good at scum and I like it, but I never knew people cared!

Daww~


Everybody here is a Master at something! :)


*also, pun on my username.
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Post Post #456 (ISO) » Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:18 am

Post by Master Zik »

In post 444, Plum wrote:Wait, so what the hell happens when you draw scum?

Any reason not to go to L-1 here?


Yes, lots of reasons.

The one that is the most important is because vezokpiraka is likely town.

Though I can give you more if you'd like.
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Post Post #457 (ISO) » Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:20 am

Post by Master Zik »

I'm counterclaiming Vi.

Daykill: Vi
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Post Post #458 (ISO) » Wed Jul 01, 2015 3:34 am

Post by Untrod Tripod »

Votecount 1.12Albert B. Rampage - 1 (SleepyKrew)
Jazzmyn - 2 (ABR, vezok)
Juls
Lady Lambdadelta
Master Zik
Plum - 2 (Juls, zakk)
Quaroath
RedCoyote - 1 (Master Zik)
Salamence20
SleepyKrew
vezokpiraka - 3 (Salemence20, LLD, Quaroath)
Vi - 1 (Jazzmyn)
zakk - 2 (Plum, RedCoyote)

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is (expired on 2015-07-06 12:00:00)
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Post Post #459 (ISO) » Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:25 am

Post by Vi »

And yet the most interesting post in that wall was ABR's.

Vote: Plum
(L-4)
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Post Post #460 (ISO) » Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:02 am

Post by Salamence20 »

VOTE: Vi
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Post Post #461 (ISO) » Wed Jul 01, 2015 5:05 am

Post by Master Zik »

VOTE: Vi
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Post Post #462 (ISO) » Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:27 am

Post by Albert B. Rampage »

I disagree with Vi that Jazzmyn is an easy target...I don't see why town Vi would say that.

The weirdest thing about Vi is that she's defending Jazzmyn indirectly saying it's an easy (read: lazy) wagon, and also saying it would be fun to vote Kinetic, LLD, or Jazzmyn (quote below).

In post 204, Vi wrote:Basically, all of these would be fun people to bully around with wagons


Then as soon as Jazz gets votes, Vi criticizes the three voters and looks for scum on it.

What is Vi doing?

I don't know.

Vote: Vi
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Post Post #463 (ISO) » Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:33 am

Post by Albert B. Rampage »

In post 416, Vi wrote:Okay.

Following from that, there are three people who are voting for Jazzmyn. There are a few people jeering from the sidelines but three people are on the jazz. They are Albert B. Rampage, vezokpiraka, and Quaroath.

Based specifically on how they jumped on Jazzmyn - I linked the preceding Jazz posts but you can do your own research if you like - which of these would you say is scum, or most likely to be scum? (I have my own thoughts, but I'll wait for yours.)


In post 451, Vi wrote:Your play thus far is largely based on saying "everyone is scummy" and yelling at people who accuse you. Finding logical errors to nitpick is pretty easy to do, and one person has even voted you out of sheer annoyance. In other words, if someone wanted to vote you, they could find reasons to do it without trying very hard or catching much blame.


In post 420, Vi wrote:Also, as before, Jazzmyn is a super-easy target and if she's Town I'd be surprised if zero scum have tried to take the bait.

(granted Juls and Kinetizakk aren't here and SKrew is lurking)


In post 419, Vi wrote:The conclusion would have been "if you think there's one scum who opportunistically jumped on Jazzmyn then speaking strictly from probability we should be voting one of them".


TL;DR Vi is pushing extremely hard that Jazz is an easy lynch, therefore it's a bad one, and there's assuredly scum on it (vezok). Yet Vi says that Jazz "would be fun to bully around with wagons", along with Kinetic and LLD.

Notice the circular thinking as well...Vi is acting very arbitrarily. She could say, Albert is an easy target because he annoys people and at least one player would lynch him out of annoyance. Yet I'm not on the chopping block, but Jazzmyn is, and for legitimate reasons (being purposely inflammatory, inciting LLD to lash out, encouraging chaos, doing very little scumhunting). So...Vi is wrong.
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Post Post #464 (ISO) » Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:34 am

Post by Albert B. Rampage »

The circular thinking is because, any popular wagon can be considered an easy wagon. They are one and the same. That's just how the cookie crumbles. If you examine the reasons, are they good or bad? I think Jazzmyn wagon is extremely good. Vi defending her is contrived and that's why I'm voting her now.
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Post Post #465 (ISO) » Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:53 am

Post by Vi »

Everyone looks like they're having fun and I hate to break in while I'm at work, but at four votes I believe I need to say -

Part of my role is that I take one fewer vote to lynch. I'm presently at L-2.

If there's such demand to start laying on defenses and etc., I'll be around tonight.
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Post Post #466 (ISO) » Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:59 am

Post by zakk »

VI given your "awwww that's cute, you're trying" response to my scum read on you, I'm definitely willing to put you at L-1.

Except I'm already voting both vezok and Plum according to the vote count... *nonchalantly passes Untrod cash under the table*

___________________________________

On this week's very special episode of UT Can't Do Votecounts....
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Post Post #467 (ISO) » Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:14 am

Post by Vi »

Yep. I'll give a more through response in a few hours. I apologize for coming across as patronizing, though.
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Post Post #468 (ISO) » Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:20 am

Post by zakk »

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Post Post #469 (ISO) » Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:33 am

Post by vezokpiraka »

In post 466, zakk wrote:VI given your "awwww that's cute, you're trying" response to my scum read on you, I'm definitely willing to put you at L-1.

Except I'm already voting both vezok and Plum according to the vote count... *nonchalantly passes Untrod cash under the table*

___________________________________

On this week's very special episode of UT Can't Do Votecounts....


I wanted to like this post. Or upvote it or something.

Anyway I'm down to voting Vi, but I don't want to put her at L-1, until she claims.
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Post Post #470 (ISO) » Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:13 am

Post by Vi »

Okay. I'll go through each person in turn and then provide my own thoughts. Hopefully this won't take all night.
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Post Post #471 (ISO) » Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:33 am

Post by Vi »

WRT Albert B. Rampage -

I did indeed say in post 204 that Jazzmyn was a net zero who could be fun to wagon for reactions. That's because at that time, Jazzmyn had indeed done less than zero. By the time Jazzmyn had gotten votes, she had posted substantially more. Circumstances changed entirely, and so my opinion changed entirely. I'm at a loss as to how the very concept of "context" eludes you in good faith.

In addition, there's an vital concept that I'm probably going to be repeating shortly with Master Zik if memory serves. A wagon on someone is good if it's on scum or if it leads to the outing of scum. A wagon for bad play on someone who's Town is not a good wagon. As I believe I've mentioned previously, Jazzmyn's behavior in this game is not outside my understanding of her Town meta. I've seen (in a game where I didn't quite draw Town, no less) her arguments completely wreck a Day 1 in a 1v1 with another Townie, right up to deadline. Keeping that in mind, the reasons you gave for the Jazzmyn wagon are--
(being purposely inflammatory, inciting LLD to lash out, encouraging chaos, doing very little scumhunting)
--which are not only things that aren't terribly surprising, they're also things that Jazzmyn has no monopoly on (ABR and myself are on this list as well). This is a playstyle lynch
which is a great example of an easy lynch
.

So you mean to tell me that you're pushing a playstyle lynch on someone and you're willing to push it with two-word posts from the sidelines until some other easy target comes up, at which time you come up with a case that essentially relies on time travel. I will be surprised and disappointed if this is not the worst logic I encounter going up the thread.
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Post Post #472 (ISO) » Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:34 am

Post by Vi »

WRT Salamence--

'Sup. Pressure vote, or is there something in particular you'd like to see?
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Post Post #473 (ISO) » Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:48 am

Post by Vi »

WRT Master Zik--

WRT me and the Jazzwagon - Yep. I did that. I've already acknowledged that I botched my second question to LLD, which as I originally formulated it wasn't leading on its own. We seem to agree that vezokpiraka's vote looked bad; reading that this morning was what got me to wonder about whether that would be the best place to go. I'm curious as to how you got your Town read on ABR, because I'm not seeing it and haven't been seeing it for a while.

WRT Salamence20 - I'm assuming that you're calling Salamence a potential scumread because of his position on the vezokpiraka wagon without much else to go on?

WRT LLD and me voting vezokpiraka - On the one hand, yes, that happened. On the other hand, what you seem to have missed was that I offered LLD the vezokpiraka wagon first. That wasn't exactly "Ooh, three-vote wagon! :SCORE:" ; it was pretty clearly telegraphed what I would do, especially if you saw what I did with RedCoyote. In addition, I did express an unease with vezokpiraka when I was talking to RedCoyote, precisely because his play is immensely different from what I remember. The last time I played with him he was a policy lynch, the last time I modded over him he was quicklynched Day 1 for screwing up an endgame super-badly, and now I'm reading about him in passing something-something-carrying scumteams. (Or was vezokpiraka in MafiaScum Fantasy Camp I? In that case, he was a policy lynch that also did a pretty sweet scum job.)

I'll also follow all of that up by saying that vezokpiraka's posts following zakk's entrance looked superTown.

WRT throwing shade on LLD's Town-read of Jazzmyn - That's... actually not true. What did I say to suggest that?

WRT "I have my thoughts, but I'll wait for yours" - In case it wasn't evident, I definitely already had a conclusion formed and wanted to see if LLD accepted the steps that led me to it. The reason why it was evident should have been my surprise when she didn't reach the same conclusion I did.

WRT me trying to get LLD to consider people other than me - I'm including this for completeness only in case someone tries to latch onto it. Let's not argue over people trying to suggest that other people could be scum, because down that road lies MADNESS, and in a game about Genesis our house is not in the middle of the street.

WRT daykilling - Please don't. This game has enough wanton disrespect.
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Post Post #474 (ISO) » Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:07 am

Post by Vi »

WRT zakk--

WRT self-awareness - That's me normally. Hi, I'm Vi; pleased to meet you. Although I'd probably be a lot better at this game if I could perfectly calibrate my posts to get the reader to feel a certain way; it seems like I've been aggressively scoring negative points on that front in my last few games.

WRT post 187 -
Vi 187 wrote:I never made a case on Plum. That stuff after the vote was me trolling, like I've been doing for most of the game.

But Plum's posts really do look like they're coming from scum.
This isn't distancing from the wagon, especially not considering I affirmed that I wanted to be on the wagon
in that same post
. It was, however, intended to open a route to make the people who had also joined the Plum wagon answer for it (Juls, RedCoyote, vezokpiraka). This particularly came off of Salamence20 saying that he didn't like how three people had sheeped me onto Plum.

WRT four suspects rather than three being a sign of experience and/or scum - If it's what you're thinking of, I'm not trying to call the team. That scum list was casting a net toward the people most likely to be scum. Adding someone (as a bit of a really disappointing compromise) was just part of doing business with RedCoyote.

WRT asking if Jazzmyn is substantially more likely than random to be Town - Mafia theory. Assuming three scum, any given other player has a 75% chance of being Town (which I think I'm going to come back to later). Going higher than that is pretty meaningful. (Of course, I won't vouch that LLD took it that way.)

WRT pulling people aside to talk to them - If you think that's a cheap way to score Town points, it is... if you're Town and know what you're doing. If either of those don't hold, you're in trouble. I'm biased here because sussing people in Neighborhoods is my specialty.

WRT giving Plum something to latch onto - That's something she did of her own volition.

WRT alternating bussing-and-buddying Plum - This is me viciously judging you for making a pre-flip association tell. Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before a flip. Although I'm tempted to do it too.
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