Mini 1782 Game Over

[Clumsy]

Age does matter. It's another variable that can lead to conclusions about actions of people. As much as we like to say so, age, gender, all play a part. A small part, but a part.

That said, I'm against policy lynching Kain. Very against it actually. I don't like policy lynches in general. As well as the fact that it seems like Kain is trying to improve their play. If policy lynches happen again and again, how does one improve? A chance must be given, a possibility of potential must be made possible. I'm not everyone here, but I will not put my vote in for Kain as a policy lynch.

Friendly Co-Mod Dier posts here to remind himself to track this thread.

FOS: Dier

Only scum talks in third person!

On a serious note, 12 person games are usually 3 scum right? Newbies are 9 with 2. And no I'm not joking.

A lot of names I've seen around from reading other games. Excited to be in here with you! Happy Scum-hunting!

[Clumsy]

Friendly Co-Mod Dier posts here to remind himself to track this thread.

Thank you. Sorry for a stupid question. >_<

And yes I thought it was serious. Was it RC?

[Clumsy]

Clumsy, I feel that your name should have a 'b' in it.

You can follow the wise precedent set by such words as "bomb" and "crumb".

It's probably not too late to create an account called Clumbsy.

If I did this, I'd read anyone saying my name like they had a really nasely cold.

[Clumsy]

@mhsmith: Thanks for the input.

pre-unvote:

Did anyone else read RC's 62 as him faking a town-slip?

Anyone else?

I don't think so? That whole exchange was just weird and I don't know what to get from it.

[Clumsy]

@APF: Absolutly. Also, RC is obv scum for reasons too secret for me to publicly explain.

how the fuck can someone be obviously scum in a way too secret to be explained.

I meant to address this earlier too. If you do have some magic way of knowing that, you'll have to tell us this "secret" reason or you won't be getting those votes.

[Clumsy]

VOTE: roshar

This guy is barely holding it together and we've just started. Come do this with me and watch this poor rube flail. His ISO reeks of careful scum... already, somehow.

Also clumsy's ham-handed "omg how many scum are there guyz" is the worst fake-townslip I've seen in a while. which is saying something.

maverick is town.

-_- If you would care to look at my game history, I only have 2 completed games here. Both of them Newbie games. 9 players, 2 scum. Haven't been in a 12 person game. I thought there would be 3 scum, but I wanted to make sure so I didn't have any errors in logic. The fact that you think it's a ham handed fake townslip is one of the more egotistical things I've seen in a while. Which is saying something.

@APF: Absolutly. Also, RC is obv scum for reasons too secret for me to publicly explain.

Apf, nos, clumsy: is there a reason why you thought this post was serious?

Yes, two reasons. I thought you were serious because of the timing of the post. It was right after Frozen/RC's big... thing. I thought you picked up on something there. I don't know either of these players, so I figured there was a tell you had seen. Second, it had seemed that a lot of us were past RVS. I had no reason to think it -wasn't- serious. But I take it that it was a joke?

It's actually 13 players.
~Ircher

[Clumsy]

I'm not sure what to make of Roshar or APF. I'm gonna have to re-read through things with them, but I do feel like there might be something there.

[Clumsy]

Ugh, I had a post written up yesterday and never posted it. Give me a few to catch up and remake what I can remember from before.

[Clumsy]

Will wait for your re-reading, clumsy.

I'm willing to wait for Jake for D1. Don't see the big deal everyone is making because jake has effectively set the spot light on himself. The lurking is much more scary.

I'm not sure what to make of Roshar or APF. I'm gonna have to re-read through things with them, but I do feel like there might be something there.

How about re-read everyone's posts and come to an independent conclusion? Not sure why reading it the first time didn't give you an adequate idea, but jumping on APF and I b/c we're the ones being discussed is really opportunistic and looks like you want to blend in.

Vote: Clumsy

What caused the tone shift here Roshar? You went from patient to aggressive. When I said that, I meant that I would read things and also read specifically what happened with you guys.

Also, Nosferatu, you're a Kat Von D lipstick shade. It's almost always sold out though, reaaally frustrating

But other than that, I gotta agree with mhs that Nos's case has no substance. And he's trying really hard to keep it up.

I also agree with this:

but also could just be a way to play the "scum wouldn't be this blatant" game

I've seen it done before by scum in the one other game I've played on mafiascum.

@APF no worries. I'm glad the lip stick reference sorted things out.

I have no idea what the lipstick thing is. Is it something that should be explained?
I agree on the second part though, nothing is too scummy for scum.

At first, I had the impression that Maverick was just vote hopping to whatever looked good repeatedly. Going with the flow. After going back and ISOing though, it's not true. Decent vibes from this so far. Lean town.

Wrt jake, I find myself ever more frustrated with trying to get him to open up at all. It feels like pulling teeth and it really shouldn't. I owe him a meta dive (not ASAP but def. by this weekend) to see if he's always super closed, if he often jumps in with "ok I found the scum guys" type posts representing theories he hasn't fully thought through or came down on one side and just ignored other plausible explanations. But my gut is saying that I'll probably see similar behavior from him in either alignment, and that he's just going to live perpetually in the null zone by choice, because that's where he wants to be.

It's the sort of behavior that IMO makes the game less pleasant, regardless of his alignment. And there's a post game rant that I'll probably go on about why I dislike this behavior so much. But if you want me to give you a strong alignment read on him, I can't. Maybe he'll start to open up and let him be read one way or the other. I hope he does. But I suspect he won't, and that further efforts to get much out of him are likely to be fruitless. Maybe I'll change my mind on that going forward, or maybe someone else will do a better job getting something substantive out of him. But at least right now, I don't know what to make of his alignment, and I'm not optimistic that I'll get much of a better read any time soon. Sorry for not being able to give you a better or more definitive answer, but that's where I am on him right now.

This is exactly what I was thinking, worded better than I would have.

can we policy lynch kaintepes?

It's not about any

pushing

, it's about the way he's talking like an idiot suggesting that people are confscum on the second page.
Most games that I've lost as town have been either due to tunnelers who can't reconsider things or to scum disguising themselves as tunnelers and getting away with it.
I'm going to policy lynch anyone who does that shit.

VOTE: JFSF

Not dealing with someone with that attitude, regardless of alignment.

Do you plan on actually trying to find scum, or are you just going to suggest policy lynches the entire game?

VOTE: Shadow

This is scum I'm pretty sure.

I have my own feelings on this, but I want to hear why you think it's scum first RC. I'll explain my side after.

[Clumsy]

or I could be town who doesn't care who you vote for

The issue is that you should care. It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong if you can't get people to agree with you. If you have a case, make it.

[Clumsy]

I... think we need to wait Roshar. The intent and claim and whatever is fine, but with all these replacements I think we need to wait on everyone to get in here before a lynch.

[Clumsy]

If anything, a hammer here with so many people absent is incredibly scummy and opportunistic. We should have discussion, especially with new faces coming in, no?

[Clumsy]

Looking back, I think we had 5. So 2 short, but still pretty close. The VC you posted was before the flood of votes coming in.

[Clumsy]

And I'll faph all I want to thank you very much. I enjoy my Faphing.

[Clumsy]

So... I guess for now we wait?

[Clumsy]

I think the whole thread needs hugs.

[Clumsy]

Rude.

I really want to hear from all the replacements. Fresh views and discussions will help I think, and we have plenty of time.

@MOD: I will be out of town and V/LA from Friday to Sunday next weekend (April 15th-17th).

[Clumsy]

I think it was about 828. I think the reasoning was that the mod wouldn't interfere if Jake were pressuring scum. I'm not entirely sure I agree with this, just because that really was just too much. It's a game. And I'm not really into this meta reading of the game. Breaks the spirit of the game in my opinion.

[Clumsy]

But yes, re-reading everything while skipping over Jake's stuff is my plan of action too.

[Clumsy]

Hrm, let me rephrase. I dislike meta reading THE MOD in games like this. But I'm not in disagreement with you. If it was scum/scum, they wouldn't have replaced out I don't think. But I do think that it was NAI from the mod, because it was just behavior to far.

Basically, back to re-reading for me.

[Clumsy]

Ugh, yeah, I like it too unfortunately.

[Clumsy]

Ugh, yeah, I like it too unfortunately.

Unfortunately?

Yes, unfortunately to the first part because it's against me. I like it and think it's town even though it's against me.

[Clumsy]

Sorry, been busy. Catching up now, will have a response in a bit.

[Clumsy]

Whoa, come back to L-1. Well then. I'll make a bigger post, but real fast, @mh, if I'm going to be honest, I joined 3 games because I was excited and enjoying myself, and then work got busy at the same time. Lame, bad excuse, and doesn't make it okay. But yeah, that's why. Sincere apologies.

[Clumsy]

Did anyone else read RC's 62 as him faking a town-slip?

lol what the fuck no

^^ this is how I reacted to that. It looked really bad.

I didn't like this either, and I'm still confused as to what the supposed fake town-slip was. It kind of seems like a stretch from APF.

My eyes are throbbing as I read the frst 8 pages.


RC is kund of floating around, and that indicative of him being scummy. But Titus I feel much better about reading.
APF is kind of naughty too. Didnt like much he did.

He has been kind of quiet, which is odd because from the games I've read, he's usually pretty talkative, right? (Not that I can say much on this. >_<)

Just for clarity, is this saying Titus is a town-lean for you?

@Clumsy, first time I read it I was talking to frozen and had my attention there for the most part. Second re-read it felt like you were giving yourself time to look for reason to jump on an existent wagon.

@Clumsy, could you reply to this please? Some of this was in response to your 561

The lipstick thing helped APF get my gender right. And I couldn't help but think of it everytime I read Nosferatu.
Decent vibes on Maverick or myself? Also, did you end up ISOing pregame APF and myself? If so, was there, "something there"?

Oh. I wasn't sure if the lipstick thing was a reference or something I wasn't getting. Nevermind on that then.

That post was about Maverick. But now I'm back to on the fence with him. It's almost exclusively gut though. Something is bothering me about him, and I can't figure it out.

As for the ISO, I did look into it, but didn't find as much as I had hoped. I like your side of it more, but I could see a scum team between you with this used as distancing. What is interesting is that while you're pushing him pretty hard, you stay near the middle of his readlist. He looks kind of passive while under pressure for you, which pings me as somewhat scummy from my (limited) experience.

[Clumsy]

And I realize I'm scumreading Clumsy more than shaddow now.
VOTE: Clumsy

Could you explain why exactly? I can understand, because of my inactivity and the fact that others are thinking the same as you, but I'm wary of the runner up wagon jumping onto the leading wagon.

[Clumsy]

I'll +1 on the "Clumsy hasn't done much of anything at all" observations. I skimmed his ISO from prior newbie games
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=65431
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=64996
and he was a lot more aggressive and talkative in each. One was town and one was scum, so it's hardly certain, but the difference here is jarring, and I suspect it's because he's been trying to keep his head down among what's been, let's just say, some aggressive personalities. He hasn't been scum reading anyone, he hasn't been getting into the fray, he's been keeping his head down as much as he can.
There's even been stuff like:

I have my own feelings on this, but I want to hear why you think it's scum first RC. I'll explain my side after.

that never actually got returned to.

How do I explain this well... The best way I can think to explain my feelings here is that Shaddowez seems to be focused on beating people down than building up a case. It seems like a lot of discrediting is his priority. I don't know, maybe that's how he normally plays? It feels like if we're playing a game to get the highest stack of blocks, instead of building his up, he's toppling others down. That's why I have a big scum feeling from him. Make everyone discredited, and it's easier to sway others. I had this whole point better planned out in my head, but that was a week ago and not at 3 a.m.

[Clumsy]

If I'm hung, I want you guys to keep an eye on Maverick for me. Something really sits in the back of my mind with him. I could see a Roshar scum as well. It feels like she just wants a lynch. Could be wrong though, feels a little more genuine than usual.

A few things though. We still have like 6 days. That's a good chunk of time that discussion can happen, especially hearing from the replacements (but also from me and APF. >_<) I just don't want to rush through this lynch and put town behind headed into day 2. More can be done. If the consensus is still me after that, so be it. But I think at least waiting to hear from the replacements is a good idea.

I'll be on for just a little longer tonight, and I'll be on tomorrow morning (I'm gonna be real, probably gonna sleep in till 1 though). If I get an intent to hammer, I'll claim and all. Let me know of any questions you may have as well that I can answer for you.

[Clumsy]

What would you like to know Max?

[Clumsy]

VOTE: Clumsy

L-1

Let's get things moving.

Do you mean to a lynch, or is this a pressure vote?

Bottom of 958

I was willing to lynch. Still am. I don't buy him being busy. Every single post of his is a, "stay afloat" post. His scum reads are Mav is, "something is bothering me about him, and I can't figure it out". His read on myself is, "I could see a Roshar scum, seems like she just wants a lynch, but I could be wrong". Stop and look at the content he's actually provided in his recent posts. He has flung out a few, "I think these people may be scummy" but has zero content with which to back it up. My take? He's got nothing. It's really hard making cases at people when you know they're all town.

If you're a meta person, feel free to peruse my first game on the site. I think Smith linked it above, or you could find it on my profile. I was scum in my first game, and I had no problem making cases for or against people. I'm having a hard time reading people in this game though.

He looks kind of passive while under pressure for you, which pings me as somewhat scummy from my (limited) experience.

I was gonna say that passive swings both ways. But since you find it scummy to be passive under pressure, aren't you implicating yourself?

Meh. I suppose you may be right. I was talking more about not really pushing back or anything, but I'm not exactly pushing back hard either. I think that's a personality thing on me, but it could be for him too. Meh. Disregard my point on this then I guess.

Shaddowez seems to be focused on beating people down than building up a case. It seems like a lot of discrediting is his priority.

Speaking of discrediting, I don't recall seeing you mention any town reads. In your recent posts you've thrown shade at Maverick, myself, Shaddowz, APF, Pisskop.

No wait, the

ONLY

post you liked was from Maxous that you, "like and think it's town, even though it's against me".

So the only post you end up 'liking' you use to make you appear more town?

Not using it to make me look town. Just my thoughts on it. This is the first game I've played where I don't have any solid town reads. Which is really weird for me. I usually have one or two people at least that are sitting very high on the town ladder for me, but that's not really a thing this game. Max is probably my top townread at this point, but that's also Jake's slot, and I don't know what to make of that. Null on the recent replacements, nothing's really happened there yet.

Also, could you point out where I've thrown shade at Pisskop?

@Clumsy - when/why did your read on Maverick change? You said he's lean town in post 561.

My read changed with that post you mentioned. If I am being 100% honest, I have no logical reason for feeling that he may be scum. His play so far has been pretty good. But there's that gut feeling sitting there that I can't shake. I dunno, I could be wrong. Just getting my thoughts out there.

[Clumsy]

Sorry, just saw this, although a bit more information would be nice:

That post was about Maverick. But now I'm back to on the fence with him. It's almost exclusively gut though. Something is bothering me about him, and I can't figure it out.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and he was a lot more aggressive and talkative in each. One was town and one was scum, so it's hardly certain, but the difference here is jarring, and I suspect it's because he's been trying to keep his head down among what's been, let's just say, some aggressive personalities. He hasn't been scum reading anyone, he hasn't been getting into the fray, he's been keeping his head down as much as he can.

If he was chatty as town and scum, he could be posting less as town and scum? Interestingly, I get the impression that he's a bit non-committal in general which conflicts with the aggressive play you saw in his other games.

I wouldn't say I was aggressive per-say, but much more active yes. This is a good point. If I acted basically the same in both games, why is me acting different this time making me scum? Especially if how I played in my scum game led to a win? Why would I change that? Why am I scum instead of town, or a town PR trying to lay low?

Also, I've had a read through his ISO and come up with these:

-_- If you would care to look at my game history, I only have 2 completed games here. Both of them Newbie games. 9 players, 2 scum. Haven't been in a 12 person game. I thought there would be 3 scum, but I wanted to make sure so I didn't have any errors in logic. The fact that you think it's a ham handed fake townslip is one of the more egotistical things I've seen in a while. Which is saying something.

I read this as a firm response to Lowell saying he faked a townslip. But APF thinks he missed an opportunity to question Lowell further (post 964)

Maybe I did miss the opportunity. At the time I was annoyed, and I'm still learning how to push things well.

At first, I had the impression that Maverick was just vote hopping to whatever looked good repeatedly. Going with the flow. After going back and ISOing though, it's not true. Decent vibes from this so far. Lean town.

Town read on Maverick.

@APF - you interpreted these as empty words in post 964?

My eyes are throbbing as I read the frst 8 pages.


RC is kund of floating around, and that indicative of him being scummy. But Titus I feel much better about reading.
APF is kind of naughty too. Didnt like much he did.

He has been kind of quiet, which is odd because from the games I've read, he's usually pretty talkative, right? (Not that I can say much on this. >_<)

Just for clarity, is this saying Titus is a town-lean for you?

[my edit]

As for the ISO, I did look into it, but didn't find as much as I had hoped. I like your side of it more, but I could see a scum team between you with this used as distancing. What is interesting is that while you're pushing him pretty hard, you stay near the middle of his readlist. He looks kind of passive while under pressure for you, which pings me as somewhat scummy from my (limited) experience.

Asking pisskop for a concrete read/clarification. Attempted analysis of Roshar/APF ISO. (Fair enough that this was after being pressured.)

I'm way more convinced by my own argument for lynching Max

I like this post from Froot Loop. The only thing I could see bad about this post is the argument that she knows I'm town and wants to look good defending me if/when I flip, but meh, you could say that about anyone. This could also be bias because she's not trying to string me up today, but also meh. I think it brings up good points.

[Clumsy]

I suppose add Froot to the people I think are town.

[Clumsy]

I'm not sure what else I can do at this point to help this. I've been as honest as I can, and given what I have. I'd be wary of anyone jumping on my wagon in the middle, or anyone carefully staying away from it. I would still like the next 5 days to be used for the replacements to get in and get established before the lynch though.

Man, I can't believe I'm being dissed by a pair of dice. =(

[Clumsy]

That being said, I totally would have self hammered if I was scum to cut off the time for discussion because it's pretty obvious that this is going to happen.

[Clumsy]

Someone hammer, please.

Why are you in such a rush to end the discussion Lowell? Don't want the replacements to get caught up?

[Clumsy]

@Clumsy

If you're a meta person, feel free to peruse my first game on the site. I think Smith linked it above, or you could find it on my profile. I was scum in my first game, and I had no problem making cases for or against people. I'm having a hard time reading people in this game though.

Would you say the reason why there's little interaction from you is b/c you're having a hard time reading people, or being busy or little interest?
In terms of the pisskop read, I misunderstood your post with him. I thought you were addressing him, so scratch him off.

A little of both, but honestly mostly the former. In every other game I've played, by day 1, there's been a few people I checked off as town, a few I suspected as scum, and a few undecided. Even if I was totally wrong, I still had reads. I don't know if it's because of who is in here being hard for me to read, or the replacements ( both number of people making things confusing and slight apathy because of them) , or what, but I'm not getting very many reads. I'm letting town down and I feel bad for it, but I don't know how to fix it. I've read back over things, but have gotten nowhere. I've thought about replacing so someone could play my slot better, but at this point, that'd be shitty to you guys, the Mod, and the replacement who has to recover from this.

[Clumsy]

I feel like shit because I'm a liability at this point, and even if I don't get hung today, I have to try to turn this around and get into the game, otherwise I'm a mislynch opportunity later. I haven't had this level of no points/content/whatever so far in any game, and I feel really guilty about it. I could try to tell myself that -someone- has to be lynched day 1, and most of the time (I believe) it's a mislynch, so it's not a big deal. But I'm better than this, and I'm not just letting myself down in this game. I'm going to spend some time re-reading (AGAIN) and see if I can actually contribute something to this damn game, because even if I get lynched, I want to help somehow. It's just feeling futile at this point though.

[Clumsy]

Fuck it, I'm going to go page by page and comment on any post that looks interesting.

[Clumsy]

Page One.

can we policy lynch kaintepes?

Not exactly out of common behavior of outspoken RC from what I know, but very arguably anti-town. Either:

Puts us a lynch behind (and a day of discussion, if done early, which I'm feeling was the implication)
-or-
Reveals a PR super early in the game.

can we policy lynch kaintepes?

Well, clearly we CAN, the question is whether we SHOULD. Or whether it'd just be fun to do for the lulz I guess

Not 100% sure what to make of this, seems either jokey and early game stuff (NAI) or noncommital to see how others react to the idea before jumping on or condemning (scum action).

You can try, but the games he's been in so far show Kain to be adept at slipping out of the noose.

This can read as a scum trying to defuse and early lynch on his buddy without putting himself too far out there.

Spoiler: These seem like just good funny openers.

can we policy lynch kaintepes?

Well, clearly we CAN, the question is whether we SHOULD. Or whether it'd just be fun to do for the lulz I guess

Thanks, coach.

pre-vote smith

Come, sheeple.

Good idea.

pre-vote mhsmith0

Let's get him all the way up to L+5.

can we policy lynch kaintepes?

Well, clearly we CAN, the question is whether we SHOULD. Or whether it'd just be fun to do for the lulz I guess

Thanks, coach.

pre-vote smith

Come, sheeple.

Guess it's to... roll the dice

pre-vote Jake from State Farm

forced, apologetic, etc. gogogo

No, RC, Jake is obvtown.

2. No provable randomness! This especially includes dice tags!

Guess it's to... roll the dice

Yet another reason why this needs pre-rope.

That doesn't count!
~Ircher

[Clumsy]

Spoiler: Page Two. (going to start spoilering walls)

VOTE: APF

Sketchy as hell.

I think RC is still joking here? Maybe?

Lowell's avatar is dice. Then again if I have to explain the joke there is no joke . Also should have been "guess it's time to..."

The missing word threw me off for a minute, but I really hope I wasn't the only one that actually got it.

Shaddowez is hard-defending and RC's scrambling to put up a pre-counterwagon.

Looks like we've got our scum team, fellas.

The two quotes above this one are the ones before APF's post here. There's absolutely nothing there. I read this as still joking in early game.

/confirming

Also, I wouldn't policy lynch. I've played with young players (Isn't Kein 13?) and I'd usually only jump the wagon if 1)it's later in the game and we don't have any strong leads and 2) said player is bringing the game down 3) if lynching them would clear up a lot of info.

Shaddowez is hard-defending and RC's scrambling to put up a pre-counterwagon.

Looks like we've got our scum team, fellas.

But you're hard-defending.


@Plain farmer, how old are you if you don't mind me asking. Trying to put things in perspective.

Was this as more joking, or did you take them more seriously here? Actually, furthermore, WERE you being serious APF?

/confirming

Also, I wouldn't policy lynch. I've played with young players (Isn't Kein 13?) and I'd usually only jump the wagon if 1)it's later in the game and we don't have any strong leads and 2) said player is bringing the game down 3) if lynching them would clear up a lot of info.

Shaddowez is hard-defending and RC's scrambling to put up a pre-counterwagon.

Looks like we've got our scum team, fellas.

But you're hard-defending.


@Plain farmer, how old are you if you don't mind me asking. Trying to put things in perspective.

/confirming

What a bad post

so you say he is a bad player but needs to live till the end to be omitted? policy lynches should happen as fast as possible or they will be tools for scum to just end game. I hate policy lynches anyway so...

Why is age even mater?

Pre vote Roshar

I feel like this was the beginning to either a misunderstanding or mkaing you look bad via Strawman.

wrt the policy lynch debate, did people think RC was serious with that suggestion on Kain? I read that as a joke/reaction test.

Could be, I think we're having a lot of misreads one way or the other this game.

But you're hard-defending.

Are you referring to 16? All I was saying there is that you can try to PL Kain, but he might deflect it like a blaster bolt off a lightsabre.

@Plain farmer, how old are you if you don't mind me asking. Trying to put things in perspective.

Twice as old as Kain, apparently. Does this help?

APF, how much experience do you have in games with Kain? (doesn't really matter much anymore, but interested in how sure he is that it won't happen)

Clumsy, I feel that your name should have a 'b' in it.

You can follow the wise precedent set by such words as "bomb" and "crumb".

It's probably not too late to create an account called Clumbsy.

I feel like this is so blatant that it can't be true. Or can it?

Only to the extent that shaddowez was absolutely going to the mat for his bud, smith.

Only to the extent that shaddowez was absolutely going to the mat for his bud, smith.

Lowell's avatar is dice. Then again if I have to explain the joke there is no joke . Also should have been "guess it's time to..."

The missing word threw me off for a minute, but I really hope I wasn't the only one that actually got it.

??? do you consider that "going to the mat"?

Yeah, I was very confused about this too. The more of these posts that happen, the less I think it's still joking, and the more I think that it's grabbing at things that aren't there to make an associative or case.

Ah, I see.

Pre-Vote: A plain farmer

Two reasons 1) it's an over-the-top rebuttal for a very weak case on mhsmith 2) I see no real conviction behind it.

I'm mainly feeling the first one. As of page 2, my top scum-read would go to APF.

[Clumsy]

APS is just branching around the bushes

he basically called half of the playerlist scum right now ...

Not sure APS is scum just yet. May just be weird. I suppose there's a meta read worth digging into there, but I'm not going to bother tonight. Maybe sometime over the weekend.

I was thinking the same thing when writing my last post. Did you ever go look into that? I know you looked into mine.

Thank you! It's from my favorite book series, "The Stormlight Archive" by Brandon Sanderson. I highly recommend it

It starts with Mhsmith's post 15. Lowell finds it suspicious and votes for mhsmith. Plain farmer agree's and jumps on the wagon in post 20. He later adds post 24.


All in all, no case at all. What was interesting though was that The plain farmer commented right after mhs's 'suspicious' post, so he obviously read it, but only found it suspicious after Lowell called it out.

I like this. I like this a lot. Very good point, I think it's pretty indicative sometimes.

All in all, no case at all. What was interesting though was that The plain farmer commented right after mhs's 'suspicious' post, so he obviously read it, but only found it suspicious after Lowell called it out.

This reasoning is bad for the record.
It's pretty common to just not think it was bad until someone points out stuff you hadn't seen.
That said, still think APF is scum for other reasons.

What did Lowell even point out? All he said was "Thanks, Coach" and then voted him. Nothing was called out that wasn't seen. And what are these other reasons?
This is why I'm starting to dislike playing with RC. He has a "I'm the best and have everything figured out already, but I'm not going to tell anyone, but everyone should just believe me because I'm RC" thing going on. Not to say he isn't a good player. I'm sure he is. Doesn't mean it isn't frustrating or annoying.

no one is voting anyone. this is pre game.

and what are you even talking about those posts are clearly RVS.

I thought so too. But it's just... too weird.

-All this stuff that happened down here-

I get the impression that RC was being serious and genuine, that he thought he caught a slip from his friend. After things were explained (I think there's a little bit of a language barrier there?), it seems to have been dropped and went back to normal. If there was any hidden meanings in there, or crumbs, I didn't see them. But I'm really bad at picking up on those anyway.

[Clumsy]

Oops, forgot to spoiler. Sorry.

[Clumsy]

Spoiler: Page Four.

Did anyone else read RC's 62 as him faking a town-slip?

Except there's no townslip in #62?

I -still- don't get this townslip thing. At all. Seems like more pulling stuff out of thin air.

@APF: Absolutly. Also, RC is obv scum for reasons too secret for me to publicly explain.

Yeah, totally thought this was serious... My bad.

WHAT IS GOING ON????????????? HELLO,,

my name is KAIN TEPES,, I like to play TOWN OF SALEM,, i hope we can all KNOW EACH OTHER VERY WELL............!!!

VOTE: RADIANT COWBALLS

I just... I couldn't stay in a pissy mood while I read this. As much as I kind of want to wallow in bad moods when I have them, I just... I can't read this without smiling and laughing. Cowballs... -snicker-
That really helped my mood, thanks Kain.

APF's pushes feel really disingenuous and the page 2 declaring people confscum shit is just awful.
If he's town and this is actually his scumhunting then I think town is better off without him anyway.

I really don't think FA's scum atm.

I agree that if this is actual scum hunting and not a joke, it's pretty bad. Not necessarily scummy though. What I find interesting is that while this isn't calling for a policy lynch, it's somewhat implied. Saying town would be better off without APF is essentially implying that it would be an okay PL. Which is the second time PLs have come up (albeit indirectly on the second) from RC.

...

Heh. Cowballs.

[Clumsy]

Spoiler: Page Five.

APF's pushes feel really disingenuous and the page 2 declaring people confscum shit is just awful.

If he's town and this is actually his scumhunting then I think town is better off without him anyway.

I really don't think FA's scum atm.

(my bold)

This is super weak. I haven't read APF's posts as close to a push, I agree with Roshar in 44 but that's why I'm basically disregarding what APF's saying. It doesn't seem to be meant to be taken seriously.

I'm more worried about the pushes against APF, particularly RC but also Roshar.

Yeah, pretty much my thoughts. Do you still feel this way Froot?

APF's pushes feel really disingenuous and the page 2 declaring people confscum shit is just awful.

If he's town and this is actually his scumhunting then I think town is better off without him anyway.

I really don't think FA's scum atm.

(my bold)

This is super weak. I haven't read APF's posts as close to a push, I agree with Roshar in 44 but that's why I'm basically disregarding what APF's saying. It doesn't seem to be meant to be taken seriously.

I'm more worried about the pushes against APF, particularly RC but also Roshar.

It's not about any

pushing

, it's about the way he's talking like an idiot suggesting that people are confscum on the second page.
Most games that I've lost as town have been either due to tunnelers who can't reconsider things or to scum disguising themselves as tunnelers and getting away with it.
I'm going to policy lynch anyone who does that shit.

So I was right about implying a PL. Interesting.

You were confident that he is scum

Now your saying your suggesting a policy on him ?

Ooh, this is a nice catch by FA I think. If he were confident that he was scum... That wouldn't be a policy lynch, would it? It would be a normal lynch, under suspicion of being scum. But if you were to know that they were town (by being the informed minority, for instance) then it would be a policy lynch... Wouldn't it? I think FA is onto something here.

I'm pretty sure APF is scum and it's only page 2.

I'm saying that being way too certain about reads is a scumtell and if they're not scum they're not people you want to have around.

In this instance I think that APF is scum.

Is this... implicating himself? Maybe not, because he seems to have a reason... but yeah.

can we policy lynch kaintepes?

Well, clearly we CAN, the question is whether we SHOULD. Or whether it'd just be fun to do for the lulz I guess

Thanks, coach.

pre-vote smith

Come, sheeple.

whats the case here?

Probably something about coaching. I'll let Lowell explain it.

"Probably"? Just probably? So you don't know what exactly the point is, yet you seemingly agree with it? This feels slimy as hell.

@APF: Absolutly. Also, RC is obv scum for reasons too secret for me to publicly explain.

how the fuck can someone be obviously scum in a way too secret to be explained.

I meant to address this earlier too. If you do have some magic way of knowing that, you'll have to tell us this "secret" reason or you won't be getting those votes.

Again. Oops.

[Clumsy]

Creates apathy for whom, the reader? Maybe. But if I get lynched today, you'll have all my thoughts logged here to look back on later.

I'm doing page by page less for you guys, more for myself honestly. I'm forcing myself to read and critically think about all of this, instead of giving somewhat empty reads without a whole lot of reasoning behind it. Me trying to do that before turned into those really bad posts that I would be highlighting.

I could do a recap every 5 pages or so, if people wanted to skip the pages and just read that?

[Clumsy]

Yeah, but I think it's helping me at least here. I'm feeling my grip is a little firmer with this. Not something I would do all the time, but it might be good here.

I think I'm still L-1? What do you mean by this comment? You'd rather lynch me before letting others get caught up and in here than deal with my spoilered, honestly optional-reading posts? =/

[Clumsy]

Then... don't read it? Hard concept, I know. I'm spoilering it so that it's not taking up that much room, and easy to scroll past for people who don't want to go through all that. I'd rather do something with all of this though, if you wouldn't mind. So just skip past it if you'd like.

And I could be Sports Center. You don't know my life.

[Clumsy]

Well let me know when you get the telepathy SUVs working, and I'll use those instead. For now though, I'll do this.

[Clumsy]

Page 1-5 recap.

APF seems really scummy in this segment. Making comments that could be read as still joking, but much more than I would think that someone would do as joking. Definitely would put my vote here for this segment.
RC is a decent runner up, with strange behavior coming out of that slot, particularly with PLs and FA.
FA's slot is sitting at null-town with me at the moment.
At first I was very meh about Roshar, looking like she was pushing too hard on something that wasn't really there, but I'm reading more as aggressive scumhunting this go around. Town.
Froot Loop is doing mostly commentary here, not much to remark on. Null.
Kain makes me feel better when I'm in a bad mood.
Not much else yet this early.

[Clumsy]

Spoiler: Page Seven.

I can find you an example of me using the very similar phrasing of a very similar thing when I was talking to Titus in a previous game.
In fact if I was scum I'd be way more likely to specifically say 'town' there if FA wasn't on my team. I insert reminders that I'm town constantly as scum.

I'm not going to read meta because A) It's easy as hell to change your own meta, and B) you've just asked me to check your meta. What makes you town or scum in another game doesn't apply to this game, and you can play against your meta in different alignments in different games. What an awful post.

FOS: RC

too now.

Exactly. Why would we look at that when that's what you -want- us to do? As scum, you'd only do that to help you. Town would do that to help you too, but that leads to it not really mattering. It's like the old riddle of "One guy lies, the other tells the truth. What do you ask to know the right path to walk down?" You can't just use a simple question (or example in this case) for that. You won't get anything one way or the other.

I'm not yelling at people that I want to yell at because I'm trying to be nice.

But people are being hella dumb rn.

How are they being dumb? For not blindly following you in everything you do, for showing even a little skepticism or suspicion towards you in a Mafia game? I'm disliking RC mafia more and more. (I know he isn't here, I'm not talking directly to him.)

I have absolutely no difficulties responding to pressure as scum.

I'm sick of dealing with this crap as town. I am town. lay off.

This -really- seems over the top as a response to all of this. Looks really really bad.

You are one of the people who, if I were scum, would have an unshakable townread on me the entire game because you can't read through any lines.
If I were scum I'd have absolutely no issue coming up with a wallpost of reasons why Roshar is scum.
FA wouldn't townread me for that and neither should you, so in the end you're wasting your time because that's not how you sort me.

Ugh.

Gonna take a break for now, but I want to at least get through page 10 tonight. Unfortunately, that'll be all once I'm going on V/LA, and I'm -not- doing this on the phone.

[Clumsy]

What the? Page six was in the preview. O.o Glad I had it saved.

Spoiler: Page Six.

VOTE: roshar

This guy is barely holding it together and we've just started. Come do this with me and watch this poor rube flail. His ISO reeks of careful scum... already, somehow.

Also clumsy's ham-handed "omg how many scum are there guyz" is the worst fake-townslip I've seen in a while. which is saying something.

maverick is town.

If it's the worst fake-townslip you've seen, why are you not voting for me here? If it's a fake-townslip, that would outright implly that I was scum looking like town, so why on Roshar (who I think is actually doing well at this point, so I don't get that) instead of me.

Also, my responses to Lowell have been like that mainly because he's just getting on my nerves.

ISO reeks of careful scum... already, somehow.

Careful, yes. I always recheck and reword my posts for coherency and try to put things in one post. Alignment indicative, no.

Really don't like the, "I'm so sure someone is scum and it's so early" kinda posts. Speculate all you want, but the utter confidence in a choice this early is either really noobish or fake.

The confusion between FA and RC is weird. I didn't know what RC was talking about because scum know each other. It's a strange interaction anyway.

Did you read it is as genuine or fake excitement when RC thought frozen slipped?

I had read it as straight incredulous reaction to actually catching a slip. Felt okay to me.

I was (erroneously) thinking that by "As in she's suspicious that I'm her buddy", RC was accusing you of actually slipping that you were wondering if he was your scumbuddy due to the scum PT not having been opened yet (when, I would have thought, the PT would have been open).

It was late when I was reading that, and it's even later now. I gotta get some sleep.

Decidedly meh. I understand, but it feels like a reach.

There's a difference between pretty sure and outright stating that people are scum and claiming people as scumpartners.

I am capable of revisiting and rethinking my reads. Apparently most people aren't.

Again, that early, I was reading that post by APF as a joke, because there was absolutely 0 substance there. Seems like a hard push and hard defense for something so.. insubstantial.

[Clumsy]

Again, to cut off time? That's not a good move Lowell. And it's going to look really bad on you. Why don't you want town to catch up with the replacements?

[Clumsy]

Like, not even to just pester you, but if you're town it's legitimately not a good move when we have people trying to catch up.

[Clumsy]

I'm getting the feeling Lowell just wants to shut me up because I called his play scummy for doing nothing but undercutting others, and now that I'm doing things, wants me quiet.

@Smith Yeah, I think I'll do that. Tried to combine the last two but formatting hates me I guess.

@Shadow I'll do that too, but the page by page is helping me make those. I don't see the point of me doing that and not posting them though. You don't have to read them, I'll still do that recaps.

[Clumsy]

Well, I didn't get to finish, and I'm on the road now. From what I have, I didn't like APF and RC. Titus hasn't been doing much after the replacement, and that seems sus. She did say it was work and sickness though. Hope you get to feeling better Titus. I'm feeling better about Rosh, and while Lowell is annoying, not sure if actually scummy. Looking into that might be good though.

I like Max for town as well. I'm starting to get a slight feeling that Froot is coasting a bit, but nothing too big. Could be playstyle?

Really need Huntress in here. And the other two replacements when they get here. Ugh.

[Clumsy]

In terms of Clumsy's actual content, I don't feel better about it. It's more him feeling bad about being a liability. That parts kinda getting to me. B/c that would be the correct town response to being falsely accused as town. But shouldn't there be some anger and bitterness too? Like 'Screw you guys, I hope it hurts when I flip town?'

The only bitterness I have is towards Lowell. I'm finding it increasingly scummy that he's trying so hard to put the nail in my coffin. In fact, I could easily see it as pushing a mislynch, and purposefully leaving himself open for a team bus for towncred. Just a theory though.

As for anger or bitterness towards anyone else: no, not at all. It's my own fault anyway. The town members of you are just trying to scum hunt, and I am looking pretty bad. So no, no bitterness.

P.S. There's no way I'll be able to stay caught up with this while on V/LA

Fixed Quote Tags
~Ircher

[Clumsy]

Eh, not feeling great about her, but I haven't made it through a lot of her stuff.

[Clumsy]

I'm back from vacation, but working all day long today. I might be able to catch up and post tonight if I don't just go to sleep after work. If not, expect something from me tomorrow night.

[Clumsy]

Huntress took a week to briefly explain one read and pop up with zero town-reads.

So taking the time to read the thread and giving my scums reads (plural, not just one) is scummy is it? Please explain that one for me. And why are you so concerned about my town reads?

because i suspect you are struggling to come up with reads and reasons for them.

skimming here, sorry.

clumsy seems like town just for writing a million posts when called out on content. Seems pretty absurd to do as scum.

I would be looking at Shadow or Huntress I think for the vote.

Why would this be absurd to do as wolf? Popping in to give enough content to diminish the momentum against you, then popping back out and returning to regularly scheduled non production, seems pretty wolf to me.

I admit Clumsy disappearing again weakens my feeling on that.

...Are you guys serious? I go on V/LA that was announced in advance, say that I'm working all day yesterday, and now you guys are using that against me? Really? -_- I'm sure there's better scumhunting to be doing here. Give me a few minutes to catch up, this just caught my eye and irritated me.

[Clumsy]

I'm on my phone so I can't quote.

I think there's evidence that that inactivity was legitimate, rather than scum avoiding saying anything in the thread. Voting for clumsy for inactivity is now illegitimate for me.

Is that the only reasoning behind the wagon on clumsy? That would seem rather odd considering they seem to be the only wagon at this point.

One quick thing before I forget to mention it. Was anyone else talking about RC while he was here? I know I said a little something about the behavior seeming weird and kind of scummy, and I thought at least one other person agreed, but I can't find it. My point is, I'm being railed for inactivity (on V/LA at that) while RC's replacement Titus has posted a grand total of 9 posts, only 5 of them actually having to do with the game. I'm not railing on you Titus, and I know you're V/LA right now, it's just odd that I'm getting singled out from it.

[Clumsy]

@Froot
The reason I say that is that a lot of your posts have seemed to be just surface questioning or answering, or making observations on the game. It doesn't really seem like you're doing much digging, you know? But by far, you are not in my idea of a good lynch today at all. It could just be your play/posting style like I said in the original post. Just putting my observations out there. Here's some examples if you would like them.

Spoiler: Quotes

I'm on my phone so I can't quote.

I think there's evidence that that inactivity was legitimate, rather than scum avoiding saying anything in the thread. Voting for clumsy for inactivity is now illegitimate for me.

Is that the only reasoning behind the wagon on clumsy? That would seem rather odd considering they seem to be the only wagon at this point.

I second Roshar's question to Huntress.

I feel good about smith's vote on Clumsy, it's not just for being a lurker. I still think Max is the better choice.

VOTE: Clumsy

L-1

Let's get things moving.

Do you mean to a lynch, or is this a pressure vote?

What is town arguing anyway?

it's a bunch of town-aligned players arguing amongst themsleves

@Clumsy - when/why did your read on Maverick change? You said he's lean town in post 561.

Sorry, just saw this, although a bit more information would be nice:

That post was about Maverick. But now I'm back to on the fence with him. It's almost exclusively gut though. Something is bothering me about him, and I can't figure it out.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and he was a lot more aggressive and talkative in each. One was town and one was scum, so it's hardly certain, but the difference here is jarring, and I suspect it's because he's been trying to keep his head down among what's been, let's just say, some aggressive personalities. He hasn't been scum reading anyone, he hasn't been getting into the fray, he's been keeping his head down as much as he can.

If he was chatty as town and scum, he could be posting less as town and scum? Interestingly, I get the impression that he's a bit non-committal in general which conflicts with the aggressive play you saw in his other games.

Also, I've had a read through his ISO and come up with these:

-_- If you would care to look at my game history, I only have 2 completed games here. Both of them Newbie games. 9 players, 2 scum. Haven't been in a 12 person game. I thought there would be 3 scum, but I wanted to make sure so I didn't have any errors in logic. The fact that you think it's a ham handed fake townslip is one of the more egotistical things I've seen in a while. Which is saying something.

I read this as a firm response to Lowell saying he faked a townslip. But APF thinks he missed an opportunity to question Lowell further (post 964)

At first, I had the impression that Maverick was just vote hopping to whatever looked good repeatedly. Going with the flow. After going back and ISOing though, it's not true. Decent vibes from this so far. Lean town.

Town read on Maverick.

@APF - you interpreted these as empty words in post 964?

My eyes are throbbing as I read the frst 8 pages.


RC is kund of floating around, and that indicative of him being scummy. But Titus I feel much better about reading.
APF is kind of naughty too. Didnt like much he did.

He has been kind of quiet, which is odd because from the games I've read, he's usually pretty talkative, right? (Not that I can say much on this. >_<)

Just for clarity, is this saying Titus is a town-lean for you?

[my edit]

As for the ISO, I did look into it, but didn't find as much as I had hoped. I like your side of it more, but I could see a scum team between you with this used as distancing. What is interesting is that while you're pushing him pretty hard, you stay near the middle of his readlist. He looks kind of passive while under pressure for you, which pings me as somewhat scummy from my (limited) experience.

Asking pisskop for a concrete read/clarification. Attempted analysis of Roshar/APF ISO. (Fair enough that this was after being pressured.)

I'm way more convinced by my own argument for lynching Max

Max, what's your interpretation of the Jake/FA fight?

Max - why are you reading the fights as TvT? Is there anything specific you can point to?

Also, can you clarify why you think Jake was close to getting lynched?

(my bold, on my post! haha)

What about this question?

I literally cheered at Clumsy's post 1037 then I saw the page one and was like "Oh nooooo.." hahaha. That being said, I don't mind it and the spoiler tags are helpful.

I agree about Lowell advocating for something anti-town.

Anyone who asks things like "is this a pressure vote, or a lynch vote" is inherently suspicious, IMO.

I was trying to clarify Roshar's comment when she voted. Why is asking that scummy?

Lowell, can you clarify this? I hadn't thought about devaluing the vote but considering Roshar's comment when she voted, I wanted to know what she meant.

RC, you're voting for Nos.

This is another of the votes on Nos:

Jake is town, farmer is town. I'm back up to 'meh' on smith.

VOTE: nos

I like this idea. Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice... something something... you DONT GET FOOLED AGAIN.

tbh, FA's is the most reasonable, whether or not it's going to stand after his run through, it looks like he's calling Nos out for changing his read a bit baselessly.

I understood that you're voting for RC because of his play in a previous game. Are you looking for scum in this game, or in the things people have done in this game?

[Clumsy]

To explain post 1184 a bit more clearly, what I mean is that I find it a little odd that I'm being pushed and not her. I can think of a few reasons off the top of my head.

-She's a replacement, so a bit more slack is given
-She has a reputation on the site, being here for a decent amount of time, while I do not
-Scum might be pushing mine for an easier mislynch. Less overextension by targeting a newer player instead of Titus.
-Titus could be part of the scum team
-The suspicion was on me before she replaced in here, kind of superseding anything there.

Of course, 1,2, and 5 are relatively harmless. I'm most worried about Number 3. If I'm lynched, I'd look into who was pushing my wagon and staying away from Titus.

P-edit: Response in next post.

[Clumsy]

@clumsy: The V/LA bit is a fair counter to my counter against Max's argument in the first bit. That said, your production bump was plausibly just busywork designed to stay alive when under fire (the V/LA bit complicates the story, of course, that's a fair point), so at the least I don't think it's fair to town read you for it, and Max's stated town read of you for it in 1077 IMO needed to be argued against.

Also I don't find your "I'd have totally self-hammered as wolf" to be credible given the scenario you were in; even as L-1, there was no intent to hammer, no claim demand (unless I missed it, and please let me know if I did). Why self hammer there when there was more than enough time in the day to make a counter wagon reasonably plausible? I actually really want an answer here, because it felt like a wolf slip to me.

That's fair enough, and yeah, it could be a last ditch effort to get out of it as caught scum. That's not what it was, but you can't just take me at my word there. I probably wouldn't town-read for it either, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't appreciative of it. It is a little strange though, I'll give you that.

Also I'm assuming "wolf" is coming from werewolf, the equivalent of scum in different versions of the game. If I'm wrong here let me know.

No, there was no intent given or claim demand, but I was definitely feeling under pressure. I was the only wagon with any traction, and it seems like a lot of people were pretty dead set on me being the lynch today. That comment wasn't made as a legitimate defense, just remarking on the benefits of cutting off the day for scum, not allowing the replacements to get caught up properly and launching into night with no more discussion. I requested specifically that we have more time for that. That's why I was pushing so hard against Lowell for wanting a hammer, because cutting off that time for the replacements is a strong scum benefit.

[Clumsy]

Now that you call out the Maxous thing, it does seem like he's trying to stay near the fence with me. Push me too hard, and when I flip town he looks bad. But town read me too hard, and my lynch might not happen.

[Clumsy]

Ugh...

I was feeling better about Maxous when he was the first to unvote me and give time for everything + time for me to talk, but this does make it look a bit worse... but if it's going to be between me and him, even if I were 99% sure he was town... I'm 100% sure I am. So if that's the only other wagon, then yeah.

[Clumsy]

VOTE: Maxous

[Clumsy]

Ugh...

I was feeling better about Maxous when he was the first to unvote me and give time for everything + time for me to talk, but this does make it look a bit worse... but if it's going to be between me and him, even if I were 99% sure he was town... I'm 100% sure I am. So if that's the only other wagon, then yeah.

I'd also highlight this one specifically. "I'm voting max to survive but I definitely do NOT have any kind of opinion about his alignment". If that's a town process, I really struggle to see it.

This is a serious misrep. I explain how I feel directly in the post you quoted. I don't have NO opinion on Maxous. I was town reading Maxous originally. Recent events (that YOU pointed out) are starting to make me doubt that read. I know I'm town. I -THOUGHT- he was town. If I let myself die, that's 100% a town death. If we vote him, that's less than 100% a town death. The odds of a good outcome are better if I hang him than let myself get hung, because I know my alignment and I don't know his.

I don't know if it's normal for your games to have townies throwing themselves onto the campfire willingly, but trying to survive is not a scumtell in my book.

You're starting to worry my Mhs.

[Clumsy]

Ugh...

I was feeling better about Maxous when he was the first to unvote me and give time for everything + time for me to talk, but this does make it look a bit worse... but if it's going to be between me and him, even if I were 99% sure he was town... I'm 100% sure I am. So if that's the only other wagon, then yeah.

I'd also highlight this one specifically. "I'm voting max to survive but I definitely do NOT have any kind of opinion about his alignment". If that's a town process, I really struggle to see it.

That's a bit of a misrep there. Clumsy has given his opinion on that slot a few times.


Anyone up for a flashwagon on Roshar? Or even Lowell? I'd really prefer to lynch them to either of the current wagons.

More than a bit, but meh. About the flashwagon: I would definitely be okay with Lowell. I'm in the middle with Roshar. HOWEVER. We only have 11 hours. There's no guarantee that they would be on in those 11 hours, and if we don't get a claim, I would rather not lynch them. Without a claim called, I would rather be the one hung. (That said, that's a possible out for them so... XP)

[Clumsy]

{Johnny (Pisskop, FA),}
{Froot}
{FA_Q2 (Mav), Maxous (Jake), Nos, Shaddow}
{Titus (RC), Huntress (Kain, Jeanne), Roshar, Smith}
{APF, Lowell}

[Clumsy]

That's a good question actually.

[Clumsy]

I suppose add Froot to the people I think are town.

@Froot
The reason I say that is that a lot of your posts have seemed to be just surface questioning or answering, or making observations on the game. It doesn't really seem like you're doing much digging, you know?

But by far, you are not in my idea of a good lynch today at all. It could just be your play/posting style like I said in the original post. Just putting my observations out there.

Here's some examples if you would like them.

Spoiler: Quotes

I'm on my phone so I can't quote.

I think there's evidence that that inactivity was legitimate, rather than scum avoiding saying anything in the thread. Voting for clumsy for inactivity is now illegitimate for me.

Is that the only reasoning behind the wagon on clumsy? That would seem rather odd considering they seem to be the only wagon at this point.

I second Roshar's question to Huntress.

I feel good about smith's vote on Clumsy, it's not just for being a lurker. I still think Max is the better choice.

VOTE: Clumsy

L-1

Let's get things moving.

Do you mean to a lynch, or is this a pressure vote?

What is town arguing anyway?

it's a bunch of town-aligned players arguing amongst themsleves

@Clumsy - when/why did your read on Maverick change? You said he's lean town in post 561.

Sorry, just saw this, although a bit more information would be nice:

That post was about Maverick. But now I'm back to on the fence with him. It's almost exclusively gut though. Something is bothering me about him, and I can't figure it out.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and he was a lot more aggressive and talkative in each. One was town and one was scum, so it's hardly certain, but the difference here is jarring, and I suspect it's because he's been trying to keep his head down among what's been, let's just say, some aggressive personalities. He hasn't been scum reading anyone, he hasn't been getting into the fray, he's been keeping his head down as much as he can.

If he was chatty as town and scum, he could be posting less as town and scum? Interestingly, I get the impression that he's a bit non-committal in general which conflicts with the aggressive play you saw in his other games.

Also, I've had a read through his ISO and come up with these:

-_- If you would care to look at my game history, I only have 2 completed games here. Both of them Newbie games. 9 players, 2 scum. Haven't been in a 12 person game. I thought there would be 3 scum, but I wanted to make sure so I didn't have any errors in logic. The fact that you think it's a ham handed fake townslip is one of the more egotistical things I've seen in a while. Which is saying something.

I read this as a firm response to Lowell saying he faked a townslip. But APF thinks he missed an opportunity to question Lowell further (post 964)

At first, I had the impression that Maverick was just vote hopping to whatever looked good repeatedly. Going with the flow. After going back and ISOing though, it's not true. Decent vibes from this so far. Lean town.

Town read on Maverick.

@APF - you interpreted these as empty words in post 964?

My eyes are throbbing as I read the frst 8 pages.


RC is kund of floating around, and that indicative of him being scummy. But Titus I feel much better about reading.
APF is kind of naughty too. Didnt like much he did.

He has been kind of quiet, which is odd because from the games I've read, he's usually pretty talkative, right? (Not that I can say much on this. >_<)

Just for clarity, is this saying Titus is a town-lean for you?

[my edit]

As for the ISO, I did look into it, but didn't find as much as I had hoped. I like your side of it more, but I could see a scum team between you with this used as distancing. What is interesting is that while you're pushing him pretty hard, you stay near the middle of his readlist. He looks kind of passive while under pressure for you, which pings me as somewhat scummy from my (limited) experience.

Asking pisskop for a concrete read/clarification. Attempted analysis of Roshar/APF ISO. (Fair enough that this was after being pressured.)

I'm way more convinced by my own argument for lynching Max

Max, what's your interpretation of the Jake/FA fight?

Max - why are you reading the fights as TvT? Is there anything specific you can point to?

Also, can you clarify why you think Jake was close to getting lynched?

(my bold, on my post! haha)

What about this question?

I literally cheered at Clumsy's post 1037 then I saw the page one and was like "Oh nooooo.." hahaha. That being said, I don't mind it and the spoiler tags are helpful.

I agree about Lowell advocating for something anti-town.

Anyone who asks things like "is this a pressure vote, or a lynch vote" is inherently suspicious, IMO.

I was trying to clarify Roshar's comment when she voted. Why is asking that scummy?

Lowell, can you clarify this? I hadn't thought about devaluing the vote but considering Roshar's comment when she voted, I wanted to know what she meant.

RC, you're voting for Nos.

This is another of the votes on Nos:

Jake is town, farmer is town. I'm back up to 'meh' on smith.

VOTE: nos

I like this idea. Fool me once, shame on me. Fool me twice... something something... you DONT GET FOOLED AGAIN.

tbh, FA's is the most reasonable, whether or not it's going to stand after his run through, it looks like he's calling Nos out for changing his read a bit baselessly.

I understood that you're voting for RC because of his play in a previous game. Are you looking for scum in this game, or in the things people have done in this game?

Started off as town. Coasting discussion came up. I said it wasn't anything huge, just an observation. Therefore she is in lean town.

[Clumsy]

As for yours, I've been going back and forth with you. Sometimes it feels like good scum hunting from you, other times it feels like you're just trying to find something. In that group, you're the most towards null.

[Clumsy]

^

And there's not much time to -safely- switch to someone else, unless they get on here.

[Clumsy]

I'm willing on those, but we need Johnny, Shaddow, and the others in here.

[Clumsy]

Oh wow, clumsy. Just wow.

For someone who gave a town read in

At first I was very meh about Roshar, looking like she was pushing too hard on something that wasn't really there, but I'm reading more as aggressive scumhunting this go around. Town.

And yes, you've stated your not sure and you keep going back and forth, but how did you jump to wanting to lynch me?

Your reads hold no water.

You left out the post number and brought that out of context. That was post number 1053, 200 posts ago, and on top of that, that post was my page 1-5 recap. Now you're misrepping me.

Also, I've given a town read to Max as well.

Well, I didn't get to finish, and I'm on the road now. From what I have, I didn't like APF and RC. Titus hasn't been doing much after the replacement, and that seems sus. She did say it was work and sickness though. Hope you get to feeling better Titus. I'm feeling better about Rosh, and while Lowell is annoying, not sure if actually scummy. Looking into that might be good though.

I like Max for town as well. I'm starting to get a slight feeling that Froot is coasting a bit, but nothing too big. Could be playstyle?

Really need Huntress in here. And the other two replacements when they get here. Ugh.

But you only call out the one about you. You're fine with the Max lynch.


As for why I would lynch you today:

Ugh...

I was feeling better about Maxous when he was the first to unvote me and give time for everything + time for me to talk, but this does make it look a bit worse... but if it's going to be between me and him, even if I were 99% sure he was town... I'm 100% sure I am. So if that's the only other wagon, then yeah.

I'd also highlight this one specifically. "I'm voting max to survive but I definitely do NOT have any kind of opinion about his alignment". If that's a town process, I really struggle to see it.

This is a serious misrep. I explain how I feel directly in the post you quoted. I don't have NO opinion on Maxous. I was town reading Maxous originally. Recent events (that YOU pointed out) are starting to make me doubt that read. I know I'm town. I -THOUGHT- he was town. If I let myself die, that's 100% a town death. If we vote him, that's less than 100% a town death. The odds of a good outcome are better if I hang him than let myself get hung, because I know my alignment and I don't know his.

I don't know if it's normal for your games to have townies throwing themselves onto the campfire willingly, but trying to survive is not a scumtell in my book.

You're starting to worry my Mhs.

{Johnny (Pisskop, FA),}
{Froot}
{FA_Q2 (Mav), Maxous (Jake), Nos, Shaddow}
{Titus (RC), Huntress (Kain, Jeanne), Roshar, Smith}
{APF, Lowell}

Ugh...

I was feeling better about Maxous when he was the first to unvote me and give time for everything + time for me to talk, but this does make it look a bit worse... but if it's going to be between me and him, even if I were 99% sure he was town... I'm 100% sure I am. So if that's the only other wagon, then yeah.

Ugh...

but if it's going to be between me and

her

, even if I were 99% sure

she

was town... I'm 100% sure I am.

On my read list, you're lower than Maxous is. But you didn't have a problem with me voting for him, only for you? In fact, you encouraged the wagon on Maxous.

Clumsy, willing to jump on the Maxous wagon? (you know with him finding you scummy for inactivity with you being on V/LA or what not)

Also the "Oh wow. Just wow." Seems forced as well. Basically, it looks like you're trying to discredit me with faulty logic, ensure the mislynch, and make sure that you don't get hung.

[Clumsy]

To make it clear, this seems really scummy for me, and I'd be just fine with a lynch here.

[Clumsy]

And I'm not on the line now? How exactly am I being inconsistant? I stated that I'm going back and forth with you. I put you in the lean scum pile. Someone expressed interest in a possible wagon for you. I said I'd be willing to go for that. If you're calling my reads inconsistent, sorry, how dare I have a change of opinion on someone.

[Clumsy]

Willing does not mean that you are my #1 read. Have you never hung someone even if they weren't your scummiest pick? Hell, I was -willing- to hang Maxous, and I stated that I thought he was more town than you. I've done just as much back and forth with Max, but you only turn on the heat of pointing any of this out when it's YOU that's being looked at.

How are those two posts conflicting?

{town}
{lean town}
{null}
<--- If I were to add one more column, I would have put you here.
{lean scum} <--- You were here
{scum}

How is that not taking a stance?

[Clumsy]

I'm a vanilla towny. Hammer away Rosh.

[Clumsy]

While it's still twilight, I would like to point out just how many people have gone silent this last day or so. Froot let us know, not sure of any other V/LAs, but it is very quiet except for a few people.

[Clumsy]

Last second thoughts, Froot seems really town to me, FA_Q2 has been absent, Smith isn't here, Shaddow never revoted anyone. Johnny looks good, as his predecessors looked good. I would look into Titus and Huntress a bit more, pull them into the game.