Mini 1755: Game Over

[AlwaysInnocent]

VOTE: UpTooLate

Die scum.

[Keyser Söze]

It sounds retarded to say but the reasons behind this wagon are actually good even if it's wrong about me being scum.

no way
just...no way, how can Rask be town after saying that??

"You're scum because of x, y and z!"

Raskolnikov be like:





Here is

my reaction

if someone says something I posted is even a fraction scum-indicative:

just go look at the clear difference and compare

@pk I looked over the 2 games you linked in 170, for town and scum AI. The differences look subtle to me...looks like he's pushing constipated angles in his scum game, while his town game looks more transparent and he was less adamant about a person to be lynched.

I too

did not

see a "clear difference" that pisskop was expressing.

Spoiler: The invitation is still here if you want to change my mind pisskop

deus/

ai

are where we should be.

Let's go back to here...

Blitz 11 - AI had in depth reads an analysis. He made judgements after publicly displaying his logic
Scum AI pushes people with the least amount of work possible. He calls people scum and finds reasons to scumread them, but his thought process is one-way and his intent to lynch is made clear without the fluff of overanalysis.

@pisskop

- please quote and analyze AlwaysInnocent's posts from this game, juxtaposed with his posts from his scum-game.

I need to see this clearly to be convinced.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Going to play the Devil's advocate.

I also once said that "the reasons for my wagon were so compelling that I would have believed them if I didn't know any better". I was town.

[Keyser Söze]

everything performer has said on this page is towny

Even if I don't have the strongest read I'm really against a wagon going so hard that early especially if they're at L-2 based on my RVS vote. I've seen angry stubborn types, I've seen selfvoter players 3 times in my short experience and as bad as these things are I don't think it should be the basis of a wagon that looked to be L-2 and quickly rising, ircher for example talking about how he wouldn't mind doing it. Especially early day 1 I hate policy wagons and lynches. I looked at his ISO and wondered how you could get a strong read either way so it was just ridiculous.

I'm really tired rn but I think the gist of it is if I don't like the reasons/wagon itself I won't like it even if the guy isn't a strong or even weak townread, though he was weak in this case.

I don't know if I'm caught in

confirmation-bias

but I'm not buying this from town-Raskolnikov.

This is an over-worded explanation for what was in-effect a NOTHING wagon:

Did you really think pisskop was going to get lynched based on two RVS votes, 1 early scum-case, a sheep vote and a self-vote (L-2)?

It was a 'big' reaction for a 'nothing' wagon.

Again, you exercise an overreaction.

Spoiler: Raskolnikov's early play

WTF why are you guys lynching pisskop
UNVOTE:

Alarm bells went off in my head when I read these.

VOTE: Ircher

That's bs he was L-1.

Your

flagrant disregard

for life is a

suspicious

r

e

a

c

t

i

o

n.

+1

FOS on Performer for talking about irrelevant stuff all game.

Keysor are you trying to not take responsibility for your vote because it was a sheep?

You're looking worse with every post.

Townreading Heat and UTL at this point.

Raskolnikov made a bad start IMO - but is this town-Raskolnikov or scum-Raskolnikov now trying to repair his image? I may need to step off my tunnel

[Keyser Söze]

@Dierfire/everyone - I am now on VVA (vacation with variable access) to 23rd January.

[massive]

@massive I didn't see anything in your posts about me, so why the vote?

Mainly the unfounded defense of pisskop's wagon. There's nothing in my mind that should make a townie jump to derail a wagon like that, especially day one. Hence, not townie.

Do you feel that everyone else who voted you has addressed their reasons for doing so?

Oh look, Axle says it better than I did in 395.

Especially early day 1 I hate policy wagons and lynches. I looked at his ISO and wondered how you could get a strong read either way so it was just ridiculous.

How many other games on this site have you played? Probably be interesting to see how true this is.

"accurate" - like a brain surgeon performing surgery, there is no room for fluff/insincerity in his actions/conclusions. i.e I did not think this was scum-droog painting vague scum-portraits of players.

So this is "precise." The more common definition of "accurate" is "free from error or defect," which in Mafia looks a whole lot like "correct regarding town and scum." Was there some level of read-agreement or something that prompted that comment? Because I feel like I have townfeels for you, but that word is just niggling at me for some reason.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Meh, I don't think Raskol is scum.

[Heat]

AI, can you give an updated reads list?

[AlwaysInnocent]

AI, can you give an updated reads list?

You like my lists?

[Heat]

AI, can you give an updated reads list?

You like my lists?

I'd like to know where you're at, and it looks like some of your opinions have changed
Namely ras

[Keyser Söze]

The more common definition of "accurate" is "free from error or defect," which in Mafia looks a whole lot like "correct regarding town and scum." Was there some level of read-agreement or something that prompted that comment?

Yes, maybe I chose the wrong word - "honest" in this sense was misleading -

I did not mean to say that droog/I know what is right/wrong

(i.e who is conclusively town/scum).

Spoiler: Illustration

This is

'Hawkeye'

droog firing many "accurate" shots at his targets:





The thing is, I don't know if his target is actually scum or town, but I can still

see

the accuracy of his shots.

Nor do I know conclusively if Hawkeye is indeed a hero or villain!



...but leaning hero for now.

"read-agreement" (looking at whole ISO): post 292, post 293, post 297, post 299, post 305, post 308, post 309 & post 390.
(If someone is on the same wavelength as you, it inevitably leads to a town gut read).

[Keyser Söze]

I'm undecided on

droog

I'm also undecided on

deus

and

massive

. I haven't seen enough to form a solid read yet.

Regarding "undecided" - can you share with me both the positive and negative points you hold on droog?

I could see how the lack of activity of massive (7 posts) and Deus Asmoth (9 posts) could leave you undecided - but do you hold any positive/negative points on their slot too?

[AxleGreaser]

Oh look, Axle says it better than I did in 395.

Especially early day 1 I hate policy wagons and lynches. I looked at his ISO and wondered how you could get a strong read either way so it was just ridiculous.

How many other games on this site have you played? Probably be interesting to see how true this is.

Most of his games are ongoing, so everyone would have to look for themselves.
While, I do think it might be easy to over persuade yourself by looking at such meta,
if you dont look at the full difference in games and setups. (and how a setup where running people up early is more reasonable and thus might change a players approach)
but even when i do consider all that meta(in the context of the setup) and what i posted in the thread is together enough to convince me to do this.

VOTE: Raskolnikov

TLDR

having read his meta
I don't accept it makes sense for Raskolnikov to be as upset as he was in 131 as i explained in 395

[Raskolnikov]

Can you see that have effectively neutered yourself and any pressure you can apply to anyone

early in the day

by indicating you have no real intention to let lynch happen early?

You're misrepresenting me. Not liking policy or fast lynches early day 1 does not mean I have no intention to pressure or lynch anybody. I think even if a fast wagon finds a scum it's worthwhile to take time and analyse more instead of ending it with like a week left. Applying pressure is good but the feeling I was getting was that people were wanting to just get rid of him rather than pressuring for further info. Read my first game, its very short.

Earlier I also asked you this

In your first post, why did you feel the need to say not serious?

VOTE: pisskop
Not serious.

Please answer now.

You're really desperate to frame me if you scumread this. It was at the phase where it's sort of mixed between RVS and a few people legit voting so I stated that. One game I played people were bothering me because I didn't state if it was RVS or a serious vote so I state it if its not obvious now. You're actually scummy for trying to make a big deal out of this.

Most of his games are ongoing, so everyone would have to look for themselves.
While, I do think it might be easy to over persuade yourself by looking at such meta,
if you dont look at the full difference in games and setups. (and how a setup where running people up early is more reasonable and thus might change a players approach)
but even when i do consider all that meta(in the context of the setup) and what i posted in the thread is together enough to convince me to do this.

VOTE: Raskolnikov

TLDR

having read his meta
I don't accept it makes sense for Raskolnikov to be as upset as he was in 131 as i explained in 395

Okay you essentially don't like me because based on meta you think I was overreacting to the PK wagon. You looked at my incredibly vast meta and determined I was overreacting to the policy wagon building on PK. The meta we can't actually talk about, and the wagon that I came in and saw at L-2.

What you've done is took my reaction and because you saw it as a huge overreaction assumed other things like that I must strong townread PK or that I hate any sort of pressure or wagons which is BS. You know I'm widely scumread atm and back up your vote with meta which is subjective af and I can't engage with. If you actually wanted to put effort into analysing me why wouldn't you look over or say anything of my 315, 320, my vote on ircher or my exchange with keysor but instead you've been trying to fit other things such as RVS vote into a scummy mold. You are #2 now.

[Heat]

@mod- VLA until Jan 17th

Keysor, I'll answer your questions when I get back.

[Ircher]

Just to answer any questions on my experience:

1. I have one newbie game on this site. I have linked to it in my sig along with info on my role and the outcome

2. I have played some mafia on another forum, but it prob. wouldn't count as a full game here. The forum is forum.supercell.net, and I played 2 games. The more recent one, I was 1-shot BP (note that everyone had a PR) and town lost in lylo. The other was never finished and I was a 1-shot BP (again, everyone had a pr). I had died N1 from getting shot by both the vig and the scum. Anyway, if you haven't figured it out, the rules are a lot more casual, and there is way less discussion. My first game on this site prob. has double the number of words those two games combined had. So, I would really say the games do not count except that I learned some basic mechanics of mafia there.

[Ircher]

I voted Droog because we still got time and I want to see what Droog thought about my analysis of him.

[droog]

I voted Droog because we still got time and I want to see what Droog thought about my analysis of him.

did you have thoughts about my thoughts
or are you waiting for me to say something else

[Ircher]

You're misrepresenting me. Not liking policy or fast lynches early day 1 does not mean I have no intention to pressure or lynch anybody. I think even if a fast wagon finds a scum it's worthwhile to take time and analyse more instead of ending it with like a week left. Applying pressure is good but the feeling I was getting was that people were wanting to just get rid of him rather than pressuring for further info. Read my first game, its very short.

I would have to stay that I generally agree with everything Ras says here.

Overall, early lynches are bad for town. And for many of us, Pisskop's wagon was the result of our frustration with his playstyle. And, early lynching is the reason I stayed off the wagon -- read my first game, I behaved exactly the same.

But, let's forget Pisskop's wan; I'm currently thinking {Ras, Droog, Heat} are our scum team with Droog the strongest read and Heat the weakest.

[Ircher]

not even page 3
ircher looks really scummy

the only thing stopping a vote right now
is that ircher is newer and probably not in the swing
still really think keysey hammered him

2 pages isn't much. While I see why you'd scumread me then, I don't see why you would say you would vote me if it weren't my lack of experience. Such a vote would've been fine then, but right now, I think it would be ill-justified.

Time for a read list. The game has almost been solved already.

From town to scum:

Read List D1 V1

{AlwaysInnocent}

{Ircher}

{Performer}

{Lilac, Heat}

{Massive}
{Mafiaturtle}
{Burning_Earth, Deus}

{Raskolnikov}

{Pisskop, Keyser, Axle}

why do you call town scum and scum town
do they play mafia that way where youre from

1. What the heck! This is absolute nonsense; what you just said is AI does not know who town are and who scum are, so therefore, he's completely wrong. Ok, maybe I did poorly stating my thoughts here,

but FOS Droog

, as this could be considered a scumslip. It is AI's opinion, and furthermore, a town player wouldn't know who's town and who's scum except for themselves. Scum on the other hand would.

Respond here

vote: pisskop

Like I dont even care about this game, and the fapterbation and trying to force us out of lylo with overanalysis is something both keysor and ai do.

I scumread ai for sure.  Take a look at his very small meta and tell me why.

VOTE: pisskop

Fixed formatting of vote tags! --Dier

No explanation? More on this further down.

Alarm bells went off in my head when I read these.

2. I really would like an explanation

from @Ras and @Droog

on what was so significant about those posts. I obviously must've done something that really caught your attention, so I'd like more than just Alarm Bells.

And here

He currently ties Ras on scummiest player currently (and yes, I do think both are scum).

@Droog ^

[droog]

What the heck! This is absolute nonsense; what you just said is AI does not know who town are and who scum are, so therefore, he's completely wrong. Ok, maybe I did poorly stating my thoughts here, but FOS Droog, as this could be considered a scumslip. It is AI's opinion, and furthermore, a town player wouldn't know who's town and who's scum except for themselves. Scum on the other hand would.

I am calling ai'a reads backwards

I do not get how you don't
See why I'm voting pisskop
Even he gets that it's policy
To be replaced

isn't much. While I see why you'd scumread me then, I don't see why you would say you would vote me if it weren't my lack of experience. Such a vote would've been fine then, but right now, I think it would be ill-justified.

Well I haven't made one yet

Your reading of me is so backwards
On every point
That you are actually looking more town

[Keyser Söze]

Let's try and use spoilers gents

[AxleGreaser]

You're misrepresenting me. Not liking policy or fast lynches early day 1 does not mean I have no intention to pressure or lynch anybody. I think even if a fast wagon finds a scum it's worthwhile to take time and analyse more instead of ending it with like a week left. Applying pressure is good but the feeling I was getting was that people were wanting to just get rid of him rather than pressuring for further info. Read my first game, its very short.

Yes if you read only that meta, people might guess one way. people need to read >>>all<<< the available meta please.
Should be fairly obvious when you find what i want you too.

and no its not slam dunk.
But, while there exist nervous nelly players that dont even want to vote early D1 without certain information and the blah blah, he is not one of those.
he would be prepared for L-1 and fake hammers, as part of his own play.

I cant see why the reaction to the wagon except that he was on it and knew he didnt want to be.

[Ircher]

We should choose a few canidates for lynching D1 now, so we meet deadline.

I'm thinking Ras, Heat, and Droog. What about the rest of you?

[pisskop]

4 days, 14 hours, 55 minutes

We need to find common ground.

We lynch for scumminess first, and info second. info lynches are compromise lynches and those are bad for town.