Open 623 (White Flag) - A Moment in Time (Over)

[Viva La Gloria]

Like, I don't mean for this to be an insult to you or her, but it's pretty clear that you respect her a lot and look up to her.
Calling it creepy was horrible of me and I'd take that back a hundred times. There's plenty of people of both genders who I look up to in Mafia.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with it but I feel that you are slightly pedestalizing her and that you may not have a clear point of view on her.

Also, it's not that she's -wrong- per se, it's the manner in which she's wrong. She's shoving through lynches in a really bad way, I don't feel like her pushes were legitimate, and I feel like she's been consistently choosing the most easily lynched targets at the beginning of each day. I'm extremely sure I'm right here.

Can you at least agree that if she flips scum and I die you'll consider following my lynchpool?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

I will much more strongly look into your lynchpool under those circumstances, yes.

I do respect her as a player. I try to keep a healthy distance. I feel like the only reason she seems even plausible as a lynch is due to the fact that players seem to have an unhealthy fear of her, and so I admit to being at least slightly biased in the other direction due to my awareness of this paranoia. So perhaps this is the bias you perceive, I assure you I do not "put her on a pedestal," if I did, I would not go so far as to try to read her the way I did due to the fact that my belief that she was a better mafia player than me would cause me to always second guess my read. Instead my read on her is relatively solid (relative to the fact that in this game obvtown are few and far between) on her because I think I can see her play and reads her semi-accurately.

[Karnage]

I can't be scum with Titus. Not sure why Cerb is parking his vote on me.

who ARE you scum with then?

[TheCow]

I can't be scum with Titus. Not sure why Cerb is parking his vote on me.

who ARE you scum with then?

u

[pistachi0n]

@pistachion, basically he's not pushing scumreads. He's hanging back too much.

But is that different than how he acts in other games? I'm under the impression that being evasive is sort of his thing.

[Titus]

@pistachion, basically he's not pushing scumreads. He's hanging back too much.

But is that different than how he acts in other games? I'm under the impression that being evasive is sort of his thing.

No. In Steven's Universe, he'd engage the thread much more. He fully can place votes. Here, he's giving the impression he doesn't care. He wasn't really voting cow for being scummy, but just for apathy. Not cool. If someone's wrong twice, there is a natural inclination to not want this person leading regardless of their alignment. The apathy cow and Cerb face is .

Right now, the fact you're bothering to get involved in the game actually suggests I could be wrong about you. I am starting to lean more Cerb cow viva/Cakez. Please engage more if you're town, more than just me.

[Cerberus v666]

pistachion, Titus is right. I'm a lot of do nothing/hedging in the early stages of the game, and then as soon as I have something to grasp that makes sense to me and seems improbable to be wrong, I hold onto it.

The mistake Titus is making, though, is that she's used to playing with me in games with more moving parts, so I found something to grasp earlier, through the results I had from my own roles, to the claims people made, the kills that occurred, etc. Simply more data available in a game with more moving parts, meant I was useful earlier.

Not so much here. Titus is town. TheCow is scum. Those are the only reads I'm absolutely certain of, and I'm not doing much as a result.

AI: See the second sentence of this post. Want to know what makes absolute sense to me and I'm not letting go of and fuck all of you who don't see what I see? Titus as town. Actually, let's step this back a bit. You say I'm either buddying titus, or I am scum with her. 1) Do you seriously think I would hard defend the fuck out of her and keep screaming that she's town while she's blatantly ramming lynches on scum through? That's a path that leads *directly* to her getting lynched, then me getting lynched, a loss for our team. There is basically no chance that we're scum together. If I'm scum buddying her, if you have even the tiniest bit of experience with her...you should realize that anyone who KNOWS Titus knows buddying her as scum is incredibly dumb as well, because HER OWN SCUM PLAY is largely based upon letting 'townbeards' win the game for her by buddying up with the people who are wrong and getting a faux town block going off in the wrong directions.

She's quite aware of such possibilities, I'm quite aware of her awareness of these things, and guess what? The fact that I've been defending her and calling her town with such certainty IS in fact making her suspicious of me! *gasp* what a surprise, town fucking titus is reacting like town fucking titus does, and like cerb fucking knows she would.

Up to you to decide if I'd deliberately make a play along those lines just to throw this argument in your face as a reason why your assumptions don't make sense, or if I'm actually town who doesn't give a fuck about making titus suspicious of me, I'm just not letting her go down when it's obvious to me that everything she's doing is coming from a town place.

Viva: I kinda hate the fact that your entire reads list(well, okay, not the entirety of it, but definitely sprinkled throughout) shows a massive reliance on preflip associatives with Titus. Even with people who you say you have reads on independent of your Titus read, you still make a point of saying how Titus relates to your read on them. You're 'probtown' reading the cow because "everyone I'm not townreading is all over them", and the people you're not town reading are all based on the fucking titus preflip associative!!!

Frankly, your entire reads list is shit, except for those parts where you somehow manage to independently evaluate play, without making assumptions about alignment WHICH YOU HAVE NO WAY OF KNOWING FOR CERTAIN. So, basically, your AI read makes sense, and does not appear colored by your Titus read. Everything else...it's all bullshit. Sircakez read is ALMOST not bullshit, but then you bring in the whole "agreed to lynch Titus then fought against it thing"...

Anyways, the point is, you are certainly compromised in your ability to honestly evaluate this game because of your tunnel on Titus, and nobody should forget that.

EE: I'm interested in why there's an apparent connection between cakez and myself now? Also curious what happened to the viva or cakez thought you had earlier in the day, I just looked over your ISO and don't see any actual explanation for the transition in your thoughts there.


TheCow: Can you please give some real thoughts on the game state?

Karnage: So you feel we're looking at a TheCow/Viva/Cakez scum team right now? Can you explain why there's a contradiction between your 1765 where you remind EE that tunneling isn't alignment indicative in and of itself, and your 1866, where you say Viva is likely scum for tunneling Titus?

SirCakez, I'll get to you later, already spent too much work time on this right now, and you actually have a good bit of things to read through given all the positions on your slot.

Titus: What do you think about the Karnage 1765 vs 1866 I mentioned? Or the EE phantom connections with no reasons given?

[Cerberus v666]

Also, Titus, you're forgetting that in SU, I had Drixx to fall back on, and even though he says he's shit in the early game, he also starts to draw firmer conclusions than me much earlier in the game, and makes pushes on those suspicions etc. I don't know if you actually read our entire slack log dump in that game, but a lot of what I did in the way of interactions on specific slots and pushing people came from Drixx or myself noting things, and Drixx pushing me to press someone about them.

[Titus]

1931 is what I was waiting on.

I will let Karnage answer your question before replying. I would like to see his defense.

[Viva La Gloria]

AI: See the second sentence of this post. Want to know what makes absolute sense to me and I'm not letting go of and fuck all of you who don't see what I see? Titus as town. Actually, let's step this back a bit. You say I'm either buddying titus, or I am scum with her. 1) Do you seriously think I would hard defend the fuck out of her and keep screaming that she's town while she's blatantly ramming lynches on scum through? That's a path that leads *directly* to her getting lynched, then me getting lynched, a loss for our team. There is basically no chance that we're scum together. If I'm scum buddying her, if you have even the tiniest bit of experience with her...you should realize that anyone who KNOWS Titus knows buddying her as scum is incredibly dumb as well, because HER OWN SCUM PLAY is largely based upon letting 'townbeards' win the game for her by buddying up with the people who are wrong and getting a faux town block going off in the wrong directions.

And how the fuck is that not this game?
Like you literally exactly described her play in this game. You and EE (assuming that you're town) making excuses and pushing her mislynches while she hides in the back.
Cerb if you're town you're being incredibly dense.

[Cerberus v666]

AI: See the second sentence of this post. Want to know what makes absolute sense to me and I'm not letting go of and fuck all of you who don't see what I see? Titus as town. Actually, let's step this back a bit. You say I'm either buddying titus, or I am scum with her. 1) Do you seriously think I would hard defend the fuck out of her and keep screaming that she's town while she's blatantly ramming lynches on scum through? That's a path that leads *directly* to her getting lynched, then me getting lynched, a loss for our team. There is basically no chance that we're scum together. If I'm scum buddying her, if you have even the tiniest bit of experience with her...you should realize that anyone who KNOWS Titus knows buddying her as scum is incredibly dumb as well, because HER OWN SCUM PLAY is largely based upon letting 'townbeards' win the game for her by buddying up with the people who are wrong and getting a faux town block going off in the wrong directions.

And how the fuck is that not this game?
Like you literally exactly described her play in this game. You and EE (assuming that you're town) making excuses and pushing her mislynches while she hides in the back.
Cerb if you're town you're being incredibly dense.

Valid point, and maybe I am being incredibly dense, but seriously...as I pointed out in my 1042, her 1007 had an extremely high chance of resulting in her death. I can not imagine scum!Titus taking that chance,when she could have deflected somewhere else instead of confronting you. :-/

And the rest of her play is has been all about solving the game!

Also...umm, wanna address my allegation that your are incredibly compromised and unable to properly evaluate any slots in the game because of your Titus tunnel? At least tell me you're considering that I might be right about that?

[Viva La Gloria]

AI: See the second sentence of this post. Want to know what makes absolute sense to me and I'm not letting go of and fuck all of you who don't see what I see? Titus as town. Actually, let's step this back a bit. You say I'm either buddying titus, or I am scum with her. 1) Do you seriously think I would hard defend the fuck out of her and keep screaming that she's town while she's blatantly ramming lynches on scum through? That's a path that leads *directly* to her getting lynched, then me getting lynched, a loss for our team. There is basically no chance that we're scum together. If I'm scum buddying her, if you have even the tiniest bit of experience with her...you should realize that anyone who KNOWS Titus knows buddying her as scum is incredibly dumb as well, because HER OWN SCUM PLAY is largely based upon letting 'townbeards' win the game for her by buddying up with the people who are wrong and getting a faux town block going off in the wrong directions.

And how the fuck is that not this game?
Like you literally exactly described her play in this game. You and EE (assuming that you're town) making excuses and pushing her mislynches while she hides in the back.
Cerb if you're town you're being incredibly dense.

Valid point, and maybe I am being incredibly dense, but seriously...as I pointed out in my 1042, her 1007 had an extremely high chance of resulting in her death. I can not imagine scum!Titus taking that chance,when she could have deflected somewhere else instead of confronting you. :-/

And the rest of her play is has been all about solving the game!

Also...umm, wanna address my allegation that your are incredibly compromised and unable to properly evaluate any slots in the game because of your Titus tunnel? At least tell me you're considering that I might be right about that?

I ignored your allegations because they're stupid.
she's scum. either vote her or quit wasting my time.
and no, she made that post because she knew you'd react in that way. People assume suicidally anti-town things have to be town so they get townread for them.
I don't buy that logic for a minute, whatsoever, particularly coming from someone who has been hyped by several players as a good scum player.

Also, what's up with that passivity? Do you wanna, umm, etc? You're acting like I'm about to rip your head off or something.
I'm sorry if I've been nasty this game but Titus needs to get lynched.
You want to win this game, just vote her.

[Cerberus v666]

AI: See the second sentence of this post. Want to know what makes absolute sense to me and I'm not letting go of and fuck all of you who don't see what I see? Titus as town. Actually, let's step this back a bit. You say I'm either buddying titus, or I am scum with her. 1) Do you seriously think I would hard defend the fuck out of her and keep screaming that she's town while she's blatantly ramming lynches on scum through? That's a path that leads *directly* to her getting lynched, then me getting lynched, a loss for our team. There is basically no chance that we're scum together. If I'm scum buddying her, if you have even the tiniest bit of experience with her...you should realize that anyone who KNOWS Titus knows buddying her as scum is incredibly dumb as well, because HER OWN SCUM PLAY is largely based upon letting 'townbeards' win the game for her by buddying up with the people who are wrong and getting a faux town block going off in the wrong directions.

And how the fuck is that not this game?
Like you literally exactly described her play in this game. You and EE (assuming that you're town) making excuses and pushing her mislynches while she hides in the back.
Cerb if you're town you're being incredibly dense.

Valid point, and maybe I am being incredibly dense, but seriously...as I pointed out in my 1042, her 1007 had an extremely high chance of resulting in her death. I can not imagine scum!Titus taking that chance,when she could have deflected somewhere else instead of confronting you. :-/

And the rest of her play is has been all about solving the game!

Also...umm, wanna address my allegation that your are incredibly compromised and unable to properly evaluate any slots in the game because of your Titus tunnel? At least tell me you're considering that I might be right about that?

I ignored your allegations because they're stupid.
she's scum. either vote her or quit wasting my time.
and no, she made that post because she knew you'd react in that way. People assume suicidally anti-town things have to be town so they get townread for them.
I don't buy that logic for a minute, whatsoever, particularly coming from someone who has been hyped by several players as a good scum player.

Also, what's up with that passivity? Do you wanna, umm, etc? You're acting like I'm about to rip your head off or something.
I'm sorry if I've been nasty this game but Titus needs to get lynched.
You want to win this game, just vote her.

Viva, there is a REASON why suicidal plays are seen as unlikely to be made by scum.

Because they're dumb, and they, by definition, tend to result in the death of the player making them. Unless Titus has certain knowledge of the likely reactions of this particular group of players, or at least of those members of this group of players who weren't already voting her, AS A WHOLE, NOT JUST ME, then the line doesn't make sense. It's a terrible play.

Also, sorry if my verbiage isn't as forceful as you'd like. I just don't see a reason to use imperious phrasing at this time.

-Cerb

[SirCakez]

If Titus flips town, Karnage or Cow goes tomorrow basically. Everything would point towards those two. Cerberus maybe for doing nothing with his vote all game but more confident in the former two. And Viva would have to rewrite all his reads here obviously.
If she flips scum then Cow is probably town and we go Karnage or Cerb.

So basically I think we should be lynching Karnage either way tomorrow. Maybe Cerberus if Titus flips scum and he still keeps avoiding her wagon.

[Viva La Gloria]

Viva, there is a REASON why suicidal plays are seen as unlikely to be made by scum.

Because they're dumb, and they, by definition, tend to result in the death of the player making them. Unless Titus has certain knowledge of the likely reactions of this particular group of players, or at least of those members of this group of players who weren't already voting her, AS A WHOLE, NOT JUST ME, then the line doesn't make sense. It's a terrible play.

Also, sorry if my verbiage isn't as forceful as you'd like. I just don't see a reason to use imperious phrasing at this time.

-Cerb

Fuck no. Not when half the game is already firmly in her camp and hanging onto every word she says.

Why's this day still going even? Just hammer.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Titus, do you agree with Cerberus that your play is "suicidal"?

[Extrapolated Eagle]

Cerberus, have you placed your vote?

[Cerberus v666]

Cerberus, have you placed your vote?

I currently am, and have been, voting TheCow.

[Cerberus v666]

He even went to the trouble of acting indignant that I did so, as though I had not previously expressed doubts about his alignment and indicated that his continued poor play had moved me from doubting him to being quite firm in my belief that he is scum.

[Cerberus v666]

Titus, do you agree with Cerberus that your play is "suicidal"?

Note, her play as a whole isn't suicidal. Her play in 1007 was, and she should have expected to hang for it.

[Viva La Gloria]

You people should learn how to bus.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Titus, do you agree with Cerberus that your play is "suicidal"?

Note, her play as a whole isn't suicidal. Her play in 1007 was, and she should have expected to hang for it.

So, her play as a whole isn't "suicidal", in which case your entire argument is rendered moot.

[AlwaysInnocent]

Stating intent to hammer.

[Viva La Gloria]

Stating intent to hammer.

Thank you.

Posting this again. Please don't say stupid shit like Cow was getting bussed tomorrow.

Sorry about the rudeness as well EE. It wasn't called for.
I'm just super frustrated about how hard this Titus lynch has been to get.
Here's a proper readslist at any rate, if only to help you guys out if I get night killed.

Town:

AlwaysInnocent

: Always felt really on the same page with him, a lot of shared reads, I've felt that he never took any of the townreads on him or took any of his townreads for granted, and that paranoia seems very town. He's also stuck his neck out defending town in very non-white knighty ways that could have easily come back to bite him and that I don't think he would have done as scum. Very much went against the crowd and in town's interests when town was doing stupid crap. I'm legit surprised neither he nor I were NKed by this point.

ExtrapolatedEagle

: I've wavered on this but I don't think that EE would defend his partner this hard without slipping up and looking a ton more scummy than he is. The only thing I really want to hold against him is his incessant Titus WKing but he's town here regardless of the Titus flip. And if he really is scum with Titus we'll figure it out by lynching their other partner; I don't want to touch him this game. Also the arguing that we've had has felt really since from his PoV which makes me feel that he genuinely feels wronged in a way that I don't think that he would as scum.

Probtown:

The_Cow

: This is an iffy read but I feel like scum have not been bussing this game and basically everyone that I'm not townreading is all over him. Again, even if scum are trying to pull off an elaborate bus here (or even are trying to get Titus lynched to clear Cow), this isn't a slot I'd want to be lynching in for the rest of the game. Plus, there's just way too many people scumreading him and most of the people are scumreading him for reasons that are NAI from my meta dive.

Null:

Pistachi0n

: Like she's been objectively really just bad (not like scummy bad but just ugh.) but she's also been one of the people consistently voting scum and VCA paints her really well.
I'm inclined to just pencil her in as weak town because I like most of her positions overall I just think she should like put more effort. Why play this game if you're going to basically lurk and not push any of your reads, idk. but probably town.

Maybe scum-

Cerberus

: I really hated how on D1 he started pointing out the flaws in Titus's push, part of what led me on that path, but then when I mentioned it he completely 180d and denied having anything to do with it. I also get the feeling that a lot of the questions that he's been asking me have been entirely pointless; like I haven't answered the majority of what he's asked me and nothing. He also does a lot of just declaring things without really following up on it and I have never gotten the impression that he's actually trying to solve the game. Cow push sucks as well. If 1 of my 3 scumreads is actually town this is probably the fourth.

Scum-

Karnage

: A lot of this is based off of associatives with the Titus slot and Titus's scumflip makes this an instant lynch tomorrow but I could make a strong case independently even; there's the day one shit where they had like this mini distancing session and Titus randomly came out with a weird ass townread. I really hated the 'oh let's see how far you are willing to bus him Cakez' thing from yesterday; that looks like scum distancing with an out after Firebringer flips town. His reads are weak and feel like they're just following crowd mentality, both Karnage and Yonom have been part of the scum voting block (and her positions have been just as weak!) and have possibly the worst substantiation. Like, let's help Cakez bus? what the fuck. no.

Sircakez

: Slimy as fuck. Been on every town wagon, and SS's wagon that took off way too fast could easily have gained support as a counter wagon for Scum!Cakez. I really don't like how he agreed to lynch Titus and now is like digging for every excuse to not vote Titus and making other people take responsibility for his votes. His 'oh my reads are bad so I sheep' claim doesn't really mesh with the way he's playing; he's pushing for literally every wagon that's not Titus right now and I'm pretty sure he's actually just hoping that one of them takes off. Don't think he's town here. If he's town, he deserves like an award for most pro-scum play.

Confirmed scum-

Titus

: I feel like I've said enough here? She's jumping from easy scumread to easy scumread (cow now), she's been strongarming lynches while refusing to give reasons and then making really crappy analogies for why she shouldn't be held responsible for unexplained lynches that hit town. Even after the disaster SS lynch (which I tried several times to get her to substantiate on and she refused) she did the same fucking shit with Firebringer; barely explained wagon on an easily lynched player with the same crappy votes on it, hits town, doesn't really say anything about it at all. Her attempt now to try to smooth things over with me after she has refused to talk with me at all this entire game just feels so dirty and scummy; I wouldn't expect town to wait until she's absolutely forced to engage with me to do so. Particularly considering that I was generally townread and she had tried to vote me a few times; that's something that I think that Town!Titus would have tried to get things going on but she never did. Always felt like she was content just being lazy and going for easy wagons (Cow again!) and she's been just pushing wagons through in a really dirty way. Like, she is trying today to get a Cow speedlynch going under the pretensees that it's to 'clarify that there's scum in her townblock', like what the fuck? Like, no. She has to go today.

In terms of the likely teams I've been looking at, in sets of 2:


Extremely likely
Titus/Sircakez (Poorly supported townread on Sircakez from Titus, Sircakez saying he's ok to lynch her but pushing every other wagon)
Sircakez/Karnage (Let's help Cakez bus from Karnage, pushing for a Karnage lynch without actually pushing for it from Cakez)
Karnage/Titus (All that crap from Yonom, poorly clarified position from Karnage, extremely stale and unexplained townread from Titus)

for my Karnage/Sircakez/Titus working theory.

The one thing I don't like about putting Karnage and Sircakez together is that Sircakez has been pushing for a Karnage lynch but I think that it's a distancing attempt and that scum were expecting to have to bus one of their own if the Cow lynch didn't go through. I also get the impression that Sircakez isn't *actually* trying to get the wagon shifted, he's just trying to make a show of it, whereas with other things such as Cow I feel like he was genuinely trying to make something happen.

Other possibilities include:
Cerb/Titus (Associatives are horrible)
Pist/Sircakez (The only person Sircakez hasn't tried to pin the lynch on that's scummy is Pist. All he's done is call her null and ignore her)
Cow/Pist (Long shot but if Titus was town this would sort of make sense, with Pist pushing Titus as a chainsaw)
EE/Titus (long shot, and still best not to lynch EE. If EE were part of the scumteam with someone else who wasn't already a likely lynch contender I'm positive that they would have come into today or yesterday with a speedbus on Titus.)
Cerb/Pist (Maybe? they don't really have positions on each other)

Anyway, that's where I'm at. Sorry if you felt that I was tunneling but I've been paying attention to everyone, believe me; I just feel like we have to lynch Titus or she might never get lynched.

[Cerberus v666]

Also, EE, are you going to respond to my question in my wall post above?

Viva: You realize I don't even vote for people unless I'm quite confident they're scum? Barring a looming deadline, I will NOT vote for a townread.

AI: No, you're missing the point! It's that *that* particular play WOULD NOT be made by scum!Titus. Period. It would not happen, not without her having extensive knowledge of the play of every player in the game.

pedit: in the unlikely event that I die, do not let the people I asked questions of get away with not answering me.