Mini 1742: game over

[Albert B. Rampage]

You just come off as pissed that I saw ABR and Wickan as town before you did.

I don't think this is the case.

[Albert B. Rampage]

I'm obviously town and Wickan is too, but RC did write his reasons for lynching you that has nothing to do with that.

[Taly]

Especially since you derailed a wagon everyone seemed to believe was scum, and darted after a vote on me for initiating that wagon to L-1 - for that persons 'survival'

If you think I unvoted Wickan because I'm scum with him, why are you voting Titus now?

A Few Things

1)

I do have reasons in my mind that suggest you tell me you guys are scum, but I'm not 100% tbh; that's why my vote has moved frequently; hence why part of my reason for voting Wickan to L-1 was to get consensus since his wagon wasn't dying at that point, and several people - myself included, believed that he was the most scummy player and I still hold a scumread on him.

2)

There is no way of knowing whether we have 2 or 3 scum in this game; is it a negative that I think 3 people could be scum?

3)

I already explained and referenced several times why in 692 and 694 that Titus' post on me was a big misrep 687, and only to what I can assume was to incriminate me as scum when I voted for Wickan - and since she - nor anybody who has pushed me, has looked at those posts in depth, really puts a big question mark over my head - and the dismissive behavior rings nothing less but scum trying to set-up a mislynch to me.

4)

Titus was the first person to initially gut townread you, and shit all over Wickans wagon - discrediting it while doing little to push any of her own. The fact that you and Titus jumped on my wagon after I unvoted Wickan to L-1 - then he was unvoted - tells me that I'm probably right about one of my theories involving scum between you 3 in some form.

5)

Furthermore, I'm not entirely confirmed on someone having bussed Wickan; but I think it's a major possibility. I'm pursuing anything with my vote that's most likely going to lynch scum or provide an abundant amount of information in helping finding them, or the rest. I'm not townreading the people I've voted for so far.

Now, I'm glad that someone's actually asking me questions...

But I'd like some explanation from your side at some point...

Not even for ABR?

Definitely not.

ABR towned up the slot a metric ton since I was scumreading him. He's not one of my major lynch interests.

I want Titus and I want her badly.

[RadiantCowbells]

You're voting Titus too, I thought.

What's your comment?

[Titus]

I'm obviously town and Wickan is too, but RC did write his reasons for lynching you that has nothing to do with that.

I haven't understood any of them.

[Taly]

You're voting Titus too, I thought.

What's your comment?

I am voting Titus, and I still want her lynch too.

I just see that Johnny and people on Wickans wagon have a very similar feeling about him as you do Titus from what it seems.

I feel like nothing is really getting done unless someone does something, and I'm not finding Wickan and ABR any much townier than I did 2-3 pages ago - which was not town at all. Though I wonder if I should reconsider my ABR read, but I don't believe he's in the lynchpool today.

[JohnnyFarrar]

This hand is stressing me out and the stakes literally couldn't be lower.

I'd lynch almost anyone over Taly if that's what it's coming down to. If he

is

scum then he's somehow developed an entirely different scum game in less than a month, which is not something I'm willing to believe. I'll apologize later if I'm wrong but right now that's my most confident read.

[RadiantCowbells]

Says the guy not voting Titus.

[JohnnyFarrar]

Half the reason I don't want Titus dead is because if she flips town what the fuck was the point

[RadiantCowbells]

She doesn't flip town.

She flips scum.

[mykonian]

votecount

Wickan (4): ICEninja, JohnnyFarrar, Taly, talah
Taly (3): Wickan, Albert B. Rampage, Titus
Titus (2): RadiantCowbells, Frozen Angel

not voting (1): A Simple Plan

[JohnnyFarrar]

There's no reason this Wick wagon shouldn't be happening. It has enough stated support.

[A Simple Plan]

Spoiler: so, I ISO'd Wickan...

^This seems like it's trying way, way too hard to read into the fifth game post in the thread.

VOTE: talah

Terrible. I understand your perspective, but my POV is that he's getting the game away from RVS hella quick by generating discussion. That's NOT scum.

Well, usually I'm *that* guy that goes in deep on the first page or two but looks like we've got someone already doing it for me. Awesome. Gives me a chance to say "hello" to the handful of players here who I recognize from the old days.

Vote Wickan

. How is it scum motivated to push for information gathering regardless of what page it is?

Scum isn't necessarily. I interpreted that post by Talah as being completely serious, and to the extent it was serious I found it to be trying to find information where there was pretty clearly none. It felt to me like making a mountain out of a molehill.

@talah: I interpreted the townread offer by Titus to be completely in jest. Just normal mafia jabbering. It's not clear to me that that in particular points either way.

I clearly said I have no problems with your

[talah's]

vote. your tone in the other hand , don't seems like town

This is just plain not true. You did have problems with talah's vote; you thought (like I did) that they were making a serious vote off of obviously RVS/spam material (cf 15 22). I dislike that you try to cover this up.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

I can't understand what the heck this is. It looks like you're making a case on Frozen, and then voting RC with no explanation.

In retrospect, 39 wasn't very pleasant either.

Wickan, why do you call out FA for covering up her issue with talah but then you vote on RC? I'm not getting a game-solve vibe from you?

Those are two separate issues. The former I found suspicious, the latter was a vote aimed at RC's weak jump in of "I think FA is town" without any further commentary or a shift in his vote. The two aren't related. I was expressing suspicion of FA, but greater suspicion of RC.

@Johnny: I'm not "twisting" RC's vote at all. RC's response to the whole talah-FA back and forth was to just jump in and say "I like FA for town atm <3"

and leave his vote there anyway.

Yes, I'm aware that that was an RVS vote, but the combination seemed both unhelpful and anti-town.

ICE: What surprises you about how my wagon formed? I actually think it seemed quite natural. I grant that the weirdest part was Taly's jumping off before I even responded, but I didn't find any of the actual votes unusual at all.

Taly's jump, however, does feel bad, as it removed a significant amount of pressure from me before I had even responded. Even if ICE's post had set off alarm bells, I would've expected him to just wait. That's unhelpful to town, but I'm not quite sure why it's scum.

This post... Geez, where do I start? I shipped a little bit that was irrelevant to my point, but really? Your problem is with RC's lack of commentary, so you cast a

naked vote

. Is it scummy, or not? Your vote suggests it is, but your vote is therefore scummy itself. It should not have required prompting to explain that vote.

The response to ICE is calm and collected, and I think that's fairly pro town, contrary to the rest of the post, and I like the points made about Taly here, though it is potentially setting up a vote for later.

110 is ugly. In the span of that post, Taly a) states that he cannot see how ICE's thought process is town, but thinks that ICE is misguided town; b) claims that his vote on me was meant for pressure, yet doesn't really have an explanation for why he took it off before that pressure did anything; c) argues that his jump on my wagon was definitely not opportunistic; d) claims to "get into a lot of TvT in games; and e) follows along with ICE's hedge on reading Johnny. This looks like a combination of trying to paint his interaction with ICE as town v town and follow along with ICE's other suspicions.

VOTE: Taly

@FA: ICENinja isn't pushing me. Voting for me yes, but pushing me no. I think the wagon on me was normal D1 pressure, which tapered off when Taly decided to prematurely abandon it.

As I pointed out earlier, this could make total sense for them to be a scumpair, particularly regarding Wickan's subtle defense of Taly's unvote in 78.

The question in 78 was meant 100% seriously. The problem, as occurred to me while I was writing it, was that the single best answer for why scum-Taly unvoted me is that I was also scum. But from my perspective, that obviously doesn't make sense. I was wondering whether you would notice that Taly's unvote implied that (which you did).

In short, it wasn't meant as a defense of Taly. It was a genuine question, as his unvote made no sense to me from a town

or

scum perspective.

So is Taly's unvote scummy or not? This post is indecisive on the matter because point b paints it as scummy in the first paragraph, but 78 claims it had no scummy motivation for happening. In addition, what happened to RC?

And I am pointedly refusing to answer the question.

Fair. It was a terrible question. Any answer would've been incredibly scummy.

I'm very strongly scum reading Wickan right now. I'm quite happy with my vote. This is based on:
-A chain of logic that a townie would basically never have,

Well, I did.

-His original vote of RC that wasn't explained until someone ELSE mentioned it (highly realistic scumpair of Wickan and Titus, probably even more likely than Taly),

I mean, are you saying that I voted RC for no reason? And only came up with that reason later? Yes, I didn't explain it at the time; I thought it an obvious reference to the post he had just made.

-It's small, but he did seem to oppose early discussion with his first vote.

It wasn't opposing early discussion so much as thinking that talah was really, really reaching with that logic.

This post radiates of "fuck you, I'm town." I don't like the response re: RC either, because it's one of those things where he goes "look, I voted him, he must be scum! Go figure out why!" There's only one player I can think of who ever does this consistently as town, and he's constantly scum-read for it. As town, there shouldn't be a reason to naked-vote. Also, is reaching with logic scummy? I only ask because a lot of your logic throughout your ISO seems to be reaching, such as 230 I doubt you've played with RC before if you think that's particularly scummy of him, or 232. If you're scum, you know the motivation behind your actions, and it becomes innately harder to fabricate town-motivated content, whereas if you're town, it's clear what to do and what to look for, but harder to get into the mindset of scum, because you're

not

.

Wickan

- why drop your vote on RC without saying anything about a changed read?

Because it hadn't.

@Wickan I think where that falls apart in my head is that ICE doesn't really seem a hugely valuable buddy. At least not so far.

Nobody is really expressing suspicion there (myself included). Seems a perfectly fine D1 buddy to me.

Then why did your only post mentioning him at all between 90 and 213

@Johnny: let's explore your alternatives to me (obviously I'm your number 1, but I'm curious about 2)

Do you think RC's continuous bringing up of his meta is at all scummy?

Do you think ICE's association tell thing is productive?

Did you actually gain anything from these questions? I didn't really see any sort of follow-up either. What is your read on Johnny?

I'm actually scumreading titus and wiccon as I said before. As I said I feel a weird connection between them.

But their already under pressure and I'm analysing people's reaction about them. I'll post my reads later today (don't have the time right now)

All the more reason to add to the pressure though. If you're suspicious, why would you sit back and let other people handle it? Wouldn't the townie thing to do be to add pressure? It looks like you just want to have other people do the dirty work, so that you can stay above the fray.

This is... Overly poor. What could you possibly gain from these questions? It's like calling him scum without calling him scum. Did you benefit from this at all? If so, explain what you got from these "questions", because I don't see how things in a "wouldn't it be better..." Sort of manner is going to gain information. It's leading.

But ICE has taken plenty of stands. He thinks I'm scum paired with one of you or Taly. And he's danced w/ RC about meta and us about "how do scum vs town think."

So is your belief that RC is scum reliant on ICE also being scum?

Okay, I understand. But my question is still there. You're saying that RC is avoiding sorting ICE and saying that that's scummy. But does that also rely on ICE being scum? If we knew for a fact that ICE was town, would that still be problematic??

Again, what did you gain from these questions?

about me pressuring you - I voted you to see your reaction and it was awful. you started accusing others when people started asking you questions. this was weird.

I started accusing others of being scum? Yes, yes I did. That is the game. Do you think that I did so in a particularly suspicious manner, and if so, why?

I read your only meta town game in site and this is not like it all.

I have one game from four months ago. I would argue you're reading way too much into one game.
(also, I would argue that there's plenty of continuity in my town playstyle: I sucked in that game and am doing poorly here )

I asked you a question about the ones your scum reading in your wagon and you refused to answer.

I think I've basically given my thoughts about all players (well, not Simple Plan, but there's nothing there).

Unsure of how to read ABR's 341....

I think the easiest way to read it is on its face: an admission from Albert that he's not going to put much effort into this game. I honestly don't see that as particularly alignment-neutral either way though.

1) Why did you not comment on what was being said about you, choosing instead to redirect? Ignoring concerns is not the way to go.
2) self-meta is scummy. You're basically saying that because people scum-read you, you have to be town, and that's some serious crap.
3) have your reads at all changed? Has Taly done anything more recently than 110 to validate your read further, or was it just early-game that made you suspicious?
4) it's an Albert tell. I can't quite understand- are you saying it is or is not alignment indicative?

Short case: Taly's 110, his attempts to insist that his discussion w/ you were TvT and his buddying up to you, and going all the way back to his unvote on me early on, removing pressure. Although he does seem to have dropped the townread on you recently (not sure why, as I'm not sure what you've done differently that prompted it). (Taly will promptly dispute that he ever had a townread on you, but I honestly don't know how else to read 110)

See also my 230 for the short case on RC (although slightly out of date, I think most of it still holds)

Also @ICE: see my question above on the Titus wagon. Is it primarily driven by Titus not explaining her reads?

I appreciate the shortened versions of cases and explanations for your reads, but I disagree with 230- that's definitely how RC plays as town. Again, though, what do you hope to gain from this question?

And for the record, I absolutely 100% still believe that 110 was an attempt to buddy ICE. From the "I get in a lot of TvTs, especially D1" to trying to placate ICE's concerns to agreeing with his reads. It all looks like an attempt to deflect ICE's attention away from you and to other people.

Okay. Anything since then that you find scummy about Taly, or is that scum read based solely off of that one post?

I don't like how Wickan is approaching the game trying to find cracks,

it feels like he's patting around the dark for the path of least resistance to a mislynch.

I honestly don't know what this means.

To be precise, the bolded part makes no sense to me.

The latter half I understand, and I guess my only response is "no"

This sort of response isn't really necessary. No what? No you're not searching for cracks in the game? It reads like you are. No you're not searching for the path of least resistance to a mislynch? Fair. You're tunneling the fuck outta Taly, who to the best I can tell is not in today's lynch pool.

Also I actually agree. If you have ABR and Titus as your top townreads you should be voting Ice and I don't know why you would need wining and dining to make that decision.

I really don't see that that follows at all. Just because they're my townreads doesn't mean I agree with them on everything.

Make the case for why ICE is scummy.

Again, I like this post. It feels town in nature because it defends your own reads, and explains a reasoning for not wanting to follow them on a wagon in the same manner, though Titus offers reasoning for the ICE scum read in 218 and Talah does a much more comprehensive job in 408, enough so that I'd sheep it. It bothers me that you didn't see any sort of case on ICE whatsoever to the point of asking it be made again.

Summary: Laced with questions that aren't exactly beneficial and terrible posts- features a horrible self-meta assessment, tunneling, and early problems explaining his vote. I can definitely see town motivation slipping in through some of his posts, but I'm leaning scum overall, and I'm okay with this wagon.

See above for main reasoning. Unless I missed it, Wickan ignored it completely. This is what I did find though..

Wickan and ASS need to pick wagons.

I don't like ASP or Titus wagons though.

Care to explain why?

Not Voting: Johnny, Titus, Albert
Could Be Talked Into Voting, But I Wouldn't Be Happy: ICE, Frozen, Talah
Happy To Vote: Taly, RC
I Have No Thoughts: A Simple Plan

Shift ASP up to "Not Voting"

Over one post of content? What makes me so incredibly town from one post?

VOTE: Wickan

L-1. I didn't get any sort of reaction I was hoping for. Maybe some answers, a response other than town-reading me... Something. Even others' "why is he suddenly doing this now" is better than "okay that's town." I get it, y'all are gonna call it opportunistic. So be it. I had reason to vote earlier, didn't get the response to my case I was hoping... L-1

[Titus]

There's no reason this Wick wagon shouldn't be happening. It has enough stated support.

Maybe cuz it's scum driven? You think of that?

[JohnnyFarrar]

Who's the scum driving it? I'm awful trusting

[Taly]

Says the guy not voting Titus.

She doesn't flip town.

She flips scum.

RC... you can do better than this.

Half the reason I don't want Titus dead is because if she flips town what the fuck was the point

That could either validate part of RC's tunnel theory on Titus who is scum WKing town - or remove it as a possibility.

But... I feel like this could also happen if we lynch Wickan, which I'm leaning towards since RC is just telling people to sheep him...

There's no reason this Wick wagon shouldn't be happening. It has enough stated support.

Maybe cuz it's scum driven? You think of that?

Most likely scum stopped driving it the first time I put it to L-1, and then the unvotes occurred - and then I got wagoned for literally no stated reason.

Like duh.

>>>>>

@Mod.... My vote is on Titu-

....

You know what, I'm just going to make this legal.

UNVOTE: Titus
VOTE: Wickan

Now this is at L-1 ---- Unless SP is somehow working solely based off of my idea of the theory of him and Wickan being scum - and working against it - which is only something I want to look at post-flip, then I'm feeling confident in the wagon right now.

[Frozen Angel]

ok I'm back catching up

page 21-25 :
ABR changes his view very lot. I don't like it. post 501 is not NICE
talah seems so certain about his town reads.
SP is suddenly under suspicious. he suddenly start posting ...
I like Johny views. He is actively trying.
ok ABR is on Wickan (after advertising Ice two pages ago)
SP admit he didn't read the thread and skimmed it.
Taly comes with his usuall wall posts asking wickan about his read list
talah advertise a SP lynch
Sp - talah chat seems t v t but I'm not sure
Taly asks people about possible scum teams
Jhony advertises a wickan lynch
Taly unvote Titus becuase it ain't gonna happen today (we have a LOT of time - if you believe that you might wanna try more?)
RC tunnel on titus actually give me a good feeling. I saw RC as scum likes to branch and bonde to find a suitable place to vote

page 26-30
RC promised a massive wall post - never came to light
Ice states he is fine with titus lynch (no vote) and giving sp more time to catch up
Titus states her desire to vote ASP - can't see why - game is about talking isn't it?
2 sudden votes on wickan from jhony and taly put him in L1
I voted titus to test a theory - RC is not likly scum
Titus start massive posting after my vote. not directly aimed for me or RC. just trying to show her active
Wickon came with a comment about Titus not his lynch : " RadiantCowbells's post read like a desperate attempt to justify a Titus scumread."
Titus asks wickon opinion about johnny (why johnny?!! why so suddenly him?)
Wickn states he don't like ASP - titus votes
Titus voted taly (how many alt -hydra acc's you have )
taly joined titus wagon - talah joined a wickon wagon
titus make her usual townblock. I expected that from her sooner

page 31-till now
ABR is happy with his taly vote
SP finally catches up and voting wickan.
taly is back on wickan wagon

oookay!
so
taly what motives you for all these fast changes? it seems you just want a lynch on wickan - titus ?
SP what is your current read list?
Titus why are you so sure about your town block?
ABR why are you so creepy?!
Johny whats your read on taly and titus exactly - you said your not going on each but more agreed about a titus lynch?
RC why no attack on me yet this game?
ICE why are you blaming town? your not one? start making data instead please ...
talah - I actually have no questions from you --

and yeah wickan really deserve this.

Intent to hammer Wickan

please next time your online Role claim

[JohnnyFarrar]

Johny whats your read on taly and titus

Taly is playing entirely different from his scum game. If he's scum he deserves to win because the 180 he's pulled here is stark.

Titus is an outspoken person who thinks entirely different from me which is useful. I haven't seen anything from her that screams scum so right now I'd rather have her here keeping me engaged than dead and providing nothing.

[JohnnyFarrar]

RC tunnel on titus actually give me a good feeling. I saw RC as scum likes to branch and bonde to find a suitable place to vote

Disagree on this, I've seen him latch on to one person unmovingly as scum as well (hell that one person

was Titus

last time)

[ICEninja]

Finally an intent to hammer, ugh. I don't think I've ever been in a day 1 that stretched to 32 pages before in a 13 man game, let alone a 10 man. In fact, I think I've played entire games this short.

FA, I wasn't any one specific player, but town as a collective whole. What does "start making data instead" mean?

[JohnnyFarrar]

I'm gonna say she was saying "Quit bitching and actually do something" in her own, much nicer way.

Also yeah pretty sure I've been in entire games shorter than my ISO in this one

[Wickan]

Claim: Hider

[Titus]

RC tunnel on titus actually give me a good feeling. I saw RC as scum likes to branch and bonde to find a suitable place to vote

Disagree on this, I've seen him latch on to one person unmovingly as scum as well (hell that one person

was Titus

last time)

Bonus, my read on RC scum was right.

[Titus]

@Frozen, I got like 20 alts. Most are hydras. Dr. Vahlen, Concorde, Blade Dancer and The Light are all me. The rest are hydras.

Why did you just IioA the thread in a incomprehensible manner?

[Frozen Angel]

Because I wasn't here for like 10 pages ...