Mini 1715 - Z - Game over!

[Thor665]

I didn't say it hurt town, just that I fail to see how it helps town.

I think wagons help town - but if your reaction to it is that you simply don't understand it - why do you dislike it as an answer?

Also, to expound upon why I think your first post was weird, it sounds an awful lot like "Hey mod, you know why I'm voting *wink wink*." This makes it sound like you had a dialogue before the game, which would only be possible for scum.

And then decided to reference it in thread because I'm a moron?
As opposed to poking at the mod over his, at the time, ruleset about votes and when and how they needed to be explained.
I don't think that makes much sense - why do you?

[zakk]

EXPERIMENT NOTES 1.10

SUBJECTS ASSERTING AGGRESSIVE ACTIVITY:

Ciara24 [3] Thor665, KarmicGuide, Radja
davesaz [2] Garmr, Bellaphant
eventi [2] davesaz, Nachomamma8
KarmicGuide [2] WoodyWoodpecker, gummmybear
Thor665 [1] pistachi0n
Bellaphant [0]
Fro99er [0]
Garmr [0]
gummmybear [0]
Nachomamma8 [0]
pistachi0n [0]
Radja [0]
WoodyWoodpecker [0]

SUBJECTS DISPLAYING PASSIVE TENDENCY:

Ciara24, eventi, Fro99er

[WoodyWoodpecker]

Sorry guys, work has been slammed this week, I'll try and catch up sometime this weekend.

[eventi]

It was so quiet, tho

[KarmicGuide]

Strongest townread--Probably KarmicGuide

I found it pretty weird that KarmicGuide didn't try to interact with me after my vote. Especially after I stated that the purpose was to cause interaction.
Setting that aside as bait that caught no fish, if I look at what he did post, it does look town to me. I wouldn't go as far as to say strong.
UNVOTE: KarmicGuide

I haven't made up my mind on Garmr yet. I don't remember him townreading me in a single game yet, so it could just be that my style rubs him the wrong way. I'm making a conscious effort to not scumread people for scumreading me, because it prevents me from seeing other scummy things. On the other hand, the case he's trying to make is the type I might try to make as scum, since it's easier to disengage by writing it off as a misunderstanding. Could go either way.

I don't see whatever it is that Thor is being scumread for.

Radja's response seemed town to me. Not a strong read but fairly clear.

Bella isn't doing much, but I don't have enough other game experience to compare to, to make an alignment call based on it.

I wanted to think of a clever response back, but one never came.

I also think that your posts so far, about seashells, Nacho being a girl, about Demolition Man, might be intentional spam. You're trying to look like town by posting a lot, but posting a lot of nonsense doesn't help town.

Do you really think making 6 nonsense posts helps scum? How?

Maybe not by itself, but add to that more posts that aren't particularly effective scumhunting (defensive posts, repeating oneself, etc) and you're really worsening the signal-to-noise ratio of Day 1. It gives the appearance of a long and fruitful day, and then somebody town gets lynched, and you suddenly find that the 30 pages of Day 1 aren't as valuable as you'd have liked.

Ok, I just finished reading the thread, and here are my thoughts so far:

1. Woody strikes me as Town, mainly because he is actively scumhunting and propelling the discussion forward without super aggressive tunnelling. That being said, I wouldn't call Karmic's "immediate unvote" argument lying. At best it's a misunderstanding; at worst it's trying to see what accusations stick. Also, I don't think Woody's [#24] is alignment indicative without other posts where he uses it as an excuse.

2. I am vaguely uncomfortable at all the posts citing previous games as reasons for reads. Meta reads are not reliable, although I understand using them when you have nothing else to go on.

3. Thor's play seems weird. First, he votes Ciara with no stated reason then attacks Ciara for assuming that his vote was a sheep on Nacho's, which at that point was a valid assumption to make with lack of evidence to the contrary. Also, his blatant attempts to get Woody and Garmr to follow his lead and vote Ciara reek of scum trying to push a weak wagon.

Before I cast a vote, I would like Thor to answer this question: What was your initial reason for voting Ciara? You obviously had one (or at least claimed to have one) because you specifically told the mod to ask you for clarification if needed.

Welcome to the game!

Can you elaborate on why meta-reads aren't reliable? I'm sorry if I'm asking about fundamentals here, but this goes contrary to what I would've assumed.

I read Thor trying to get Woody and Garmr on the Ciara wagon quite differently.

[Garmr]

@Davesaz link the games we played together please because i only remember 2 we only played two and ones ongoing and the other one I was scum.

[davesaz]

Links for completed games in common with Garmr:

Masquerade (you replaced out)
Apocalypse (you replaced out)
Picking Simplicity (you were scum)

[pistachi0n]

@Nacho re 210: I didn't say it was a scumread. I dislike it, but most of the people I've seen doing it are town.

@Thor re 215: That's just how I play. I don't have a justification, it's just how I try to understand people.

[Gimlear]

Welcome to the game!

Can you elaborate on why meta-reads aren't reliable? I'm sorry if I'm asking about fundamentals here, but this goes contrary to what I would've assumed.

I read Thor trying to get Woody and Garmr on the Ciara wagon quite differently.

Meta can be used to determine someone's general playstyle but shouldn't be used by itself as proof of someone's alignment because meta can shift from game to game. I just don't like arguments along the lines of "X usually does this when of alignment Y. Therefore, X must be alignment Y." (Not that anyone here is guilty of this yet.) I would just rather analyze someone's play in the current game than try to extrapolate based on previous games.

So, how do you read Thor's attempts to gather a Ciara wagon?

[davesaz]

In the past few months I've seen scum nailed by meta. But lots of town mislynched too.

[Thor665]

@Thor re 215: That's just how I play. I don't have a justification, it's just how I try to understand people.

Okay...

Don't have conversations with me asking me to consider stuff you're making up wholecloth though - it bugs me and I find it meaningless. You can keep those to yourself or others.

Want to vote Ciara now?

[KarmicGuide]

Welcome to the game!

Can you elaborate on why meta-reads aren't reliable? I'm sorry if I'm asking about fundamentals here, but this goes contrary to what I would've assumed.

I read Thor trying to get Woody and Garmr on the Ciara wagon quite differently.

Meta can be used to determine someone's general playstyle but shouldn't be used by itself as proof of someone's alignment because meta can shift from game to game. I just don't like arguments along the lines of "X usually does this when of alignment Y. Therefore, X must be alignment Y." (Not that anyone here is guilty of this yet.) I would just rather analyze someone's play in the current game than try to extrapolate based on previous games.

So, how do you read Thor's attempts to gather a Ciara wagon?

Makes sense.

Maybe this is giving Thor too much credit, but I kind of was thinking that Ciara, Woody and Garmr were on the top of his scum list. So vote one, ask the other two how they feel about joining the wagon.

[Garmr]

Links for completed games in common with Garmr:

Masquerade (you replaced out)
Apocalypse (you replaced out)
Picking Simplicity (you were scum)

Well in the first and last game I was scum and the middle game I said I didn't have enough to read you yet.

[pistachi0n]

Don't have conversations with me asking me to consider stuff you're making up wholecloth though - it bugs me and I find it meaningless. You can keep those to yourself or others.

I will not do that with you anymore.

Want to vote Ciara now?

No.

[Garmr]

@thor You know there really isn't much merit on your case on ciara after my post saying why I thought it was null you just pretty much said this.

To be honest I don't think you really have a credible case.

What case do you currently find more credible and why?
If the answer is "none" why can't I get a sheep from you?

This makes me feel very uneasy because instead of trying to justify your case and why it's right you instead were deflecting it with another question. This means you know it weak (which at the start of any game is understandable) but the fact you continue to push that this is the right place and trying to get people to sheep it makes me concerned and tbh I am getting a little paranoid over that wagon and you.

[Thor665]

Maybe this is giving Thor too much credit, but I kind of was thinking that Ciara, Woody and Garmr were on the top of his scum list. So vote one, ask the other two how they feel about joining the wagon.

I was the first person to openly state a town read on Woody.
I have not changed my thought on that value call.

Want to vote Ciara now?

No.

Do you townread her, or just wish to avoid creating a larger wagon at this point?

This makes me feel very uneasy because instead of trying to justify your case and why it's right you instead were deflecting it with another question. This means you know it weak (which at the start of any game is understandable) but the fact you continue to push that this is the right place and trying to get people to sheep it makes me concerned and tbh I am getting a little paranoid over that wagon and you.

I have justified my case as much as it is able to be justified at this stage of the game - you didn't like it for reasons that are gut based. That sort of ends that conversation - what other angle of approach was I supposed to go with? Just repetition? Or explaining to you why a gut based read seems weak to me? The former is annoying and the latter won't convince you.

The fact that I'm moving my push to other people makes exactly as much sense as me pushing you to vote her did - so it was either scummy when I did it to you or it isn't scummy that I'm moving on and pushing for other votes after realizing I won't get yours.

Your issue makes no sense to me as explained.

[pistachi0n]

I'm reading her null right now. I'm not opposed to a wagon on principle.

[Thor665]

I'm reading her null right now. I'm not opposed to a wagon on principle.

Since your current vote is an unsupported one on me, and I am absorbing a fair shake of town reads (and some scum ones - but they are scattered, unsure, and not pushing me) I would submit the idea that the wagon on me is, as they say, going nowhere fast.

Conversely - the Ciara one has a fair bit of attention in the thread, has some active detractors, and multiple supporters, and is a great place to mine for info.

So...why not vote it and at least read for reactions, especially as you don't really have a push you're excited enough in to be actively pushing?

[davesaz]

The first day of the experiment has begun.

The timestamp of this post was Sun Sep 06, 2015 12:22 pm.
That's good enough to infer the deadline is Sun Sep 20, 2015 but not necessarily good enough to set a time.

@mod,

can we have a

Code: Select all

[countdown][/countdown]

please?

~8 days. I'm thinking we want a real wagon within the next 3 or so days in order to 1. catch scum if we're lucky, 2. get good information, 3. give enough time to shift if we stumble onto a PR.

If you're badgering people about early wagoning, you're missing the point of D1 for town.

[pistachi0n]

Thor, I'm scum reading your attempt to push a huge wagon on Ciara. And like Dave just said, we (probably) have 8 calendar days. I'm not feeling the danger of a no lynch yet. I think what you're doing is a scum driven attempt to get someone you perceive as a threat out of the game. If a no lynch seems impending after a few more calendar days, I will join a wagon that you are not on.

[davesaz]

Badgering people about meant arguing against though i see it can be read both ways.

[Bellaphant]

You seem to be finding a lot of things vaguely suspicious yourself, but aren't contributing a huge amount of content aside from that- do you wanna ask me anything, because there's a lot of noise in the thread.

Who are you voting and why?
The first part of this question is obviously a joke, but the 2nd part is quite serious.

You, bc I thought you were prodding at way too many people for some insignificant reasons. However, your response to Garmr and your posts on this page have mostly changed my mind - specifically your post about wagons, seems really town-orientated and the first time I've agreed with you.

So,

UNVOTE:

@Nacho, I clearly meant 'rvs' and I wanted work out how Thor could be confident of his reads this early (which seemed a little scummy) bc I can't. All that was kinda clear to me, though...
I much prefer your alternative response to Radja! A threat of a vote seems easy and non-committal, your comment actually seems like content. As to Dave, I'm not sure what he didn't like, and how much. Again, it's a commitment thing.

Woody - oh no - bc he's going to keep posting sooo much and making the thread all noisy.

It is exactly what I was doing. I was rushing to get a large wagon.
How does it hurt town?

I didn't say it hurt town, just that I fail to see how it helps town.

Also, to expound upon why I think your first post was weird, it sounds an awful lot like "Hey mod, you know why I'm voting *wink wink*." This makes it sound like you had a dialogue before the game, which would only be possible for scum.

Lol, no.

I'm reading her null right now. I'm not opposed to a wagon on principle.

Since your current vote is an unsupported one on me, and I am absorbing a fair shake of town reads (and some scum ones - but they are scattered, unsure, and not pushing me) I would submit the idea that the wagon on me is, as they say, going nowhere fast.

Conversely - the Ciara one has a fair bit of attention in the thread, has some active detractors, and multiple supporters, and is a great place to mine for info.

So...why not vote it and at least read for reactions, especially as you don't really have a push you're excited enough in to be actively pushing?

@Thor, who is scum-reading you and why?

[Thor665]

I think what you're doing is a scum driven attempt to get someone you perceive as a threat out of the game.

Yeah...because I have played with Ciara before and/or she's a ball of intimidating town power in this game.

@Thor, who is scum-reading you and why?

Gim, Pita, and Garmr - because I'm pushing for a wagon, and apparently only scum push wagons aggressively.

[Thor665]

Thor could be confident of his reads this early (which seemed a little scummy)

Actually this about sums up the entirety of any case against me in this game as I'm aware of it.

[KarmicGuide]

Thor, I'm scum reading your attempt to push a huge wagon on Ciara. And like Dave just said, we (probably) have 8 calendar days. I'm not feeling the danger of a no lynch yet. I think what you're doing is a scum driven attempt to get someone you perceive as a threat out of the game. If a no lynch seems impending after a few more calendar days, I will join a wagon that you are not on.

It's not just a question of eight days, though.

It takes time to get someone to L2, really listen to their claim, see if anyone wants to counterclaim or call BS, etc. Then maybe run someone ELSE up to L2 and do the whole thing again...

Come on, I'm the one who hasn't played in two years, this should be obvious to y'all. I'm fine with a slow D1, if it's productive, but a no lynch is seriously bad news.

Heya Radja, what do you think of Pistachi0n?