Mini 1748: ClownTardis Mafia - GAME OVER!

[Persivul]

Prodge. I'll do some shit some time today when I have time and it's not 9AM.

Bullshit. You made half a dozen posts in other threads over the course of the next hour.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Davsto

[Persivul]

A vote is not pressure asking questions is

And I've asked a lot more questions in this game than you have.

Why do you pretend otherwise? Am I just an easy target for you to do some pretend scum hunting? Plenty of people in this game have asked far fewer questions than I have. Why aren't you saying this to them?

[Davsto]

Prodge. I'll do some shit some time today when I have time and it's not 9AM.

Bullshit. You made half a dozen posts in other threads over the course of the next hour.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Davsto

Because reading like 9 pages is really convenient and quick, amirite?

I prioritise some games over others. This is low on my list right now. Give me some goddamn space.

[Persivul]

A vote is not pressure asking questions is

Interesting that you voted me without asking me any questions...

[Persivul]

Prodge. I'll do some shit some time today when I have time and it's not 9AM.

Bullshit. You made half a dozen posts in other threads over the course of the next hour.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Davsto

Because reading like 9 pages is really convenient and quick, amirite?

I prioritise some games over others. This is low on my list right now. Give me some goddamn space.

So this game isn't a high priority...yet when you get a vote you notice it and respond within four minutes.

[Davsto]

When I say that I'm going to do something, I fucking do it. Leave me alone until I can do so.

This game is going to become a repeat of Prozac's BT4 at this rate and that was awful for me.

[Shiro]

@Per
My vote is half gut half sheeping. I said so when I made it.

Never said I have been more productive, I simple said that vote jumping is pretty bleh way to pressure.

[Persivul]

When I say that I'm going to do something, I fucking do it. Leave me alone until I can do so.

This game is going to become a repeat of Prozac's BT4 at this rate and that was awful for me.

If so it's your own damn fault. You lied. If you said

Hey I'll post later, I have more important games right now

, that would have been fine. Note that while others were voting you for lack of activity, I was giving you a break based on your claim that you're slow D1. I'm willing to cut people some slack if they're honest about why they need it. But when you blame your lack of posting on the time of day, then go on to immediately post elsewhere, that's suspicious. Deal with it.

[Adaptive Heap]

When I say that I'm going to do something, I fucking do it. Leave me alone until I can do so.

This game is going to become a repeat of Prozac's BT4 at this rate and that was awful for me.

Are you ever going to do anything? Aside from bitch and gripe and ask for more time?
What's your actual read on Persivul, for example?

Funnily

, I can sort of see where you're coming from here. In that game I actually went to the effort of skimming some of his *other* completed games and found he was generally just not a talker.
But yes he does seem a bit more interested in trite this game compared to his lurky-but-pushy self in our last game.

Why is it funny that we would both come up with similar meta reads on another player?

I'm not just being picky with that question, I have a point. I think I got an early scum rep with some people and my abrasive style keeps them from getting past that. But, if you objectively consider my entire contribution (such as the above on FAQ2) and my motivations you'll likely come to a different conclusion.

Raised eyebrow-type funny.
You've been laying down a lot of opinions I don't agree with and reading back over FAQ's posts in the game you mentioned made me rethink him.

Also I so want to be a nice and professional little puppy in this thread but you/Kuroi/Not_Mafia being general assholes is making me not want to post and/or tilt.
So if you could refrain from acting like cunts that would be really helpful to me.

-t

[Persivul]

@Per
My vote is half gut half sheeping. I said so when I made it.

Why did you bother making it, if you believe that votes don't cause pressure, questions do?

Do you think voteparking is townie? Personally I see it as scummy.

Never said I have been more productive, I simple said that vote jumping is pretty bleh way to pressure.

Yep, you haven't done much at all in this game, then you come on to pressure the person with the biggest wagon. Got it!

Something interesting that you

have

done is defend Davsto 3 times: 117, 146, 164. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt based partially on your 146. Now I'm wondering if you're scum together.

[Shiro]

@Per

Cause I was curious as to why you were switching votes

I think it is null

If you take a question about vote jumping as pressure. Uh ok I guess.

164 is more of a reason to scumread soren than a defense of Dav tbh

Now I'm wondering if you're scum together.

[Persivul]

@Per

Cause I was curious as to why you were switching votes

I think it is null

If you take a question about vote jumping as pressure. Uh ok I guess.

If it was just idle curiosity, it was just fluff and you're not here to scum hunt.

164 is more of a reason to scumread soren than a defense of Dav tbh

OK, in your first six posts you had two direct defenses of davsto and one indirect defense.

[Shiro]

Yea pretty much so. I mean if your reason was bad it might have evolved into something but it didn't.

As I mentioned before I am in that state were most people are different shades of null.

[Persivul]

As I mentioned before I am in that state were most people are different shades of null.

Of course, as you've barely participated. That's the problem. You don't seem interested in moving beyond that state. Although you are interested in defending davsto for some reason.

[Shiro]

Nah I stopped defending Dav. He should get his shit together.

Also I generally get reads by reading what is happening unless something grabs my attention enough to pursue.

.

[Plottin Kittehs]

Prodging to say that I still like Rob better than Persivul.

Also is it just me or do Kuroi's posts on page 18 seem a bit...coached? It's a marked change from the rest of his ISO! I mean, the posts still aren't all that great but it looks kind of like someone went through and said "here i'll help here are some bullet points for you to cover now go talk about them".

Rob13: I'm getting a scummy vibe off him. I'd label him slightly scum at this moment.
Persivul: I'm getting a town read off him.
Frozen Angel: I was going to say slightly scum, until she started mentioning mental illness. I hate reading things like this because when we mention medical disorders or anything like that, it detracts from the game and makes the game more personal. As I've been in games that ended it people hating others, I really hate seeing fun games getting personal. Still, in the spirit of not thinking of this game being personal, I'll put her in slightly scummy territory.
Not_Mafia: He's given me nothing to work with. Something he has done, however, was first saying that he was going to re-read the game. Then today, he calls Heap's argument stupid. I don't know (or really think) it's that alignment indicative, but it rubs me the wrong way.
Soren: Gives me a town vibe.

I didn't want to place a vote until I re-read this and seeing as I need to vote someone, I'll vote for who irks me the worst. To me, I want to vote Not_Mafia or Rob13. I'll keep a close eye to see what Not_Mafia says but for right now, I need to VOTE: Rob13

Which posts of Rob's are the scummiest? Which posts of Persivul's and Soren's do you like the best? What do you like/dislike about these posts? Just treat mentions of real life stuff as null. You say that you are nullreading the people that you don't mention, presumably including Heap. Do you disagree with Not maf about Heap's argument, then? What do you think about Heap's argument? Do you have a read on Heap?

Well, the first thing that pops out at me is your dismissal and deflection off Persival's questions. You also appear defensive and emotionally involved in the game. You also did do a couple of goal-moving posts, but I don't think you understand what that means.

It also doesn't really help that I'm a grammar nazi and reading what you write is akin to claws on a chalkboard. (I don't use that to figure out if you're scummy or not, but I find it difficult to decipher what you say at times.) I understand it's not your first language and I appreciate that, but it drives me nuts.

Lastly, I can't just "forget" issues like the ones you've posted regarding real life issues and emotional/logical difficulties. This is why I find you as just leaning scum. There are many variables and there are many opportunities to learn more about you (granted I'm not lynched or killed in any way) so hopefully we'll find out a bit more.

That's two paragraphs you devote to stuff that you admit that they aren't alignment indicative things. The first paragraph is okay and is the first real analysis you've done. Please cite which posts of Frozen's were goal-moving posts and which questions of Persivul's that she didn't answer.

Frozen Angel: I was going to say slightly scum, until she started mentioning mental illness. I hate reading things like this because when we mention medical disorders or anything like that, it detracts from the game and makes the game more personal. As I've been in games that ended it people hating others, I really hate seeing fun games getting personal. Still, in the spirit of not thinking of this game being personal, I'll put her in slightly scummy territory.

forget mental thing. talk to me. why

He gave reads on you, me, Rob, NM, and Soren...and all you care about is why he finds you scummy...

Actually, this does lessen the scumminess I have on her. Mafia don't want to have attention on themselves and especially when there's no reason to try to defend themselves. It wasn't just her in that list. ...I mean, I still find her more scummy than I do find her town, so I'll still keep her on my "slightly scummy" list, but she wouldn't be the first person I'd lynch.

This looks like it's saying something but really your read on her hasn't changed because you had her as lean scum and now it's still lean scum.

1. If I'm missing something, please point it to me, but I think I remember what you're referring to me but he never seemed of having circular reasoning. Perhaps it sounded circular because it made logical sense - that phrase, "It's come full circle."

2. I don't mean to come across as rude, but it might help if you stopped acting emotional in all your games. If you see yourself getting worked up, take a deep breath. Before you post, ask yourself if there's a better way to phrase it. There are more effective ways to phrase something in most cases.

3. I never said your language was alignment indicative. In fact, I said I wasn't judging your language

wasn't

being used to judge your scumminess. I stated that because you've gotten a lot of crap and it may be because it is often difficult to read the message you're trying to convey. (I don't want to go too far off topic, but what are your other three languages?)

4. Your mental illness isn't really indicative of scum, but it makes things a hell of a lot harder. I don't want to be a dick and vote you because of something about you personally. (#433 I've mentioned I don't want games to be personal.) I gave my view and I've done a lot reading through the game and gathering my thoughts. Right now, I have what I have. I'm sure people would have questions for me and we would discuss them. What do you know? Someone asked me.

My thoughts on Persival were mostly derived by his interactions with you, but also by the rest of the town. He seemed to be very transparent.

And no, I don't have a concrete lynch-list, but I did mention who I find more scummy than others. I wanted to, and still might vote for Not_Mafia, but I have the worst feelings about Rob13 based on his style of playing and many of his comments.

@Persival - I know, but when it comes to day one, I go with what is most likely and I'd estimate it's about a nickel or a dime on every dollar for the mafia who intentionally get themselves in hot water.

1. wat

2. I think this is the kind of condescending thing that scum are more likely to say than town because it discredits Frozen in a "we can't take you seriously if you are having feelings while posting" sort of way.

3 & 4. if it's null then it's not worth talking about.


I did have a tiny reason for thinking that you could be town after all but it would be anti-town to say what it was and it has vanished as of something in this last post.

--P

[Plottin Kittehs]

Persivul (4): FA_Q2, Rob13, Frozen Angel, Plottin Kittehs

Not sure if this VC is still accurate, but I'd call it: scummy, not sure, not sure, emotional (Plottin didn't like that I was a dick to Frozen).

wanted to reply to this too.

it's not really emotional; I think it's more likely for scum to be a dick about real life stuff than town,

because

scum know that they know the person is town and they're trying to fake town paranoia and they think that if they give in and acknowledge the person is upset for real it's the same as admitting that they're town when in reality town are just as likely to use AtE as scum are and being a dick also contributes to a toxic gamestate which benefits scum more than it benefits town.

Like it's not a flat across the board all instances of being a dick = scum, that would be a dumb argument and it depends on the player themselves too. it's...being a dick in a certain way, a sort of over the topness about it that i find hard to explain but i know it when I see it, but it comes from the certainty of the other person's alignment, because if you didn't know what alignment they were then you'd hesitate and think okay is this real or is this not real i don't know whereas when you do know you can say oh it's just AtE discreditdiscreditdiscredit.

in history mafia, someone's mother was in the hospital and town were willing to give them some space and benefit of the doubt and my hydra partner got all vicious at him and I wanted to bus my hydra partner.

I could cite other examples of scum being more gleeful about attacking people for AtE and town being more willing to give the benefit of the doubt from we didn't playtest this (several different scumslots vs several different town slots), refraction, cys, friends and enemies (Persival!), and also from games that i spectated like Genesis.

--P

[Persivul]

Prodging to say that I still like Rob better than Persivul.

Interesting that with all I've done, you view me simply in terms of my interactions with Rob. You'll likely deny that, but that's how you phrased it.

[Persivul]

it's not really emotional; I think it's more likely for scum to be a dick about real life stuff than town,

because

scum know that they know the person is town and they're trying to fake town paranoia and they think that if they give in and acknowledge the person is upset for real it's the same as admitting that they're town when in reality town are just as likely to use AtE as scum are and being a dick also contributes to a toxic gamestate which benefits scum more than it benefits town.

I don't recall that I

was

a dick about real life stuff.

I said "Are you insane?" rhetorically due to a patently false claim. I didn't expect a

yes

response. When I got it, I sincerely suggested that she consider not playing mafia, as it's a game designed to fuck with people's minds.

Like it's not a flat across the board all instances of being a dick = scum, that would be a dumb argument and it depends on the player themselves too. it's...being a dick in a certain way, a sort of over the topness about it that i find hard to explain but i know it when I see it,

Actually, no, you don't.

[Persivul]

Yea pretty much so. I mean if your reason was bad it might have evolved into something but it didn't.

As I mentioned before

I am in that state were most people are different shades of null

.

Nah I stopped defending Dav. He should get his shit together.

Also

I generally get reads by reading what is happening

unless something grabs my attention enough to pursue.

.

That method apparently isn't working very well.

[Plottin Kittehs]

Well the last few pages were mostly you vs Rob so I guess that is how i'm viewing you right now, it's true. Lazy way of saying that i'm still happy with my vote. I read the last five pages but very little stood out to me in a way that would change my mind about stuff.

I'm also all of a sudden in too many games and i'm

still

in catchup mode from the weekend. I will be more fully here later on in the day phase and I'll ISO people and stuff then. I can't right now.

--P

[Davsto]

Ok Davasto lets try talking about the game at hand! Whats your read about Persival - Rob fight?

Well let's see...

Just to be very clear, my flavor spoiler was meant more to educate on regenerations than to speculate. I probably did more speculation than I should have. The mod probably did randomize scum to regenerations now that I think about it. It would have been wise to do so.

Adaptive, I have to think about what you just said in terms of the timing.

I don't see much testing the waters from newb-scum. I generally see either aggressiveness or passiveness in a fairly absolute form, at least very early in the game. Testing the waters comes from newb-town unsure how to find scum more often than newb-scum trying to figure out where to push, in my experience.

Also, that Persivul transition is

awful

. Like, completely awful.

VOTE: Persivul

Convenient unvote just after Persivul unvoted Rob. I think Rob was looking for an excuse to vote Persivul but didn't want it to be seen as OMGUS.

1) You moved onto me when I had two votes (highest at the time) with some really shitty reasoning. You argued the reasoning to the ends of the earth, using strong statements such as "reek of scum", which isn't itself scummy, but ...

2) Other people move off of me, and then suddenly you "feel better about me". You don't give any rationale for this at all. You do reference today's posting and now say you switched to me due to "scummy posting" in the first place, so I assume you haven't gone back on your reasoning from before and are just claiming I'm less scummy lately.

This does not feel like a natural transition at all. It feels like you hopped on to me when a wagon formed and hopped off when the wagon left. Your rationale for joining the wagon looks manufactured. Worse, you're saying that my posts lately which seem townish or nullish (we don't even know, because you've given none of that rationale) somehow nullify my posts earlier that "reek of scum" enough so that you want to vote Soren over me (who you've apparently seen nothing scummy enough from to bother referencing any post or play of his).

You don't need a PBPA to make a vote. You probably should give a reason if you don't want it to look contrived. I'm going to need to hear why you're no longer voting me and why you are voting Soren if I'm to remove my vote from you, because from what I can see, your move onto and off of me look awful.

This post is a flat-out lie. Persivul was the first person to move off voting Rob. Me and Not_Mafia were both also voting Rob, and we hadn't moved our votes off Rob. There's twisting facts, but this is simply lying to make Persivul look bad.

Persivul, like 3 people said they thought I was town between your vote and unvote. The wagon was sinking fast.

Moving the goalposts. He started off saying "moved off me" and talking about votes, and then once Persivul points out he was lying about the votes, he backpedals and says "nonono I meant pressure and people off the wagon saying I'm town".
Basically, Persivul makes good points, whereas Rob finds a flimsy excuse to start voting Persivul and then that falls apart upon expansion. Rob, scum.

Frozen Angel moving the goalposts too, going from "you're not asking me questions" to "you're not asking me questions

I like

, when any town player would just answer those questions when they're presented to them on a silver platter.

I was asking why you made the comment about Not_Mafia's username in the first place.

Also please don't patronise me. I don't find it funny or clever.

-t

Since when did you need a reason to make a joke?

P-edit: I thought at the time that the Davsto wagon was hitting resistance because he was scum. No-one publicly said they had a town-read on Davsto iirc, so that option is highly unlikely. That wagon just kind of went caput for no reason.

There are, what, 13 players in this game? How would my wagon hitting resistance have any bearing on my alignment? Presuming 3:10 scum:town, at most I'd have two people contributing to my wagon meeting resistance due to my alignment. Nothing explains the rest.

Aristophanes has been prodded.

TRANSITION ALERT

Since I voted ari for lurking but he has now been prodded, my vote is no longer needed there and I'm moving it to:

VOTE: FA_Q2

Persivul's taunting of Rob and the like ("TRANSITION ALERT") reads as very town. Scum don't like to intentionally provoke other players who scumread them into scumreading them more. He's literally drawing as much attention as possible to the thing that Rob scumread him for. That doesn't seem like a thing scum would like to do.

[Frozen Angel]

and what about me and persival fight ?

[Persivul]

Good post by davsto. Whether Rob's scum or town, it would be easier for scum to side with him rather than me as Rob has greater site cred and popularity.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: shiro

[Aristophanes]

I have about 10 pages to read. Sorry for disappearing.

Something tells me that Aristophanes is reading waayyy too much into something which we have already shown to be confusing to refer to, plus Frozen isn't native English speaker so she's obviously going to have trouble communicating.

This is true.

So my townread on Frozen Angel holds. (I also have one on Aristophanes, now.)

Still doesn't lessen my scumread on you, though.

Does this hold true with my absence now?