Open 624 Fire and Ice - Fire Mafia Wins

[Supreme Overlord]

I agree with Viva - Shinobi's entrance was surprising to me.
VOTE: Shinobi

Cobalting - I assume those sets are the grouping/ties between players you've noticed so far?

[Supreme Overlord]

This is going to be a fun setup trying to find scum who are actively trying to find scum (literally just town intentions).

I assume the difference will be scum are just looking for one scum team, while town are looking for both.

I'm not quite sure what that will look like - I guess those who have played multi-faction games before will point out specific tells as they come up.

[Supreme Overlord]

I don't have a lot of time, but
VOTE: Viva
What's with so much vote-switching?

If you don't want to switch, please explain why.

I agreed with most of Masquerade's post - more 'Shinobi is uncomfortable playing scum' than 'trying to avoid being suspected' though.

Cobalting, what did you mean by:

meta meta meta meta meta meta meta meta

[Supreme Overlord]

Was supposed to be like "meta schmeta".


I hate meta.

-pc

Who was using meta, and where?

My opinion is that correct play in multiball is to go for the players who are both likely to be scum and unlikely to be cross killed; Shinobi doesn't exactly fit what I'm looking for in a day 1 lynch.

I don't know about this. And like beeboy said saying so out loud isn't a good idea. Sure, ideally we lynch scum and then they cross-kill themselves, but that relies heavily on us being able to guess the scum kill. It also provides a perfect opportunity to be like 'yes they're scum but let's lynch someone else' and avoid bussing.

That said:

My opinion is that correct play in multiball is to go for the players who are both likely to be scum and unlikely to be cross killed;

My opinion is that we should keep what we are looking for to ourselves so people don't try and avoid doing it.

beeboy, how are scum supposed to benefit from knowing to be 'not likely to be scum' and 'likely to be cross-killed'?

I think Cobalting needs to be forced to explain their reads lists right now.

Let's be honest that was definitely a reactions list.

I initially read this as 'they're not real reads because they're only early game reactions'. But it seems you meant Cobalting was only

looking

for reactions. Why are you trying to discredit these as legitimate reads?

Droog, if beeboy is your townread does that mean you're concluding he's town or scum (for projecting a townie vibe)?

Snarky is right that townleans from Something Smart aren't terribly helpful. However, Snarky, can you give your reads at this point?

My only real scumlean is viva; possibly cobalting as well. Still thinking about Shinobi and droog, and waiting on ika and BEF.

Why Cobalting? You haven't mentioned them yet.

Thinking scum are in Viva, Shinobi, beeboy at the moment.

[Supreme Overlord]

Then what are your reads, PC? I don't know what your policy is regarding acting as different heads, but if you can't speak for Ranger you should be able to speak for yourself.

[Supreme Overlord]

Answer to poll in lieu of TL;DR:
Viva I'm voting; his votes have no substance. There's something odd about his reaction to the wagon, too; though I can't quite pin it down. It's seems like he's only just now reacting to it - I thought he'd accepted my vote as 'nothing to worry about'; now it's the worst vote on the wagon. L-4 also seems a bit early to be worried to the extent of 'I don't trust the votes on me at all'.
Cobalting I was reading as townish; seemed pretty transparent. Last couple of posts have annoyed me, though (though they still could potentially be explained away) - I don't know what meta they were referring to, and the refusal/inability to explain reads is not helpful. Pending.

Then what are your reads, PC? I don't know what your policy is regarding acting as different heads, but if you can't speak for Ranger you should be able to speak for yourself.

I mean, he said he would get back to you and their discussion may either change a read or may lead to some reasons emerging on the thread. What's wrong with checking where your other head's at with their thinking?

Nothing in principle. But we're getting nothing from Ranger, and PC can't explain Ranger's reads, so I was hoping to get

something

from that slot.

scum arent just trying to look townie but also scumhunt
so the best way for town to get noted
is not just to scumhunt
its hard to put into words what im feeling

I misinterpreted what you said; I thought you meant

scum

are trying to put forward a townie vibe. But ... aren't they? Everyone is scumhunting legitimately, sure. But scum don't want to be nightkilled, and town want to ... appear town - so isn't it all kind of the same?

testing a theory
VOTE: viva

What theory, exactly?

FWIW, I'm willing to give droog the benefit of the doubt here, at least for a bit (given it's to 'test a theory' and not just presented without reason). After the fact though, I would like a full explanation of what the theory was and how voting Viva tested it.

Because it was an obvious answer.

So I didn't check the vc when I asked that. It's still a legitimate question, and hardly my only one.

What are you getting at here? You asked the questions of Aristo, beeboy answered the 'obvious' one, so there's still a couple for Aristo to answer for himself, right?

VOTE: Supreme Overlord

Currently the worst vote on me, but further response from the other voters may change this.

Could you elaborate on how you came to the conclusion that mine was the 'worst vote' on you? (You didn't seem to think so at the time.)

VOTE: Cobalting

Was I supposed to be pressured by your vote? Because I saw it, noted it as something to respond to, kept scrolling, and realised that it didn't actually matter. What between post 149 and post 188 changed to make me more worthy of a vote than Cobalting (in your eyes), and then between 188 and post 192 to make you change back?

[Supreme Overlord]

im amazed how ppl have been ignoring me

I ... didn't really realise you were in the game, to be honest. We're had a bunch of people not participating; you didn't stand out to me among them. Have you been purposefully quiet to see if anyone would notice you? If so, why speak up now?

Need people to vote you to be interested, huh?
VOTE: ika
beeboy basically sums it up; coasting without participation is scummy if it's on purpose, and is anti-town regardless.


Viva, can you answer my question in post 197; give me your opinion on the three votes that [were] on you, particularly how and when you decided mine was the worst one.

There's a plethora of odd, unexplained scumreads on me that cropped up when I started to look like a likely lynch.

At what point were you a 'likely lynch'? Your wagon maxed out at L-4, so the last person to actually vote you did so at L-5.

[Supreme Overlord]

TL;DR: Probably scum are Viva (followed on from last time, no real update), ika; I'm disliking Cobalting more (could be playstyle, but I don't think it's a protown playstyle), I'm getting wary of beeboy with a couple of his contradictions. Shinobi started bad but I think has improved lately. Feeling alright about Silver, S_S, droog, Masq, Aristo; not much on Shadow or Snarky.


Viva la Gloria, why do you keep ignoring my questions?

To people saying things like 'ika always plays like this' - is it possible to get links to back that up?
Because all I've got from ika right now is a townread on Silver, I assume a scumread on Shinobi (given the vote), and maybe scum on beeboy. All without any explanation as to why.

And this also addresses Cobalting: I see giving reads without explanation (or doing anything, really) as scummy, because it allows scum to just say *anything*, and let other people fill in the gaps, and then just agree with it if it sounds good. Making it harder to be caught in contradictions.

So droog, please explain the purpose of your experiment vote on Viva, and what you got out of it.

i dont get how if i get everyones thoughts it makes it harder for me

Harder for *anyone else* to question you. It makes it easier for you, because you can pick and choose what to talk about, and rely more on other people's thoughts than having to provide your own.

Ika and Beeboy are probably both town.

Who is probably scum?

But we're getting nothing from Ranger, and PC can't explain Ranger's reads, so I was hoping to get something from that slot.

To the contrary, you

have

got something: my lists. Have you tried running through them and trying to figure them out? It's not that hard. What sparks the change in the list? At what post do I make the list? (For instance, my last post changed the positioning of ika and Masquerade, but I'm only now quoting this post, so clearly, something prior to page 8 caused the change.) And so on.

Fair enough; 'nothing' was an exaggeration. However - and I don't want to sound too lazy here - but I don't really feel like going through your ISO, played 'spot the difference' with your lists, then going back to the game pages to try to figure out what happened in between that caused

your

opinion to change.

For example, I would guess that something about droog's entrance made you think he was town - but to pin anything down would be just that, a guess. Maybe you agree that town are trying to project a towny vibe. Maybe it's because you agree that beeboy is town. Maybe it's that you agree that Shinobi was RVS trolling. And that's just three possibilities, with one read on one player. How am I supposed to pick the real one/s? Multiplied out by all your reads and all your players.
If you don't want to explain everything, maybe now that I've taken a stab at why you listed droog as town, you could explain your reasoning for that, at least?

I just don't understand why we can't know Ika's thoughts before Silverwolf posts it isn't like he is bound to his initial reads and isn't allowed to change them.

UNVOTE:

Ya something_smart and cobalting are both against this and they can't both be a potential Ika partner so I am going to wait for him to post.

Can you elaborate on what changed your mind? I agreed with your first post, and think it's still true by the time of your second; why back off? Also, I don't think Cobalting was 'against' anything on ika.

(I don't believe in meta)

This is a team based game too many told me it was town behavior so this is a matter of play styles not indicative.

So you don't believe in meta, but you do believe in peer pressure?

VOTE: cobalting
I can back the "explain your reads" sentiment.

This is a bad vote.

This

is a bad vote? How about ika's vote on Silver 2 posts up, after Silver had said she wasn't feeling well and would get to it tomorrow?

im being passive cus i wan to pour down gallons and gallos of WIFOM about me

What is the town motivation for that?

[Supreme Overlord]

beeboy, my questions to you were about ika, not Cobalting.

Cobalting, droog wasn't being townread at all at the point when you called him town. Why did you think so *at the time*?

[Supreme Overlord]

... For any particular reason?

[Supreme Overlord]

I don't have a lot of time but I'll weigh in with some quick notes:

I don't like Shinobi's unforced claim; however, the way that wagon grew was bad, particularly TheShadow and Cobalting's vote. (Shinobi's vote on Cobalting may have also been bad, but that doesn't invalidate Cobalting's vote also being bad.) I'll need to reread Shinobi in full.

Viva's reaction to Shinobi's claim was pretty good, though that doesn't mean he's right. I wish he'd interact with me instead of ignoring everything I say to him.

Snarky continues to throw out town reads instead of scum reads. If we're talking about voting inactives I'd suggest Snarky's a good spot as well.

I'll get to other stuff later.

[Supreme Overlord]

I'm mega tired so forgive any incoherency.

I don't think Shinobi is a good lynch. His reads list looks honest. One question, though: Shinobi, I'm literally the only person you left off your list. Why?
Actually, I don't think you've mentioned me at all. What the heck, man?

That's exactly what I needed from you Shinobi but you are wrong about ika. His play has changed a lot. I have a hydra with him. It's different now. I guarantee it.

Can you elaborate on this? You last said:

ika is someone I should of figured out by now and it troubles me he's null. He needs to interact with me personally instead of poke me with a stick to piss me off.

But since the ika wagon doesn't appear to be going anywhere, I want to VOTE: SnarkySnowman. He's done zero scumhunting (which admittedly is odd in multi-faction where everyone can legitimately scumhunt, but I think doing none at all is scummy regardless of the game). He's exclusively given out townreads (for no reasons given), even though he apparently knows to ask for scumleans. I don't like his vehement opposition (but no real defence) of the Shinobi lynch, with no apparent desire to actually look at the reasons people had already given.

Were you hoping for a fast hammer and then if Shinobi flipped town the questioning his wagon would look good on you?

Basically this. Masq, do you want to hop onto Snarky? Though if now is the time to push on ika don't take my unvoting as discouragement.

[Supreme Overlord]

Why is he obsessed with the presence or absence of him in Shinobi's ISO unless he's scum?

You don't think it's curious that in listing everyone in the game, Shinobi left someone off?

Also, once again, your vote on me means very little.

You, Cobalting, or Supreme Overlord. Preferably Cobalting, though.

People might listen to you more if you actually gave reasons for what you say.

This.

I agree entirely with SilverWolf's summary in post 501. Unforced claim in particular is bad. Since it doesn't appear anyone wants to look at Snarky either, I'll VOTE: TheShadow.

L-1.

[Supreme Overlord]

So much for:

He also does not hammer willy nilly anymore either and if he tries that shit, he knows he'll have to deal with me when the game is over and it won't be pretty.

[Supreme Overlord]

VOTE: Vote: ika
I wasn't expecting a hammer so soon after my vote at L-1, and going through ika's ISO it doesn't look like he'd mentioned The Shadow at all prior to that point. I don't read SilverWolf as buddying ika; it seems fairly clear to me that they just know each other out of game. If they're scumreading each other they could both be scum, but I'm inclined to read SilverWolf as town.

VOTE: Supreme Overlord

This should have been yesterday's lynch.

This

Where's your vote then?

This.
Also Snarky, why? You mentioned me all of once yesterday.


@SilverWolf: anything in particular, or my posts just 'look like scum'?

[Supreme Overlord]

Didn't expect a hammer? From ika?

I'll quote it again:

He also does not hammer willy nilly anymore either and if he tries that shit, he knows he'll have to deal with me when the game is over and it won't be pretty.

Why should I have expected a hammer? ika had made no indication that he thought Shadow was scum, and had made no indication that L-2 was pseudo-L-1.

And why are you so concerned with who has or hasn't mentioned whom? Feels like manufacturing reasons.

...If people aren't giving out reads, that's scummy - or at least, helpful to scum. Public reads mean you're somewhat locked into an opinion and can't just change on a whim or go with the flow (without being called out for it), and that when you die everyone else has something to work with. So if not giving reads is bad, then not mentioning people at all is

even worse

, since I have no idea what they're thinking. And in this specific case, had no idea ika was going to hammer.


The other thing is, I think it's better to give out scum reads than town reads (it's good to

have

town reads; they're just less valuable to give out). I thought Snarky had a similar opinion, given these pair of posts:

I have decent townleans on beeboy and masquerade.
Slight townleans on shadow, supreme, snarky and aristo.
Not sure about the rest.

What about scumleans?

But then the rest of Snarky's ISO is just giving town reads (without any reasoning) until the end of the day with some lynch alternatives for Shinobi (also without reasoning).

So Snarky: do you really think it's important to give scum reads as you indicated in 151? And if so, why didn't you give any for almost the entirety of Day 1?

[Supreme Overlord]

1. Even if you weren't expecting a hammer, didn't you want one? You put him at L-1 and he had already claimed, so why would you vote him for doing something that you knowingly made possible?

Yes, I wanted one - and I was expecting one from

Masq

who I thought would end the day when we were all good and ready. It was the way in which ika did it which was scummy, rather than the action of the hammer itself (someone was going to do it). It was unannounced, unprepared for, and seemed opportunistic.

2. A lot of people have not mentioned others and it doesn't mean that they can't form opinions on them. You are not entitled to whine about every accusation that you didn't see coming a mile away. In fact, setting up future lynches is something scum do, whereas town are more likely to have sudden changes of opinion.

My problem is not with forming opinions or changing minds. My problem is with doing so without leaving a clear and transparent record of thought processes. Maybe I'm optimistic, but I expect town to be internally consistent, with changes that make sense; while scum are making

something

up and therefore will sometimes make a move without real justification. If someone just leaves it and announces an opinion out of nowhere, there's no way to trace the though process and spot the contradiction, if it exists.

Ah right. VOTE: Supreme Overlord for L-2

Okay ...
Any chance of responding to this:

The other thing is, I think it's better to give out scum reads than town reads (it's good to

have

town reads; they're just less valuable to give out). I thought Snarky had a similar opinion, given these pair of posts:

I have decent townleans on beeboy and masquerade.
Slight townleans on shadow, supreme, snarky and aristo.
Not sure about the rest.

What about scumleans?

But then the rest of Snarky's ISO is just giving town reads (without any reasoning) until the end of the day with some lynch alternatives for Shinobi (also without reasoning).

So Snarky: do you really think it's important to give scum reads as you indicated in 151? And if so, why didn't you give any for almost the entirety of Day 1?

[Supreme Overlord]

SO is an obvious scumfuck and the Cobalting kill proves it so bye.

Rude. Also; what?

Like even if you look at his last post he gets bogged into a sort of IIOA; he's discussing the meta of how reads form instead of actually having them. Which is really scummy.

I don't know if you noticed, but I was responding to a question in that post. Not really sure how to do that without explaining my philosophy ...

He said it himself that he wanted Shadow hammered...
While he's voting ika for hammering...

Are you wilfully ignoring the context I've explained twice now?


L-1? Let's have a look at the votes on my wagon:

VOTE: Supreme Overlord

This should have been yesterday's lynch.

Much better thanks.

<3

Also.................

VOTE: Supreme Overlord

575 was bad. Didn't expect a hammer? From ika? You put Shadow at L-1 anyway (which was also bad)!
And why are you so concerned with who has or hasn't mentioned whom? Feels like manufacturing reasons.
The whole Shadow wagon was bad. Viva's and SO's votes were the worst. I get the feeling that Viva and Shinobi are opposing scum, and SO could be partners with either. Plus this wagon is more likely to go somewhere than Shinobi's.
VOTE: Supreme Overlord

Ah right. VOTE: Supreme Overlord for L-2

I know we have 10 days and I want to give Fire time to catch up, but I totally agree with this lynch on a reread.

All of their questions seem to be at the game rather than in the game. Which is weird I know, my explanations suck.

Aaand I got called in to work while typing. Basically, they feel off and unengaged and are probably scum.

VOTE: SO

This is L-1

Lots of convincing cases there. I've responded to Something Smart, and I don't know there's much I

can

respond to about the others.
I won't claim until intent to hammer; I've gone three hours without ika hammering and I don't think he was going to anyway.

[Supreme Overlord]

Not really? Like, what said should do the opposite of that unless he's scum. If he wants to declare intent that's fine. I also think SO should just go ahead and claim at this point.

Thanks, but I'll wait for someone who's not on the wagon to ask.

also after SO claim im hammering him if hes not doc

So you're scumreading me now? Why? Just because of my vote on you?

Are you townreading SO?

Not really? the vote on me is really crappy

I can't see any other reason in your ISO.

Again, though which posts look scummy to you?

Can I ask this of you, SilverWolf? Which of my posts are looking scummy to you? You're not giving me a lot to work with here.


Something_Smart, SilverWolf is holding someone at L-1, but isn't unvoting even though she doesn't want a hammer. Does this seem scummy to you; and if not, what's the difference?

[Supreme Overlord]

Thanks all for the game, especially texcat for modding, and Something_Smart for being a great partner (certainly the strength of our team). I had hope, I believed ... but it was an entertaining game to read regardless.