In post 8, Wickan wrote:^This seems like it's trying way, way too hard to read into the fifth game post in the thread.
VOTE: talah
Terrible. I understand your perspective, but my POV is that he's getting the game away from RVS hella quick by generating discussion. That's NOT scum.
In post 39, Wickan wrote: In post 11, ICEninja wrote:Well, usually I'm *that* guy that goes in deep on the first page or two but looks like we've got someone already doing it for me. Awesome. Gives me a chance to say "hello" to the handful of players here who I recognize from the old days.
Vote Wickan
. How is it scum motivated to push for information gathering regardless of what page it is?
Scum isn't necessarily. I interpreted that post by Talah as being completely serious, and to the extent it was serious I found it to be trying to find information where there was pretty clearly none. It felt to me like making a mountain out of a molehill.
@talah: I interpreted the townread offer by Titus to be completely in jest. Just normal mafia jabbering. It's not clear to me that that in particular points either way.
In post 31, Frozen Angel wrote:I clearly said I have no problems with your
[talah's]
vote. your tone in the other hand , don't seems like town
This is just plain not true. You did have problems with talah's vote; you thought (like I did) that they were making a serious vote off of obviously RVS/spam material (cf
15 22). I dislike that you try to cover this up.
VOTE: RadiantCowbells
I can't understand what the heck this is. It looks like you're making a case on Frozen, and then voting RC with no explanation.
In post 77, Wickan wrote: In post 53, Taly wrote:In retrospect,
39 wasn't very pleasant either.
Wickan, why do you call out FA for covering up her issue with talah but then you vote on RC? I'm not getting a game-solve vibe from you?
Those are two separate issues. The former I found suspicious, the latter was a vote aimed at RC's weak jump in of "I think FA is town" without any further commentary or a shift in his vote. The two aren't related. I was expressing suspicion of FA, but greater suspicion of RC.
@Johnny: I'm not "twisting" RC's vote at all. RC's response to the whole talah-FA back and forth was to just jump in and say "I like FA for town atm <3"
and leave his vote there anyway.
Yes, I'm aware that that was an RVS vote, but the combination seemed both unhelpful and anti-town.
ICE: What surprises you about how my wagon formed? I actually think it seemed quite natural. I grant that the weirdest part was Taly's jumping off before I even responded, but I didn't find any of the actual votes unusual at all.
Taly's jump, however, does feel bad, as it removed a significant amount of pressure from me before I had even responded. Even if ICE's post had set off alarm bells, I would've expected him to just wait. That's unhelpful to town, but I'm not quite sure why it's scum.
This post... Geez, where do I start? I shipped a little bit that was irrelevant to my point, but really? Your problem is with RC's lack of commentary, so you cast a
naked vote
. Is it scummy, or not? Your vote suggests it is, but your vote is therefore scummy itself. It should not have required prompting to explain that vote.
The response to ICE is calm and collected, and I think that's fairly pro town, contrary to the rest of the post, and I like the points made about Taly here, though it is potentially setting up a vote for later.
In post 113, Wickan wrote:110 is ugly. In the span of that post, Taly a) states that he cannot see how ICE's thought process is town, but thinks that ICE is misguided town; b) claims that his vote on me was meant for pressure, yet doesn't really have an explanation for why he took it off before that pressure did anything; c) argues that his jump on my wagon was definitely not opportunistic; d) claims to "get into a lot of TvT in games; and e) follows along with ICE's hedge on reading Johnny. This looks like a combination of trying to paint his interaction with ICE as town v town and follow along with ICE's other suspicions.
VOTE: Taly
@FA: ICENinja isn't pushing me. Voting for me yes, but pushing me no. I think the wagon on me was normal D1 pressure, which tapered off when Taly decided to prematurely abandon it.
In post 96, ICEninja wrote:As I pointed out earlier, this could make total sense for them to be a scumpair, particularly regarding Wickan's subtle defense of Taly's unvote in
78.
The question in 78 was meant 100% seriously. The problem, as occurred to me while I was writing it, was that the single best answer for why scum-Taly unvoted me is that I was also scum. But from my perspective, that obviously doesn't make sense. I was wondering whether you would notice that Taly's unvote implied that (which you did).
In short, it wasn't meant as a defense of Taly. It was a genuine question, as his unvote made no sense to me from a town
or
scum perspective.
So is Taly's unvote scummy or not? This post is indecisive on the matter because point b paints it as scummy in the first paragraph, but 78 claims it had no scummy motivation for happening. In addition, what happened to RC?
Fair. It was a terrible question. Any answer would've been incredibly scummy.
In post 149, Wickan wrote: In post 147, ICEninja wrote:
I'm very strongly scum reading Wickan right now. I'm quite happy with my vote. This is based on:
-A chain of logic that a townie would basically never have,
Well, I did.
-His original vote of RC that wasn't explained until someone ELSE mentioned it (highly realistic scumpair of Wickan and Titus, probably even more likely than Taly),
I mean, are you saying that I voted RC for no reason? And only came up with that reason later? Yes, I didn't explain it at the time; I thought it an obvious reference to the post he had just made.
-It's small, but he did seem to oppose early discussion with his first vote.
It wasn't opposing early discussion so much as thinking that talah was really, really reaching with that logic.
This post radiates of "fuck you, I'm town." I don't like the response re: RC either, because it's one of those things where he goes "look, I voted him, he must be scum! Go figure out why!" There's only one player I can think of who ever does this consistently as town, and he's constantly scum-read for it. As town, there shouldn't be a reason to naked-vote. Also, is reaching with logic scummy? I only ask because a lot of your logic throughout your ISO seems to be reaching, such as
230 I doubt you've played with RC before if you think that's particularly scummy of him, or
232. If you're scum, you know the motivation behind your actions, and it becomes innately harder to fabricate town-motivated content, whereas if you're town, it's clear what to do and what to look for, but harder to get into the mindset of scum, because you're
not
.
In post 213, Wickan wrote: In post 202, talah wrote:
Wickan
- why drop your vote on RC without saying anything about a changed read?
Because it hadn't.
In post 151, JohnnyFarrar wrote:
@Wickan I think where that falls apart in my head is that ICE doesn't really seem a hugely valuable buddy. At least not so far.
Nobody is really expressing suspicion there (myself included). Seems a perfectly fine D1 buddy to me.
Then why did your only post mentioning him at all between
90 and
213
In post 276, Wickan wrote:@Johnny: let's explore your alternatives to me (obviously I'm your number 1, but I'm curious about 2)
Do you think RC's continuous bringing up of his meta is at all scummy?
Do you think ICE's association tell thing is productive?
Did you actually gain anything from these questions? I didn't really see any sort of follow-up either. What is your read on Johnny?
In post 319, Wickan wrote: In post 314, Frozen Angel wrote:
I'm actually scumreading titus and wiccon as I said before. As I said I feel a weird connection between them.
But their already under pressure and I'm analysing people's reaction about them. I'll post my reads later today (don't have the time right now)
All the more reason to add to the pressure though. If you're suspicious, why would you sit back and let other people handle it? Wouldn't the townie thing to do be to add pressure? It looks like you just want to have other people do the dirty work, so that you can stay above the fray.
This is... Overly poor. What could you possibly gain from these questions? It's like calling him scum without calling him scum. Did you benefit from this at all? If so, explain what you got from these "questions", because I don't see how things in a "wouldn't it be better..." Sort of manner is going to gain information. It's leading.
In post 329, Wickan wrote:But ICE has taken plenty of stands. He thinks I'm scum paired with one of you or Taly. And he's danced w/ RC about meta and us about "how do scum vs town think."
So is your belief that RC is scum reliant on ICE also being scum?
In post 331, Wickan wrote:Okay, I understand. But my question is still there. You're saying that RC is avoiding sorting ICE and saying that that's scummy. But does that also rely on ICE being scum? If we knew for a fact that ICE was town, would that still be problematic??
Again, what did you gain from these questions?
In post 348, Wickan wrote: In post 320, Frozen Angel wrote:
about me pressuring you - I voted you to see your reaction and it was awful. you started accusing others when people started asking you questions. this was weird.
I started accusing others of being scum? Yes, yes I did. That is the game. Do you think that I did so in a particularly suspicious manner, and if so, why?
I read your only meta town game in site and this is not like it all.
I have one game from four months ago. I would argue you're reading way too much into one game.
(also, I would argue that there's plenty of continuity in my town playstyle: I sucked in that game and am doing poorly here
)
I asked you a question about the ones your scum reading in your wagon and you refused to answer.
I think I've basically given my thoughts about all players (well, not Simple Plan, but there's nothing there).
I think the easiest way to read it is on its face: an admission from Albert that he's not going to put much effort into this game. I honestly don't see that as particularly alignment-neutral either way though.
1) Why did you not comment on what was being said about you, choosing instead to redirect? Ignoring concerns is not the way to go.
2) self-meta is scummy. You're basically saying that because people scum-read you, you have to be town, and that's some serious crap.
3) have your reads at all changed? Has Taly done anything more recently than 110 to validate your read further, or was it just early-game that made you suspicious?
4) it's an Albert tell. I can't quite understand- are you saying it is or is not alignment indicative?
In post 406, Wickan wrote:Short case: Taly's
110, his attempts to insist that his discussion w/ you were TvT and his buddying up to you, and going all the way back to his unvote on me early on, removing pressure. Although he does seem to have dropped the townread on you recently (not sure why, as I'm not sure what you've done differently that prompted it). (Taly will promptly dispute that he ever had a townread on you, but I honestly don't know how else to read 110)
See also my
230 for the short case on RC (although slightly out of date, I think most of it still holds)
Also @ICE: see my question above on the Titus wagon. Is it primarily driven by Titus not explaining her reads?
I appreciate the shortened versions of cases and explanations for your reads, but I disagree with 230- that's definitely how RC plays as town. Again, though, what do you hope to gain from this question?
In post 438, Wickan wrote:And for the record, I absolutely 100% still believe that
110 was an attempt to buddy ICE. From the "I get in a lot of TvTs, especially D1" to trying to placate ICE's concerns to agreeing with his reads. It all looks like an attempt to deflect ICE's attention away from you and to other people.
Okay. Anything since then that you find scummy about Taly, or is that scum read based solely off of that one post?
In post 494, Wickan wrote: In post 489, Wickan wrote: In post 488, Albert B. Rampage wrote:I don't like how Wickan is approaching the game trying to find cracks,
it feels like he's patting around the dark for the path of least resistance to a mislynch.
I honestly don't know what this means.
To be precise, the bolded part makes no sense to me.
The latter half I understand, and I guess my only response is "no"
This sort of response isn't really necessary. No what? No you're not searching for cracks in the game? It reads like you are. No you're not searching for the path of least resistance to a mislynch? Fair. You're tunneling the fuck outta Taly, who to the best I can tell is not in today's lynch pool.
In post 508, Wickan wrote: In post 505, talah wrote:Also I actually agree. If you have ABR and Titus as your top townreads you should be voting Ice and I don't know why you would need wining and dining to make that decision.
I really don't see that that follows at all. Just because they're my townreads doesn't mean I agree with them on everything.
Make the case for why ICE is scummy.
Again, I like this post. It feels town in nature because it defends your own reads, and explains a reasoning for not wanting to follow them on a wagon in the same manner, though Titus offers reasoning for the ICE scum read in
218 and Talah does a much more comprehensive job in
408, enough so that I'd sheep it. It bothers me that you didn't see any sort of case on ICE whatsoever to the point of asking it be made again.