Open 620: Duck Duck Goose Game Over, Mafia Victory

[Mathilda]

Yay!

VOTE: Scorpious because he's the only name I recognise.

[Mathilda]

I tell a lie, I also recognise Lowell but I can't talk about that.

[Mathilda]

I knew that was coming

[Mathilda]

Oh yeah I'm not gonna bother signing posts because I'll just forget at the scummiest moment

Can you explain what you meant by this? Please define what you mean by "scummiest moment". I just glossed over it because I did not understand it. And can everyone else who thinks that it is scummy explain why?

[Mathilda]

I'm getting the sense that Newbie might not actually in fact be ... a newbie.

Which then suggests someone actually quite experienced at this game because they appreciate the value of being under estimated.

Why is this important? Because I like how she is scum hunting. But if she is experienced then could be this be a scum tactic to play as close to town as possible? Well there's absolutely nothing to suggest that this is the case for the moment so I am going to put her on my town pile for now.

[Mathilda]

I'm getting the sense that Newbie might not actually in fact be ... a newbie.

Which then suggests someone actually quite experienced at this game because they appreciate the value of being under estimated.

Why is this important? Because I like how she is scum hunting. But if she is experienced then could be this be a scum tactic to play as close to town as possible? Well there's absolutely nothing to suggest that this is the case for the moment so I am going to put her on my town pile for now.

Wait did you think newbie was a newbie because their name was newbie?

Generally you look at experience based on how many posts they have etc. not their username. I'm trying to understand why this post was made- your point seems to be
that you are townreading Newbie only if she is a new player, if not it is a scumread? Well guess what I don't think Newbie is actually new to this game. This feels like you think Newbie might get wagoned here, so it lets you say "Oh Newbie isn't a new player, I think her early game was scummy" and sneak on the wagon without having to actually worry about going after Newbie.

Also I'm not sure that reason is a good reason to scumread someone. Basically you are scumreading a player for seeming town. I would say that opens a can of WIFOM, but honestly that strategy just doesn't work. A good player might be able to look towny as scum, but they would also probably be able to look towny as town.

@JF3, that was just me trying to sort you and Newbie and failing, if you don't see any real point in answering the questions you don't have to.

Now this is a very interesting response. It's deliberately misrepresenting what I said. I'll accept that you might not quite get dry humour, especially over the medium of electronic text, but I did conclude by saying

"Well there's absolutely nothing to suggest that this is the case for the moment so I am going to put her on my town pile for now."

That was my very last sentence so you don't have a plausible excuse for thinking that I was reading newbie as scum. Of course I know that "newbie" is a name and not a status bestowed upon a player by the almighty mods of Mafia. But my point remains that the player

chose

to call themselves "newbie". She chose it for a reason.

What your posts suggests to me is that you are deliberately looking for means to cast suspicion on a player rather than looking for slips. The former is a sign of someone wanting to cause a mislynch, the latter is a sign of someone trying to discover who is scum.

VOTE: Something Pip

[Mathilda]

Sorry for needing to be prodded. I am watching this game. Wasn't sure what to post because there's so little content, but I suppose that's probably part of the reason why there is so little content. I'm going to re-read the entire thread again and be more active.

I've never played a game with a hydra before. The concept is new to me. I'm thinking through the mechanics of it. It's like an entire faction in one. If one member of the scum team of three slots was a hydra then there would be 6 scum players. That sounds somewhat mental.

So far the only person who I know for sure is town is Frozen Angel for #107. I hadn't read the possible set-ups.

[Mathilda]

My mistake, there is only one possible set up.

[Mathilda]

All heads have the same wincon, so if one head is acting scummy, then the others explaining will not take away that scumminess

In theory, but what about replacements? Quite often someone with a large lynch wagon will ask to be replaced, and the replacement comes in looking all towny and doing all the necessary scum hunting required of them until the lynch wagon moves onto someone else.

Sometimes the slot is scum, sometimes it's town, but it's always the same alignment and people often forget how they originally perceived a slot. Even without a replacement, the same player can quickly get to L-1 at the beginning of the day and end up completely trusted by the end of the game without any mod confirmation.

[Mathilda]

That did look pretty scummy (for page 1)
VOTE: RadiantalyFarrar3

This is weak.

That vote looks very OMGUS.
VOTE: RF3

I disagree, conc looks bad to me as well.

People should sheep my vote, it's quite a good vote.

I can't see scum making a post like this. Even if it was just a joke, I'd expect a bit more self consciousness. I also understand how concvex could've found what BE pointed out about RF3 as scummy.

I can totally see scum making a post like that at any time in the game.

VOTE: concvex

These kind of posts really catch my eye. Very short sentences passing judgement on someone with no explanation as to how they arrived at that conclusion. There's very little self doubt or wondering whether they are correct or not. Remember scum know the alignment of everyone, town are in the dark. Scum don't care who they mislynch lynch, town are looking for very specific tells.

Why is concvex's vote on RF3 weak? Why do you disagree with Newbie's vote on RF3 being OMGUSsy? Is it that OMGUSing is not a scum tell or that you don't think it was OMGUS? Why not try to sway our opinions? And if scum can make a post like conc's at any time then can town make posts like that as well? Or do you find it a specifically scummy post? If so why?


Now compare it to the following response:

I can't see it happening on the first page of the first day phase, a time when scum tend to be extra cautious.

This looks more townie. It looks like someone is trying to explain their reasoning. It gives a chance for other town to correct their assumptions. For example, I can come along and argue that if scum can let their guard down at any point then it would be the first day. Because if they do make a post that looks in any way scummy then it can eventually be forgotten as more information becomes available. This becomes harder to do the longer the game plays on. Yes scum try to avoid attention, but eventually they will receive attention anyway if they don't participate.

This exchange makes me lean scum on Sharkey.

[Mathilda]

Pip's response in #62 meets with my approval. Looks like they are trying to figure out what's going on.

[Mathilda]

Also I am now thinking RF3 is town (genuine frustration). Newbie and concvex look like possible scumbuddies to me. Newbie jumping into the defence of concvex really weakly is scummy af. And so is concvex' jump on to the RF wagon.

Do scum actually come to the defence of each other? In my experience they tend to keep their distance. A bigger tell I find is whether they never interact with each other at all over the course of the entire game and just read each other as null. Or they accuse each other with things that do not stand up to scrutiny to give the appearance of scum hunting.

[Mathilda]

VOTE: Something Pip

I've been reading the thread again, this time with far more attention. I was only glossing over it the first time because I was busy over the Christmas period. The second time I've been reading Pip as town so I'm going to unvote him.

UNVOTE: Something Pip

[Mathilda]

VOTE: TheDominator

Fluff poster doing the minimum necessary to register a presence but does not explain any of his thoughts or votes. Anti-town at best.

Why is he voting for Something Pip in #url=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p7526317]#132[/url]?

It could be that he's not paying much attention to the game, but some pressure might give us extra information that we need to determine whether this is the case or not.

[Mathilda]

Sorry post ref should have been #132

[Mathilda]

VOTE: TheDominator

Fluff poster doing the minimum necessary to register a presence but does not explain any of his thoughts or votes. Anti-town at best.

Why is he voting for Something Pip in #132?

It could be that he's not paying much attention to the game, but some pressure might give us extra information that we need to determine whether this is the case or not.

In my experience pressure works best when you state it's pressure outright. Really lends gravity to the vote. Makes it seem serious.

I may be somewhat mistaken, but I'm picking up ... no, wondering if I am perhaps sensing a possible hint of sarcasm from you? Maybe?

Being serious though, it still adds pressure because if he doesn't answer to my satisfaction then I'll just keep the vote on him. And I'll keep pushing for more information. Stating what we all know to be true rather than pretending that we all aren't fully aware of how this game works doesn't change the reality of the situation.

[Mathilda]

Two wagons and you're RVSing with nothing else to say?

scummy

I'm no expert but I believe that Johnny made those last 3 posts.

scummy

Oh yeah I'm not gonna bother signing posts because I'll just forget at the scummiest moment

yuck

Hoo boy. This game moves, huh?

yuck

scummy

yuck

[Mathilda]

Oh yeah I'm not gonna bother signing posts because I'll just forget at the scummiest moment

Can you explain what you meant by this? Please define what you mean by "scummiest moment". I just glossed over it because I did not understand it. And can everyone else who thinks that it is scummy explain why?

this post is werid

mathilda puts pressure on rf3 when everyone else is
but doesnt vote
kind of jumping on the wagon without committing

I wasn't putting pressure on RF3, merely asking for an explanation. I am trying to generate information.

And why should I vote for RF3? I don't see any reason to yet.

also

mathilda never responds
rf3 gives a good reply in [url=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p7518706]#40[/url
did mathilda really care about the ansewr?

Why should I respond if I am satisfied with the response?

This all looks contrived by you to find distract people from the lynch wagon on your slot. This in itself makes me read you as scum. More so than anyone else I have voted for so far.

VOTE: Droog / Concvex

[Mathilda]

UNVOTE: newbie
VOTE: something pip

80 is the longest post to say nothing. Also ironically, it does what it purports to *facepalm*. Yes, 75 is pretty dumb, but Mathilda is the easy target here, and your obsession is overwrought. I get the vibe of scum happy to be able to jump in on a dumb comment and make hay with it. Way too much hay.

i agree with loweell

when mathilda said "newbie isnt a newbie something's up! " my first thought was
'mathilda is fake newbslipping and spip is letting him get away with it"

Admittedly after reading through the thread again my post did look completely out of place. Like many people though I wasn't paying much attention to the thread because of the Christmas holidays. I skimmed through the thread and posted, not realising that the game had actually progressed on a lot more than I had realised. But I knew that I had to be more active so I posted something in which the dry humour was missed by most people.

People often mistake me for a noob when the reality is that I just don't care to conform. I can conform if I want to, like when I am scum. Not that I mind being considered a noob. I recognise that every forum has it's own style of Mafia and yes sometimes it takes a while to figure out what that style is. I am still learning about this particular site. I am finding it quite useful though to see how people react to the way I play. It can be quite revealing. Are people being opportunistic and looking for an easy lynch? Are they just steeped in the culture of this particular site? Are they genuinely questioning and thinking through what I have said?

For example the fact that Lowell hasn't warned about going for an easy target suggests that he is more concerned about finding the right person to lynch rather than achieving a lynch regardless. This makes him more town in my eyes.

[Mathilda]

liking dominator's entr

What exactly do you like about dominator's entry?

[Mathilda]

UNVOTE: whoever
VOTE: conc

To add pressure. This looks like the kind of game where we just wagon everyone to get them to wake up. Wake me when it's my turn.

*yawns*

scum scum scum scum

Why?

[Mathilda]

Sorry should have said "Lowell

has

warned about going for an easy target"

[Mathilda]

i also thought mathildas post on you
about how 'hes not a newb omg :O"
was her trying to newbslip

she's playted just too many games
for me to believe she really thought that

This is a definite misrepresentation of what I said and makes me lean more scum on you. I have already explained what I made that post #91 #249

The opening sentence of that post was meant to be whimsical and wry and not to be taken seriously. Point out where I expressed outright surprise as suggested with your "omg :O"

[Mathilda]

Why should I respond if I am satisfied with the response?

This all looks contrived by you to find distract people from the lynch wagon on your slot. This in itself makes me read you as scum. More so than anyone else I have voted for so far.

These first 2 sentences give me some bad vibes. Most of the votes on droog are about conc's entrance.

And so now when there's content from that slot - droog replacing in with pressure, you now say he's scum for giving reads and pushing other people?

What about droogs' posts exactly seem like a distraction?

Another thing - what about my 'response' satisfied you?

(I'm assuming it's a post that I made?)

~Taly

I'll let you answer that one by asking you this question. What is there in your response #41 that is not satisfactory?

Here is the quote in full

Oh yeah I'm not gonna bother signing posts because I'll just forget at the scummiest moment

Can you explain what you meant by this? Please define what you mean by "scummiest moment". I just glossed over it because I did not understand it. And can everyone else who thinks that it is scummy explain why?

I meant I'm just gonna not sign from the start, because I will inevitably forget, and when I do someone will try to turn it against us. It's a bullshit thing that happens always with hydras so I figure I'll deal with it now instead of later in when it might be important.

There will be dissonance in this hydra. All of us are talkative, all of us will be around to answer for ourselves. Learn that now.

Can't think of anything that is not satisfactory? No? Me neither. Or do you just want me to make up something in order to answer people's questions?

[Mathilda]

idk how to respond to taly on wallposting
i dont feel strongly about it
maybe save for endgame

I have to ask you.
Are you posting in Haiku?
From your mobile phone?

[Mathilda]

newbie and mathilda are scum.

VOTE: Mathilda

Reasons please.

[Mathilda]

I am also happy voting for Dom instead of Droog. I think they're both scum.

The ones who think are town are:

Something Pip
Newbie
Burning_Earth
RadiantalyFarrar3

[Mathilda]

Nvm read Lowell instead of droog, thought everyone was insane. Why you not mention Lowell Hildy?

I need to ISO him carefully to see whether he is just inactive or making sure to keep his head under the radar. I plan to do that next.

[Mathilda]

Well it didn't take long to ISO Lowell. It actually took longer to find one of his posts in order to click 'ISO'.

I'm not sure that there's enough information to say with any confidence whether or he is scum keeping his head down or whether he is just not taking part in the game. That's understandable to begin with because it took a while for this game to become busy, but things are happening now but he hasn't come back. He's been prodded in the past and he's said that the weekend is not good for him so I think we should start applying far more pressure after today if he does not change his ways.

As far as I can see there is only one post where he attempts any scum hunting #85. At most he's just saying a short sentence such as X and Y are town, or vote Z but without giving any reasons.

Lowell should definitely stay on the watch list, but I would feel happier lynching someone who gives off scummy vibes by the way that they are posting rather than just because they are inactive. That gives us more confidence that we're lynching because they are rather scum rather than anti-town.

[Mathilda]

Just to add, I wouldn't be unhappy with a Lowell lynch. I put him as neutral leaning scum at the moment.

[Mathilda]

If there is no chance of the lynch wagon moving onto either Droog or Dom then I am willing to hammer Lowell. I am not as confident that he is scum as the other two but there is still a good chance that he is scum. At the very least we're removing a player who is not pro-town. Other than Droog and Dom, I'm certainly more confident voting for Lowell than for anyone else at this point in the game.

Stating intention to hammer.

[Mathilda]

Mathilda can you make a case for why Newbie is town? 'Cause I'm not seeing it.

Because she is scum-hunting and trying to think critically about what people are saying. I know that experienced scum will hide by scum hunting but I haven't really found any reason to suggest that this is the case with Newbie over any other players who are also scum hunting.

Newbie can also be suspicious of anyone that is town reading her (e.g. me with my weird post about her being a newbie). Scum on the other hand need to be more careful about avoiding people's attentions and the temptation for them is to not contend town reads on themselves from townies.

[Mathilda]

Why are you supporting a vanity wagon 2 days before deadline?

It is not a vanity wagon because RF3 moved his vote from Lowell thereby stopping an imminent hammer. Calling it a vanity wagon suggests that the wagon has had no effect whatsoever when clearly it has.

[Mathilda]

Are people finally starting to realize I'm town? It's about damn time.

dom is another player I just noticed. It seems most games he starts and then quits. He hasn't quit here, maybe he likes his role more because it is scum?

I worry about how many scum might be on your lynch wagon if you are town. Ironically you might be the easy lynch target now for being so inactive.

I am far less suspicious of people calling for another lynch wagon near the end of a day phase than those who joined the first genuine lynch wagon that came along. And I am now more suspicious of sPip for criticising RF3 for pulling out when you were at at L-1 and I stated an intent to hammer #411.

If you are town then of course you are going to be worried about whether the lynch is correct. One could argue that RF3 stopping the imminent hammer was distancing but that only works if you obviously need to be lynched and it will happen anyway. This is not the case here.

[Mathilda]

Mathilda

Seems kind of weird
That you are willing to hammer loweell
But say that radvantage is clearly having an effect

If you really are OK with lyrics chiggers loweell
Aren't we still I'm the same spot

Sorry I didn't understand this. I think your predictive text went haywire.

[Mathilda]

Vote Lowell 2016.

Blimey! How long are these day phases?

[Mathilda]

Ok so here's my problem
Basedan on mathilda 420
Loweell
And radiant

There are a few people who find the loweell wagon
Has scum on it

Are you seriously suggesting that the Lowell lynch wagon does not have any scum on it?

That rarely happens and if it does, scum normally win.

That happened on my only scum game on this forum and only because town had a tendency to collectively death-tunnel at the drop of a hat. I remember someone mentioning during the game how an all-town lynch wagon on day 1 would more often than not break town.

You are making me think that Lowell might be town. Or have I misunderstood you?

[Mathilda]

If you want to say scum is on loweell wagon
You need to say who

Well, you for a start.

Probability is though that scum will be on the wagon. It is unlikely for scum not to be, especially in a slow game where people are reluctant to lynch and are not collectively suffering from cognitive bias.

[Mathilda]

I don't understand why this day hasn't ended yet. Not one person has produced any convincing reason to believe that Lowell is town.

Obviously the people pushing for a Lowell lynch have not made a convincing enough argument that he is scum. People are all guilty until proved innocent in a Mafia game but we only have one lynch which means that we go for the best case on one person to be lynched. We can't rely on PoE on Day 1.

And for those who wonder who is scum on Lowell's wagon, my belief is that there aren't any (scum = Lowell, Newbie, Mathilda) but if there are then it's Scorpious or shaddow.

And this makes me suspicious of you as well. Maybe I was right with my initial impression of you.

We can either sit here arguing our way to a no lynch, or we can lynch Lowell and, at the very worst, gain information from the flip.

We're gaining information now by seeing who is pushing for a Lowell lynch with very little information to go on and who don't bother making a good case for doing so, but telling people that it should be a default action to lynch him.

(At best of course we will lynch one scum, with another [Newbie] soon to follow.) If Lowell flips town then several people have some explaining to do, and likewise if he flips scum.

The same could be said for lynching anyone in this game. You and me included. Tell us why Lowell is the

best

candidate for lynching today.

The fact that the discussion has switched to "who on the wagon is scum?" means that our focus has shifted away from Lowell himself and toward how people have interacted with him. This discussion will only yield anything once he flips.

This is scum motivation here, not town. Town are worried about mislynching but want to generate information. Scum just want a mislynch.

I'm reading you as scum now.

So to answer Droog's question, that's both Droog and sPip as scum on the Lowell lynch wagon, which then means that it's more likely that Lowell is town and just an inactive player. I shall now be voting for him. Find someone else to finish your lynch wagon.

[Mathilda]

The fact that a lot of people are talking about who is or isn't town on my wagon makes me think a lot of people think I'm not actually scum.

Keep up. It's me talking about scum on your wagon with Droog and sPip saying scum are the ones not voting. It's comments like these from you which are suspicious, but for me it's Droog and sPip defence of their push to lynch you that's even more suspicious.

This is why I am reading you as anti town and not scum.

[Mathilda]

(scum = Lowell, Newbie, Mathilda)

Another thing. Isn't it more likely that scum would be throwing their scum buddies under a bus the moment a definite lynch wagon developed on one of them? If I was a scum buddy with Lowell I would most certainly be voting for him right now. I wouldn't be sticking my neck out arguing with those wanting to lynch him. That's because I would know that he was scum and likely to be lynched and that I would be next in line.

Yes there is WIFOM and all that, but it's still best to stay away from suspicion if you can as scum. This is why your scum read is flawed at best.

[Mathilda]

Obviously the people pushing for a Lowell lynch have not made a convincing enough argument that he is scum.

I need you to look at post 215 and tell me how it isn't the scummiest post in the game.

Actually hold up I have more problems with Hildy's posts so I'm gonna dedicate a post to it

I would argue that it's not so much scummy as someone who isn't engaged in the game or cares what happens in it. The key sentence here is "This game is going nowhere." Even noob scum, assuming that they are interested in winning, would be stating that Concv is scum and that we should vote for him rather than come out with such an apathetic response.

For reference the post in question:

I mean I guess Concev could be scum, but there's no where near enough content from the slot.

Very true. Vote him anyway. This game is going nowhere.

[Mathilda]

And for those who wonder who is scum on Lowell's wagon, my belief is that there aren't any (scum = Lowell, Newbie, Mathilda) but if there are then it's Scorpious or shaddow.

And this makes me suspicious of you as well. Maybe I was right with my initial impression of you.

Why? Do you suspect everyone who disagrees with/suspects you?

Not at all.

As I stated, I am suspicious of people unwilling to entertain the idea that there are scum on the Lowell lynch wagon.

We can either sit here arguing our way to a no lynch, or we can lynch Lowell and, at the very worst, gain information from the flip.

We're gaining information now by seeing who is pushing for a Lowell lynch with very little information to go on and who don't bother making a good case for doing so, but telling people that it should be a default action to lynch him.

Are you confident enough in Lowell-town to act on that information? If so, why? If not, what the fuck are you talking about?

I am not confident that Lowell is town, but I am getting scummier vibes from sPip and Droog. They could be bussing their scum buddy as far as I know.

• Anti-town is not the same as scum play
  
• Lowell is anti-town because of his apathy. Droog and sPip are actively pushing for anti-town action.
  
• How do you tell the difference between an apathetic town player and scum?
  
• Lynching an apathetic anti-town player does not help town because it generates very little information.
  
• Town are generally more worried about mislynching because they lack information, especially on day 1. Droog and sPip don't seem worried about not having the necessary information to avoid a mislynch yet they don't ever state a clear cut case against Lowell.
  
• Lowell may well be scum, or he may be an easy lynch because of his apathy and anti-town play, but regardless I don't want to do what scum wants me to do.

[Mathilda]

hahahahahahaha
Mathilda that is LITERALLY the scummiest thing I have ever read.

LITERALLY? As in being literal? You mean my post was the scummiest post that you have ever read in your entire history of playing Mafia?

And the overly exaggerated laugh 'hahahahahaha'?

It's obvious that you are trying to cajole me. Have you considered using a or ? Because that always works in convincing people.

That's defending your partner, chainsawing his attackers, AND pushing no-lynch. Hey I've done that before...as scum.A5)3

Maybe you just suck as scum.

Okay. Lowell is scummy due

in part

to the fact that he is antitown. He is also using random and unjustified attacks and read swings, promoting apathy, using AtE, being willing to lynch anybody who isn't him, and putting words in people's mouths.

If that is all you were pushing then I would have been far less suspicious. Why all the cajoling and being absolutely sure about who scum is and that none of them are on the Lowell lynch wagon?

With that out of the way, let me just take a moment to laugh at the person pushing no-lynch (no other lynch can realistically happen today) and calling

us

antitown.

Yes let's all laugh at someone pushing for a no-lynch. Who is that again? I don't know. No one ever has. Where did I ever push for a no-lynch? Like Droog you're misrepresenting what I have said. This is scummy behaviour.

Let's see... "Generates little information" is a lie. If Lowell flips scum we have basically caught the scumteam.

And as pointed out to you before, you can say the same thing about everyone.

Let's lynch you instead. If you flip scum then we have basically caught the scum team.

"Worried about a mislynch"-who said I wasn't?

Because you are sure that Lowell is scum and are laughing at anyone who questions your push.

But going around saying "oh but what if he's town" up until the end is whiteknighting.

Only if the other person is scum and an extremely poor player. I am neither.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that town don't also have doubts about whether the person about to be lynched is also town? Because if so I can point you to times when this has happened.

But again, in your fantasy world, scum play simplistically it seems. They never lynch a scum buddy and always come to each other's defence. You seem a much better player than to believe that tripe which is why I have you down as scum.

You don't win by having doubts.

Scum certainly don't.

[Mathilda]

Saying that right now Mathilda is aiming for a droog lynch is inaccurate, Mathilda right now is aiming for a no-lynch by pushing a droog wagon. Droog absolutely will not be lynched today.

Now unless you think town gains more information by not lynching today, I don't see how what you two are doing is not anti town.

Again this is incorrect and another example of you casts undue suspicion on people. It is a major reason why I find you scummy. I never said that I was pushing for a no lynch and I never said that what I would do if it looked like a no lynch was likely. There's still more than a day left. That's enough time for a counter-wagon. If Lowell does get lynched then I want to see who does the final hammer. If it came to it and it was a choice of a Lowell lynch or nothing then I would hammer Lowell myself. I even stated an intention to hammer Lowell myself earlier on before RF3 removed his vote.

To me the value of hammering Lowell lays not in seeing whether he is scum, but in seeing who steps forward to make sure it happens. The flip will give me a better idea as to the alignment of you and Droog.

[Mathilda]

I haven't really had time today to put forward the kind of detailed case with post references that I want against Droog and Pip, but essentially the thing that makes me suspicious is that they both misrepresent what people say in their reply. I'm trying to think of a better word, a strawman argument I suppose. But they will reply as if you said something completely different to what you actually did, but in a way that casts more suspicion on you.

With the old rule of thumb about looking at a player's motivation, this comes across as scummy. It is in town's interests to look at alternative points of view and to be able to determine whether they are correct or not. It is in scum's interests to make another poster look scummy.

They also were both denying the possibility that scum are not on the Lowell lynch wagon. While possible the chances of that happening are slim even when town suffer from a mob mentality, and judging by the slow pace of this game, I would say extremely slim. Yet they were both so adamant about it being the case. I know that town players can suffer from cognitive bias and tunnelling, but the fact that they were both doing this made me suspicious.

The thing is that we're Day 1 and we don't have any information to go on, so why the tunnelling? What I am suspicious of is that because is that a counter wagon was on scum which meant that Mafia needed to really push hard for an alternative wagon. This and the fact that the game has been slow to start meant that scum probably hasn't had the chance to just hang back and wait for town to form their own lynch wagon. So when someone has questioned whether there are better lynches, they have been cajoled into conforming. This more than anything has made my hackles raise. It is perfectly reasonable for a town player to wonder whether we're all somehow mistaken or are suffering from a collective cognitive bias. The more I've been cajoled the more suspicious I've become.

[Mathilda]

VOTE: newbie

Spent the latter part of Day 1 talking about scum being on lowell's wagon and talking then votes lowell to put him at L-1 two days before the deadline before disappearing for the remainder of the day. I get be willing to lynch somebody thats not a scum read to avoid a no-lynch but not at that point in the day.

I don't understand this post?

In your posts; I don't exactly see you saying that scum was on Lowell's wagon? And you put him to L-3 not L-1?

And you'd be willing to vote anyone that's NOT a scumread to avoid no-lynch? Eugh...

What are your reasons for thinking Newbie is scum?

My post should have said "Newbie spent the latter part of Day 1..."

Except that Newbie did not spend the latter part of Day 1 talking about scum on the Lowell lynch wagon. That was me. If you ISO Newbie then she was focusing more on Dom. The only time she mentioned it was in response to a direct question from Droog #403.

[Mathilda]

meh
VOTE: mathilda i want my vote back hre

Any particular reasons?

[Mathilda]

VOTE: mathilda
Your counter-wagon cases yesterday seemed to be divided between:
- independent of Lowells allignment
- based on the assumption he was town.

Where did I assume that he was town? I think Lowell appeared somewhat scummy, but I also wasn't sure that he wasn't just an apathetic player. As it turned out I was

right

. What made me

more

suspicious though was the push by Something Pip and Droog the closer we got to the deadline and how they were absolutely sure that there were no scum on the Lowell wagon. My reckoning was that even if Lowell was scum then there was likely to be at least one scum on there distancing themselves from him. Remember at one point I even said that I was prepared to hammer Lowell. RF3 objected, but it was the objections to any dissent that caught my eye.

Given a choice between apathetic anti-town play and pro-active scummy play, I'll vote for the latter.

[Mathilda]

I'm ok with Newbie or Mathilda, basically have a death tunnel on both.

pbpa?

Point By Point Analysis. Basically quoting a whole bunch of posts and explaining why they're scummy.
-the smart head

So hold on. You and Droog were really pushing hard for a mislynch yesterday and thinking that everyone who was unsure was scummy. Now you're pushing hard to lynch those very people who were proven right??

I suppose it's true, offence really is the best defence.

VOTE: Something Pip

[Mathilda]

I'm ok with Newbie or Mathilda,

basically have a death tunnel on both.

Let's think about this for a moment. Despite death tunneling Lowell yesterday, Pip here does exactly the same thing today.

From a single player you could argue that maybe it's just their style of play (if you're being diplomatic about it that is).

But Pip is a hydra. That means that there are two (?) players co-ordinating their actions. It is far less likely that both players just happen to suffer from the same fixation and susceptibility to confirmation bias. It is more likely that the two players have decided in advance who they will be pushing for today.

Now compare this to RF3. Here we have a hydra with three heads. In terms of balance, is it likely that we would have two hydras in the same faction? That would mean 5 brains working on one problem. It's more likely TvS.

So which one is which?

RF3 has been inconsistent. In a single player this would be scummy but in a hydra it suggests a lack of information and different people trying to figure things out. This suggests that RF3 is town.

Something Pip on the other hand has been very strong in his reads and openly admits to death tunneling despite pushing hard for a mislynch. There's no doubt here. No lack of confidence that you see with other players who have death tunnelled and been proven wrong. This suggests to me that a co-ordinated plan to lynch someone specific rather than to try to find scum. This tells me that Something Pip is scum.

[Mathilda]

So if I had any really strong reads right now I would be trying to slow my other head down, but I don't I'm fine with him (hey something keep pushing peeps) to keep doing the newbie stuff until I get a hard scumread on someone for something. The whole hydra PT Yesterday was "Newbie, Mathilda and Lowell are confScum, the game is solved" and of all those Lowell was my hardest scumread so I have to reevaluate.
-pip

mathilda please actually read our posts. I just said that my head doesn't have any strong reads

Apologies, I forgot about that post.

UNVOTE: Something Pip

[Mathilda]

So if I had any really strong reads right now I would be trying to slow my other head down, but I don't I'm fine with him (hey something keep pushing peeps) to keep doing the newbie stuff until I get a hard scumread on someone for something. The whole hydra PT Yesterday was "Newbie, Mathilda and Lowell are confScum, the game is solved" and of all those Lowell was my hardest scumread so I have to reevaluate.
-pip

mathilda please actually read our posts. I just said that my head doesn't have any strong reads

Apologies, I forgot about that post.

UNVOTE: Something Pip

So between everything you wrote in 541 and 542, the deciding factor on whether they're worthy of a vote is whether or not they have strong reads? Something smells off about that.

Yeah I knew someone would pounce on this before I posted. But yes, I was voting for him because he was displaying a strong read despite clearly being wrong. And now it has been pointed out that my vote was based on incomplete data I retracted it.

I'm still really suspicious of Something Pip but if I had remembered that post that was pointed out to me then I would have held back and waited to see what happened next. The thing is that how the person reacts to a mislynch is extremely telling and gives us a lot of information. Unfortunately something pip is a bloody hydra and one is playing really scummy (the so-called smart head) and the other has at least made a few towny sounds which means I need to think about it further. God I hate playing with Hydras. I never even realised they existed before this game.

Droog is my other main suspect. But I'm wondering if he's either scum or actually just a crap player. Look at his signature, I'm wondering if he's one of these players who play like scum all the time.

"...probably the worst player I have had the pleasure of playing with in the last ten years..."
"i dislike this guy immensely"

To be honest I don't really read his posts any more except on the odd occasion when he starts posting a bit more lucidly.

[Mathilda]

You and Droog were really pushing hard for a mislynch yesterday

we iddnt know at the time it was a mislnchy
or at least i didnt
youre ust spinning a narrative

Yes but you and Something Pip didn't even contemplate the idea that it might have been. You did not display any doubt. This was in Day 1. Town starts with no information whatsoever so doubt is natural because we're essentially just guessing. Scum start knowing that everyone else is town so they have far less doubt about who needs to be lynched. This needs to be faked and faking is difficult.

I didn't know that it was a mislynch either, and after twilight I was thinking that maybe Lowell was scum after all by the things that he was saying. But I was at least

trying to lynch scum

. There is nothing to suggest that you were worried about which person to lynch. You did not do any scum hunting.

If you pick someone at random then chances are that it's going to be a mislynch. So if you push for that without caring whether you are correct or not, then you are effectively pushing for a mislynch.

[Mathilda]

To be honest I don't really read his posts any more except on the odd occasion when he starts posting a bit more lucidly.

Sadly that's been rare in any of the games I've played with him. I almost always scum read him based on his posting.

That's useful to know. Thank you.

[Mathilda]

In terms of balance, is it likely that we would have two hydras in the same faction? That would mean 5 brains working on one problem. It's more likely TvS.

So which one is which?

(Why) did you drop this particular argument?

Good question and one which I thought about when unvoting Something Pip. My argument about having 5 people on one faction still applies, but I am not confident enough that by itself it warrants anything more than a FoS towards Something Pip. When I thought that both heads were continuing on as before without re-evaluating their previous reads then I felt that there was enough evidence to warrant the vote.

I'm not going to vote for someone based solely on my own speculation regarding balance. It is only one piece of evidence to take into consideration. By itself it is not enough.

[Mathilda]

Now you're pushing hard to lynch those very people who were proven right??

So those who made sure they weren't on a mislynch can't be those that knew it would be a mislynch?

As explained before (posted below) the pace of the game hasn't allowed scum to just hang back and avoid jumping on a lynch wagon. Town have been too reticent about lynching to allow that to happen. The chance of scum not being on that lynch wagon were extremely slow yet Something Pip and Droog were adamant that this was not the case which was the main reason why I am suspicious of them both.

The thing is that we're Day 1 and we don't have any information to go on, so why the tunnelling? What I am suspicious of is that because is that a counter wagon was on scum which meant that Mafia needed to really push hard for an alternative wagon. This and the fact that the game has been slow to start meant that scum probably hasn't had the chance to just hang back and wait for town to form their own lynch wagon. So when someone has questioned whether there are better lynches, they have been cajoled into conforming. This more than anything has made my hackles raise. It is perfectly reasonable for a town player to wonder whether we're all somehow mistaken or are suffering from a collective cognitive bias. The more I've been cajoled the more suspicious I've become.

But let's look more closely at what you're saying.

Now you're pushing hard to lynch those very people who were proven right??

So those who made sure they weren't on a mislynch can't be those that knew it would be a mislynch?

You are creating a false dichotomy here. It's not a case of deliberately mislynching or deliberately avoiding a mislynch. What you say does not in anyway follow on from what I said. Analysing this in terms of motivation, it looks like you are deliberately trying to make me look scummy. This makes me think that you yourself might be scum.

[Mathilda]

OK I've probably gone as far as I can for the moment trying to find scum. There are a few things that I need to bear in mind with my scum reads.

Droog seems to always be a scummy player by default and I need to compare his current scummy play with his scummy play when he was actually scum. That means looking at a previous game he played and comparing, which takes time. I've played with people like him before and it's essentially a completely random slot.

Something Pip is a hydra. One head is scummy as usual (the self proclaimed smart head), whereas the other gave some indication of re-evaluating their previous position.

I'm finding it difficult to follow Trow's posts a lot of the time. He doesn't express himself clearly and I'm not entirely sure that he's not reading posts properly. Although he has replaced in so there is a lot of information to process.

So I'm going to do a bit of a PoE to reduce the pool of candidates.

RF3 is town. All three heads have clearly been trying to figure things out.
Shaddowez is town. Probing questions and an active scum hunter.
Karnage: Same.

I'll put Newbie as a slight town lean for the moment. I did note how Newbie joined the lynch wagon but I thought that with 2 days to go and it looking like a counter wagon was not going to succeed it was a reasonable thing to do. Lowell certainly did not play pro-town so lynching him was a valid choice.

This leaves:

Egg who hasn't yet made a proper entrance so I need to reserve judgement.

Who else is there? I'm having trouble keeping track of who has replaced out and who is lurking.

[Mathilda]

If you don't want to do egg for whatever reason there's other people we can hit up.
Newbie, Mathilda, everyone else who is town. Please. Work with me.

Agreed. People are just repeating the same arguments and ignoring any responses as if they were never made. Trow and Droog are guilty of this. I am sick of repeating myself. I like the idea of town coordinating their actions. Will post properly when I get to work.

[Mathilda]

Mathilda

- What did you think of Newbie's jump to defend conc? Also, interested to see what you think if you look at Newbie and droog's ISOs, since you have droog as a scum read.

I'll look into this after responding to the other posts.

[Mathilda]

And Droog is probably my top town read, actually.

See I just don't understand this. Even if Droog is town, he's the kind of player who acts extremely scummy all the time. These players can be really difficult to play with. If they are town, they distract the town vote and cause a mislynch until people eventually realise just to ignore the player. So when they're scum they get away with it.

I've played with a few people like this before and it was interesting to see how subtly their play changed when they were actually scum. Most people try playing like town when they're scum. Players like Droog play like scum all the time to hide when they're scum (whether intentional or not). The subtle tell that I have noticed is that these omni-scum players will actually try harder to push for a lynch and to misrepresent what was said. They often actively try to scum up other slots and cast shade. I haven't played with Droog before so I can't say for sure, but it does look like he is trying to do this.

For example him pushing this completely trivial point about me asking a question about a minor point early in the game, being given an answer and then not wanting to lynch regardless of the answer I got. Writing that out, it doesn't even make sense. I explained twice that I was satisfied with the answer and did not feel the need to pursue it #248 #331

Then when asked by Newbie why he was persisting in pushing this he responds:

How does it seem that she didn't care about the answer?

because she never acknowledged the answer

So Droog's scum read on me stems from asking for clarification from RF3 about what he meant by not signing his posts and receiving a response way back in #41. And when pushed it comes down to me not posting something to RF3 along the lines of:

'Dear Sir(s), I deem that to be a satisfactory answer. I can hereby confirm that I shall henceforth drop this line of enquiry and look elsewhere in order to hunt those dastardly nefarious members of the scum faction, yours sincerely, Mathilda'

It is for this reason that I am suspicious that Droog may actually be scum in this game as opposed to playing

like

scum as he does in every game. He's actively trying to make other people look suspicious.

Egg. Please explain why you think Droog is not only town, but probably your top town read.

[Mathilda]

All Droog's votes and unvotes are naked #229 #238 #293 #528
#592. This doesn't help town in the slightest and allows for him to hop around without generating any information or giving town a chance to question whether his reasons are correct.

He casts aspersions without backing up his statement #236 but when asked for justification gives an extremely weak excuse #255. Also
#226. This is similar to what I mentioned in my previous post regarding actively trying to make other slots look suspicious in contrast to anti-town play.


He lies about what people did in order to make them look scummy.

This is the first time
You've said you're satisfied with rc3''s response
Why would you ask a question
Not follow up on it

And then pretend the answer always satisfied you

I was the one who mentioned the fact that scum were likely to be on the Lowell lynch wagon, yet Droog doesn't let the idea drop. This looks like it is being overly defensive. He is acting incredulous at the idea of it for the most part #362 #364 #365 #379 #428
#429 #430 #434 #442 #449
#450

I shall concentrate on laying out my case against Something Pip next.

[Mathilda]

So getting back to my previous point, I look forward to hearing from Egg why Droog is not only not scum, but probably one of your top town reads.

[Mathilda]

Something Pip is more difficult because he is a hydra and therefore the style and play changes depending on which head is talking.

Earlier on, I first became suspicious #91 because Something Pip accused me of scumreading someone who I actually was town reading at the time #80. It could have been a simple mistake of not reading my post properly. It wasn't my best post but I find it useful to attract attention at the beginning of the day because it creates an opportunity for any potential scum to jump on it and I like to see who is out to make others look suspicious.

Lowell picks up on this as well:

UNVOTE: newbie
VOTE: something pip

80 is the longest post to say nothing. Also ironically, it does what it purports to *facepalm*. Yes, 75 is pretty dumb, but Mathilda is the easy target here, and your obsession is overwrought.

I get the vibe of scum happy to be able to jump in on a dumb comment and make hay with it. Way too much hay.

Oh I'm sorry if we haven't posted as much content as you.

I'll agree with pip and call this a chainsaw.

Lowell later flipped green so we know that it wasn't a chainsaw. At that stage in the game it could have been another town scumhunting or scum chainsawing. Something Pip decided that it was a chainsaw. This is an example of him concluding that someone is scummy rather than admitting to not having enough information to go on. If you consider this in terms of motivation, the former is scummy whereas the latter is town. Scum need to cast suspicion on other players. Town need to figure out what's going on.

Something Pip then starts referring to it as a chainsaw as if it is established fact without giving post references for other people to check the veracity of his claim #119. Is this a successful strategy for casting suspicion on someone? Evidentally yes. Lowell was later lynched.

Something Pip's response to Newbie is interesting #283. He responds to each line or so to create a wall of text and makes rather generic accusations about Newbie 'saying something to say nothing'. To me these look like genuine points from Newbie and Something Pip is interpreting them as definite scum tells. You could make the same accusations to anyone's post in the same way to make them look like scum and deny them a chance to properly defend themselves.

In Something Pip's defence though is this post.

I agree with the smart head's case on Newbie (most of it some of the points are reaching too far)

Reasonable assessment. I tend to unintentionally twist facts to support my arguments sometimes.
-the smart head

This makes it less clear whether Something Pip is deliberately playing scummy or is playing anti-town.

So we have another person who really likes Droog #302. OK I can see why someone would think that maybe he is town despite playing scummy as usual, but

really likes ??[/] Again, as with Egg ... no explanation as to why.

Shaddowez asks him to explain himself #303

Something Pip's answer gives no information #306 and Shadow pursues it #309. His response is "He had good points generally, and I agreed with all of his reads and why he was doing them" #311

So minimal explanation when pressed. Nothing we can check against ... or Something Pip town reads anyone who agrees with him #340. This would certainly match with all his scum reads being those who were not lynching Lowell. Again ... scum or anti-town?

Well I think the fact that he is a hydra gives us a clue. The chances of two people making the same type of anti-town posts suggests that it may be deliberate. Add to that my previous point about two hydras on the same faction meaning five heads in two slots working together for a common goal. The difference in behaviour is quite different between Something Pip and RF3.

I shall continue my ISO of him in a while.

[Mathilda]

How the hell are you expecting me to respond to your points one by one pip if you insert yellow text into a big wall of text?

Or is that deliberate?

[Mathilda]

And Droog is probably my top town read, actually.

See I just don't understand this. Even if Droog is town, he's the kind of player who acts extremely scummy all the time. These players can be really difficult to play with. If they are town, they distract the town vote and cause a mislynch until people eventually realise just to ignore the player. So when they're scum they get away with it.

Evidence?

What kind of evidence is available for me? It's an observation generalised over many games. It's called personal experience. If you disagree with it then say so and say why.

I've played with a few people like this before and it was interesting to see how subtly their play changed when they were actually scum. Most people try playing like town when they're scum

No new information here

.

Here we go again, taking parts out of context and making a generic accusation. It is relevant when comparing to the next sentence. This is evidence of you trying to pick holes for the sake of picking holes rather than because you disagree with what I am saying.

Players like Droog play like scum

citation needed

What the actual Copulation? Where on earth am I supposed to find a citation for such a statement. Another case of you demanding something that you know can't be obtained so that you can dismiss a point

all the time to hide when they're scum (whether intentional or not). The subtle tell that I have noticed is that these omni-scum players will actually try harder to push for a lynch and to misrepresent what was said. They often actively try to scum up other slots and cast shade. I haven't played with Droog before so I can't say for sure, but it does look like he is trying to do this.

For example him pushing this completely trivial point about me asking a question about a minor point early in the game, being given an answer and then not wanting to lynch regardless of the answer I got. Writing that out, it doesn't even make sense. I explained twice that I was satisfied with the answer and did not feel the need to pursue it #248

The point that you pushed RF3 for a second and then immediately jumped off without a good reason is still unexplained. This post is a weak way to get on the droog wagon, not the other way around

That is your interpretation. I am laying out the facts with post references. I asked a question of RF3 for clarification. What isn't explained is why I should be expected to vote for someone regardless of what answer I get. What's the point of even asking questions in that case

#331

and this post is genuinely awful, maybe not alignment indicative but saying that posts that say "this post is good because I can't find any problems with it" shouldn't be questioned is going to be questioned.

Another example of you changing history and accusing people of doing things that they didn't.

Then when asked by Newbie why he was persisting in pushing this he responds:

How does it seem that she didn't care about the answer?

because she never acknowledged the answer

So Droog's scum read on me stems from asking for clarification from RF3 about what he meant by not signing his posts and receiving a response way back in #41. And when pushed it comes down to me not posting something to RF3 along the lines of:

'Dear Sir(s), I deem that to be a satisfactory answer. I can hereby confirm that I shall henceforth drop this line of enquiry and look elsewhere in order to hunt those dastardly nefarious members of the scum faction, yours sincerely, Mathilda'

Funny, but when people ask you your response based on an answer and your answer is that you liked a post because you didn't dislike it, it is reasonable to continue to push in that direction. You have yet this game to really fall under serious pressure, but you view yourself as a easy mislynch target.

I really can't believe I am having this conversation. I asked a question. It was answered. I did not see any reason to pursue it. What else can I say? The fact that you and Droog are trying to make this into something suspicious says far more about you two then it does about me

It is for this reason that I am suspicious that Droog may actually be scum in this game as opposed to playing

like

scum as he does in every game. He's actively trying to make other people look suspicious.

Also what scumhunting is, this is only bad when it is oppurtunistic, which I have yet to see a case for

And you're doing what Droog is doing. Actively trying to make someone look suspicious. See my previous point. Scumhunting is NOT about trying to make people look suspicious. The clue is in the name. Scum hunting is about finding out who is scum. Applying pressure and casting shade are two different things. If you don't understand that then well ... what can I say?

Egg. Please explain why you think Droog is not only town, but probably your top town read.

All Droog's votes and unvotes are naked #229 #238 #293 #528

I'm glad that you found it, but if you notice Droog posts his explanations in the posts around the vote. His "scummy" style is that he has many posts as opposed to long walls, and his votes are always seperate posts. Saying that the votes are naked - say 293 isn't true when 292 and 291 are both droog posts that are a case against lowell. The problem with the case is that the main point seems to be more reverse bandwagon logic, and then all of these points are just confbias trying to justify the original phallicy. The problem is that the purpose of this post is really shady. You build what you seem to view as a fairly damning case on droog, but then you you never call him scum in the post. It seems to just be discrediting egg's read on droog, but you never call egg scum or droog scum or really put pressure on them. You seem to be much more interested in stopping any potential town bloc than finding and pressuring scum.

And it took you a hell of a long time to move your vote from an RVS onto Lowell when basically you had built up a case against him and got people to agree on it. Want to really go there? And as for Droog's naked votes (now you're the one chainsawing) why should we accept that he posts explanations around his votes. Can we be sure that he always does? It's difficult enough to understand and relate back his Haiku posts as it is. His lucid moments are few and far between it seems.

#592. This doesn't help town in the slightest and allows for him to hop around without generating any information or giving town a chance to question whether his reasons are correct.

He casts aspersions without backing up his statement #236 but when asked for justification gives an extremely weak excuse #255. Also
#226. This is similar to what I mentioned in my previous post regarding actively trying to make other slots look suspicious in contrast to anti-town play.


He lies about what people did in order to make them look scummy.

This is the first time
You've said you're satisfied with rc3''s response
Why would you ask a question
Not follow up on it

And then pretend the answer always satisfied you

I was the one who mentioned the fact that scum were likely to be on the Lowell lynch wagon, yet Droog doesn't let the idea drop. This looks like it is being overly defensive. He is acting incredulous at the idea of it for the most part #362 #364 #365 #379 #428
#429 #430 #434 #442 #449
#450

I shall concentrate on laying out my case against Something Pip next.

pedit: yeah that case sucks as well, probably will respond tuesday night.
-pip

Annoying isn't it ...

[Mathilda]

you didnt care about the answer
enough to acknowledge it

i say this is scummy

It's never been a problem for me before, or anyone else as far as I can tell.

Give me an example where someone asked something, received an answer and they did not pursue the matter or acknowledge it. And they turned out to be scum.

[Mathilda]

All Droog's votes and unvotes are naked #229 #238 #293 #528
#592. This doesn't help town in the slightest and allows for him to hop around without generating any information or giving town a chance to question whether his reasons are correct.

only if you dont read the posts before and after
i think its pretty obvious in context why i vote where
if you disagree just ask

You're still making it more difficult for everyone else. It's in town's interests to communicate their ideas so they can be discussed and increase the chances of town lynching scum. Anti-town play from you at best.

[Mathilda]

For example him pushing this completely trivial point about me asking a question about a minor point early in the game, being given an answer and then not wanting to lynch regardless of the answer I got. Writing that out, it doesn't even make sense. I explained twice that I was satisfied with the answer and did not feel the need to pursue it #248 #331

youre lying
if you seriously think this is the crux of my read
on you this late in the game

maybe i wasnt clear enough
do you want me to elaborate

maybe my original point wasnt explaned well
do you want me to od oit again

Yes please. I would like you to present a case against me just once because as far as I can tell you haven't yet. Just naked votes. If I have missed your case because you posted it later on then a post reference would also be appreciated thanks.

[Mathilda]

Speaking of, I'm still waiting on an answer from 571. You said you'd do it after responding to other posts, and have since responded to more recent posts without doing so.

I hadn't finished ISOing Something Pip yet. But if you could point me in the direction of Newbie jumping to defend Conc then it would be appreciated thanks.

As for the second part of your question I can give a brief answer now. I haven't ISO'ed Newbie but did ISO Droog. But the overall impression I have of Newbie is that nothing has really come off as scummy from her. People are asking me to make a case for Newbie being town, well conversely I'd like them to make a case for Newbie being scum. She's certainly not an active poster, but that's not necessarily indicative of alignment. A player can be quiet because they're scum, because they're a town power role, because they're busy in real life or because they have got fed up with the game. Lowell was relatively inactive as well and he flipped town.

But some things in her favour are that she wasn't immediately welcoming of people town reading her and would still be critical of their posts (e.g. my one about her not being a noob). She has asked probing questions of Droog to try and find holes in his argument. It's only a lean but it's overall a town lean.

[Mathilda]

If I'm understanding this properly, I've actually seen it happen in more cases where scum doesn't bother to acknowledge or respond to something they started, because they don't really care. Town needs to figure out the motivation behind things so it's important to follow up.

OK that starts to make sense. Scum just want to appear to be scum hunting so just fire off random questions here and there without attracting too much ire.

Problem is that this is not what Droog has claimed and it would be silly of him even make that claim. Although what's going through Droog's mind is anyone's guess. He hasn't really explained much of anything. Also this would only be a scum tell if it was a pattern of behaviour. Droog is fixated on a single question.

I've certainly had people ask me questions in the past where I've answered them and they've not bothered responding. I have never found it alignment indicative and no one else has mentioned it.

[Mathilda]

Mathilda, vote with me or suggest an alternative wagon please.

-RC

I was waiting for Egg to respond as to why he has Droog as his top town read. He has ignored it.

VOTE: EGG

[Mathilda]

Damn I missed 635 from Egg. Better than I was expecting to be honest, but TOP town read?

[Mathilda]

My scum reads are Droog and Something Pip, and either Trow or Egg. If Droog and Pip are scum then well WP, if not then FU when you see my flip.

I've said my piece, I'm not going to bother Isoing the rest of Pip if I'm going to get lynched anyway.I have spent enough time on this game as it is.

[Mathilda]

From the way droog is looking at it, RF3 is pushing Mathilda around. If RF3 was scum, and Mathilda was town, this would probably beg more questions from Mathilda, especially with the way she's trying to look into people (and yet actively ignoring RF3 it seems). However, if Mathilda was scum and RF3 was town, she could just let it happen, and use it later to attempt a mislynch on RF3.

I think RF3 is town. I know that it's a hydra of three experienced players. I also know that I am town. I have decided that I am going to defer to the consensus and sheep their vote as long as they are voting for either Droog, Pip, Trow or Egg. That is the best chance of avoiding a mislynch today.

[Mathilda]

Karnage and Egg. Please state your case on Newbie. Why vote for her and not me? The people who think that Newbie are scum are voting for me, so by voting for her it looks like you are avoiding being on the wagon of a mislynch.

[Mathilda]

So Egg, ready to put your neck on the line?

Lynch wagons are great for making scum reveal themselves. It's town's greatest weapon.

[Mathilda]

Pedit: stop it Mathilda.

Stop what? Goading scum to reveal themselves?

I know how it work. If enough scum are on the wagon that's surely going to happen, then another will try to stay off it to maximise the chances that their faction will win.

Scum don't have that opportunity in this game. You're going to have work for your mislynch.

[Mathilda]

but shes only pushing hard now
all yesterday i had to request
me, i, her top scumread
had to request her cases
against me, i, her top scumread

Bullshit Droog.

You and Pip have both bulldozed two incorrect lynch wagons. You know that there will have to be some serious fallout from this in Day 3 and you're already re-writing history.

I'm concentrating now on flushing out the third goon.

fwiw
if math flips town
i will take a second look at spip since
he and i have driven both wagons
i will look heavily at rf3
with at outside chance of karnage

Why heavily at rf3? He's stayed off both wagons. I think if anyone will be proven town then it's him. Yet Karnage has joined the wagon with a naked vote when goaded on. Surely he should be your main target?

Or are you now distancing yourself from your scum buddies while taking down your main threat?

[Mathilda]

if math flips scum
i will take a hard look at newbie
and consider the lurker slots

This doesn't make sense. If I flip scum then why look at Newbie but not RF3? I read them both as town.

[Mathilda]

Your point being Droog?

[Mathilda]

but shes only pushing hard now
all yesterday i had to request
me, i, her top scumread
had to request her cases
against me, i, her top scumread

Those quotes are just random quotes.

[Mathilda]

Droog. I'm not going to be distracted by trying to defend myself. I'm more interested now in generating information for town.

How do you respond to the case that you are now distancing yourself from Something Pip and Karnage? Why are you suggesting looking at RF3 if I flip town but Newbie if I flip scum?

You want an excuse to start a wagon on the next person that stayed off the Lowell lynch wagon. If you were town you'd be considering looking at both Newbie and RF3 if I flip scum. But you know that I'm going to flip town.

[Mathilda]

How do you respond to the case that you are now distancing yourself from Something Pip and Karnage?

this is a case youve made?

FFS.

#666
#667

[Mathilda]

Stop evading the question and stop selectively quoting.

How do you respond to the case that you are now distancing yourself from Something Pip and Karnage? Why are you suggesting looking at RF3 if I flip town but Newbie if I flip scum?

You want an excuse to start a wagon on the next person that stayed off the Lowell lynch wagon. If you were town you'd be considering looking at both Newbie and RF3 if I flip scum. But you know that I'm going to flip town.

[Mathilda]

theres nothing to respond to
i am only distancing if i am scum
i am not scum

So no answer then. All you can say is that you're not scum.

You don't even bother to explain why you would look at RF3 if I flip town and Newbie if I flip scum and not both of them if I flip scum.

The reason for this is because you can't justify it, but you're scum and it's what you need to do next to get rid of RF3 who stayed off the Lowell lynch wagon.

As far as I'm concerned you've just confirmed to me that you are scum.

[Mathilda]

rf3 has been on the periphery of both wagons
backing you up
its a good place for scum to hide if youre town

newbie has been actively aiding you
its a good place for scum if you're his flailing partner

If both RF3 and Newbie have been backing me up and actively aiding me, why treat them differently depending on how I flip?

Your answer makes no sense. This is because you came up with that strategy based on what scum needs to do next.

[Mathilda]

If both RF3 and Newbie have been backing me up and actively aiding me, why treat them differently depending on how I flip?

[Mathilda]

If both RF3 and Newbie have been backing me up and actively aiding me, why treat them differently depending on how I flip?

Your answer makes no sense. This is because you came up with that strategy based on what scum needs to do next.

[Mathilda]

Stop evading the question that you can't answer Droog. You have been caught out making a scum slip Droog.

If both RF3 and Newbie have been backing me up and actively aiding me, why treat them differently depending on how I flip?

Your answer makes no sense. This is because you came up with that strategy based on what scum needs to do next.

[Mathilda]

Neither of you are doing anything to help the town by continuing to just post previous quotes of yours to each other.

Droog is making sure his scum slip does not go unnoticed. I plan to help him.

[Mathilda]

the definition of scumslip must have changed

You have been caught out. You've advocated a strategy that only makes sense if you are scum. When pressed to justify it you are not able to. Instead you evade the question by asking pointless questions or trying to change the topic of conversation, such as this very post from you.

Specifically, you advocate interrogating RF3 if I flip town, but Newbie if I flip scum. The reason for interrogating both is the same (they're aiding me). Therefore you are not able to answer the question of why they should be treated differently.

In answer to your meaningless question about why I care, this is the whole point of playing the game. To find scum. I have to demonstrate to other people that you are scum. I have done that.

#665 is you distancing yourself from your scum buddies and trying to get RF3 lynched in the process.

[Mathilda]

[Mathilda]

As I said. I'm not going to bother defending myself any more. I'm only interested in flushing out the third goon.

The face palm comes from people ignoring Droog here. If Droog is town then he's honestly the most atrocious player that I have

ever

come across and should be policy lynched on sight. It would take real skill to play that badly.

If town don't act on Droog's slip then I might as well hammer myself because town won't deserve to win.

[Mathilda]

@Pip. Trying to milk towncred for not lynching Lowell? RF3 deserves the towncred. I posted that I was prepared to hammer Lowell at one point. My whole point about the Lowell wagon is that it made you and Droog look scummy and that's just been glossed over. Now you're trying to to bulldoze another mislynch and you and Droog has been preparing for future mislynches after that.

[Mathilda]

Droog, you may have been asking me for specifics about who I thought was scum on the lynch wagon but you did not acknowledge the point that I was making. That it is very unlikely that there wouldn't be scum on that wagon, especially in this game where it is difficult to get any lynch whatsoever.

But again, I am repeating myself with you. I have said this several times already.

[Mathilda]

My whole point about the Lowell wagon is that it made you and Droog look scummy

this seems different from what you said before
before you said that there had to be scum on the wagon
and implied it was me and spip

now you're saying that the way we were on the wagon itself
looks scummy

please explain

It made you and Pip look scummy by denying the possibility of there being scum on it.

How many times do I have to repeat myself?

[Mathilda]

At this point it's clear that you purposely stayed off the Lowell wagon so that you could call people scummy just for pushing it without worrying about accusations of hypocrisy.

Already countered this point several times now. This game isn't the kind of game where scum can sit back and let town death tunnel each other. It's been to quiet and town have been too lethargic. Staying off the wagon only works when you can be sure that the wagon is going to happen. People were accusing me of causing a no-lynch.

And I note your Lols and derogative tone, repeated use of the word flail. Definitely a sign that you're trying to paint a picture rather than properly debate. Typical scum tactic.

[Mathilda]

To the scum team, who are you going to get to hammer me then? You don't have the votes because Burning Earth and Scorpious are absent and you've already admitted that you want to lynch Newbie so you're not exactly inviting her to make sure that she's next in line. Droog has already mentioned Karnage as someone who should be examined in more detail (read wagoned)

If RF3, me and Newbie were a scum team then we certainly wouldn't be making ourselves so opposed to the majority of opinion here and daring to question lynch wagons. It would just take one of us to be lynched and flip scum for the others to be lynched as well.

Even if there is no lynch then tonight you'll have to target a potential PGO, either someone who supports you or kill one of us and show that your reads are wrong.

You've already started trying to shift suspicion onto RF3 (earlier than you would have wanted). Are you going to wait for replacements for Burning Earth and Scorpious or are you going to try backtracking now?

[Mathilda]

itlepip, you and Droog are hiding within a majority. Big difference. That was why I said "certainly wouldn't be making ourselves so opposed to the majority of opinion here and daring to question lynch wagons"

[Mathilda]

It made you and Pip look scummy by denying the possibility of there being scum on it.

i never denied the possibility

You read everyone on that wagon as town.

Ok so here's my problem
Can someone please push a case
Or a breakdown
I don't see a compelling case for anyone
Onthat wagon

And I think the only case has been made against me
Since I started the wagon
I can't be the scum who made it popular

Loweell wagon

Me -- not seeing any cases to respond to
Scorpio - I forgot he existed will look into
RF3 (the other heads) -- y'all need a
heart to heart before I can look into that
Spip __ Imy leaning more and more town on him
Karnak -- dunno but I liked his entrance

Scorp'so vote is from rvs
He doesn't count as part of the wagon

No
It's large enough where it probably has scum

But who?

I'm not seeing any cases
Against anyone on the wagon

Which is why I'm going through it myself

Reads on the loweell wagon

Town

Droog
Spip
Karnage

Null

Scorp
Rc

I don't think it's Karnage or spip
Unless loweell is town

[Mathilda]

I've said my piece

Am i to take this to mean you have no intent what so ever to answer:

Agreed. People are just repeating the same arguments and ignoring any responses as if they were never made. Trow and Droog are guilty of this.

Care to back this up?
What did i ignore, what response did you make that i pretended weren't there?

Sorry about that. I missed this because I've stopped reading your posts.

I explained several times now that my case against Droog and Something Pip stemmed from them denying the possibility that there were scum on the Lowell wagon and all their scum reads being people who were not on it. Yet you kept ignoring this and kept demanding that I made a case against Pip.

[Mathilda]

I didn't say I was willing to break the rules, I said that it would be the 'correct play'.

Egg remains scum and is just pissed off at the prospect of me having potentially been confirmed as town and my push justified.

I'm done here. Egg lynch best lynch!
Peace out Mathilda, you're awesome.

Same. It has truly been a pleasure fighting scum with you RC.

[Mathilda]

What I am about to do is, whether you agree with it or not, is intended to play to my win condition. I am town. Town needs to generate information. That information has been generated but is being buried under noise from scum who keep repeating the same arguments and not listening to responses. I don't want it buried any more. Scum have revealed themselves by voting for me and still not managed to get enough votes because of inactive players.

I can do this because I used my PGO last night therefore I am now no longer anything other than a vanilla townie. Therefore my role now is expendable.

I want you to remember these things:

Droog advocated focusing on RF3 if I flip town, but Newbie if I flip scum. Yet he gave the same reason for both that they were aiding me and backing me up. Yet he could not explain why they should be treated different. If Droog was town then he'd be thinking that if I flip scum then he should tunnel both Newbie and RF3, and look elsewhere if I flip town. But what he did was lay out optimal scum strategy. He knows that I will flip town so wants to seed people with the idea that somehow this means that RF3 needs to be lynched next. Newbie has always been close to being lynched anyway so she would likely be the next target anyway. Droog would only advocate this if he was scum. He was thinking about scum needs to do next and not what town needs to do. This is why it is a scum slip.

My scum reads are Droog, Something Pip, and either Egg or Trow. I was wondering about Karnage also being scum when he moved onto my lynch wagon when I goaded him to, but overall I am going to revert back to my town lean on him.

Both Droog and Something Pip have deliberately twisted what people have said to make them look suspicious. You can read their posts and wonder how they misunderstood what was said so badly.

I am no longer at L-1 so it will be interesting to see who jumps back on my wagon to hammer me. Please do not let this be a waste because town will lose otherwise.

VOTE: Mathilda

[Mathilda]

So especially given his 'fuck everyone in this game, fuck the game itself, fuck even those who share my slot' double-down on faked-townie-outrage (and blatant refusal to answer WHY).
What do you think about his recent actions?

I completely understand where he is coming from and feel the same way.

[Mathilda]

If Mathilda flips town I have a few choice words for her postgame.
-the smart head

And if you flip town, prepare to get some back!

[Mathilda]

Just remember who bulldozed two mislynches. Don't let them do any more.

[Mathilda]

why do you think she was scum?

I can't even approach thinking that she's scum no matter what mental gymnastics I pull.

Nobody ever once made a proper case against me. They just expected me to do all the defending and make cases on other people no matter how much I was scum hunting. And whatever I said, confirmation bias kicked in.

As for Droog, I'll never play with him again. I can say in all honesty that he is the worst townie that ever I have ever had the misfortune to play with, by a long shot. No one else even comes close. If anyone else played town even a bit like him then they would get insta-lynched. It means that there is no way to determine Droog's alignment. Nor is he helpful in finding out who is scum even when he is town.

Trow was hunting scum but to be honest I couldn't understand what he was saying most of the time. My eyes sort of glazed over whenever I tried reading his disjointed terse stream of consciousness. It's why I didn't really answer his questions most of the time. I am sure he probably made some good points though.

Well done to Mafia, you played well and well done RC for spotting Egg and resisting town's confirmation bias.

[Mathilda]

not the way she argued me

When I was just copying and pasting to you, I was just doing what you were doing. But somehow everyone accepts it from you.

[Mathilda]

RC: do you know who shared the opinion (you managed to convince) Mathilda to let herself be lynched, rather than trying to actually talk to town?
Mathilda.
Or did you forget, she ended up self-voting?

RC didn't convince me to let myself get lynched. Nowhere did he even suggest it. It was solely my own decision and when RC bugged out I knew that I no longer cared enough to continue by myself.

This game was really, really odd. All the normal expectations of how Mafia should be played were turned on their head. Everything that was acceptable to do as a townie in any other game on this forum was deemed scummy (e.g being unsure whether we were lynching the right person or questioning whether scum was on the lynch wagon), and things that would get people lynched were shrugged off (i.e. Droog's entire play such as copying and pasting irrelevant responses, not making a case, not being able to explain your reads or why you stated something, or being caught out in a mistake or lie).

[Mathilda]

Other than defending karnage by means of misrepresentation and twisting my

'can you explain how pips case can be anything other than fake, because they refuse'

-question into an accusation. (because that was a genuine question, true it would not have surprised me to receive an answer that would hint at the entire defense being fake as well, but i was

'genuinely interested in the answers'

), there might have been an instance (maybe 2) of

'aren't you reading or are you mudslinging'

(which in the karnage-case

'revotes are(n't) inherently anti-town'

or specifically the

'not a new read'

-counter, when the other examples were obviously not new either(showing i didn't intent to claim they were new), i fully stand by)

I mean, if i recall correctly, i didn't even imply ill-intent when you twisted my 3-line-story about why

'

'fake outrage at being bussed'

might be a good scum tactic'

, into a call to lynch titus(who was considered top-townread by most), for 2 consecutive posts (which took A LOT of constraint btw, as it did really feel you were fishing for that remark, just to add it to exactly this list (covered by the whole 'aware bias' thing) )

As here: a post per person addressed, there i can see the benefit of.
But arbitrary padding the post-count *shudder*, feels like

'trying to appear more active'

i'll try to pull the

'replace with links'

-approach even further, but they didn't seem to do much this game

One thing that I found difficult to follow was your use of pasting in whole sentences but putting them in quotes and referring them as adjectives. If you could stop that then it would help tremendously. Regardless of your win condition, it helps you to communicate as clearly and effectively as possible so people can consider what you are saying rather than how you are saying it.

Nesting parentheses or quotes also makes things far more difficult to parse.