Open 608: Jungle Republic - A jungle is conquered(game over)

[shaddowez]

Hey all - this is a prod dodge, and I apologize! I usually have limited access over the weekend, and this weekend was worse than expected. I'll be back tomorrow night.

[shaddowez]

I'm not as sold on the tell of threes as Klick seems to be, but nonetheless

VOTE: Idiot Savant

If you're not sold on this theory, why bother voting IS?

VOTE: gameplay

Says he gets bored in fast paced early games, puts IS at L-1 but reads fire as scum, and is trying to hurry the hammer.

I almost feel like it's too obvious a scum play, but hate that as a defense.

[shaddowez]

Oh I think it's an alright theory, and for that stage of the game it was better than anything else I had. I just didn't see it as giving a super strong indication of alignment.

I see. Interested in what else you think about him, and also looking for your info on Vedith.

I know I haven't had a ton of activity or content this game, but sadly I think it's better than Vedith's has been. He's asked a couple of baseless questions and hasn't followed up on anything. I'm willing to let my vote sit there for a while.

VOTE: Vedith

I could see myko being scum too, and DV/Wanderer/gameplay are town.

Klick

- Can you please provide some reasons for your reads? You seem to have done nothing but tunnel on IS for most of your posting, so your random scum and town reads have me curious.

[shaddowez]

I know I haven't had a ton of activity or content this game, but sadly I think it's better than Vedith's has been

Alright, just reread my own ISO and it actually hasn't been much better. I plan on changing that though!

Mario, I don't like how you want to hammer a certain person so much for just being that person.

Wanderer

- Why is Mario wanting to hammer a specific person scummier than gameplay just wanting a hammer for the sake of a hammer? (64)

-probably have an alignment tell between klick and fire.

hayato

- Care to go into this any deeper?

[shaddowez]

it seems like an activity vote from someone who's not too active themselves

It sort of was, though I tend to look at content more than activity level (or post count, whichever you'd prefer). I did note in my very next post that my activity was lower than I recalled, and hope to change that, although I know today hasn't helped that at all.
I do agree with your reasoning on Vedith, and posts like 131 aren't helping at all.

Anyone, who has played with scum-Klick, will know that he plan his scum-game very well in the scum PT

Unless scum have Day Talk, wouldn't this be tough to pull of on D1? I don't know his meta, but I feel that this may be tough to distinguish early game.

Mykonian

- In 69 you mention suspecting Wanderer, but haven't said anything about her since. What are your thoughts now?

Jazzmyn

- Where are you? I don't like your pop in, make a vote based on one line, and disappear. Have any more to contribute?

[shaddowez]

Please see above; I'm working on it. At this point, though, I can only vote on the basis of content (outside of the majority of posts so far that are about previous game experience that players have with each other) since I haven't played with most of you as set out previously. As an aside, your own 'pop in' and vote does not really appear to be qualitatively different than mine, and your own content so far is nothing to write home about either. Just saying.

You're absolutely right about my posting not being much more than yours, however I still feel that your content is less. Even in this post you don't say much except for getting extremely defensive from my one line. You also show up shortly after me calling you out, say you're working on posting more, and then....nothing.

Hey NM, thanks for replacing in!

I would like to drop this kind of discussion as it doesn 't really help in terms of scum-hunting. Unless it does help you read me? In which case, I would like you to explain how.

I like this, a lot. Scum could have easily tried continuing the conversation, crowding up the thread and just confusing everything. Trying to end it as it does nothing to further the game seems extremely townie.

153 is another post from Vedith that doesn't say anything and just looks like he's being active. I'm leaving my vote there, would be equally as happy with a Jazzmyn lynch at this point.

[shaddowez]

To be honest, I haven't been active, and 'trying to look active' with 6 posts?! I don't understand where you get that from. Reading through your comments, all I see is you putting a vote on Gameplay as a distancing vote. When there is a chance that it can build on him you change your mind.

Number of posts has nothing to do with activity, it's based on content. If you have 100 posts of "Hi" that's less than one good post with reads and questions. So yes, it looks like you're trying to be active in your posts by posing questions and comments that don't mean anything.

As for gameplay, he hasn't done a damn thing this game, and I do have a gut feeling of scum from him as a lurksack. I'm not sure where you saw that there was a chance that it could build on him though, since gameplay was barely mentioned between my two vote posts.

VOTE: Vedith

Care to explain this, NM?

Fire

- Can you explain some of your reads from 178? Except for IS, you don't really explain any of your null or scum reads, and I really don't understand your Mario read. Has this changed any with NM's entrance?

[shaddowez]

UNVOTE:

@myk: You had a scumlean on me earlier which you never explained. Where do you stand on me now?

about as far as last time someone asked me this. Seen nothing new.

This still hasn't explained why you suspect Wanderer. That initial post was also 69, and nothing has changed since then?

You also mention Mario being scum, then comment on NM still being scum in 160, yet have done nothing to engage them, or voted them. Any reasons why not?

NM

- do you still have nothing to say for your vote on Vedith?

Also,
@myk: What tell?

^

I'm not liking the vague reads and no explanations from Myk. Also seem to be tunneling on Savant with little to no case, but there's enough of a wagon to blend in.

VOTE: Myk

@Mod

- I believe Klick is due for a prod

[shaddowez]

Because my tunnel is wide and accepting but cannot fit 3 people at once. I also find myself inconvienienced by the lack of triple voting abilities.

Well, you don't need to, since NM replaced Mario. I find that scum care less about paying attention to who's in the game, so this just further concretes my vote.

Other good votes are Firebringer and Shaddow.
The first gives me a fake-vibe. The latter looks for things he can use against players.

I'm not sure how this is a bad thing? I'm looking for slipups and inconsistencies that people make, which are usually scum-based.

[shaddowez]

Are you saying you're convinced myk is scum because he

wasn't

aware of NM replacing Mario?

I fixed the quote to actually represent what I was saying....It is a contributing factor in my read, yes. I wouldn't say that's what

convinced

me, no.

Mistakes aren't just made by scum, you should be looking at motivations of players.

I absolutely agree. However, the nature of the mistake is often a good indication. Taking it to the extreme, voting for a mislynch is a "mistake", but I obviously know that not everybody that did so is scum.

@Shaddow
True, players should look at things that stand out. However, this behaviour is normally consistent. For example, you suspected Gameplay for interesting reasons. Then drop them to vote a player who hasn't posted much. This is interesting as basically, you and Vedith posted almost the same things when you voted him. And secondly, you argue that Myko hasn't engaged with his scumreads. And you aren't doing that either. I can add to that asking questions to players, but not discussing the answers afterwards. Basically, you appear active. But not in a good way.

I actually addressed the reason for dropping my gameplay vote to somebody else in 188. Yes, it was after the fact and not at the time of the vote change, but the reasoning is out there. I also disagree with you saying I don't follow up on stuff, as I do so with Vedith in 188, DV in 140, Jazz in 166. Just because I don't ask further questions at the time doesn't mean I'm not following up. Especially since, as you already pointed out, my play style is more on reading into what people have posted.

NM

- is 258 really all you have to offer? I know you're a better player than this, and you have me worried.

Veid, I think your last post could've earnt you some town-points.

The phrasing of this sounds very non-committal. Did it or did it not come off as townie to you?

[shaddowez]

@Mod

- Typical V/LA until Sunday night

[shaddowez]

Should we contact a admin/list mod for this game?

Probably not a bad idea - zzzx was onsite earlier today based on their profile, and still nothing in this game.

[shaddowez]

So can anyone explain why we didn't have any kills?
I don't thin kthey wouldn't attack, I am pretty lost.

I'm confused as well. There's nothing in the Role PM's that looks like it should've been able to stop one, so I'm guessing they just didn't submit a kill?

VOTE: pimhel

Hasn't posted since Aug 29th

There are two, so even if this is the case, shouldn't the other one have been able to submit the kill?

However, I would still support a PimHel lynch. He's been reluctant to give any information, promising to do so later and not doing so. I also found the slot scummy when gameplay was in it.

VOTE: PimHel

[shaddowez]

UNVOTE:

I was a bit hasty earlier in voting for the MIA player, though if they did decide to no kill I'm still extremely confused. I agree with FB's points in 329.

IS got up to L-2 yesterDay before the Vedith counterwagon started up strong. Pair that with myk's 338, and the fact that there was little engagement and vague non-committal reads all day, I'm willing to join that wagon today.

VOTE: IS

If I'm counting correctly, that brings the wagon to L-2 again. Let's see what happens this time.

[shaddowez]

@Mod

- will be V/LA until 9/7 for the holiday weekend.

[shaddowez]

weerwolf
If I had to go with it right now, I'd say hayato-fire are the remaining mafia. But this is a lot more fuzzy than the werewolf situation and the tells used more iffy just to get to a result.

I agree with this. I was wrong about the gameplay/PimHel slot though, so that's not saying much.

Anti

, if you think DV is scum who would you partner them with?

VOTE: Vedith

Wanderer

, was this based mainly on 349 and 352?

Not_Mafia

- What about 341 makes Wanderer scum to you? Also, why have every single one of your votes been empty votes?

[shaddowez]

I may be missing something, but is there an actual case against Wanderer? I'm willing to entertain it, I'm just not seeing it myself.

Me and Mykonian are town.
Wanderer might be his ally who bussed him.

How confident are you that he was bussed? I know that just leaves myself, hayato, and Titus as options if not.

Shadow or Hayato as second WW then

VS and Wanderer as scum!

So you're just assuming that the other WW wasn't on the wagon, and Titus (Hermit's spot) is in the clear? Could you please explain why, or if I'm missing something fill me in?

[shaddowez]

As for me not being on the Anti wagon, there wasn't really a chance for me to - I wasn't around between the thread unlocking and the hammer.

[shaddowez]

@Mod

- Standard V/LA until Sunday, 9/20

[shaddowez]

I'm not liking the fact that there's absolutely no counter wagon to Wanderer. If nothing else that gives me a slight town read, as scum and WW are both willing to get on any wagon that's not their own faction. I still don't believe anybody gave me a case on her either from my question in 481, only FB responding and telling me to vote Wanderer.

Vedith seems awfully concerned about lynching WW only.

VOTE: Vedith

I am thinking Wanderer and Vedith as mafia. WW TBD.

If you see them both as scum, why wouldn't you vote the one that already had a decent sized wagon?

Wanderer

- What reads do you have? You haven't placed a vote yet toDay, which is odd considering how much finger pointing you seem to be doing.

[shaddowez]

Hi shaddowez, did you read my 515? All the fingerpointing I'm doing? That makes it look like I have a multitude of suspects and not voting any of them while really I only have 1 real suspect currently, and I'm sceptical of Titus. I'm not caught up enough yet to make a good vote.

505 looks like you're calling out Firebringer, 511 outright says you think hayato is scum, and then Vedith is your primary read.

I'm not liking the fact that there's absolutely no counter wagon to Wanderer. If nothing else that gives me a slight town read, as scum and WW are both willing to get on any wagon that's not their own faction. I still don't believe anybody gave me a case on her either from my question in 481, only FB responding and telling me to vote Wanderer.

Isn't there only one werewolf left? Or am I missing something?

I never said there was more than 1 WW. The both in my statement referred to the predicates scum and WW, not multiple WW. (Also, notice the both was after WW, not before).

ok, so shaddowez's reasoning doesn't make sense. Cool!

What reasoning are you talking about? And wouldn't actually asking about them be more in line with scum hunting than just saying "Cool!" ?

[shaddowez]

@shaddowez: How does 505 look like I'm calling out Firebringer? Reread 511, you missed a bunch.

505 isn't an outright FoS, but your comment of "If you're scum..." reads to me like a way to raise suspicion. I know there's more information in 511, but I don't see anything that reverses your read on Hayato.

Shaddowez, I'm referring to my 525. You're using the fact that there's no counterwagon to Wanderer as a reason to townread him, but if he's a werewolf then where is the counterwagon going to come from? I don't need to ask you because the answer is nowhere. So I can quite confidently say that the reasoning doesn't make sense, right?

That's assuming she's WW. If she's scum, there would still be a reason for a counterwagon. Your assumption would have to be based on knowing she's not scum, which there's only one way to know.

me.

You mean the one where I call out your reading comprehension and ask you to actually interact? To quote you, cool.

Call it an OMGUS, but I'm getting a pretty scummy vibe from DV. Votes IS early on, then moves over to Vedith because he reads me as scummy, but doesn't like Vedith's response to me. Joins the middle of the IS wagon on D2 with no real explanation. That and his reaction to my defending the Wanderer wagon has me willing to do this.

VOTE: DeasVail

[shaddowez]

FB really does have a summoning power.

@Shadow - Can you elaborate on the DV read?
I don't like how DV is trying to call me town without need (Not even call me town but put a full blown case as if I'm at L1). There is no indication that I am getting lynched today as it stands but yet it's like he is trying to sweet talk me into voting you.

Also @ Shadow - I'm getting a sketchy feeling with FB too. What's your opinion on FB/DV as the scum team?

His D1 play with IS had me wary, but not so much I had a full scum read yet. I'm mainly talking about posts 70 through 77, where he doesn't like the 3-person theory, yet votes IS based on it because it's the best there is. Then he jumps off that wagon to vote you (Vedith) because he doesn't like your response to me 274 lists out a bunch of scum reads, with IS being one of them, but "bringing up the rear". Completely skips over Wanderer in his reads list in 507, which I don't want to get into a read on Wanderer based off of because of WIFOM, but for town to be doing a catch up reads list you would think they'd include everybody.

As for FB, I'm actually not reading him as scum in this game. It's mostly gut and how I'm reading him in this game compared to others I've been in with him recently. What specific interactions make you think they'd be a team?

@Shaddowez: Your original post included WW in your reasoning, and considering that there's only 2 mafia, it's still kind of flawed considering there is a fair number of people that haven't voted for wanderer. I'm not sure what you're expecting counter-wagon-wise, but 2 mafia are not going to be incredibly obvious and wagon together right away if they can help it anyway (in most circumstances).

You mean the one where I call out your reading comprehension and ask you to actually interact?

Please tell me where there was a problem with my reading comprehension. Why are you being all high and mighty about getting me to interact when there was nothing for me to gain from it?

Of course my post had WW as part of the reasoning - if it didn't, I wouldn't be looking at the entirety of the game. The problem is I never said anything about multiple WW being left, which is what you read and seem to be trying to use as a flaw in my argument. There's three scum left, so the only way I see there being no counterwagon is if Wanderer is town (neither WW(1) or scum(2) would care who gets lynched, so they vote for whoever, or if she's WW (same argument as town applies to the mafia team here, but if she's a goon the other goon would probably be trying to start a wagon somewhere else). Since I don't think she's WW, that leaves me believer she's either a goon or a townie, and since I've not seen any actual good argument for her being a goon, even after asking multiple times, I'm prone to thinking she's a town wagon right now.

[shaddowez]

Prodge, be back tomorrow night

[shaddowez]

Shiro

, what do you think of DV?

I can get behind an NM lynch (while not exactly pressuring, I had been trying to get more from him - see 188, 221, and 268. I'd rather get a VC first, though.

[shaddowez]

After nm flips scum, we should turbo lynch DV.

I'm more than okay with this.

Intent to hammer NM

[shaddowez]

VOTE: Not_Mafia

[shaddowez]

VOTE: Titus

Last WW. Sheep me.

[shaddowez]

Oh I think it's an alright theory, and for that stage of the game it was better than anything else I had. I just didn't see it as giving a super strong indication of alignment.

I see

. Interested in what else you think about him, and also looking for your info on Vedith.

[shaddowez]

Here's the thing, Titus - I don't care if you try to cc me or not. Why?

Let's say town believes you and they lynch me. You have a 50/50 chance of killing scum tonight, you get speed lynched tomorrow(your faction loses), and I can still win with town in LYLO.

Even if you get town tonight, you'll still get lynched tomorrow and lose.

So, give it your best shot.

[shaddowez]

I think you need to read my post better - WW team loses either way, there's a chance of town winning though it's not guaranteed.

One of us (me) is the real seer - whichever one gets lynched first will result in the second being speedlynched if they're wrong. Either way, WW loses, so gambiting to try and reveal the real seer would be dumb. As I said earlier, lynch me if you want, I know you die next and will still lose.

[shaddowez]

Well done all. Enjoy your loss, town

[shaddowez]

I'm happy to know my reads weren't complete shit this game, though they were pretty bad early on.

Grats Titus - I can't believe I got speed lynched without you having to prove anything.

Town - I have never seen town giving away scum suggestions like Titus was - were I scum and she got lynched, she gave me the moves to make it the same scenario, even if I hadn't thought of it (which, I hadn't, hence my posts).

Good job to you as well, Shiro. Wasn't sure who the last scum was between you and FB.