Blitz 21 - Hope plus One ―kibou― [End]

[Ranger]

VOTE: KTthecreeper.
Obviously scum, duh.

[Ranger]

Obviously can't list with so few participants, but so far:
{Scatterplot, hiplop}
Sharing a tier.

What said tier

is

, well, you'll just have to wait and see. ;)

[Ranger]

VOTE: talah

[Ranger]

{hiplop, Antihero}
{Scatterplot, Wisdom}
{Trebuchet MS}
{Mad King Ashnard, PhantomCobalt}
{Ankamius}
{Sakura Hana}
{KTthecreeper}
{talah}

[Ranger]

explain this.

No.

[Ranger]

I wouldn't place hiplop so high, but I more or less like your reads.

That's because you're on the top this time. :P

Spoiler: responding to Scatterplot, on my readslist

{hiplop, Antihero} - hiplop because of his casual entrance saying that he was top tier? and for scumhunting on page 1? antihero for his song lyrics entrance? (he does that every game with a different song, it's his thing), for naked voting instead of overexplaining his vote? for his lack of self consciousness?

Close: hiplop's RVS seemed town, and then his casual attitude towards me, along with him seeing many of the same things I did, made him town. Antihero is similar: his reads look good and driven by town, with a casual attitude I think comes from town.

{Scatterplot, Wisdom} - me because i'm town*, wisdom because he's scumhunting and trying to figure people out? for attacking people who townread him instead of accepting the townreads as a gift?

Wisdom would "scumhunt" and "try to figure people out" alignment regardless, and probably also attack people who townread him. However, he's town because of WHO and HOW he's scumhunting on, so yes. You're in that same tier because while I don't agree with all your stances, I understand where they come from and think they're a town thought.

{Trebuchet MS} - for treating the game thread like their hydra pt and for voting talah?

Close enough. I liked their entrance, and they haven't done anything else to make me dislike them.

{Mad King Ashnard, PhantomCobalt} - for needing to see more from both of them?

Pretty much, yeah. Both are players I've previously found synergy with, yet also players who I have not always agreed with, while having us both be town. So I need to figure out if our lack of synergy is because we're simply not synchronized this game, or if they're actually scum.

{Ankamius} -for not doing very much yet?

More or less. Ankamius had the chance to do something. He didn't. That set off red flags.

{Sakura Hana} - trusting wisdom's read there?

No, my reads are my own. I didn't like Sakura Hana's entrance. In hindsight, on rereading it, it's not quite as bad as I recall, meaning I'd probably switch Ankamius and Sakura, but it's still not great.

{KTthecreeper} - for not grokking rvs? for saying something about phantom's meta and then recanting it as rvs? for playing mediator trying to get people to be nice instead of scumhunting? (i'd put "for townreading me too easily"in here but i doubt that's one of your reasons)

All of this and more. KTthecreeper has done many things worthy of voting.

{talah} - for butting in between wisdom and sakura, then sheeping wisdom (like everyone else said)?

If by that, you mean 13/17, then yes. Nothing I've seen from talah has changed my opinion of how bad that was.

[Ranger]

Now I think Expedience is town.

Believe it or not, I agree.

I have no reason to discredit you. You are town, Plot is town, so stop helping scum by tunneling on town. That's all.

Wisdom's name is highly appropriate.

I also think it's silly that we wagoned an Australian who has probably been asleep this whole time to hit the game off. But that's unrelated.

My stance on this shall forever be: it doesn't matter if the player being voted is or isn't around. Scum are scum. We lynch scum. We do that by voting scum. So a player who is scum doesn't get a pass just because they're not posting.

[Ranger]

VOTE: Sakura Hana

Wisdom, you're wrong about Sakura Hana.

This

is scum.
It is not scum bussing.

It is just scum. Being opportunistic.

VOTE: phantomcobalt

While I need more time to be sure (there is the

possibility

of PhantomCobalt being scum), PhantomCobalt looks like the shiny to me.
As in, flashy and distracting, but ultimately not scum.
Sort of like a less-vocal version of Ashnard.

I'd much prefer we focus on talah/Ktthecreeper/Ankamius. Especially given this:

This is disgustingly scummy, too.

[Ranger]

VOTE: trebuchet ms

*sigh*

This is going to be one of

those

games.

Where a lot of TvT fighting happens, people keep getting distracted by all the shiny, going after a target for nonsensical reasons, defending a player who is town, getting scumread for defending that town player by another town player misreading said town player as scum, and the vicious cycle will continue while the scum--who everyone has vague scumreads on but won't pursue--won't be successfully wagoned in spite of my best efforts.

And then I'll die.

And continue ranting about the above from the dead topic.

[Ranger]

FTR activity is literally the worst possible metric anyone can use to try to read me. I have every level of activity you can think of in at least one game as both alignments.

Sure, sure, I won't scumread you for lurking, that's totally fair!

I will, however, scumread you for

active

lurking.

You're doing nothing.
Literally, nothing.
You and talah both, and to some extent KTthecreeper too.

[Ranger]

Anti/Spiffmarq/plot are all town I think. Talah is still scum

And this would be why hiplop is one of my top townreads.

[Ranger]

...Speaking of which...
{hiplop, Antihero, Wisdom}
{Scatterplot}
{Trebuchet MS, Mad King Ashnard, PhantomCobalt}
{Sakura Hana}
{Ankamius, KTthecreeper, talah}

This is everyone, save Ankamius and KTthecreeper, moving up. Not anyone (except Ankamius and KTthecreeper) moving down.

[Ranger]

explain kt? I actually cant remember them even posting

Part of the problem precisely.

KT's posting's blending in without making an impact.

You? Impact. Me? Impact. Antihero? Impact. Wisdom? Impact. Scatterplot? Impact. Trebuchet? Impact. Mad King Ashnard? Impact. Heck, even PhantomCobalt has had an impact, albeit a negative one. And while Sakura Hana is contestable, to me Sakura has had impact.

Ankamius, KTthecreeper, and talah all have not.

[Ranger]

Sorry, my bad, Wisdom.

Expedience is a townread of undefined strength. Maybe he's a stronger townread, maybe he's a weaker townread. For now, stick him in the same tier as the others:
{hiplop, Antihero, Wisdom}
{Scatterplot}
{Trebuchet MS, Mad King Ashnard, PhantomCobalt, Expedience}
{Sakura Hana}
{Ankamius, KTthecreeper, talah}
Until I can more accurately give you something else, you can work with this as where I'm at.

[Ranger]

Since you're not scumreading talah, though, and Ankamius is an outlier for you:
VOTE: KTthecreeper.
Would you be willing to follow me on this?

[Ranger]

Which of my three is wrong, Sakura? Phantom?

Well, I see both Expedience and PhantomCobalt as about the same levels of town. I could be wrong about one of them, but I wouldn't know which.

Ankamius scumclaimed on that page especially with this post, though:

What the fuck, is anyone town this game?

[Ranger]

Naked vote on the biggest wagon why?

talah wasn't a wagon until my vote.

I'm sorry this is truly my fault for trying to juggle so many things at once I just ask you don't treat my slot like this because I've mainly been inactive due to my ear infection I just didn't want to say it because I don't like being treated differently due to things like that

I feel bad for saying this of him after replacing out, but...this is a scum post, too.

[Ranger]

Bleh

Hey, talah's a scumread of mine for good reason!

Why did the Talah wagon break apart, exactly?

That would be your fault, actually. You pushed for the Scatterplot wagon, which replaced it. (Though Antihero and Wisdom have some blame for the brief Sakura Hana/PhantomCobalt wagons that formed, too.)

[Ranger]

If he's scum that invented (or used) an ear infection as a ways to avoid suspicion for his replacement, that's one the lowest of low things akin to strategic use of V/LA.

I have no doubt it's real.

I also think he's quite possibly truthful about it being an issue which deserves being replaced for.

I just found the WAY he replaced out to be indicative of scum, who don't want to let their slot be lynched even though they aren't going to be in it anymore.

[Ranger]

So...pretty sure talah's 700 is town.
Like...really town.
As a result, I like the KTthecreeper wagon

much

more than the talah wagon.

Meanwhile, Ankamius is still obvscum

Yes.
While I don't know who the third is (it's a townread I'm wrong on), Ankamius and Firebringer are both scum.

[Ranger]

KTthecreeper (5) - Ranger, Wisdom, PhantomCobalt, Scatterplot, Trebuchet MS
Scatterplot (4) - Expedience, Mad King Ashnard, Sakura Hana, KTthecreeper

KTthecreeper (5) - Ranger, Wisdom, PhantomCobalt, Scatterplot, Trebuchet MS
talah (5) - hiplop, Mad King Ashnard, Antihero, Sakura Hana, Ankamius

So from these: I'm going to say the Ktthecreeper/Firebringer wagon is all town. hiplop is obvtown, too.
Ankamius is obvscum, as is Ktthecreeper/Firebringer. So with talah as town, that leaves a pool of {Mad King Ashnard, Antihero, Sakura Hana, Expedience} for the third. I'll see if I can look into it for which of them it is. Definitely something to look at.

[Ranger]

Indeed I do. Talah is flailing under pressure. All of his reads are OMGUS trash and most of his defense has consisted of firing back questions and casting doubt at his accusers. On the other hand, the replacing out makes me think most of the frustration was probably genuine. I don't have problems with 15.
Ktthecreeper's posts on page 22 and 23 looked super fake, like he was trying to appear town but had no idea what he was doing (e.g. 546). I don't think he replaced out strategically. 560 and 569 are scummy. He could be just a VI though so let's hear from Firebringer. Appeal to emotion for me.
VOTE: Firebringer
That's L-1.

If there's scum on the wagon, it goes without saying Expedience is it, though I haven't made up my mind, yet. Hard to tell right now.

Though I could do Ank today as well!

Ankamius is actually my strongest scumread right now. I'd want him dead first if given the chance.

[Ranger]

ok....

so i know there's a couple confounding variables with kt (he's 12 and a newb) but the way he posted and his tone is so... stilted and wooden. usually w/ newbtown i expect there to be some element of indignation or paranoia to go along with his omgus, but he just kind of dryly demands "evidence."

i dont rly know how to explain it but if you have at least an iota of intuition and are keeping up w/ the thread, you know what i'm talking about (which is why i got so annoyed w/ talah playing dumb)

This makes me think Antihero is not the third scum, though holding me back from being sure is that he voted elsewhere instead.

[Ranger]

So...{Ankamius, Firebringer} with one of {Sakura Hana, Expedience, Mad King Ashnard}.
Right now I'd guess Expedience.

Sakura Hana could be scum being random, but I'm not sure.
Mad King Ashnard could be scum being stubborn, though I lean against it.
Thus, Expedience. Who actually looked...surprisingly competent (more than I'm used to from him, sorry no offense meant, buddy), and joined the Firebringer wagon at optimal bussing point.

[Ranger]

I'll make a reads list formally after I eat dinner.

[Ranger]

I'm not 100% on whether either KT or Talah were scum, but I'm 100% on thinking that Expedience is scum.

Can I persuade you to follow me?

It would not be my first choice. But...yes. I could vote there.

[Ranger]

VOTE: Expedience.
Reluctantly.

[Ranger]

{hiplop, Antihero, Wisdom}
{Scatterplot, Trebuchet MS}
{Mad King Ashnard, PhantomCobalt, Sakura Hana, OceanWind}
{Expedience}
{Firebringer}
{Ankamius}

[Ranger]

@Ranger - why are you reluctantly switching over to Expedience when Firebringer was the larger wagon and also a stronger scumread for you?

The Firebringer wagon had stalled. The Expedience wagon was growing. My vote absent, they'd be the same size. So I switched to the wagon growing, Expedience, rather than the wagon stalled and losing support, Firebringer.

Of course, if I had my way, the player I'd lynch first would be Ankamius, but I don't trust my ability to gather support there in time.

[Ranger]

Ranger is lurking.

What.

Both of the leading wagons are likely town.

AKA, "both the leading wagons are on my scumbuddies, so I want to dismantle them both".

Ugh I don't fucking know: {Ankamius, Expedience, Firebringer, PhantomCobalt, OceanWind}

Ankamius is scum, period. If Firebringer is scum, PhantomCobalt is town; I can almost 100% guarantee it. (Almost.) Since I think Firebringer is scum (this is

not

townplay from Firebringer), by extent, I think PhantomCobalt is town. That leaves Expedience or OceanWind as candidates for the third.

I do think talah's replace-out is town, and while I agree OceanWind's content is more sketchy, I still think Expedience is the best bet right now since nothing he's said has improved my opinion of him.

Do you think Expedience's 925 comes from scum?

I attach no alignment to it.

[Ranger]

Trebuchet is scum pushing Wisdom!
VOTE: Trebuchet MS

You are scum encouraging TvT! From the sidelines!

VOTE: Firebringer.

[Ranger]

Oh shit Ranger is in this game too
She's probably scum omg

Have you tried actually

isoing me

before calling me a lurker?

I post once or twice a day.
Period.
Blitz, Large, doesn't matter. That's it. This is consistent across all games.

If you call my

content

lurking, then just lol.

Really wish I could vote Ankamius without it being a vanity wagon, but oh well.

my lynch pool, as of a couple hours ago, don't think it's changed so much since then, in order of how much i want the lynch: phantom, expedience, fire, sakura, ocean, ranger. something like that

This is me, getting paranoid of your slot, for both you

and

Ether who have seen my Blitz play as town listing me as a null/scum candidate when by all rights you two should have a much firmer grasp on me.

Especially given your response to OceanWind indicated you got very productive information from your engagement with me. If it was so productive, why this?

...That said, this is also me, not voting you, because in spite of my concerns I'm not an idiot caving into every single paranoid whim I get, unlike some players who shall remain unnamed. I do want an answer to this, though.

[Ranger]

k ocean slot town. Moving on

Amazing how a slot can not once, but

twice

earn towncred for the way they replace out. (Agreed.)

Same

This on the other hand I cannot agree with.

[Ranger]

I thought she played very similarly in Mafiaception as scum to how she plays as town in other games.

Not similarly enough. You don't get targeted by a role that effectively serves as a cop guilty on you N2, and get lynched as a consequence on D4, from being identical to your towngame.

how anyone is even close to scumreading ranger is baffling to me

Yeah, no kiddin'.
I can

get

being null if people want to be all idiotic and make surface-level comparisons to my scumgame, and/or being null if people want to be cautious by not clearing my for resemblance to my towngame when they have too little experience to judge me off of that for sure.

But

scumread

?
Actually read me as SCUM?

I literally do not get more town than I have this game. Especially once we get scumflips on people like Ankamius and Firebringer and it becomes obvious I'm either the largest busser of all time or simply town with good reads.

With Ranger I felt like I clicked with her earlier and could see where she was coming from I just...needed to see more and haven't seen it. she's just...not transparent.

Excuse me?

I've been perfectly transparent. Nothing has changed from earlier. I'm coming from exactly the same place, only with extra information here and there that solidifies most of my opinions.

[Ranger]

Technically we should ask for a claim first, but honestly there's no claim Firebringer could make outside "Mafia Goon" that I would believe.

[Ranger]

VOTE: Ankamius.

[Ranger]

But ugh, Ether's play today sucks

Not for the reason you said, but yes, the townread on Ankamius is extremely questionable.

Sakura's town though.

expedience was the real scum designated cw
just in case anyone hasn't figured that out yet

Or, shocker, actually scum, with us having two scum wagons at the same time!

/whistle
now you "forgot" who firebringer replaced. you're layin' it on thick.

No, I'm pretty sure that's a genuine slip-up.
Sakura Hana is town.
Period.

[Ranger]

am I really so bad at this game?

No, you're just scum.

[Ranger]

it read to me he was sacrificing himself to the potential counterwagon forming on sakura.

And I don't buy that. Not for one minute.
Firebringer self-hammered because he was at L-1, as scum, and there were still people talking about productive things. Him being the lynch was a given. Cutting discussion off is reason enough for the self-hammer.

[Ranger]

scatterplot and ank
scatterplot and ank
scatterplot and ank
say it with me now

Eh, if it's not Ank and Expedience, sure. I'd start chanting that.

For now, though: Ankamius is painfully obvious scum. Lynch him first.
Leave figuring out Scatterplot for tomorrow.
Because literally nobody other than Scatterplot/Expedience could be the third.

Wisdom is town. Antihero is town. You are town. Sakura Hana is town. Mad King Ashnard is town. Gorkington is town. hiplop is town. PhantomCobalt is town. It can only be Ankamius and one of {Scatterplot, Expedience}. You say Scatterplot, I say possible-but-lean-Expedience.

We can have a perfect game if we lynch Ankamius and the cop cops one of the two names above. I guarantee it.

[Ranger]

Ranger I've liked you t he rest of the game but you saying ether's random townread is bad, I have to say this sakura one is no different.

The difference is Sakura Hana is

painfully

obvious town (especially given obvscum Ankamius has been pushing Sakura Hana as scum

the entire game

), whereas Ankamius is painfully obvious scum.

Seriously. iso Sakura Hana and tell me what you see. I see plenty of content, plenty of genuine posting, and a lot of activity. I see such things and think how they're mostly wrong, yes. I do not see them as being scum.

iso Ankamius and tell me what you see. I see virtually no content, and in the sparse times it is there, it's strategically placed to be opportunistic, diverting attention away from Firebringer.

[Ranger]

I mean, I'm not saying that I think Sakura looks like town, but Trebuchet just seems so much worse here and I don't think they can both be scum.

This is scum, explicitly trying to set up a townVtown fight. Worse, chaining mislynches.

[Ranger]

{hiplop, Antihero, Wisdom, PhantomCobalt, Gorkington, Sakura Hana}
{Trebuchet MS, Mad King Ashnard}
{Scatterplot}
{Expedience}
{Ankamius}

This is literally my list right now. The line between first tier and second tier is largely arbitrary.
Dead serious, guys.
You're tVt fighting. Drop it. Lynch the scum. We can get that perfect game. But only if you help me lynch Ankamius.

[Ranger]

Because talah's replace-out was town and OceanWind's replace-out was town and Gorkington has done absolutely nothing to make me think he's scum; quite the opposite.

I suppose strictly speaking maybe that's second-tier town rather than top-tier town. I

did

say the line was fairly arbitrary.

So maybe not that level of town, but still: Gorkington is town. How much I townread him isn't really relevant; I'm still townreading him fairly strongly.

[Ranger]

ranger's reads on these last two pages reminds me of her ridiculously overconfident fakereads in Mafiaception.
:/

Well screw that.

I'm town.
I know who the town are.
If you give me some time (I need to catch up first), I will write a detailed description for why every single town player is town, to the best of my ability, and why Ankamius is confscum and Expedience is my choice for third scum over Scatterplot.
So unless the lynch is Ankamius, don't lynch before I do that. (Not even Expedience, or Scatterplot.)

[Ranger]

ranger, tell me why you think expedience is scum in under three sentences.

-Almost everyone else is town.
-There are multiple hints that Expedience is scum who bussed Firebringer.

i might need to metadive hiplop. [which is also code for: someone give me their opinion on this so i can maybe not have to c:]
cant tell if sticky reads is coming from scum opportunism.
need more data beep boop beep beep.

hiplop was one of my first strong townreads, and the longest-standing for good reason. You saw him in Mafiaception; this is the

exact same

hiplop, whose reads and reasoning have been decent albeit not as perfect as they could be. More details will be provided after I get caught up.

im gonna arbitrarily take sakura/anti/ranger out of my lynchpool for now.
someone talk at me about wisdom.

As with hiplop, the detailed version will come after I'm caught up, but the simple answer is: this is Wisdom at his most town. He's had fine moments, strongly pushing and condemning players who are scum, but has shown paranoia that was not scum-motivated. For instance, while absent from the Firebringer lynch, his reasoning for doubting Firebringer was genuine and prior to that point, no player had pushed Firebringer harder that him, not even me. If he's going for the bus, why back out at the last minute? He wouldn't, thus, he's town.

[Ranger]

can i have the ranger of day 1 back?

This IS the Ranger of D1...only better, more informed.

phantomISO confirms that im probably going to advocate lynching them before lylo.

It would be on policy alone, though, because I guarantee you, this is PhantomCobalt as town. No matter how much you don't like it. (I for one have no problem with him.)

I caught D1 scum with my counterwagon

Yo, Phantom. I also was a major catcher of scum D1. Can you trust me and vote Ankamius?

[Ranger]

And to reemphasize: there

was

scum on the Firebringer lynch, but

only

one. (Well...aside from Firebringer.)
The scum name is either Expedience (my guess) or Scatterplot (less likely).
It can ONLY be one of those two. No other name on there is scum, period.

Off the wagon you get Ankamius as literally the only person who could possibly be scum with any realistic chance. The others off the wagon are just...town.

[Ranger]

Can someone explain the Spiffeh votes to me?

And this continues to be scum deliberately staying on the sidelines of painfully TvT fighting.

[Ranger]

I don't know why RC moved onto Spiffeh but I still feel good about my vote.

This is seriously also not a town response. "There was an extremely questionable move onto the player I'm voting, which I will note to push later, but I won't stop voting anyway."

It's the same lining up mislynches, just done indirectly: Spiffeh (his vote) flips town, then he goes, "Well, RC's vote on Spiffeh was by far the worst as I noted back here, so RC must be the actual scum then."

Scatterplot's posting is still

bad

, yes, but Expedience is notably worse.

[Ranger]

Why is

Antihero

town? Antihero entered the game carefree and casual: he wasn't afraid of anything. He's been one of the most active posters, and while his thoughts haven't always been correct, I have been able to follow along with them the whole time, understanding

exactly

why he's thought what he has. This, all before the KT/Firebringer push. He was one of the first to call KT scum in 104, and while he talks himself out of it, by 620, he is back to pushing it. One of the strongest posts in his favor is 754, where he nails why KT was scum. He votes the slot in 790 and then

never moves his vote again

, continuing the push in 794, 801, 807, 908, 924, 1021, 1041, 1137, 1142, 1159, and 1161. Conclusion: the obvious, he is town.

This took longer than I thought, so I may have to finish later, but I'll be finishing these all tonight guaranteed.

[Ranger]

Before I take a break, though:

Wisdom's 740 sort of gives me pause on a Wisdom/Ankamius/Firebringer scumteam, even though I can see either one as scum independently pretty easily. Wisdom is still my best bet.

Wanted to be more explicit, it's

this

which was bad from Scatterplot in particular.

[Ranger]

Can you do Wisdom next Ranger?

Alphabetically, so no. He's last.
Shouldn't matter, though. It's all coming tonight.

[Ranger]

For

Gorkington

, I'm 95% certain talah's replace-out was a town replace-out. OceanWind's replace-out was also one that looked town, in contrast to KT's which looked like scum. If it helps: in hindsight, this looks a lot like the talah from Blitz 2, where he was town and widely suspected. Many of the points where he was frustrated read as genuine too, like he is town, doesn't know who is town or scum, but still thinks most of the BS headed his way is from town.

OceanWind also indicated Firebringer suspicion in 804. The confidence in Scatterplot being scum and the way he went about presenting it does not match my experience with OceanWind when he was scum (Blitz 2), but

does

fit my experience with him as town (Blitz 14). Maybe that's just me, but it's enough that while he didn't do much to increase towncred, he didn't blow it all, either.

865, while the same lines of Antihero, is still a Firebringer push, too. It becomes a vote in 885, when OceanWind gives up on pushing Scatterplot. This is a particularly town vote, because the Firebringer wagon at the time was:

Firebringer (5) - Ranger, PhantomCobalt, Trebuchet MS, Expedience, Antihero

...Minus me, as I unvoted and switched to the growing Expedience wagon. OceanWind

tried to get me back onto Firebringer

. This vote stayed, and was critical in securing the lynch. It was not a bus vote; it was what reignited the spark in the Firebringer wagon.

Gorkington has done nothing to lose the town credit of his predecessors, thus, remains town. There may not be anything

strongly

saying Gorkington is town from his own posting, but there's absolutely no hint of a scum agenda in what he's saying. He's not acting like scum; he's being active, scumhunting, and generally not afraid to take the spotlight, so the townread holds firm.

[Ranger]

For why

hiplop

is town, it's simply because everything he did early-on resonated with me. He was clearly comfortable and confident in himself. While much of what he said I no longer think is true (sakura/Gorkington scumreads) and he sadly hasn't let go of them, he saw the same suspicious signs as Antihero and I did. 522/528 are some of the reasons Ankamius is scum for instance, but he also made hard stances like defending Trebuchet, defending PhantomCobalt, and similar gems. His emotional outburst in 583 did not read as scum, either. There's similar reactions elsewhere, but on the opposite side, I find it hard to see posts like 701 and the following as scum. I don't think hiplop was right about talah being scum. But hiplop's posting is ridiculously sincere, so I'm firm he

did

.

I understand the reasons for being paranoid: he never pushed Firebringer, even defended him a little bit, so we have no currently-flipped-scum that will prove hiplop town. (An Ankamius scumlynch would help, though!) However, it would be exactly that: paranoia off of some arbitrary criteria. His D2 posting has continued to be fairly strong, and I simply don't think he posts as he has if scum.

[Ranger]

BTW, quick preview ahead:

Spoiler: KT quotes

VOTE: Phantom his activeness doesn't fit his town meta

Post 1 for why Phantom is town.

VOTE: Antihero That isn't very nice.

Awww you got me. I want people to be nice and will kill people who aren't <3

Posts 1 and 2 for why Antihero is town.

UNVOTE: anti
VOTE: Phantom From what I'm use to as town he pops in and out, I'm not use to him being this active and I don't think its town for him.

Post 2 for why Phantom is town.

So I'm currently reading Mad king vs Scatterplot as a TvT. They both seem like town to me but what I don't understand is why they are fighting each other this early in the game over something that happened last game. I understand that Plot did something but this is a new game witch brings new possibilities. So I think instead of us fighting we do something useful and try to read some other people ok?

This is scum trying to play the diplomat (and is one of the main reasons I never relented in my KT/Firebringer scumread), and is post 1 for why Mad King Ashnard and Scatterplot would be town, because scum don't talk from the sidelines like this with a scumbuddy involved.

Okay Mad king's chainsaw defense has convinced me that scatterplot is scum VOTE: Scatterplot

People seem to forget this vote happened, but it is Post 2 for why Scatterplot is town.

I droped my vote on phantom because I think plot is a bigger threat as scum.

If you switch this around to be "I think Plot is a bigger threat when town", then it makes more sense. So, post 3 for why Scatterplot is town.

But that would be classified as scumish behavior because your not giving the person your attacking any room when there should be room

This, and the preceding,

could have

, theoretically, been a scumbuddy complaining about being bussed, but the tone reads more like scum frustrated they're being scumread by town and don't know why. So, post 1 for why Wisdom is town.

Thats how this game should work *sigh* you know what I'm working on my catchup see you when I'm done

Post 4 for why Scatterplot is town.

So, there's some fairly good reasoning why Scatterplot is not my main suspect, some minor evidence on Wisdom and Mad King Ashnard are both town, some decent evidence for why Antihero isn't scum, and some good reasoning for why PhantomCobalt isn't scum.

[Ranger]

Preview #2:

Spoiler: Firebringer quotes

I don't scumhunt.
Oceanwind is scummy though.

Hey, hiplop? Spiffeh? Remember what I said about Katsuki on D4 of Mafiaception? Guess what this reminds me of! (Post 1 for why OceanWind is town.)

*remembers another game Pieguyn hosted with Sakura in it where she bussed both her allies*

Early throwing of shade on Sakura Hana = post 1 for why Sakura Hana is town.

You said you never bus, and I gave you a instance of you doing a buss.
You can go back to saying "I rarely buss" but you can't say "I never buss" cause I just proved you wrong.

Its easier to tear down an argument when you make an absolute statement such as "I never do X" which I just did.

Way to get highly defensive though.
It feels like you can't even read your own posts!

Post 2 why Sakura is town.

I nowhere stated you like to do busses.
I was saying that you have done at least once before that I know off.

Why are you continuously inserting words into my mouth?

Post 3 Sakura town.

Trebuchet is scum pushing Wisdom!
VOTE: Trebuchet MS

This is scum on the sidelines encouraging TvT. So, post 1 of Firebringer's for Trebuchet/Spiffeh and Wisdom.

How are you town?

Post 2, Trebuchet/Spiffeh.

If it isn't Oceanwind....I don't care for you >.>

Post 2 Ocean town.

You tunnel all the time mate.
Hypocritical if you ask me.

Post 4 Sakura.

In short: strong reasons for why Sakura and Trebuchet/Spiffeh are town, with some extras on OceanWind/Gorkington, Wisdom, and Antihero.

[Ranger]

The reason why I don't think

Mad King Ashnard

is scum basically amounts to the way RC treated Firebringer. While consistently treating the slot town, RC was growing increasingly infuriated with them, and when voting Firebringer, there was no attempt at a justification. No, "I was wrong about Firebringer, he's scum". No sudden hop on with no reasoning at all. His reasoning is just about as far away from getting town credit as reasoning can get: "I'm pretty sure Firebringer's flipping town, but I'm going to lynch him anyway". This is not something scum says knowing their scumbuddy is getting lynched. It is, however, exactly in-character with what I've observed of Radiant over multiple town games. He has held similar attitudes in many, many games, such as here with the Wednesday lynch. He has been pursuing his reads strongly and stubbornly, but while I find this can be annoying (I just want him to trust my reads are right and that he's fighting town!), it's perfectly clear he legitimately believes what he is saying.

The willingness to be checked by the cop, and not said out of obligation, also helps. He recognized that with a Firebringer scum flip, a cop investigation on him may be best, and he said this with no prompting; it was

his

idea. And this is an open setup: no godfathers here. Just goons, so he couldn't be baiting an investigation. An investigation on him, which he was willing to have, would devastate the already-in-bad-position scumteam. Furthermore, his stance that scum bussed Firebringer, when he himself was in optimal bussing position, is something I don't see him advocating as scum.

All-in-all, this is a read which requires some trust in me, I admit, but Mad King Ashnard is almost certainly town.

[Ranger]

I think KT is scum.

He has mentioned my town meta 5 times, in d1. Why? You really can't be wrong about meta. You can say "on my home-site Phantom is never this active as town", and that statement can be perfectly valid. I can't change my past games in any way, and he can say shit like that about him. KT is playing it safe so he isn't attacked and shown the spotlight.

And while we're on the topic of avoiding the spotlight, why not add in the fact that KT just joined the now largest wagon?

VOTE: KT

This post, and this post alone, should be enough to tell you PhantomCobalt is not a Firebringer scumbuddy. It stands alone by itself, aside from pushes on Ankamius and also how KTthecreeper pushed him. PhantomCobalt made an excellent,

excellent

point against KT, and continued it in 486 and 563. While he hasn't posted much, I speak from experience: this is how PhantomCobalt usually plays, and the content he is providing is him in top-shape town form.

[Ranger]

You know what, I don't really have the motivation to show why

Sakura Hana

is town. Sakura just is. I suppose I can point you to 775, where a talah/KT/Ankamius scumteam was proposed (not bad), 816, the very town nature of Sakura's replace out...if you don't see it, then I'm sorry. Sakura's just town, so...leave it at that.

[Ranger]

Oh.
Forgot this about Firebringer.

talah/OceanWind/Gorkington
Scatterplot
Antihero
Wisdom
Trebuchet MS/Spiffeh
Sakura Hana
Mad King Ashnard
hiplop
Ranger

This is the players Firebringer mentioned in his iso.
Who do you notice as absent?

Ankamius and Expedience are never

once

mentioned by Firebringer, yet all other players are.

[Ranger]

Alright, so this is harder than I thought it would be.

Trebuchet MS/Spiffeh

is one of my strongest townreads, but explaining

why

they're such a strong townread is hard to do. Pretty much one of the only things they've said favorable is this,

VOTE: Sakura Hana
I'm townreading almost everyone except Ranger (out of necessity), MKA, KT, and her.

...Though they also were the first to call KT's replace-out scum in their 566. Even voting him in 567. I also do not think a scumbuddy says 604 about their scum partner, especially given how many players in the game considered the accusation mean-spirited. 619 furthers that. If you're scum, and you've been on the fence about your scumbuddy, you don't go, "that's a scum replace out" and commit to the scumread. You go, "Hmm, well, we weren't sure about the slot before, so let's give the replacement a chance!" They didn't. You also get things like 998, which no matter how tongue-in-cheek you read it as is still clearly a serious push on the slot. 1037 also pushes Firebringer as scum, too.

Even at a time when others (read: Wisdom, Scatterplot) were backing down from Firebringer, in 1092, they continued pushing him. 1104 too. You also get things like, post-lynch, 1180, where they are clearly feeling vindicated about what happened: correctly calling the KT scum replace as what it was, and being frustrated that others didn't get it.

They do doubt their reads at times, sure, but so do all town players, and their reads are very organic. I hope this is sufficient, but needless to say: don't touch Spiffeh. He is town.

[Ranger]

Wisdom

produced one of the first points against KTthecreeper in 142, where he called KT out on hypocrisy. In 157, KT may have only been the third scumread, but this shows that even early-on, Wisdom wanted KT dead. The read would quickly grow: 372 it becomes more definite, and in 466 singles out KT as being scum as well. 471 is a candidate for best post in the game, honestly, for how early it was and how much I'm pretty sure it was accurate, too. I mean, I'm pretty much sheeping the Wisdom of then with my reads now, even after Wisdom himself has lost sight of them, but it was good then and it's good now. He follows it with a vote in 479. 496 continues it, too, after having said Phantom could be wrong. As much as I want to use his pushes of Ankamius now, technically Ankamius hasn't flipped scum

yet

, so for the time being, I'll just point instead to 555, further pushing KT. 558 is not how you talk to a scumbuddy, either.

There's also how he goes against momentum: Sakura Hana was his first big push. When the wagon began to form, he abandoned it. talah was a major early push of his. Yet he was one of the first to take the firm, hard stance that talah was town. While this one was a mistake, he even backed out of his push on Firebringer: this shows he is not scum going for the town credit, because if he were scum going for the town credit, he'd have backed out of the town pushes but

not

the scum push. That he backed out of the scum push shows that Wisdom doesn't know for sure who is town and who is scum. He's a town player, making guesses, and pursuing what he sees in the moment.

723/740 are other examples of him calling Firebringer scum, which was his vote for the majority of D1 if you recall: one of the hardest, earliest pushers of the slot as scum. He ended up doubting himself, and then being unsure of what to do. If you say you have not had this happen to you: either you don't have enough games under your belt, or you are a liar. When he wasn't sure what to do, he did what is the most natural thing for a town player to do when they have lost sight of the scum: start from where they began.

Heck, I do that all the time! It's my de facto strategy in fact. So when Wisdom pursued Sakura Hana, he was not looking for a Firebringer counterwagon. He was not being opportunistic. He was trying to refocus himself and figure the game out after having imploded his reads.

This is why he's one of my strongest townreads.
I liked it better when he was actually right (his reads were better than mine at the time!), but he's still town even if he's wrong.

[Ranger]

I'm getting tired, but I've done half my job.
I've shown why all of you, save Ankamius and Expedience (side order of Scatterplot who is probably town but not certainly town), are town.
I can do why they are scum tomorrow if you're still being big enough idiots to not sheep me on my Ankamius scumread.

[Ranger]

Short version on Expedience, though: bad entrance in 162, weird fence-sit in 165, voting someone he's treating as town in 167, fake tone in 390 (unless "ooh, look at all this TvT fighting going on! This is almost too easy" is what he meant, in which case...then it was sincere), encouraging TvT fighting in 396 from the sidelines by fence-sitting, 735 is a classical bus-vote, an utter lack of posting (low post count), and minimal analysis whenever posting.

[Ranger]

Wisdom, please, let go of this. You're wrong.

FTFY.

titus is literally playing exactly the same as she was in mafiaception.

Meh. I don't care about Titus at all.

But if you lynch her you're still lynching town because she's in the Sakura slot.
And we'll lose our perfect game.
We could get a perfect, PERFECT game, no town death

at all

, with the right doc protect and a scum lynch.
Thus, why I push for an Ankamius lynch.

[Ranger]

1590 is good posting from Scatterplot.

But if this flips town we're doing things my way tomorrow.
VOTE: Titus

No.

WHEN Titus flips town,

you freakin'

OWE

me

.
Ankamius lynch, then Expedience after that, for ruining the perfect game we COULD have had if you LISTENED TO ME.

[Ranger]

I think that some flips would help me understand them.

Yes some town flips would help prove I was right, but wouldn't you rather have scum dead and a perfect game to go with it?

[Ranger]

Ankamius has been going very blatantly against the grain all game with his reads in a way that takes guts as scum to do, because it's easy to be wrong about your reads if the entire town is being wrong about their reads but when you're doing it in a way that makes you stand out it is harder to do as scum.

This is literally the opposite of how I see it? He's been going with the flow ridiculously strongly. He's taking stances that are easy, convenient, and take no pushing.

Seriously, look at his play. Where does he push a read strongly? Where does he try to strongly dismantle a wagon he thinks is on town? Where does he try to get a wagon going on a player he actually thinks is scum? These factors are entirely absent. He'll make a comment, "I think these players are both town", and then

not do anything about it

. That lack of follow-through shows a lack of sincerity and a lack of care.

He is scum.

[Ranger]

This is all...just...so...PAINFUL to read.
Guys.
GUYS.
You're fighting each other.
"Spiffeh must be scum".
"Ashnard must be scum."
"Wisdom must be scum."
"Titus must be scum."

NONE OF YOU ARE.

The

actual

scum are mostly lurking and staying on the sidelines, letting you fight it out and not actually pushing.
All of you are pushing each other.
All of you are being stubborn idiots.
All of you are being very opinionated about each other, focusing on all the wrong things, trivial little details about one another that aren't important.
Ignoring big obvious things like how Ankamius has done nothing the entire game.
Ignoring big obvious things like how Expedience has

half the posts of anyone else in the game

, a trait I KNOW Expedience is NOT known for, lurking and active lurking.

You are going to look back at this.
And you are going to ask yourself what you were thinking.
Why you let obvscum live to focus on a player who in hindsight was obvtown.

Stop.
Please.

And just lynch Ankamius.

[Ranger]

Scum-scum wagons.

...Were Expedience vs. Firebringer.
Not Firebringer vs. Sakura Hana.

Firebringer tried to take Sakura Hana down.

When he realized he was getting lynched anyway, he self-hammered, framing Sakura Hana.

[Ranger]

You're townreading a fucking playstyle. Stop.

FTFY.

Trebuchet said it himself: Ankamius as town would do something.
This game, he has not.

No push, nothing.

[Ranger]

Ugh which of you mfers is it then

Hmm.

...Were Expedience vs. Firebringer.
Not Firebringer vs. Sakura Hana.

Firebringer tried to take Sakura Hana down.

When he realized he was getting lynched anyway, he self-hammered, framing Sakura Hana.

I wonder.

This is all...just...so...PAINFUL to read.
Guys.
GUYS.
You're fighting each other.
"Spiffeh must be scum".
"Ashnard must be scum."
"Wisdom must be scum."
"Titus must be scum."

NONE OF YOU ARE.

The actual scum are mostly lurking and staying on the sidelines, letting you fight it out and not actually pushing.
All of you are pushing each other.
All of you are being stubborn idiots.
All of you are being very opinionated about each other, focusing on all the wrong things, trivial little details about one another that aren't important.
Ignoring big obvious things like how Ankamius has done nothing the entire game.
Ignoring big obvious things like how Expedience has half the posts of anyone else in the game, a trait I KNOW Expedience is NOT known for, lurking and active lurking.

You are going to look back at this.
And you are going to ask yourself what you were thinking.
Why you let obvscum live to focus on a player who in hindsight was obvtown.

Stop.
Please.

And just lynch Ankamius.

I mean...

Trebuchet said it himself: Ankamius as town would do something.
This game, he has not.

No push, nothing.

Whoever could it be?

VOTE: Ankamius.

[Ranger]

Ashnard was probably killed in order to point to me, given his declaration of me being confscum and such

I definitely agree the modus operandi of the scumteam is framing people.

It's almost as if I said this yesterday about someone else!

Someone who I could have sworn I said was being framed by Firebringer, which you ignored me on! Wonder why.

my gut really doesnt like how that cycle ended.

Hey, then, why not place some attention on some players who made it happen? Like Expedience with that horrendous hammer! Or Ankamius's post-hammer posting?

if expedience is new they might be town.

Gorkington. I've played with Expedience two or three times by now. He's not new. Well, he's not an alt, but he's not new. Just scum.

the hell ank.
i feel like im potentially being biased by the flip, but sakura seems pretty town earlygame.
be more town ank.
because i want to call you pancakes right now.

Well I suppose it's nice to know you agree with me on both fronts! (Ankamius and Sakura Hana.) Shame this wasn't presented yesterday. Right? Real shame!

shit like this isnt helping.

ank.
please.
:/

youre gonna have to give a lot of words to me about why sakura was reading scum to you.

Exactly! You can appeal to him all you like, but simple fact is: Sakura Hana

was

obvtown. And Ankamius was scum yesterday, and D1, and is still scum today.

im really upset that i cant tell if postflip bias is influencing me or if sakura was actually as ridiculously town as im feeling on readback.

The latter.
As you might be able to tell from my posting.

...Bitter? Me? My, whatever gave you THAT idea?

[Ranger]

nope.
you play this trumpet we also lynch you.

We should be lynching him regardless!

[Ranger]

i dont see expedience.

question for you though.
you were saying impact is town earlier.
i disagree.
and im wondering if thats why your reads are as they stand right now.
because expedience being low impact doesnt make him seem scummy to me at all.

Let me put it to you this way.
This is one of my games with Expedience. While his reads were horrendously bad, he was making an impact.
This is my other game with Expedience. While I didn't think positively of him at the time, he was still making an impact. This game was also meaningful because it was a Blitz like this game, and he died at around the same point this game is at: he died N2. This game's on D3. But note the difference. There he has 90 posts; here he has 30.

Expedience is scum because this isn't his town game. He's done nothing with impact. Those games, he did things with impact. He was WRONG, yes. His reads weren't great. But he DID things. Which here his posting is severely lacking.

[Ranger]

i really dont like the timing of this.
i dont know if ank blatantly says that kt is the reason that hes voting phantom if theyre scummates together, but i think him ignoring people prodding him on these last few pages is pretty wonky as heck.

Yep, pretty much.

Ranger why are you still alive if your reads are so spot on?

Easy. Scum tried to kill me N1. It failed. They figured the doctors from N1 would protect the same targets, me included, because they would both think they successfully stopped a nightkill. I didn't want to mention it because lolarrogance, but I'd be lying if I said I haven't been operating under that assumption. Plus, there's the whole: if I die people follow me. If I live, I could change my reads, or people could continue ignoring me.

[Ranger]

Sakura was not obvtown. I've played with Sakura more than probably everyone else here, and she wasn't obvtown at all.

You're saying that to save face. Because frankly? You've lost your pull this game. You've been on the wrong side of TWO lynches now. You're still town in spite of that, especially given the obvious frame job of a kill, but your reads carry little weight given how they are, consistently, proving themselves wrong. You were wrong about Sakura; I was right. You were right for most of the day on Firebringer but then you doubted yourself and became wrong; I stayed true and was right.

You are just tunneling and twisting everything into fitting your narrative.

Pot, Kettle, Black. At least in

my

case, if I'm wrong, I haven't had a flip proving it. If I'm wrong, I haven't needed to go back and re-think and consider, "what went wrong"? If I'm wrong, I have had no reason to think it so, because I've been shown right. The difference between you and I is that you

have

. I'll admit I'm refusing to budge in my positions, and that might be called tunneling, but the above is true; nothing has come up to make me change my stance.

Whereas with you? You had Firebringer flip scum on you and pushed Firebringer's counterwagon the following day. And then, after Sakura's slot flipped town, you're twisting the facts to say Sakura wasn't obvtown, that it couldn't have been YOUR fault, that it could not possibly be you having been wrong, even though you have evidence right in front of your eyes that, yes, you were wrong.

So let me put it this way. You've had two flips to reevaluate. You're not really doing that. I've had no flips to reevaluate, because all the flips so far have matched my reads. What do you really lose by letting me have my way for one freakin' day? If I'm wrong, then I'm forced to reevaluate my reads. By proxy, it would also mean you were right, vindicating your reads. So by sheeping me today, regardless of me being right or wrong, you'll have a much stronger connection with me, and me with you, come D4.

You cannot meta people off two games.

Sure, but my case on Expedience is not based on meta. It's based on impact. He's had none. And I linked to examples of what I mean by a player (him) having impact: being wrong but still making a strong presence in the game. Here he has had none. I could have linked to any number of games with any number of town players and done the same exercise, I simply thought the point would be stronger if it used his own games.

[Ranger]

i might just stop rereading and votepark if all of my effort is going to end up getting continually roadblocked by two people refusing to actually discuss things with me.

What's there to discuss? I've been telling you you're right about Ankamius and wrong about Expedience, told you why I felt you were wrong about Expedience, and am letting you continue reading for why other players (e.g. PhantomCobalt, Spiffeh, Wisdom) are town.

you really think ank is being genuine this game?
literally all of his pushes that ive read to this point are wooden and have no weight behind them.
he never once gets ACTUALLY paranoid about someone.
theres no fire.
its just "x thing is scummy from y player.
vote: y player"
youre really reading that as town?

THIS IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO ARTICULATE! THANK YOU!

[Ranger]

(That was a scream of joy. I've been sarcastic lately so I know tone doesn't always come across.)

[Ranger]

i mean literally this though.
he finds one reason.
and ties his vote to that.
theres no hunting.

This.

like.
its hard to articulate.
but i feel like you and wisdom are so absolutely entrenched in your reads that talking about anything is pointless.
youve both already made up your minds and i feel like im largely wasting my time if im expecting any kind of dynamic interaction with either of you.

Totally get that, actually. I understand what you mean.

If it makes you feel better: I'm actually

not

absolutely set on Expedience. Ankamius is 100% scum, but Expedience is only like 90% in comparison. You actually COULD talk me out of that, but I very strongly feel like Expedience was the bus-vote, for:

1. POE of everyone except him, Ank, and Scatterplot indicating town.
2. Scatterplot's vote-then-unvote looking town for the same reason Wisdom's did: if you're going to bus, why hop off at all?
3. Firebringer having mentioned every other player except for Ankamius and Expedience.

Among others.

[Ranger]

can i have the ranger from day 1 back please?
this one's got way too big of an ego.

You want to have the Ranger from D1 back? Give me something to 'deflate' my "ego". Prove me wrong. Prove Ankamius is town. Heck! I'd settle for having Expedience proven town. Otherwise, my 'ego' is just

me being right

.

And it's very, very hard to be kind when all efforts of herding you bulls have ended in failure. I tried being nice. It got me a Titus mislynch. So now I'm bitter and angry. You want me calm? Give me something to

make

me calm.

Why is that a thing? You think scum don't distance?

In general, sure, scum distance all the time. There's no rule saying they distance every time. I find the lack of Ankamius and Expedience in Firebringer's iso incredibly sketchy. You were wrong about Sakura Hana being Firebringer's attempt to distance, so bluntly I don't trust your replacement push on Scatterplot.

quote nonstiff posts please.

This. ALL of Ankamius's posts have been stiff. What on earth you're smoking to think otherwise, lord only knows.

if ank is scum what do i get postgame? an entire highfive?

You, a pat on the shoulder for a job well done.
My question: What do *I* get? For calling Ankamius scum D1, AND D2?

Ranger is down to null. The attack on me is either town who is just deathtunneling all game or scum who is using it as an excuse to not do anything. It's nearly impossible to tell and the fact that there's very little in her ISO when you remove me from it doesn't help anything.

Uh-huh.

Expedience is leaning town; his vote on Firebringer at the end of the day doesn't look like bussing and he was hesitant to join the Sakura/Titus wagon for a lot of day 2. It's an awkward scum agenda to take when he's this consistently under pressure. The reason he's not straight town is because of the last second Titus vote.

Sure he is.

PhantomCobalt is null-scum. I can't shake that I was onto something with him despite being wrong on Sakura.

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure he is.

Wisdom and Scatterplot are question marks; I have a spotty read accuracy on Wisdom and I've never played with either head of Scatterplot before; neither slot has given me any alignment impressions either way.

If ever there was a more blatant encouraging of TvT, I have seen it not.

Oh, and BTW:

This is all...just...so...PAINFUL to read.
Guys.
GUYS.
You're fighting each other.
"Spiffeh must be scum".

"Ashnard must be scum."

"Scatterplot must be scum."
"Wisdom must be scum."

"Titus must be scum."

"PhantomCobalt must be scum."

NONE OF YOU ARE.

The actual scum are mostly lurking and staying on the sidelines, letting you fight it out and not actually pushing.
All of you are pushing each other.
All of you are being stubborn idiots.
All of you are being very opinionated about each other, focusing on all the wrong things, trivial little details about one another that aren't important.
Ignoring big obvious things like how Ankamius has done nothing the entire game.
Ignoring big obvious things like how Expedience has half the posts of anyone else in the game, a trait I KNOW Expedience is NOT known for, lurking and active lurking.

You are going to look back at this.
And you are going to ask yourself what you were thinking.
Why you let obvscum live to focus on a player who in hindsight was obvtown.

Stop.
Please.

And just lynch Ankamius.

Edited to reflect new D2 (oh, wait, today's D3 because we lynched town D2!) realities.

[Ranger]

like i know i was wrong on that.
im accepting it and trying to figure shit out.

frustrating as fuck that youre still as cocky as ever despite being flat out wrong d2.

This.
So much this.

Wisdom, it's physically

painful

to me knowing you're town. Because I want to reach through my monitor and strangle you. I want to call you scum for just being...so...

bad

. But the sad truth is, you are town. Thus, the urge to throttle you and scream, "WHY ARE YOU SO INTENT ON RUINING OUR LIVES?!?"

VOTE: PhantomCobalt
Prefer this to Scatterplot.

More scum blatantly being opportunistic. He was on the Scatterplot wagon, and as soon as the chance for a PhantomCobalt wagon forms, he leaps on it. It's arguably the second-worst vote of today, maybe even the whole game.

The worst?

VOTE: PhantomCobalt

This, duh.
2073 is not an adequate explanation.

[Ranger]

Have my reads seriously been that bad all game?

No, you've just been scum the entire game.

I think that Ranger is too confident and possible scum, her reads haven't changed hardly at all since early on and she keeps using anything she can to reinforce her hypothesis of Ankiamus and I being scum.

Hmm...

Ankiamus sounds calm and I think his response to being wrong about Sakura is genuine.

These sound awfully familiar. Almost as if another suspicious player has been advocating similar thoughts.

I'm sure it's just coincidence and not at all in any way them sharing an alignment, though. Right?

If anything, Wisdom saying that MKA was killed to frame him is scummy, but I have a townread on Wisdom regardless. Because he might have killed MKA and worried that people would suspect him for it.
Spiffeh sounds less overconfident now than he did on d1. I still don't like his stance on Sakura's replace out, especially after she flipped town. There are scummier players though.

Dat waffle.

already talked about this.

Not really. Quoting a bunch of posts, many of which

were the foundation of my Ankamius scumread in the first place

, and saying (not analyzing, just blindly saying) "these are town" is not what I'd call "talking". You didn't truly give me reasons. Explain to me WHY those are town buttons. Because they just look like scum to me.

[Ranger]

Also, I find it no coincidence that the Scatterplot wagon, AND the PhantomCobalt wagon, formed in response to the Ankamius wagon.

[Ranger]

So who are the scum pushing these supposed counter wagons?

Well Ankamius for a start. :P

ranger
i will work with you to make an expedience wagon happen. can we do that?

If I don't see interest in lynching Ankamius in the following four pages...then yes. Reluctantly. Gimme a bit to catch up.

...Posts like 2123 do tempt me, though.

[Ranger]

There's also actual anger in her posts when other people don't agree with her points.

The conviction point holds true, and you're right there's anger, but you'd be wrong to call the anger town. I happen to be town, who happens to be angry, but anger is not alignment-indicative.

In my experience with her, she has been confident but never this confident.

Exactly. I've been confident before. But I've

never

felt

this

good about my scumreads. Which is...exactly why I've been pushing them so hard.

But, on that note, for what it's worth: Anti, I'm not sure I want to push Expedience yet. He's my best guess for the final scum, but actually a lot of his page 86 posting is...not terrible.
What it kind-of makes me want to do is lynch Ankamius, get the second scum flip, and then look for the player who is the least town, factoring in scum interactions and reviewing pushes. (There's too little information available regarding nightkills.) Not saying he isn't scum, just saying my read on him has weakened.

[Ranger]

who the fuck says this after their partner dies...?

Not him, I can tell you that.

It's the same reason Spiffeh is town, for what Trebuchet said after the lynch.

[Ranger]

so yep after all that i'm in the same place as spiffeh and wis. if it's not etherplot/phantom, i must have fucked up on a townread somewhere but at that point i would just cry b/c everyone else just looks ridiculously town

Scatterplot could be scum

especially

if Expedience isn't, but Phantom's town, guaranteed. I have a better understanding of PhantomCobalt than of almost any other player here. We're hydraing for a reason. I can tell you he's town.

So, yes. A townread of yours is scum.
(Hint: the wrong read is Ankamius.)

[Ranger]

I'd know if you were faking it, believe me.

I don't fake anger.
But I can get angry as scum.

But speaking of anger: it is currently manifesting as tranquility. I'm too angry at the mislynch to show anger.

[Ranger]

Wisdom, you seem to have an awful habit of assuming a player who is lynched is going to lie about being town.

Because that worked

so

well with Titus, right? She was totally lying.

Yeah.

Phantom's town.

[Ranger]

VOTE: wis

/stink eye to ranger

Don't.

This is me.

Not

voting Ankamius.

Because I actually saw something that would make Ankamius town. I'm not sure about it, though.

There's a player I want to vote. That player is not {Ankamius, Expedience, Scatterplot}.
I want to look back on things first to confirm before I vote, there.

[Ranger]

(I also told you so with Phantom being town. I'm fairly sure my townhunting this game has been largely spot-on. There's one player I think I was wrong on, though. Wisdom said that my reasoning on Sakura Hana was weaker than on the others. He was wrong. There was one read that when I typed it, I was wondering if I actually believed it, and...now...I'm not sure I do.)

[Ranger]

Okay, I do admit: I was under the impression people were assuming wrongly I was a cop with an inno on Sakura Hana, too (because, duh, as a cop I would claim a guilty), but I figured by D3 people had figured out I was just a VT? I wasn't exactly going to say, "Look, I'm not the cop, but my reads are this strong anyway", so I figured, no harm done in letting people think I was the cop.

[Ranger]

How did Scatterplot get in here after you started suspecting them yesterday?

Scatterplot could still be scum, who knows, I sure don't.
Expedience could still be scum, who knows, I sure don't.

But during twilight, and over the night, I realized why Ankamius was town. By the time I realized it, obviously, thread locked so I couldn't exactly say, "welp I'm an idiot", but...welp I'm an idiot, Ankamius is town.

[Ranger]

What I mean is: Scatterplot could be scum, but I'm not sure.
Expedience could be scum, but I'm not sure.

If I had to guess: one of them would be scum and the other would not be, but I don't actually know.
Ankamius I'm almost positive is town.

The player I want to vote, though...

VOTE: hiplop.
I'll be explicit: I haven't checked my facts yet. But by memory, something stuck out to me about him, and if it's there, I'll elaborate. (If it's not, I'll unvote.)

[Ranger]

Firebringer (5) - PhantomCobalt, Expedience, Antihero, OceanWind, Ranger
Sakura Hana (5) - Wisdom, hiplop, Ankamius, Firebringer, Trebuchet MS

There we go. This is what I was looking for. We know Trebuchet was town. Ankamius is town. I still think you're town, Wisdom. So...where are the scum? hiplop moved his vote from talah/OceanWind (where it had been the entire game) to join the Sakura Hana wagon, which was the counterwagon to Firebringer.

I'll admit: I thought hiplop was also on the Titus mislynch, though he apparently wasn't, yet once I caught that Ankamius was town, I immediately thought of hiplop's hammer vote on PhantomCobalt, and found myself questioning it...especially since it would mean hiplop has been pushing town the whole game.

[Ranger]

My stance right now basically is:
1498 still applies. Antihero is town. 1508 remains true. Gorkington is town. 1520 is still my stance on Wisdom...doubly-true given our interactions yesterday. I firmly believe that our dialog yesterday was evidence enough of him being town. We were both right, we were both wrong. 1510 and 1511 also contribute for why Antihero, Gorkington, and Wisdom are all town.

But if you read my 1509, compare it to the above: I was lying to myself.

[Ranger]

Also, Ankamius: this is me answering your question to me. You asked, "what do you see of the game state with me as town?" And the answer I came up with was the above: hiplop as scum.

[Ranger]

So Ank is the other scum. Solved?

Unfortunately not.
I'm just going to be blunt. I don't care if we're outing the doctors at this point, since town POE should give us the scum anyway and the doctors can't exactly protect each other.

Ankamius 'crumbed doctor hard in twilight yesterday.
I didn't realize it at the time, but Ankamius also hard-crumbed doctor in D2's twilight, too.

The other doctor I've had a guess as being Scatterplot.

If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong. But I'm pretty sure of this.

Given my townreads (Antihero is town, Gorkington is town, you as town), that would leave Expedience and hiplop.

I do recognize how Expedience has seemed town in the game. But if my assumption about Scatterplot and Ankamius is correct, then the options are: either I'm wrong about a much stronger townread (my read on you three), or it's him.

[Ranger]

So would I.
But if there's no CC, then I'm taking the claim as legitimate.
(I also see no reason to fakeclaim, given it would be suicidal.)

[Ranger]

We protected Antihero night 1, Ranger night 2, Expedience night 3.

Antihero seems a much more realistic kill than hiplop in my opinion.

[Ranger]

I'd vote Expedience right now since I'm

pretty

sure that'd end the game, but, you know.
Formalities, just-in-case talking, discussion, we have the time, etc.

[Ranger]

I've had worse days, so, there's that?

[Ranger]

Even just look at this. From the perspective of town!Ranger as we have seen her so far this game, she's shown that she was 99.999999% convinced that everyone currently alive is town and I'm scum.

Pretty much, yeah.
Antihero was the N1 nightkill. He is therefore confirmed town.
Ankamius is an un-CCed doctor. He is therefore confirmed town.
Wisdom apparently has a cop inno on him, which would make him confirmed town.
And I am

really

certain that Gorkington is town.
So you're the only person it could be.

When I said formality, I meant it. It's a courtesy. It's something to do as a just-in-case. I always expect that I could be wrong. I prepare for if I am wrong. I'm still assuming I'm right.

[Ranger]

sorry things ended up swinging so hard in our favour because of claims.

Eh, I think the game was a town win anyway: Antihero was obviously town, Wisdom was obviously town, you were obviously town, and I think I did a good job being town even before the hiplop push. The only players not so town were the doctors, yes, but Scatterplot was still looking town even without a claim, and to

other

people (even if not me) Ankamius looked town. Both of them were getting hard-defended by town players, and the hiplop townread was stale.

RC - I thought Anti's D2 opening post was a guilty on Sakura, so I pretended I had the guilty to draw the nightkill. Of course that went great...

I knew you were a VT faking cop, but that might have been because I was a VT faking cop.

i'd nth whoever noms her for rising star or paragon or whatever

I already nommed Ranger.

<3
I don't think I'd be a good candidate for rising star; that award seems to imply I'm good as both alignments yet my scum game is nothing remarkable. (I also have five years of off-site experience, so I'm not exactly new. Just new here.) I do feel like I have a shot at paragon, though I still make mistakes, like my Ankamius push.

Sure, there was the wrongly assumed inno on Ank that probably got her to reevaluate, but still.

Nah, I didn't even realize Spiffeh was a cop, nor Spiffeh's results. They had to be pointed out to me. It was me correctly guessing Ankamius's role off of incorrect 'crumbs. Same principle, though. I

did

drop the push off of role-related reasons.

[Ranger]

What was your case on me either way?

Gorkington said it best: your pushes felt very wooden and stiff, giving off the impression of being insincere. There were also many times you took stances that felt "convenient" to take, like when you called Firebringer-Expedience both town. You have to admit, given Firebringer as scum and Expedience as my unflipped (but correct) third scumread, seeing things like that easily can give the impression of you being their scumbuddy.

Interestingly though, town winrate in Blitzes has been really high.

Ranger's been town in most of them.

I lol'd.
Thank you. <3

I love the blitz game format, since it's the format I started playing mafia on.

[Ranger]

there was a micro game me and Spiffeh had with her where me and bork were scum and we obliterated the entire town. IT CAN BE DONE

That was actually my first-completed game on-site for what it's worth, and the game I started second. (The first game I started was the previously-mentioned open. But by the time it was late-D2, when my reads improved there, I had already completed many games I had started later, most notably, Suikoden.)

I do sometimes worry that people are going to burden-of-proficiency me in the future, when it's incredibly random when (if at all) I name the scum. Sometimes, I'll have it on D1, other times, not until lylo. It's happened to me before, on my home site, where the same expectation grew of me to catch scum on D1, which I couldn't always do. That's one reason I love listing: I can give reads but not be expected to explain much. If people follow, they follow; if they don't, they don't.